Auto-granting Sized based feats to monsters

[PraxisVetli]

So, If all Huge or bigger monsters automatically had feats like Crush, Blowhard, Stamp, Dustcloud or Wingstorm (when appropriate), would that significantly change gameplay?
If feats of that type stopped being Feats, and were considered traits of that size, would it change a lot?
I personally feel it would add to combat, but I favor the blood and grit type play.
What's the playground's opinion?

My gf's first campaign will be starting soon, and I had half suggested this as a new mechanic, but we're unsure whether it's too much, or perhaps not even worth it.
Some details, should they matter. The campaign is Gestalt no magic, so most of the players specialize in facesmack, so I thought it would help give creatures an advantage.
Otherwise, really regardless of the Creature(s), against a 6 person party, 3 of which are looking to be chargers, raw damage is going to solve a lot of our problems. Will this help even things out? Or is there more/less that should be done?

[Urpriest]

I feel like actual monsters have enough HD feats (and not enough to spend them on) that it doesn't matter, and it would be unbalanced for every caster able to boost their size to get access to a heaping helping of extra feats.

[Psyren]

I do find it odd that you need to spend a feat on something like Awesome Blow or Crush, something that should take little to no training at all for a sufficiently large monster.

I agree that spellcasters should have to spend a feat on such techniques, which can be rationalized as the unfamiliarity of the larger body being disorienting for them unless they consciously train to use it in this way.

[PraxisVetli]

I feel like actual monsters have enough HD feats (and not enough to spend them on) that it doesn't matter, and it would be unbalanced for every caster able to boost their size to get access to a heaping helping of extra feats.


I do find it odd that you need to spend a feat on something like Awesome Blow or Crush, something that should take little to no training at all for a sufficiently large monster.

I agree that spellcasters should have to spend a feat on such techniques, which can be rationalized as the unfamiliarity of the larger body being disorienting for them unless they consciously train to use it in this way.

There aren't any casters, as I mentioned in the OP. This also would be a campaign specific rule, not a general houserule.
It would only apply to actual monsters, too.
Wu Jen's Giant Size doesn't come with 10 feats lol, I agree, that would definitely be unnecessary.

[GameSpawn]

Most actual monsters, as written in the Monster Manual (or wherever they happen to appear), spend their feats on things like toughness, alertness, dodge etc. You could just replace these feats (in most cases) and get close to the same effect as giving the monsters bonus feats.

[Urpriest]

There aren't any casters, as I mentioned in the OP. This also would be a campaign specific rule, not a general houserule.
It would only apply to actual monsters, too.
Wu Jen's Giant Size doesn't come with 10 feats lol, I agree, that would definitely be unnecessary.

Everything's a monster, remember.

Since it's a magicless game, what sorts of houserules are you using to adjust character scaling? If they're HD-based, big monsters may not need the help.

[Psyren]

There aren't any casters, as I mentioned in the OP. This also would be a campaign specific rule, not a general houserule.
It would only apply to actual monsters, too.
Wu Jen's Giant Size doesn't come with 10 feats lol, I agree, that would definitely be unnecessary.

Wu Jens aren't the only ones who can grow several size categories. For the others it generally requires changing shape, but Druids can easily become Huge+ too for example. That's why you have to be careful how you write this.

[PraxisVetli]

Everything's a monster, remember.

Since it's a magicless game, what sorts of houserules are you using to adjust character scaling? If they're HD-based, big monsters may not need the help.
Well. What scaling is necessary? Take the casting from a dragon, and it becomes a giant smart wyvern. It gets hitpoints and feats. So do we. Seems pretty scaled. If anything, we're better off, because it gained feats and HD, we gained feats, HD, and class features.

Wu Jens aren't the only ones who can grow several size categories. For the others it generally requires changing shape, but Druids can easily become Huge+ too for example. That's why you have to be careful how you write this.
The Wu Jen was obviously an example. I feel like this is needless nitpicking. If you aren't the DM, the answer's no.
Aside, for the third time, THERE IS NO MAGIC. So despite anyway you might find for Wu Jen and wizards and clerics and psions and druids to break this rule, none of it has any relevance whatsoever.


I feel like this is a lot of dodging the actual question.
I feel, that because big creatures are big, when they smack you, it should move you.
You don't get to bounce Godzilla's kick off your pecs. Instead, you should fly backwards.
Is this crazy?

[Killer Angel]

Give ONE additional feat to each huge (or larger) monster.
If you want other ones, let the monsters pay for them.

