Can you Rudisplork at D&D 2: Sithsnape and the Orcus of Secret House Rules [Archive]

jedipotter

2014-07-13, 03:44 PM

So, Jedipotter: Given your bizarre houserules, how does any spellcaster survive apprenticeship. much less make it to level 10 without Death By Orcus/their own spells?

I lot don't, that is kinda the point....

Can I go on to ask /how/ exactly they stop problem players?

Problem Players like easy rules that are all good for them, like the default 3X/P rules. Take them away, and the Problem Player does not want to play. That stops them cold. And if they do play, they just want to sit back and be a problem. Take that away from them, and they can't make problems.

What is eating up time anyway?

A great example from another thread: There are four players ready to enter the lair of the lich. Player five, Pete, is "Ok, I would like to officaly stop the game, make the other four players and the DM is around while I serch for spell components.''

Divide by Zero

2014-07-13, 03:48 PM

Problem Players like easy rules that are all good for them, like the default 3X/P rules. Take them away, and the Problem Player does not want to play. That stops them cold. And if they do play, they just want to sit back and be a problem. Take that away from them, and they can't make problems.

But the thing you haven't really addressed, at least that I could see, is that some of your rules CREATE more problems by making it possible for their actions to backfire on the entire party.

Kazudo

2014-07-13, 03:49 PM

A great example from another thread: There are four players ready to enter the lair of the lich. Player five, Pete, is "Ok, I would like to officaly stop the game, make the other four players and the DM is around while I serch for spell components.''

So at this point the DM decides what's more important. His tenacity at enforcing the spell component system while forbidding the spell component pouch to work as RAW says, or the time taken for this player to have his class features be useful.

Vhaidara

2014-07-13, 03:53 PM

I lot don't, that is kinda the point....

Wait, don't you run Forgotten Realms? And you claim mages can't get past level 10? lolwut?

Problem Players like easy rules that are all good for them, like the default 3X/P rules. Take them away, and the Problem Player does not want to play. That stops them cold. And if they do play, they just want to sit back and be a problem. Take that away from them, and they can't make problems.

Except they can be a problem. They just fire at will at enemies with SR, waiting for the spell to refract onto their own team. They summon as they wish, away from themsleves, waiting to get a hostile summon.

A great example from another thread: There are four players ready to enter the lair of the lich. Player five, Pete, is "Ok, I would like to officaly stop the game, make the other four players and the DM is around while I serch for spell components.''

So he gather components off camera. Because the party isn't going to want to go in when their fire support is out of components. After all, that means you might as well just tell that player to not show up to the session, since they can't do anything. Or, you know, they'll use spells without components.

Urpriest

2014-07-13, 03:54 PM

Problem Players like easy rules that are all good for them, like the default 3X/P rules. Take them away, and the Problem Player does not want to play. That stops them cold. And if they do play, they just want to sit back and be a problem. Take that away from them, and they can't make problems.

See, most of the problem players I've met prefer more punitive rules, or even assume the rules to be more punitive than they actually are. This is especially true for those problem players who are DMing.

Nilehus

2014-07-13, 03:54 PM

So at this point the DM decides what's more important. His tenacity at enforcing the spell component system while forbidding the spell component pouch to work as RAW says, or the time taken for this player to have his class features be useful.

He'll give him spell components, don't you worry.

... Are there any spells that require Orcus as a component?

But no, he's even said before that even if they're all in a town restocking or whatever, he'll still pull that. Yes, wizards aren't allowed to stock up on components while they're in town. Or out in the wilderness. Or in a dungeon, or between sessions, etc etc etc you see where this is going.

Zaq

2014-07-13, 03:57 PM

Dr.Gara

2014-07-13, 03:58 PM

I lot don't, that is kinda the point....

Of course they wouldn't, the Overgod hates them for existing.

Problem Players like easy rules that are all good for them, like the default 3X/P rules. Take them away, and the Problem Player does not want to play. That stops them cold. And if they do play, they just want to sit back and be a problem. Take that away from them, and they can't make problems.

"They just want to sit back and be a problem." So, if they are sitting there being a problem, are they not still problem players? And if there are problem players at your table, did your houserules not fail on a very fundamental level by not keeping them away? Your rules actually don't even take the making problems bit away from them, it just makes it easier for them to make issues, with their spells splitting to create Orci all the time.

A great example from another thread: There are four players ready to enter the lair of the lich. Player five, Pete, is "Ok, I would like to officaly stop the game, make the other four players and the DM is around while I serch for spell components.''
Well maybe the DM shouldn't be forcing him to search for spell components so he can do anything. He has two options: He can do nothing the entire lair, and probably end up dead along with the rest of the party, because they lack any and all magical support, or they could go off and force the DM to follow his own rules so he can make sure the entire party doesn't die. How is that a problem? It seems like whoever the DM is in this case is the problem, not the player.

But no one would ever enforce rules like that, would they?

Alent

2014-07-13, 03:58 PM

So you add houserules declaring that spells require material components that they don't normally require, and then you add houserules saying that you're not allowed to gather the new weird material components. Is that correct? Am I misrepresenting you in any way?

Don't forget that he also sets arbitrary price points to put material components above the reach of Eschew Components, in addition to arbitrarily deciding components requiring certain kinds of animal aren't obtainable even by trade in various regions.

Yeah, you pretty much have all of his houserules on components right there.

jedipotter

2014-07-13, 03:58 PM

But the thing you haven't really addressed, at least that I could see, is that some of your rules CREATE more problems by making it possible for their actions to backfire on the entire party.

That is not creating a problem, that is creating fun. Having things backfire, or not work out 100% is fun and intresting.

Take for example: The Avengers. Hawkeye bombs the helicarrier and the Hulk looses control. This is ''having Dr. Banner'' backfire, that is do something bad and harmful to the group. So the Hulk rips apart lots of the helicarrier and alomst kills the Black Widow, fights Thor and gets attacked by the jet. I know a lot of people liked this.

Now, if it was set in 3.5 D&D there is no way Dr. Banner would lose control and become the Hulk, as D&D does not have this type of ''backfire''.

And I think that is wrong and boring.

Grod_The_Giant

2014-07-13, 04:00 PM

How do you think that? Just using material components alone gets rid of most problem spellcaster players. They take one look at the houserule and say ''lame, I'll be a fighter''. And that is just to start......

A great example from another thread: There are four players ready to enter the lair of the lich. Player five, Pete, is "Ok, I would like to officaly stop the game, make the other four players and the DM is around while I serch for spell components.''

Have we... have we circled back around to the argument that spawned Grod's Law (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?328767-More-realistic-D-amp-D-Economy/page4&p=17613518#post17613518)? Could I repost my entire tirade and have it still apply?

EDIT:

That is not creating a problem, that is creating fun. Having things backfire, or not work out 100% is fun and intresting.

Take for example: The Avengers. Hawkeye bombs the helicarrier and the Hulk looses control. This is ''having Dr. Banner'' backfire, that is do something bad and harmful to the group. So the Hulk rips apart lots of the helicarrier and alomst kills the Black Widow, fights Thor and gets attacked by the jet. I know a lot of people liked this.

Now, if it was set in 3.5 D&D there is no way Dr. Banner would lose control and become the Hulk, as D&D does not have this type of ''backfire''.

And I think that is wrong and boring.
Well, sure. That's part of the appeal of playing the Hulk. But that doesn't mean that the guy playing Thor should randomly Hulk out and destroy the helicarrier. Heck, even games built around that sort of thing (for example, Fate) tend to have controls and player choice built into deciding when you Hulk out.

Kazudo

2014-07-13, 04:00 PM

He'll give him spell components, don't you worry.

... Are there any spells that require Orcus as a component?

But no, he's even said before that even if they're all in a town restocking or whatever, he'll still pull that. Yes, wizards aren't allowed to stock up on components while they're in town. Or out in the wilderness. Or in a dungeon, or between sessions, etc etc etc you see where this is going.