[Urpriest]

Well. What scaling is necessary? Take the casting from a dragon, and it becomes a giant smart wyvern. It gets hitpoints and feats. So do we. Seems pretty scaled. If anything, we're better off, because it gained feats and HD, we gained feats, HD, and class features.

Scaling for monsters is probably not necessary, except for consistency's sake. What I was referring to was scaling for PCs.

Since you're running a magic-less game, presumably you don't have any magic items. Normally, attack bonus scales primarily with level through BAB, while AC scales primarily through magic armor and magic boosts to natural armor and deflection. If you want to have a balanced magic-less game, you need to introduce some sort of AC bonus that scales with level.

The problem is, depending on how you designed that, it would probably scale with monster HD, so high-HD monsters would end up disproportionately well-defended. Depending on how many other types of scaling you implement (ability score boosts to counteract the lack of magic items that boost ability scores, some small increase in attack bonus to offset the lack of magic weapons, etc.) this could be exacerbated.

Of course, there are ways around this problem. If you base your scaling on what WBL would have been in a magic-heavy game, then monsters would presumably scale based on their treasure instead and this wouldn't be much of an issue. Alternatively, if you introduce mundane equivalents to common magic items (masterwork +5 armor, or the like), and keep WBL as normal, that would also avoid this kind of problem.

Basically, depending on the houserules that you chose when you decided to run a no-magic game, different sorts of balance issues might show up in this idea. It would be useful to know what sort of system you built, so we can give you better advice.

[Vaz]

Praxis, there is no need to get so ratty. No magic very rarely means no magic, and when you are running gestalt, you are likely to be struggling to find interesting things to do othee than 'hit it harder'.

No magic means you are limited to fighter in core, maybe rogue if you ignore UMD, monk if you ignore its supernstural abilities. Barbarian loses its pounce ability. All of those are ineffectual due to not having magical equipment. Maybe Knights from PHB2, and possible CW Samurai and swashbuckler (without arcane stunt). Ninja has definstely gone.

No Swordsage or Crusader, Dragon Shamans are gone, warblade possibly thanks to its magical-like abilities.

The interesting things in 'mundanes' are gone because they are magical in nature.

I have tried to run one, and honestly? It wasn't worth it. So much so that i changed the plot to include the arrival of magic in the world via comet, which the players quickly had their characters killed off (by their request) and taking more magical characters, even if some of them were more overt about it than others.

When someone has a 6th level character with a Masterwork Serrated Greatsword, and that that is the most powerful bit of loot they will ever get is a bit disheartening. Sure, they have fantastic 'white' loot, but they want to hit with some nice 'affixes' - green loot, going on to blue, then purple, then gold, maybe getting artifact quality equipment.

In a 4 person party, even if you are going up against none magic using opponents, melee's few tactical options means that it will lead to all players optimizing one aspect -- trip, hp damage, and erm, not much else. To keep it challenging, demagic'd opponents are going to be more powerful than the party, or more numerous, or otherwise be better than the party. Spellcasting is that leveller.

I'd recommend against running a non magic party, especially when every equal CR encounter the party faces means bed rest for 2 weeks to restore the HP damage done to them because there is no healing spells.

[PraxisVetli]

Scaling for monsters is probably not necessary, except for consistency's sake. What I was referring to was scaling for PCs.

Since you're running a magic-less game, presumably you don't have any magic items. Normally, attack bonus scales primarily with level through BAB, while AC scales primarily through magic armor and magic boosts to natural armor and deflection. If you want to have a balanced magic-less game, you need to introduce some sort of AC bonus that scales with level.

The problem is, depending on how you designed that, it would probably scale with monster HD, so high-HD monsters would end up disproportionately well-defended. Depending on how many other types of scaling you implement (ability score boosts to counteract the lack of magic items that boost ability scores, some small increase in attack bonus to offset the lack of magic weapons, etc.) this could be exacerbated.

Of course, there are ways around this problem. If you base your scaling on what WBL would have been in a magic-heavy game, then monsters would presumably scale based on their treasure instead and this wouldn't be much of an issue. Alternatively, if you introduce mundane equivalents to common magic items (masterwork +5 armor, or the like), and keep WBL as normal, that would also avoid this kind of problem.

Basically, depending on the houserules that you chose when you decided to run a no-magic game, different sorts of balance issues might show up in this idea. It would be useful to know what sort of system you built, so we can give you better advice.
One thing that will balance the monsters against the party is that there are 6 of us.

Praxis, there is no need to get so ratty. No magic very rarely means no magic, and when you are running gestalt, you are likely to be struggling to find interesting things to do othee than 'hit it harder'.

No magic means you are limited to fighter in core, maybe rogue if you ignore UMD, monk if you ignore its supernstural abilities. Barbarian loses its pounce ability. All of those are ineffectual due to not having magical equipment. Maybe Knights from PHB2, and possible CW Samurai and swashbuckler (without arcane stunt). Ninja has definstely gone.

No Swordsage or Crusader, Dragon Shamans are gone, warblade possibly thanks to its magical-like abilities.

The interesting things in 'mundanes' are gone because they are magical in nature.

I have tried to run one, and honestly? It wasn't worth it. So much so that i changed the plot to include the arrival of magic in the world via comet, which the players quickly had their characters killed off (by their request) and taking more magical characters, even if some of them were more overt about it than others.

When someone has a 6th level character with a Masterwork Serrated Greatsword, and that that is the most powerful bit of loot they will ever get is a bit disheartening. Sure, they have fantastic 'white' loot, but they want to hit with some nice 'affixes' - green loot, going on to blue, then purple, then gold, maybe getting artifact quality equipment.

In a 4 person party, even if you are going up against none magic using opponents, melee's few tactical options means that it will lead to all players optimizing one aspect -- trip, hp damage, and erm, not much else. To keep it challenging, demagic'd opponents are going to be more powerful than the party, or more numerous, or otherwise be better than the party. Spellcasting is that leveller.

I'd recommend against running a non magic party, especially when every equal CR encounter the party faces means bed rest for 2 weeks to restore the HP damage done to them because there is no healing spells.

Well, regardless of how magic-less I meant by magic-less, Druids should still have no say in the matter.
Now, the point has been made, and rightly so, that I should define "no magic."
The martial adepts are all in play, and if someone wanted to ninja, I imagine it would fly. The no magic is not limiting us all to Ex abilities, it means no casting whatsoever.
WBL, while I'm not entirely sure how its being managed, may be altered in some way. I know that we will likely be getting less than normal, due to the general nature of the setting.
Things like +6 Cha cloaks exist, though the question inevitably will arise as to where they came from, I think its just a general agreement between players and DM not to ask. They just are. (a fact of which my Bardsader is grateful)
So.
What sort of houserules, is a question I can, for the most part, answer. If there are additional questions I fail to answer, by all means, ask, though I can't promise I'll know.
The campaign is based off an anime, so when certain things sound weird, if you factor that, it might make more sense. The anime is Claymore, if that helps at all.
There are no casters in any form. The more magicy disciplines, such a Desert Wind, are being refluffed to heat damage from swing speed or the like. The 9th lvl is refluffed as a bajillion swings at once.
Certain prestige classes are under consideration under the DM, this means the more magicy but non castery such as Telflammar (I know they get spells, but lets be honest, is that really why anyone takes that class?)
The majority of weapon enchantments are kosher, the energy based ones generally are not, to the best of my knowledge. So a +2 Collision sword is certainly viable loot, a +6 Flaming Blast, however, is not.
Are there any other questions I didn't answer?

[Urpriest]

Ah ok, no-magic but with magic items generally works at least reasonably well, especially with ToB in play.

In that case...

Let's think about all the feats this involves:

Core Monster Manual:

Awesome Blow: Large+, usually has several prereq feats. Standard for a minor knockback.
Snatch: Huge+, free improved grab for everyone.

Draconomicon:

Improved Snatch/Multisnatch/Snatch And Swallow/Tail Constrict: Upgrades to Snatch, might not be included in your setup.
Large and In Charge: Large+, AOOs force foes away.
Shockwave: Large+, Dragon and PA required. Full-round for an AOE knockdown.
Tempest Breath: Large+, breath weapon and PA required. Metabreath, breath weapon has wind effects.
Wingstorm: Large+, feat prereqs, special full-round for wind effects.

Races of Stone:

Knockback: Large+, same feats as Awesome Blow, free bull rush on every hit.
Rock Hurling: Large+, leads to a whole tree involving flinging allies and enemies.

Savage Species:

Area Attack: Huge+, requires PA. Swing a big object at an area, doesn't do much.
Blowhard: Huge+, requires PA. Standard to create a wind effect.
Crush: Huge+, gain a Dragon-like Crush attack.
Dust Cloud: Huge+, make a dust cloud as a standard, high prereqs.
Mighty Roar: Large+, animal or magical beast. 1/day make a scary roar. Start of a short chain.
Stamp: Huge+, trample. Full-round for an AOE knockdown.

So, various thoughts:

First, are you going to still require the other prereqs? Lots of these feats require Power Attack, a few require Improved Bull Rush. I'm going to assume you're keeping those requirements.