There was a situation about hawk feathers that was done that way. The end result was that catching and plucking a hawk was not sufficient to get X uses of hawk feathers. It was cheating.

...Orcus isn't as much a spell component as a divine understanding of the magic system here.

EDIT:

That is not creating a problem, that is creating fun.

Your fun sounds like something Friend Computer would deem mandatory.

Flickerdart

2014-07-13, 04:09 PM

Divide by Zero

2014-07-13, 04:09 PM

TypoNinja

2014-07-13, 04:14 PM

Problem Players like easy rules that are all good for them, like the default 3X/P rules. Take them away, and the Problem Player does not want to play. That stops them cold. And if they do play, they just want to sit back and be a problem. Take that away from them, and they can't make problems.
''

Correlation is not causation.

I suspect rather than your terrible house rules "Fixing" things that you've simply driven away anybody with a level of system mastery sufficient to realize how horribly you've mangled their game.

torrasque666

2014-07-13, 04:15 PM

Nilehus

2014-07-13, 04:16 PM

Correlation is not causation.

I suspect rather than your terrible house rules "Fixing" things that you've simply driven away anybody with a level of system mastery sufficient to realize how horribly you've mangled their game.

System mastery is just cheater code for cheating.

Personally, I thought it meant knowing how to play D&D without having to check a book every 2 rounds, but apparently not.

Gildedragon

2014-07-13, 04:27 PM

Yeah Hulking out is a whole class feature in D&D 3.5: Rage
and if one wanted random: there is the Frenzied Berserker class, the incontrollable rage flaw...

Kazudo

2014-07-13, 04:30 PM

Yeah Hulking out is a whole class feature in D&D 3.5: Rage
and if one wanted random: there is the Frenzied Berserker class, the incontrollable rage flaw...

You mean Raging Orcus. There's at least a percentage chance that attempting to rudisplork to give yourself rage will end up in you losing your mind (wild shape does it, why not rage?) and you hand your character sheet to the DM and become Orcus.

eggynack

2014-07-13, 04:32 PM

A great example from another thread: There are four players ready to enter the lair of the lich. Player five, Pete, is "Ok, I would like to officaly stop the game, make the other four players and the DM is around while I serch for spell components.''
But... it's your fault that he's doing that. You are making him do the thing you hate. You are the problem player.

To be fair, Pickford didn't start that thread. He didn't even chime in until page three... So maybe this would be a tie for first, it first outright give the fact Jedi initiated this thread himself?
I disagree. Pickford never really started any of the Pickford threads. In point of fact, no thread that Pickford ever created went over 60 posts. His usual mode of existence involved doing what was done in that thread, which was crazy hijacking in the direction of pointless arguments that extended forever. I don't see much reason to begrudge anyone for their particular method of creating massive threads.

Flickerdart

2014-07-13, 04:47 PM

But... it's your fault that he's doing that. You are making him do the thing you hate. You are the problem player.
That's just another layer of jedipotter's byzantine despotism. He makes you do stuff he hates so that when you do the stuff he can go "aha, a problem player!" and get rid of you.

A_Moon

2014-07-13, 04:49 PM

God, I am so fed up of optimized cheating forumers who want to just get a thread every time they click "new thread".
"I make a new thr-""ORCUS 2 ELECTRIC BOOGALOO!"

... Are there any spells that require Orcus as a component?

Ah, I see how to break the system now. There is one spell that would require a piece of Orcus...

"I summon Orcus!"
"No! You summon Bwaaaahh???"

And then the universe implodes.

Also, I'd still like to see Jedi's full list of house-rules and his fixes for every single unbalanced spell.

jaydubs

2014-07-13, 04:56 PM

Your fun sounds like something Friend Computer would deem mandatory.

Friend Computer is always right.
Not obeying Friend Computer is treason.
Friend Computer says "Trust Friend Computer"
Friend Computer says "Be happy" (Not being happy is treason)
Friend Computer says that Secret Societies are treasonous, they want to overthrow Friend Computer.
Friend Computer says that mutants are treasonous, as they have powers that can hurt Friend Computer.
Treason is punishable by summary execution.

..........

The DM is always right.
Not agreeing with the DM makes you a dirty cheater.
The DM decides when you succeed or fail (trying to increase your chances of succeeding above 50% is cheating).
The DM says that optimizers are cheaters, they want to promote the boring concept of player agency.
The DM says that people using the unchanged ruleset are cheaters, since it lets players use abilities without a high probability of it horribly backfiring.
The DM says that compromise is wrong.
The DM says that logic has no place in the real world.
Not agreeing with any of the above makes you a problem player.
Problem players are banished to other games, which are boring because they don't include arbitrary causes of failure for every action.

Arbane

2014-07-13, 05:01 PM

I lot don't, that is kinda the point....

A great example from another thread: There are four players ready to enter the lair of the lich. Player five, Pete, is "Ok, I would like to officaly stop the game, make the other four players and the DM is around while I serch for spell components.''

Hoooold on. How did this alleged 'lich' manage to level up high enough to achieve undeadness without suffering an Orcus-related mishap first? I call shenanigans.

Your fun sounds like something Friend Computer would deem mandatory.

....Where's the 'like' button on this page?

Vaz

2014-07-13, 05:10 PM

As i've not read the thread, or care to, what are jedipotters houserules?

Vhaidara

2014-07-13, 05:15 PM

He won't post them, but they include
SR has a chance to refract the spell and fire it back at the party multiple times
Summons and Calling Require a piece of the creature, and has a 1%/spell level chance of summoning DM fiat (including possibly Orcus with SMI)
Spell Component Pouches don't exist
Spell components must be harvested IC and must be maintained, because if the quality of the component is too poor, it adds a chance of failure
If you take time out of the session to gather components, you are kicked out
Spellcraft and Knowledge skills are useless, but your character knows everything you (the player) knows
A number of spells have been given spell components
Even more spells have had their components modified to cost over 1gp, thus disqualifying them from Eschew materials
Phantasmal Killer was nerfed
You need Line of Sight to teleport
And a few more, but these are a lot of the big ones that have come up.

Faily

2014-07-13, 05:15 PM

But... it's your fault that he's doing that. You are making him do the thing you hate. You are the problem player.

Ding-ding-ding!

We have a winner.

enderlord99

2014-07-13, 05:16 PM

As i've not read the thread, or care to, what are jedipotters houserules?

We don't know all of them, and neither do his players. They aren't even allowed to.

A_Moon

2014-07-13, 05:16 PM

As i've not read the thread, or care to, what are jedipotters houserules?

Short version: We've been asking him that for a whole thread.

Less short version: He hasn't posted a whole list, but ones we do know about include wizards needing to keep track of spell-components, wizards arbitrarily not being allowed to buy replacement components, wizards being threatened with being kicked from the group if they try to gather replacements, and summoning spells having a small chance of summoning ORCUS something other than the intended target (i.e. whatever the DM feels like instead).

Edit: ah, triple ninja'd.

Nilehus

2014-07-13, 05:20 PM

"I summon Orcus!"
"No! You summon Bwaaaahh???"

-insert "Mother of God" gif here-

That's... that's genius!

Phantasmal Killer was nerfed

That still makes me laugh.

Vaz

2014-07-13, 05:24 PM

Vhaidara

2014-07-13, 05:26 PM

Oh, and I forgot to mention
Compromise is wrong (especially in relationships)
The only players you can trust are saints, which he doesn't play with
Logic has no place in the real world

thethird

2014-07-13, 05:29 PM

As i've not read the thread, or care to, what are jedipotters houserules?

We don't know. I mean he shared some, but when asked to post them al he repeteadly refused.

I've been Orcused.

A_Moon

2014-07-13, 05:29 PM

I was about to defend them, but as I was typing up one defence, the next point along just made me think, yeh, why bother?