Second, I definitely wouldn't include anything that's part of a chain. Even if you can justify the first feat, the others would just pile on, and that defeats the idea that the chain is supposed to represent increased skill. So no Snatch or Rock Hurling (which I'd also disallow because they poach iconic abilities from other monsters, and you should at least pay a cost for that) and no Mighty Roar.

Third, like I said, some abilities are part of existing monsters, and I feel like that's somewhat intentional. It makes sense for the big Dragons to have crush attacks, that's something Dragons in fiction do, making it something everything that big does kind of weakens the uniqueness of the move, and the specialness of Dragons. So I wouldn't include Crush.

Fourth, some of the Large+ stuff seems kind of excessive for automatic abilities. Ogres really aren't that big, it would be a bit cartoonish for them to constantly be knocking people around (Knockback/Awesome Blow), or for horse-sized Dragons to make shockwaves with everything they do (Tempest Breath/Wingstorm/Shockwave). I wouldn't necessarily cut these out altogether, but I would probably not make them appear automatically until Huge size. Large And In Charge isn't cartoonish per se, but it would be kind of annoying to your three chargers for it to be on every single Large thing out there, so I probably would restrict it to Huge+ as well.

Fifth, there's a fair amount of redundancy here. Awesome Blow and Knockback do basically the same thing, and there are a bunch of "spend an action, make a wind effect" and "slam the ground, make a shockwave" abilities, when there really only has to be one of each.

So basically, what I would do: give Large and In Charge, one of the windy feats, and one of the shockwave feats automatically to Huge creatures, maybe Knockback, but honestly that one feels like it deserves an actual feat. And don't expect the wind or shockwave to come up too much: even with 6 players, AOE seems like an inferior strategy, unless they have lots of pets.

[PraxisVetli]

Ah ok, no-magic but with magic items generally works at least reasonably well, especially with ToB in play.
A fair assessment, yes.


In that case...

Let's think about all the feats this involves:

Core Monster Manual:

Awesome Blow: Large+, usually has several prereq feats. Standard for a minor knockback.
Snatch: Huge+, free improved grab for everyone.

Draconomicon:

Improved Snatch/Multisnatch/Snatch And Swallow/Tail Constrict: Upgrades to Snatch, might not be included in your setup.
Large and In Charge: Large+, AOOs force foes away.
Shockwave: Large+, Dragon and PA required. Full-round for an AOE knockdown.
Tempest Breath: Large+, breath weapon and PA required. Metabreath, breath weapon has wind effects.
Wingstorm: Large+, feat prereqs, special full-round for wind effects.

Races of Stone:

Knockback: Large+, same feats as Awesome Blow, free bull rush on every hit.
Rock Hurling: Large+, leads to a whole tree involving flinging allies and enemies.

Savage Species:

Area Attack: Huge+, requires PA. Swing a big object at an area, doesn't do much.
Blowhard: Huge+, requires PA. Standard to create a wind effect.
Crush: Huge+, gain a Dragon-like Crush attack.
Dust Cloud: Huge+, make a dust cloud as a standard, high prereqs.
Mighty Roar: Large+, animal or magical beast. 1/day make a scary roar. Start of a short chain.
Stamp: Huge+, trample. Full-round for an AOE knockdown.
Woah. That, is a list of lists.


So, various thoughts:

First, are you going to still require the other prereqs? Lots of these feats require Power Attack, a few require Improved Bull Rush. I'm going to assume you're keeping those requirements.

Second, I definitely wouldn't include anything that's part of a chain. Even if you can justify the first feat, the others would just pile on, and that defeats the idea that the chain is supposed to represent increased skill. So no Snatch or Rock Hurling (which I'd also disallow because they poach iconic abilities from other monsters, and you should at least pay a cost for that) and no Mighty Roar.
Yes, to prereqs, and I think that if the first feat is part of a chain, then actual feats should be spent on said chain, yes. Though since Power Attack is a prereq to freakin everything, I don't count that, personally. The DM may or may not have a different opinion on the matter.


Third, like I said, some abilities are part of existing monsters, and I feel like that's somewhat intentional. It makes sense for the big Dragons to have crush attacks, that's something Dragons in fiction do, making it something everything that big does kind of weakens the uniqueness of the move, and the specialness of Dragons. So I wouldn't include Crush.
I see your point there, but the campaign in question will likely not include Dragons, so Crush might be involved.