Quite frankly, they're ridiculous houserules, and think you're all being trolled. Ignore him, his points are clearly invalid when making a rational argument. It's like when you go to environmentalist groups parading on TV, instead of speaking to the educated rational intellectuals who organized it, they pick up Hobo-billy with his 3 teeth and ask him his point of view.

The thing is, this discussion has spawned so many hilarious quotes that I think it would be a shame to abandon it. Have a look at the previous thread. Once you stop taking it at all seriously it gets pretty amusing.

jedipotter

2014-07-13, 05:30 PM

Except they can be a problem. They just fire at will at enemies with SR, waiting for the spell to refract onto their own team. They summon as they wish, away from themsleves, waiting to get a hostile summon.

Well, remember they don't know what has SR, and there is no ''easy, lazy, know everything skill''. they have to role-play to get this information. And they can't just ''memorize the books'', as I have more books.

So he gather components off camera. Because the party isn't going to want to go in when their fire support is out of components. After all, that means you might as well just tell that player to not show up to the session, since they can't do anything. Or, you know, they'll use spells without components.

It must be done on camera. i'm fine if Problem Player does not show up: ''Sorry dude I gotta go cut my old ladies lawn.''

But no one would ever enforce rules like that, would they?

Never say no one.

But you've said before that problem players are the ones that attack the group. So...you want problem players?

Attacking the group as your a jerk: wrong. Attack the group by randomness: ok.

And what if some of the players don't like PvP? This still sounds like something that benefits the "problem" players more.

They just be careful. They try to avoid such things.

Your fun sounds like something Friend Computer would deem mandatory.

Fun is Mandatory End of Line.

Dr.Gara

2014-07-13, 05:33 PM

I was about to defend them, but as I was typing up one defence, the next point along just made me think, yeh, why bother?

Quite frankly, they're ridiculous houserules, and think you're all being trolled. Ignore him, his points are clearly invalid when making a rational argument. It's like when you go to environmentalist groups parading on TV, instead of speaking to the educated rational intellectuals who organized it, they pick up Hobo-billy with his 3 teeth and ask him his point of view.
Psh. Using logical skills to know to avoid a topic is the hallmark of optimizer cheating, a true role-player would sit through and enjoy themselves the thread, whether they liked it or not.

Nilehus

2014-07-13, 05:36 PM

Psh. Using logical skills to know to avoid a topic is the hallmark of optimizer cheating, a true role-player would sit through and enjoy themselves the thread, whether they liked it or not.

Uh, sure, roll-player. A real role-player would already have gotten slain by Orcus for trying to post.

I love this thread and its predecessor so much.

Vhaidara

2014-07-13, 05:36 PM

Well, remember they don't know what has SR, and there is no ''easy, lazy, know everything skill''. they have to role-play to get this information. And they can't just ''memorize the books'', as I have more books.

I think you misunderstand. They don't care if things have SR, they will throw blasts at them anyways, while the people who care wouldn't to avoid frying their teammates.

Also, you are so cute when you make these assumptions about having more books.

It must be done on camera. i'm fine if Problem Player does not show up: ''Sorry dude I gotta go cut my old ladies lawn.''

Except this isn't them not showing up because they have an OoC thing coming up. This is them being disinvited because they aren't going to be able to do anything during the boss fight, also known as the climax, which no one wants to or should have to miss, since that's like letting someone read a book and taking it away from them before they get to read the end.

eggynack

2014-07-13, 05:38 PM

Attacking the group as your a jerk: wrong. Attack the group by randomness: ok.

What if you attack the group because you're a jerk, but do so by means of randomness? Thus, you would just take more in the way of risky action, without any particular target in mind, because you seek to sow chaos, and possibly cause arbitrary Orcus shaped harm to party members. Seems like a fair maneuver to me.

Hazrond

2014-07-13, 05:40 PM

Kantolin

2014-07-13, 05:41 PM

Whoops, posted this in the wrong place! Oh well, copy/pasting it...

Well, maybe more like: Don't expect to be a ''Teir 1'' type caster in my game. My rules make everyone much more level and balanced. No spellcaster dominates my game, without a LOT of work.

Ha, so we've graduated from jedipotter 'responding to a single word and ignoring the rest of the post' to 'Not responding at all' to the post! Maybe he's acceded the point?

Problem Players like easy rules that are all good for them, like the default 3X/P rules. Take them away, and the Problem Player does not want to play. That stops them cold. And if they do play, they just want to sit back and be a problem. Take that away from them, and they can't make problems.

Ah, nope. Maybe you missed my post? It's here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=17762624&postcount=1399), in case that is what happened - I know I've been busy!

It points out that this statement is incorrect - complete with examples, and references to two other people's posts with much of the same.

But... it's your fault that he's doing that. You are making him do the thing you hate. You are the problem player.

That certainly explains how he seems to end up playing with so many horrible monsters - he's driving away all the good players.

(I mean yeesh, the guy said Thurbane is a cheating optimizer! Thurbane!)

Edit:

And they can't just ''memorize the books'', as I have more books.

Are you saying you have the best monster knowledge /in the world/?! Nobody can possibly know more about monsters than you - and certainly not anyone whos goal in life is to wreck your game? That's quite a presumption we have there. :smallsmile:

Godskook

2014-07-13, 05:44 PM

That is not creating a problem, that is creating fun. Having things backfire, or not work out 100% is fun and intresting.

Take for example: The Avengers. Hawkeye bombs the helicarrier and the Hulk looses control. This is ''having Dr. Banner'' backfire, that is do something bad and harmful to the group. So the Hulk rips apart lots of the helicarrier and alomst kills the Black Widow, fights Thor and gets attacked by the jet. I know a lot of people liked this.

Now, if it was set in 3.5 D&D there is no way Dr. Banner would lose control and become the Hulk, as D&D does not have this type of ''backfire''.

And I think that is wrong and boring.

You're conflating "entertaining" and "fun" together, and in this context, they're not the same. The POINT of D&D is to give measured agency in the creation of a shared narrative. This is -the- fun of D&D, and loosing control of your character ala the Hulk denies you this.

In any endevour, you must figure out the type(s) of fun the system you're using supports. For instance, tabletops as a whole do not well-support cutscenes as a form of fun. D&D 3.5 does not support pvp very well, especially social pvp. Playing ranked League of Legends does not support 'abnegation' very well.

Your fundamental problem(optimizers ruining games) comes from your own inability as a DM(as part of the system) to support fun for that level of optimization(This isn't a knock, we all have our limitations). Its very possible to challenge high-end optimizing players, but it demands a lot of the DM, and its perfectly reasonable to say that "we need to play at this optimization level in order to have a good game", but an optimizer isn't cheating. Hell, its important to remember that anything a player does, the DM can do better if and when need be.

jedipotter

2014-07-13, 05:46 PM

He won't post them, but they include
SR has a chance to refract the spell and fire it back at the party multiple times

SR reactions is a whole list of effects, both good and bad.. #3 is reflect off the target.

Summons and Calling Require a piece of the creature, and has a 1%/spell level chance of summoning DM fiat (including possibly Orcus with SMI)

True

Spell Component Pouches don't exist
Spell components must be harvested IC and must be maintained, because if the quality of the component is too poor, it adds a chance of failure

True, true.

If you take time out of the session to gather components, you are kicked out

If you waste time.... I don't suffer time wasters. If you don't go shopping while the rest of the group does as your on your phone, we will not stop the game for you twenty minutes later so you can go back and go shopping.

Spellcraft and Knowledge skills are useless, but your character knows everything you (the player) knows

Don'y allow you to identify creatures and spell names with 100% accuracy.

A number of spells have been given spell components

The Conjuration/Summoning spells above, plus all polymorph-like spells.

Even more spells have had their components modified to cost over 1gp, thus disqualifying them from Eschew materials

Any part of a creature, other then animals and vermin, has a cost of at least 1gp or more.

Phantasmal Killer was nerfed

Not technicaly ''mine'', the players voted and I did not care, so I added it.

You need Line of Sight to teleport

Compromise is wrong (especially in relationships)

True.

The only players you can trust are saints, which he doesn't play with

Trust no one.

Logic has no place in the real world

Doctor: "Elephants are Pink."
Doctor: "Nelly is an Elephant."
Doctor: "Therefore, Nelly is Pink.''
Davros "Of course!''
Doctor: "Know what a human would say to that?"
Random nearby human "Elephants aren't Pink......"

A_Moon

2014-07-13, 05:49 PM

Doctor: "Elephants are Pink."
Doctor: "Nelly is an Elephant."
Doctor: "Therefore, Nelly is Pink.''
Davros "Of course!''
Doctor: "Know what a human would say to that?"
Random nearby human "Elephants aren't Pink......"

what

I don't even what the Orcus this means.

Edit: I mean, I see it's a Doctor Who quote... But what does it have to do with anything?

jedipotter

2014-07-13, 05:50 PM

..........

The DM is always right.
Not agreeing with the DM makes you a dirty cheater.
The DM decides when you succeed or fail (trying to increase your chances of succeeding above 50% is cheating).
The DM says that optimizers are cheaters, they want to promote the boring concept of player agency.
The DM says that people using the unchanged ruleset are cheaters, since it lets players use abilities without a high probability of it horribly backfiring.
The DM says that compromise is wrong.
The DM says that logic has no place in the real world.
Not agreeing with any of the above makes you a problem player.
Problem players are banished to other games, which are boring because they don't include arbitrary causes of failure for every action.

OMG........can I sig that? :smallbiggrin:

eggynack

2014-07-13, 05:51 PM

Doctor: "Elephants are Pink."
Doctor: "Nelly is an Elephant."
Doctor: "Therefore, Nelly is Pink.''
Davros "Of course!''
Doctor: "Know what a human would say to that?"
Random nearby human "Elephants aren't Pink......"
Indeed. Fallacious logic has no place in the real world, except insofar as it is used to make points in a poor manner. Good and healthful logic, the kind that doesn't use faulty premises and improperly supported conclusions, very much does have a place in the real world.

Nilehus

2014-07-13, 05:51 PM

Vhaidara

2014-07-13, 05:53 PM

If you waste time.... I don't suffer time wasters. If you don't go shopping while the rest of the group does as your on your phone, we will not stop the game for you twenty minutes later so you can go back and go shopping.

This is the first time this has been mentioned. Every time someone has mentioned gathering components, you have said "Nope, you're wasting my time, you're out". Now that person was on their phone while the rest of the group was dealing with their shopping. This is more reasonable. However, since the caster needs to keep track of 5 million times as many items, it is entirely possible that they might need 20 minutes to list off all the things they need and go a Roleplay gathering bat **** and everything else, while the fighter needs about 5 seconds to say "I get some rope".

Trust no one.

And this is why you are a terrible DM who I would never have any desire to play with. You are clearly scarred in ways I do not want to deal with if you hold this opinion.

Doctor: "Elephants are Pink."
Doctor: "Nelly is an Elephant."
Doctor: "Therefore, Nelly is Pink.''
Davros "Of course!''
Doctor: "Know what a human would say to that?"
Random nearby human "Elephants aren't Pink......"

That is a logical conclusion, that begins with a false pretense. That is an argument against false pretenses, not against logic.

Hazrond

2014-07-13, 05:55 PM

what

I don't even what the Orcus this means.

Edit: I mean, I see it's a Doctor Who quote... But what does it have to do with anything?

Can i please Sig your earlier quote about the fighter's sword summoning orcus? :smallsmile:

eggynack

2014-07-13, 05:58 PM

This is the first time this has been mentioned. Every time someone has mentioned gathering components, you have said "Nope, you're wasting my time, you're out". Now that person was on their phone while the rest of the group was dealing with their shopping. This is more reasonable. However, since the caster needs to keep track of 5 million times as many items, it is entirely possible that they might need 20 minutes to list off all the things they need and go a Roleplay gathering bat **** and everything else, while the fighter needs about 5 seconds to say "I get some rope".

Indeed. This is yet more support for the theory that Jedipotter is just really really bad at communicating. Still a lot of problems with the rule system, as were mentioned in the other thread, but at least one less now.

A_Moon

2014-07-13, 05:59 PM

Can i please Sig your earlier quote about the fighter's sword summoning orcus? :smallsmile:

Please, be my guest :smallredface:

Just watch that your sig doesn't turn into... Well, y'know.

jedipotter

2014-07-13, 05:59 PM

Also, you are so cute when you make these assumptions about having more books.

Oh, Ye think so? I've been gaming a long time and have a whole room full of books.

What if you attack the group because you're a jerk, but do so by means of randomness?

I'd see through the cardboard plan and stop you.

Maybe you missed my post?

Sorry if i miss a post. I try to respond to them all. There are Just. So. Many. Posts. And ''Kantolin'' is close to ''Keledrath'' and it's easy to mix the two of you up. How about changing your name to something like Orcus Borkus or something?

A_Moon

2014-07-13, 06:01 PM

Jedi, I'd like you to explain what you meant by that pink elephants thing. Because it kinda didn't make any sense.

Vhaidara

2014-07-13, 06:04 PM

It was a Doctor Who quote about logic with a false pretense.

Welcome to the internet, Jedipotter, world of PDFs. I have a dropbox folder full of books that I share with my gaming group. If I find a book not in there, I find a pdf of it and put it in there.

How do you stop the person who is just not caring about the risks he takes? Ban the things he's being risky with?

Hazrond

2014-07-13, 06:04 PM

Please, be my guest :smallredface:

Just watch that your sig doesn't turn into... Well, y'know.

Actually, i dont im rather new to forums i used to only watch

Vhaidara

2014-07-13, 06:06 PM

Actually, i dont im rather new to forums i used to only watch

Watch that it doesn't turn into Orcus. 50/50 chance.

eggynack

2014-07-13, 06:06 PM

I'd see through the cardboard plan and stop you.

How? "Oh man, an enemy with SR! I hope one of my spells, all of whom have SR or are summoning spells, can pierce through his SR. Oh no, it hasn't pierced through the SR. Woe is me, for random chaos has occurred." Seems a lot like normal player action to me. I don't think you can really force a player to actively work to avoid your house rules. Otherwise, why have the house rules over banning?

Nilehus

2014-07-13, 06:06 PM

Actually, i dont im rather new to forums i used to only watch

When you change your signature, there's a 50% chance it'll turn into Orcus. So, you know, watch out. :smallsmile:

Edit: Darnit. Orcus'd. Thanks, Keledrath.

A_Moon

2014-07-13, 06:10 PM

It was a Doctor Who quote about logic with a false pretense.

It's just that it kind of didn't address the point at all. It was a total non-sequitur.

enderlord99

2014-07-13, 06:11 PM

In jedipotter's defense, I don't think there are any problem* players he hasn't identified as problem players.

Well, actually, I lied: there clearly is one.:smallamused:

*this word is unnecessary.

Nilehus

2014-07-13, 06:13 PM

In jedipotter's defense, I don't think there are any problem* players he hasn't identified as problem players.

Well, actually, I lied: there clearly is one.:smallamused:

*this word is unnecessary.

Actually, he's already admitted he wouldn't like playing in his own kind of campaign. He doesn't like randomness when he's a player. :smalltongue:

eggynack

2014-07-13, 06:13 PM

It's just that it kind of didn't address the point at all. It was a total non-sequitur.
His logic was:

1: All logic is this logic.
2: This logic sucks.
3: Therefore, all logic sucks.

I can only assume that the irony of the fact that he's disparaging a logical fallacy in order to commit the exact same logical fallacy is lost on him.

Vhaidara

2014-07-13, 06:14 PM

It's just that it kind of didn't address the point at all. It was a total non-sequitur.