Fourth, some of the Large+ stuff seems kind of excessive for automatic abilities. Ogres really aren't that big, it would be a bit cartoonish for them to constantly be knocking people around (Knockback/Awesome Blow), or for horse-sized Dragons to make shockwaves with everything they do (Tempest Breath/Wingstorm/Shockwave). I wouldn't necessarily cut these out altogether, but I would probably not make them appear automatically until Huge size. Large And In Charge isn't cartoonish per se, but it would be kind of annoying to your three chargers for it to be on every single Large thing out there, so I probably would restrict it to Huge+ as well.
I absolutely agree. However, why would Large and in Charge be a problem? I see that moving back to re-charge is a thing, but you only technically need 10' to charge, and something Huge, we'd still be within reach, not provoking. Or am I missing something here?


Fifth, there's a fair amount of redundancy here. Awesome Blow and Knockback do basically the same thing, and there are a bunch of "spend an action, make a wind effect" and "slam the ground, make a shockwave" abilities, when there really only has to be one of each.
There definitely are a bunch of repetitions.


So basically, what I would do: give Large and In Charge, one of the windy feats, and one of the shockwave feats automatically to Huge creatures, maybe Knockback, but honestly that one feels like it deserves an actual feat. And don't expect the wind or shockwave to come up too much: even with 6 players, AOE seems like an inferior strategy, unless they have lots of pets.
Well, with flying being something we can't really deal with, other than climbing up things and jumping (cuz that's a secure idea) or chucking rocks at it, the Windstorm type feats might actually come up, as for winged creatures, it's a pretty secure technique.
Do you think that being Gargantuan or even Colossal would warrant additional feats than Huge? Or should Huge+ just be a package deal?

[Urpriest]

A fair assessment, yes.

Woah. That, is a list of lists.

Yes, to prereqs, and I think that if the first feat is part of a chain, then actual feats should be spent on said chain, yes. Though since Power Attack is a prereq to freakin everything, I don't count that, personally. The DM may or may not have a different opinion on the matter.


I wasn't thinking of it as part of the chain category, but I do think you shouldn't skip the prereq when it comes up.



I see your point there, but the campaign in question will likely not include Dragons, so Crush might be involved.

I guess that's valid. I still think it's the kind of thing that should cost a feat, though.



I absolutely agree. However, why would Large and in Charge be a problem? I see that moving back to re-charge is a thing, but you only technically need 10' to charge, and something Huge, we'd still be within reach, not provoking. Or am I missing something here?

If the character tries to charge, they'll provoke, since they have to leave the outer squares of the Large creature's reach, unless they've got some ability that stops them from provoking. They provoke, they get pushed back and can't move anymore due to Large and in Charge, so their turn ends. If they can't beat the Strength check or avoid the AOO they won't be able to complete a charge.



There definitely are a bunch of repetitions.

Well, with flying being something we can't really deal with, other than climbing up things and jumping (cuz that's a secure idea) or chucking rocks at it, the Windstorm type feats might actually come up, as for winged creatures, it's a pretty secure technique.
Do you think that being Gargantuan or even Colossal would warrant additional feats than Huge? Or should Huge+ just be a package deal?

Maybe there's justification for some upgrades, Awesome Blow to Knockback for instance. But in general a Gargantuan creature would have so many feats and so little to spend them on that it shouldn't matter, you'll be able to buy as many of these feats as seems suitable.

[PraxisVetli]

I wasn't thinking of it as part of the chain category, but I do think you shouldn't skip the prereq when it comes up.

I guess that's valid. I still think it's the kind of thing that should cost a feat, though.

If the character tries to charge, they'll provoke, since they have to leave the outer squares of the Large creature's reach, unless they've got some ability that stops them from provoking. They provoke, they get pushed back and can't move anymore due to Large and in Charge, so their turn ends. If they can't beat the Strength check or avoid the AOO they won't be able to complete a charge.

Maybe there's justification for some upgrades, Awesome Blow to Knockback for instance. But in general a Gargantuan creature would have so many feats and so little to spend them on that it shouldn't matter, you'll be able to buy as many of these feats as seems suitable.

Well, I would definitely make creatures take Power Attack, and I know the DM would agree on that one.
Well, that ones up to the DM. Though I will definitely state my opinion and yours, and add that you're more knowledgeable on the topic.
I see, I misunderstood how that worked. Large and in Charge could definitely be an issue.
Sure, same feat quantity, but upgrade quality. And touche, anything Gargantuan is gonna have the HD to back it up.
Another question.
As was mentioned by Killer Angel, a lot of creatures have stupid feats. Is adding these these size traits AND switching out the feats excessive? Because Alertness is dumb.
Edit: And Toughness is even MORE dumb.