The point was that logic can be wrong, which is why the alien that worked off of pure logic saw no problem with Nelly being pink. However, as Eggy and I pointed out, that wasn't a logic problem, that was an information problem. I'm not really all that up on my fallacies, would that be a strawman?

enderlord99

2014-07-13, 06:14 PM

Actually, he's already admitted he wouldn't like playing in his own kind of campaign. He doesn't like randomness when he's a player. :smalltongue:

...He still doesn't consider himself a problem, despite it being blatantly obvious.

Nilehus

2014-07-13, 06:16 PM

...He still doesn't consider himself a problem, despite it being blatantly obvious.

No, he's the only one that knows how to DM properly. He just wouldn't like playing in his own campaigns, he'd like a bit more freedom and stability. No, that is not contradictory, now stop or he'll sic Orcus on you. :smallwink:

Threadnaught

2014-07-13, 06:17 PM

I'd see through the cardboard plan and stop you.

Me trying to derail your game: I summon the biggest, meanest creature possible right next to Party Fighter, to support him in combat and to act as an additional target for the enemies because I'm a team player.

You: You summon something different, it's even bigger, meaner and it kills the Party Fighter.

MTTDYG: Aww man. I'd better run away and go find some more Squirrel parts in the Forest of Ten Million Squirrels. Is it possible to find any Squirrel parts here?

You: NO YOUR A CHEATING OPTIMISER AND YOUR CHEATING GET OUT OF MY GAME YOU TURN INTO A DRAGON AND KILL YOURSELF NOW ROLEPLAY IT THEYRES A NIFE IN THE KITCHEN.

MTTDYG: I'm gonna roll up a shape changer next...

Later, in the Forest of Ten Million Squirrels.

MTTDYG: I turn into a Squirrel so I can sneak up on and listen in on the BBEG's conversation.

You: You lose you're mind and tune into a Squirrel forever.

MTTDYG: Ah well, I hope the others don't have any problems trying to find my Squirrel in the Forest of Ten Million Squirrels.

Party Fighter: This game ****ing sucks.

Two situations of a player abusing your house rules to cause as many problems as possible. The only named person with any issues with how your house rules are being handled, would be the Party Fighter, since the problem player is relying on you either allowing them to just waste resources and be completely unable to make any meaningful contributions to Party effectiveness, or wiping the party under the pretence of them trying to help the party... And the pretence of you making a game fun for players, when you're still just playing at playing a game of D&D with your toys as the players.

eggynack

2014-07-13, 06:17 PM

I'm not really all that up on my fallacies, would that be a strawman?
Seems accurate enough, though I like the way I put it together, cause irony points.

jedipotter

2014-07-13, 06:19 PM

A 1% chance or a solveable will save is not a discouragement, so it doesn't do that.

You forgot the -1 caster level per summoned creature.

Goal: Stop problem spellcasters. It doesn't do that.

Componets, randomess, lots of spell fixes and magic fixes stop them cold.

Goal: Stop jerk players. It doesn't do that.

Kyle can't, for example, become that stupid poorly written snapping turtle in my game, a he will never find a bit of one for a component. Kyle stopped.

Goal: Stop people from exploiting summons. A 1% per spell level doesn't do that (of special interest that I didn't notice before: Jedipotter specifically calls out 'Summoning /and calling/', and summarily is aware of the difference and in fact specifically calling out Summon Monster/Nature'sAlly.

If you spam summons/calls, sooner or later.....

Goal: Solve RIck (this is where Rick came from, I believe). It doesn't do that.

Rick can only change shape into things he has a part of, so no poorly written dumb Eberron dinosaurs. He can just turn into a wolf or a frog.

Goal: Problem players do not like risk, while nonproblem players like risk, so these rules help stop problem players. It has been proven that, contrary to this, it discourages /good/ players who don't want to maim their friends.

A good player, might just not even take/use a summoning spell...and might just like fireball the foe.

Doesn't work - the house rule isn't stopping the showboater (it's encouraging the showboater!), it's not stopping all the other problem players cold, it doesn't encourage good players to play the archetypes (unless 'good player' and 'kill friends' is a thing?).

The showboater can't show off, problem solved.

Nor have you commented about how not blocking fireball leads to 'can kill 3 dragons a turn', but that's less focal.

What are you talking about here?

enderlord99

2014-07-13, 06:22 PM

His logic was:

1: All logic is this logic.
2: This logic sucks.
3: Therefore, all logic sucks.

I can only assume that the irony of the fact that he's disparaging a logical fallacy in order to commit the exact same logical fallacy is lost on him.

Jedipotter? Respond to eggynack. Now.

I want to see you try to weasel your way out of that.

Threadnaught

2014-07-13, 06:24 PM

Actually, he's already admitted he wouldn't like playing in his own kind of campaign. He doesn't like randomness when he's a player. :smalltongue:

He doesn't consider himself a problem player.

He doesn't like "randomness" as a Player, because it would take away his ability to start playing with toys.

Just like how he enjoys "randomness" as a DM, as it allows him to play with his toys.

enderlord99

2014-07-13, 06:27 PM

I've met a sociopath who uses 4chan.

Jedipotter seems worse.

Dr.Gara

2014-07-13, 06:28 PM

You forgot the -1 caster level per summoned creature.

Yeah, that's ever so mildly annoying.

Componets, randomess, lots of spell fixes and magic fixes stop them cold.

No, they actually don't, as has been demonstrated.

Kyle can't, for example, become that stupid poorly written snapping turtle in my game, a he will never find a bit of one for a component. Kyle stopped.

I suppose he can't, but he doesn't care. Kyle, as a problem player, doesn't care if he lives or dies. He just laughs at you, figures another way to ruin everything for the party, which, by proxy, ruins everything for you, and does that next.

If you spam summons/calls, sooner or later.....

We get Orcus? Hell yeah! Do that MORE! I want even MORE Orcus! Gimme the Orcus!

Rick can only change shape into things he has a part of, so no poorly written dumb Eberron dinosaurs. He can just turn into a wolf or a frog.

And then go crazy as a wolf, then end up dead or killing the party, or just lost and make a new character.

A good player, might just not even take/use a summoning spell...and might just like fireball the foe.

What? So, are you saying the only way to be good spellcaster is to use Evocation? Because lemme tell you, the Mailman still kills things.

Munchkin-Masher

2014-07-13, 06:36 PM

Oh, Ye think so? I've been gaming a long time and have a whole room full of books.

Oh my God, what does that even mean?

We're talking about D&D 3.5, only a limited selection of the books in that room (all of which your players have access to) are applicable to the game.

Or are you implying that you'd start converting monster from Rogue Trader and Exalted to put into your 3.5 game? Because that would require a pretty monstrous amount of work for very little reward.

OracleofWuffing

2014-07-13, 06:36 PM

However, since the caster needs to keep track of 5 million times as many items, it is entirely possible that they might need 20 minutes to list off all the things they need and go a Roleplay gathering bat **** and everything else, while the fighter needs about 5 seconds to say "I get some rope".
Woah, woah, woah, woah woah. Rope, that's a whole different thing. I mean, you can use it to cross pits, you can use it to pull multiple objects at the same time, you can use it to restrain creatures, it's even a crafting component for multiple objects. Really, it's an item that's so widely open for rudisplork that it just makes Vow of Poverty look like Toughness. And there's so many different kinds of rope, too. Like, yeah, hempen rope? I get rashes from that. If I'm climbing a rope, it better be like nylon or something. But a buddy of mine won't settle for anything other than Dacron. Oh, and then you also have to get into rope maintenance. You can't really use a water-soluable cleaner on anything with a durable water repellency and expect everything to come out hunky-dory, and you're in really deep trouble if your rope snaps into two pieces. I mean, sure, with most poly blends you can just singe them back together but you just know it won't hold weight again.

Thankfully, they're cheaper in bulk. Now, if only I had some extradimensional space to store sixty pounds of rope.

jedipotter

2014-07-13, 06:41 PM

Me trying to derail your game: I summon the biggest, meanest creature possible right next to Party Fighter, to support him in combat and to act as an additional target for the enemies because I'm a team player.

OR

DM:You summon something different, it's a fluffy pink penguin. It does nothing.

OR

DM:You summon something different, you summon Orcus. Orcus ignore the fighter and comes over to you ''you dare summon me, mortal flea?""

Later, in the Forest of Ten Million Squirrels.

MTTDYG: I turn into a Squirrel so I can sneak up on and listen in on the BBEG's conversation.

You: You lose you're mind and tune into a Squirrel forever.

MTTDYG: Ah well, I hope the others don't have any problems trying to find my Squirrel in the Forest of Ten Million Squirrels.

You loose your mind and run off into the forest. Just a round later you encounter Rititisk god of the kercpa(aka-squirrel people). He ends your shapechange and sends you back to the others as your not a ''pure squirrel'.

Jedipotter? Respond to eggynack. Now.

I want to see you try to weasel your way out of that.

My logic was ''I love Doctor Who''. What was the question?

We're talking about D&D 3.5, only a limited selection of the books in that room (all of which your players have access to) are applicable to the game.

Ok..you want to limited it to D&D 3.5E Wizard only books? That is still a lot. But I use more, dozens and dozens of 3rd party 3.5E D&D books and dozens and dozens of 2E books too.

TypoNinja

2014-07-13, 06:45 PM

No, he's the only one that knows how to DM properly. He just wouldn't like playing in his own campaigns, he'd like a bit more freedom and stability. No, that is not contradictory, now stop or he'll sic Orcus on you. :smallwink:

I think the fact that this is the second thread shows that point to be up for grabs so far >_> <_< >_>

In all seriousness though, this is the part that baffles me. I can see bad house rules existing for a DM who has put them in place for one reason or another, but if you can recognize that you wouldn't want to play in your own game, what makes you think the poor players are any happier than you would be?

This is a different level than your typical house rules, some conventions seem fairly common across groups even, and then of course rules that differentiate your campaign setting, certain things may flat out not exist, some new things likely exist.

But jedipotter is actually undermining the rules system in places, and a few of the house rules feel like a passive aggressive play. Instead of banning something outright he makes using it so terrible (and/or punitive) that people will avoid the option.

Sir Chuckles

2014-07-13, 06:46 PM

I'm curious, does anyone in your game world leave their home? Because it seems that anything short of "I lock my doors and windows, and live off of mushrooms I cultivate" is certain to lead to that person dying a violent death, often by their own or an ally's hand, before they finish basic training for their first class level.

I can understand a dangerous, scary world of monsters and mayhem, but you've effectively built yourself as an overdeity that smites people on rather contrite whims.

To address the house rules, there are plenty of ways to reduce, stop, and discourage usage of things you do not like. For instance, for the sake of fun for my two low-op players, I mark Greenbound Summoning as Metamagic and give it a +1 adjustment (I'm debating adding Augmented Summoning as a prereq, or bumping it up to a +2). This very simple does not add extra frivolous roles to a turn, does not force the Druid, a protector of nature, to go rooting around for dead animals for summoning, and does not make the Druid into a liability.
I'm not normally so direct, but your house rules are incredibly inelegant, make assumptions that are only supported by circular logic where you indirectly control the player characters, and ultimately only do what they want you to do because of the same false assumptions from the previous example.
2/10, would smite with Orcus.

eggynack

2014-07-13, 06:47 PM

My logic was ''I love Doctor Who''. What was the question?

So, that thing you said wasn't in any way a response to the thing you were ostensibly responding to, through the use of quotes? Am I just to assume that, a good percentage of the time, your responses are just complete non sequiturs? Good to know.

torrasque666

2014-07-13, 06:48 PM

Ok..you want to limited it to D&D 3.5E Wizard only books? That is still a lot. But I use more, dozens and dozens of 3rd party 3.5E D&D books and dozens and dozens of 2E books too.

Most of which are generally available online as PDFs. It might not be readily available, but someone somewhere has uploaded a PDF of it. I'm sure if the playground consolidated their PDFs into a dropbox/4shared you would have a hard time finding one that we don't have.

kardar233

2014-07-13, 06:50 PM

Out of curiosity, Jedipotter, which of these comics depicts a more fun game in your opinion?

DM of the Rings (http://www.shamusyoung.com/twentysidedtale/?p=612)

Darths and Droids (http://darthsanddroids.net/episodes/0001.html)

Nilehus

2014-07-13, 06:50 PM

I think the fact that this is the second thread shows that point to be up for grabs so far >_> <_< >_>

In all seriousness though, this is the part that baffles me. I can see bad house rules existing for a DM who has put them in place for one reason or another, but if you can recognize that you wouldn't want to play in your own game, what makes you think the poor players are any happier than you would be?

This is a different level than your typical house rules, some conventions seem fairly common across groups even, and then of course rules that differentiate your campaign setting, certain things may flat out not exist, some new things likely exist.

But jedipotter is actually undermining the rules system in places, and a few of the house rules feel like a passive aggressive play. Instead of banning something outright he makes using it so terrible (and/or punitive) that people will avoid the option.

I know. I wasn't serious. :smallwink: Frankly, even without the ridiculous house rules, I don't understand how anyone could play. At least with a game like Asura's Wrath, where it is primarily an interactive movie, you at least get to 'do' awesome things. This, though...

Vhaidara

2014-07-13, 06:55 PM

jedipotter

2014-07-13, 07:02 PM

Yeah, that's ever so mildly annoying.

Well...10th level caster, summons nice creatures, drops down to caster level 1....bit more then annoying.

No, they actually don't, as has been demonstrated.

Saying ''I don't like the rule'' is not demonstrating that it does not work.

I suppose he can't, but he doesn't care. Kyle, as a problem player, doesn't care if he lives or dies. He just laughs at you, figures another way to ruin everything for the party, which, by proxy, ruins everything for you, and does that next.

Not with me keeping watch on him....

And then go crazy as a wolf, then end up dead or killing the party, or just lost and make a new character.

I'd see through his trick.....

What? So, are you saying the only way to be good spellcaster is to use Evocation? Because lemme tell you, the Mailman still kills things.

Does the mailman give people paper cuts from letters?

if you can recognize that you wouldn't want to play in your own game, what makes you think the poor players are any happier than you would be?

I don't understand why anyone plays 4E, but if they want to that is fine with me.

But jedipotter is actually undermining the rules system in places, and a few of the house rules feel like a passive aggressive play. Instead of banning something outright he makes using it so terrible (and/or punitive) that people will avoid the option.

Well, sure you can say any negative house rule, or just a rule you don't like is ''passive agressive''

So, that thing you said wasn't in any way a response to the thing you were ostensibly responding to, through the use of quotes? Am I just to assume that, a good percentage of the time, your responses are just complete non sequiturs? Good to know.

“Give a monkey control of its environment, and it will fill the world with bananas.” – Second Doctor

TypoNinja

2014-07-13, 07:05 PM

Most of which are generally available online as PDFs. It might not be readily available, but someone somewhere has uploaded a PDF of it. I'm sure if the playground consolidated their PDFs into a dropbox/4shared you would have a hard time finding one that we don't have.

Full collections aren't hard to find, I've a bookcase full of books and Dragons/Dungeons mags, but I still find the PDF's more convenient when trying to find strange rules. A nice searchable PDF to pull up every reference to Extra Dimensional Spaces, for example, is far handier than checking page by page. And far lighter when it comes to carting reference material to somebody elses house.

Also, I'm a lazy sod and this way I don't have to get up and walk over to the shelf :P

I know. I wasn't serious. :smallwink: Frankly, even without the ridiculous house rules, I don't understand how anyone could play. At least with a game like Asura's Wrath, where it is primarily an interactive movie, you at least get to 'do' awesome things. This, though...

On the other hand, it sounds like jedipotter would make a superb Paranoia Game Master, assuming he can make the bad stuff funny enough.

torrasque666

2014-07-13, 07:07 PM

I don't understand why anyone plays 4E, but if they want to that is fine with me.

This isn't about 4E in the slightest. This is about Storytellers and Problem Players. You have admitted that you wouldn't like to play as a player in a game using your rules. So why do you expect your players to be happy playing Storytellers and Problem Players if you wouldn't be?

Or is this just another case of you not communicating in the slightest?

Nilehus

2014-07-13, 07:09 PM

On the other hand, it sounds like jedipotter would make a superb Paranoia Game Master, assuming he can make the bad stuff funny enough.

Sonuva... You are completely right. It'd even fit with his 50% mortality rate every round.

You know what happens to people that have good ideas around this thread, right?

eggynack

2014-07-13, 07:10 PM

Well...10th level caster, summons nice creatures, drops down to caster level 1....bit more then annoying.
I thought that the CL reduction only lasted as long as the summons did. If that's the case, then it's really not particularly more than annoying. CL impacts the game, but not by a massive amount, and if I'm tossing out nine separate summoning spells in a single combat, because I'm probably not multi-summoning with this rule, then the extra actions provided by summoning is exactly what I want. It seems like an unlikely drop in caster level, however. Really a waste of slots in most situations.

“Give a monkey control of its environment, and it will fill the world with bananas.” – Second Doctor

I'll take that as a yes. In that case, may I further assume that you have no issue with logic as a real world tool? Because, as is, any evidence you've provided for your side on this point is either a complete non sequitur, or using fallacious logic.

Threadnaught

2014-07-13, 07:10 PM

OR

DM:You summon something different, it's a fluffy pink penguin. It does nothing.

OR

DM:You summon something different, you summon Orcus. Orcus ignore the fighter and comes over to you ''you dare summon me, mortal flea?""

Okay, in your first version, you turned me into a load for the Party to carry. This time I'm a little more helpful than if you made the Summon hostile (can Squirrels actually fight?), but it's not like you're punishing me. Is it?

Second case, I summon Orcus? Well since the Party Fighter threatens the square he's in and other members may threaten the squares he moves through to get to me, does he not provoke attacks of opportunity for any of those?
Also yes, Orcus just got Summoned by a 1st level Wizard, he can either kill me and send my soul to the lower Planes, where I will let all the other Demon Lords know that Orcus is a gigantic ***** who lets himself be Summoned by 1st level Wizards, or he can bargain with me. The price for my silence would be these three wishes.

1: Never kill me through actions direct or indirect.
2: Never create a new damn sucky crappy house rule.
3: Erase a single currently existing house rule from the "game".

You loose your mind and run off into the forest. Just a round later you encounter Rititisk god of the kercpa(aka-squirrel people). He ends your shapechange Wildshape and sends you back to the others as your not a ''pure squirrel'.

Fixed it for you, I'd prefer to transform as a Druid, using Wildshape.

Really? So whenever I Wildshape and you decide I'm going to be worthless, I'm not going to be punished in any way for it? You just decide that the party doesn't have to go casting Remove Curse on a Million Squirrels over the course of 11 hours?

Interesting. I think I'll still play Druid in your campaign, I'd love to derail it somehow...

Actually yeah, can I have a Fleshraker Animal Companion? I like the whole idea of having a Class Feature that would randomly kill me for no reason whatsoever and potentially wipe out the rest of the party as well. Y'know, as some jerk who wants to ruin everyone else's fun.

TypoNinja

2014-07-13, 07:19 PM

Sonuva... You are completely right. It'd even fit with his 50% mortality rate every round.

You know what happens to people that have good ideas around this thread, right?

Err, no? Should I be worried?

Faily

2014-07-13, 07:20 PM

Problem Players - where normal people talk to them about why they are causing troubles outside the game, or other players and GM try to lead by example by engaging them in interesting and rewarding roleplaying experiences.

Or on certain person's table, they cause a painful amount of ridiculous houserules which makes the game un-fun for the sane players to deal with. Would honestly love to hear from the players who have suffered under the random summoning of Orcus due to Summon Monster I mishaps though... get the view from those who actually have played there, and survived to tell the tale.

kellbyb

2014-07-13, 07:21 PM

Vaz

2014-07-13, 07:21 PM

Nilehus

2014-07-13, 07:23 PM

Err, no? Should I be worried?

Only if having Orcus poofed next to you worries you.

jedipotter

2014-07-13, 07:23 PM

I thought that the CL reduction only lasted as long as the summons did. If that's the case, then it's really not particularly more than annoying. CL impacts the game, but not by a massive amount, and if I'm tossing out nine separate summoning spells in a single combat, because I'm probably not multi-summoning with this rule, then the extra actions provided by summoning is exactly what I want. It seems like an unlikely drop in caster level, however. Really a waste of slots in most situations. .

It's per creature, not per spell. And CL is big, it effects all your spells and abilities......unless there is so 3.5E thing that says it's pointless?

Second case, I summon Orcus? Well since the Party Fighter threatens the square he's in and other members may threaten the squares he moves through to get to me, does he not provoke attacks of opportunity for any of those?
Also yes, Orcus just got Summoned by a 1st level Wizard, he can either kill me and send my soul to the lower Planes, where I will let all the other Demon Lords know that Orcus is a gigantic ***** who lets himself be Summoned by 1st level Wizards, or he can bargain with me. The price for my silence would be these three wishes.

1: Never kill me through actions direct or indirect.
2: Never create a new damn sucky ****ty house rule.
3: Erase a single currently existing house rule from the "game".

Orcus is not, and never will be ''threatened by a fighter''. Orcus can teleport. Or Orcus can take your soul and trap it. ....or worse.

Interesting. I think I'll still play Druid in your campaign, I'd love to derail it somehow...

We need to get a PbP game going.....

Dr.Gara

2014-07-13, 07:24 PM

Well...10th level caster, summons nice creatures, drops down to caster level 1....bit more then annoying.

Not for very long, really. Any combat with nine summons out is either going to end shortly or kill you.

Saying ''I don't like the rule'' is not demonstrating that it does not work.

Saying loudly many times that it works is also not demonstrating that it does work.

Not with me keeping watch on him....

And then you'll passive aggressively try to edge him out of the game, thus making it worse for everyone else in the interim? Or you'll kick him out. Most likely, you won't notice, given that I somehow doubt you have magic at your disposal to tell if someone is plotting against you.

I'd see through his trick.....

Through the power of the aftermentioned magic, I suppose.

Does the mailman give people paper cuts from letters?

No. Your ignorance doesn't do you credit. It's a sorcerer build focused on doing lots of Save:No, often SR:No based damage very quickly, often going first in combat to get these shots off. Doesn't conjure or shapeshift, so is /that/ cheating?

Dr.Gara

2014-07-13, 07:27 PM

Orcus is not, and never will be ''threatened by a fighter''. Orcus can teleport. Or Orcus can take your soul and trap it. ....or worse.

I'm not sure you know what threatened means now. "You threaten all squares into which you can make a melee attack, even when it is not your action." That just means that the fighter can swing at him. Also, teleporting would cause even more AoOs, because Orcus is threatened by the fighter.

eggynack

2014-07-13, 07:30 PM

It's per creature, not per spell. And CL is big, it effects all your spells and abilities......unless there is so 3.5E thing that says it's pointless?

I got that it was per-creature, but that often means the same thing as per-spell, and CL isn't pointless, but it's also not the biggest thing in the world. There are plenty of spells that aren't hit particularly hard by a big CL drop. As an easy example, just read solid fog (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/solidFog.htm). If combat lasts less than a minute, which it usually will in this system, then the spell level reduction meant nothing unless someone tosses out a dispel magic. A reduction to a CL of 1 also seems a bit improbable, at least at higher levels. Your example required so many summons that CL becomes completely irrelevant, because you're probably better off not casting spells by that point.

jedipotter

2014-07-13, 07:35 PM

Jedipotter, you still haven't resolved the question about low-tier spellcasting classes and SR. Warmages, warlocks, dread necromancers, beguilers, and bards are all regarded as decidedly subpar classes to begin with, but they all suffer under your SR rules that are supposed to limit the power of T1's which in the more optimized cases are barely affected if at all.

I though I did?

Warmages just suck. so my houserule makes them suck even more. Very few people have ever played on of them in my games.

Warlocks! I love warlocks. Well the eldrich blast is not effected by SR, is it? I always though it was a 'supernatural power'. If it's not, that is a houserule then.

Dread necromancers only get a couple attack spells, and again charnnel touch is supernatural, right?

Beguilers? No one has ever been one....

Bard's don't have a lot of attack spells, and all the music and enachantment won't effect most outsiders anyway.

All the above classes can do a lot more then just ''blast with a spell'', but that is all wizards and sorsorers, when played by problem players, can do.

Threadnaught

2014-07-13, 07:36 PM

Orcus is not, and never will be ''threatened by a fighter''.

Wow, way to punish the problem player by not allowing the Fighter to attack something when they get the chance.

Orcus can teleport. Or Orcus can take your soul and trap it. ....or worse.

Like what? Send me to the Abyss to serve in his armies forever, so I can tell all the other Demon Lords that he's so weak an Apprentice Wizard learning their first Cantrip can Summon him?

If I were Orcus, I'd be open to negotiation, because I don't want all the other Demon Lords knowing how I keep getting my breakfast interrupted by some schmuck Wizard trying to cast Prestidigitation.

We need to get a PbP game going.....

Really? You really want to play an actual game with actual players?
You, the guy who goes on about how much he likes to play with toys?

This should be interesting. :smallamused:

Gabrosin

2014-07-13, 07:37 PM

Problem Players like easy rules that are all good for them, like the default 3X/P rules. Take them away, and the Problem Player does not want to play.

First off, thank you for admitting that problem players are "anyone who likes the rules of the game we're all discussing on this forum", and distinguishing how little your own "story hour" version relates to them.

Second, how is this still going?

Is there any chance we can just banish JP to the "other roleplaying games" forum instead? Or make a JP tag for threads involving his system?

Necroticplague

2014-07-13, 07:38 PM

Or on certain person's table, they cause a painful amount of ridiculous houserules which makes the game un-fun for the sane players to deal with. Would honestly love to hear from the players who have suffered under the random summoning of Orcus due to Summon Monster I mishaps though... get the view from those who actually have played there, and survived to tell the tale.

actually, the Orcus example is never something that was claimed to happen, just one person's overexagerated fear. That's why I've stuck to the listed example (in the houserule itself) of a hezrou (CR10) from an SM2 (level3 normally, possible to do at level1).Still pretty much a tpk, though.

jedipotter

2014-07-13, 07:39 PM

You, the guy who goes on about how much he likes to play with toys?

Threadnaught, will you be one of my toys...er, players?

Flickerdart

2014-07-13, 07:40 PM

Bard's don't have a lot of attack spells, and all the music and enachantment won't effect most outsiders anyway.

Outsiders aren't normally immune to Enchantment spells.

All the above classes can do a lot more then just ''blast with a spell'', but that is all wizards and sorsorers, when played by problem players, can do.
Uh...what? No. Every optimizer (which you conflate with problem player) knows that direct damage is the worst thing to do as a spellcaster. Every optimizer also knows that versatility is key, and that a spellcaster is the best way to get that versatility.

This proves yet again that you're completely divorced from reality (and I suspect that she's got a restraining order against you).

torrasque666

2014-07-13, 07:41 PM

Oh god, he's learned sarcasm!

Wait that wasn't blue-text...

Vhaidara

2014-07-13, 07:41 PM

Uh...what? No. Every optimizer (which you conflate with problem player) knows that direct damage is the worst thing to do as a spellcaster. Every optimizer also knows that versatility is key, and that a spellcaster is the best way to get that versatility.

This proves yet again that you're completely divorced from reality (and I suspect that she's got a restraining order against you).

you misunderstand. that's all he lets them do.

kellbyb

2014-07-13, 07:43 PM

We need to get a PbP game going.....

Count me in for that.

Also, you still haven't said anything about this:

EDIT: nvm, probably just my bad internet.

Dr.Gara

2014-07-13, 07:46 PM

We need to get a PbP game going.....
As long as you divulged the houserules, I would do that.

Threadnaught

2014-07-13, 07:47 PM

All the above classes can do a lot more then just ''blast with a spell'', but that is all wizards and sorsorers, when played by problem players, can do.

I have to admit, I'm having problems with a Player who has a character which deals higher amounts of damage than anything else in the party. The problem however, stems from me not being able to balance the challenges right, if I did, then it wouldn't be a problem.

I don't have to house rule that bows have a 1% chance of breaking each time they're fired, or give a miss chance if an enemy moves unless the enemy gains it anyway. Because that would be unfair.
I have given the character a Cursed item that damaged their Dexterity each day if they fail the Fortitude save, but that really is the player's fault. I offered them a special +1 Dagger of Returning for the price of a regular Dagger and they accepted it. Mentioning at the time that they "just wanted to see how I'd screw them over with it".
No seriously, exact words.

Look jedi, a player chose for a bad thing to randomly happen to their character. The choice wasn't made for them, because the player in question isn't the DM's toy.

As long as you divulged the houserules, I would do that.

Unless he has more ammunition for the problem players to use, he doesn't need to bring in any more.

torrasque666

2014-07-13, 07:47 PM

Count me in for that.

Also, you still haven't said anything about this:
No.... he did actually.

I though I did?

Warmages just suck. so my houserule makes them suck even more. Very few people have ever played on of them in my games.

Warlocks! I love warlocks. Well the eldrich blast is not effected by SR, is it? I always though it was a 'supernatural power'. If it's not, that is a houserule then.

Dread necromancers only get a couple attack spells, and again charnnel touch is supernatural, right?

Beguilers? No one has ever been one....

Bard's don't have a lot of attack spells, and all the music and enachantment won't effect most outsiders anyway.

All the above classes can do a lot more then just ''blast with a spell'', but that is all wizards and sorsorers, when played by problem players, can do.

He basically said that he'd deal with the situations when they arose. And apparently has houseruled Outsiders.

kellbyb

2014-07-13, 07:55 PM

I though I did?

You probably did, and I didn't see it because of sucky internet.

Warmages just suck. so my houserule makes them suck even more. Very few people have ever played on of them in my games.

Why not give a bit of love to such a cool archetype? Blasting needs a bit of a buff, anyway.

Warlocks! I love warlocks. Well the eldrich blast is not effected by SR, is it? I always though it was a 'supernatural power'. If it's not, that is a houserule then.

I love warlocks too! And yeah, that is a houserule; normally you need vitriolic blast to bypass SR.

Bard's don't have a lot of attack spells, and all the music and enachantment won't effect most outsiders anyway.

Actually, that's another houserule.

All the above classes can do a lot more then just ''blast with a spell'', but that is all wizards and sorsorers, when played by problem players, can do.

1. actually, that's ALL warmages can do.
2. Actual problem players who want to overshadow other players will probably know blasting is a sucky choice, and instead choose to end encounters with spells like Cloudkill or Evard's Perverted Tentacles.

Threadnaught

2014-07-13, 07:57 PM

Threadnaught, will you be one of my toys...er, players?

The game is Who can be the Biggest Jerk, where all players, including the DM who is just another player, complete to see who can ruin everyone else's fun the most.

So yes, of course I'll be playing.

137beth

2014-07-13, 07:59 PM

I got a weird look from my non-gamer roommate when I laughed out loud at the thread title. And then I couldn't explain what was funny...

jedipotter

2014-07-13, 08:00 PM

Outsiders aren't normally immune to Enchantment spells.

What is this ''normal'' you speak of? The default rules let things like demons and elementals ''feel emotions'' just like humans. My setting rules don't. Outsiders are not ''living things just like humans''.

Count me in for that.

Also, you still haven't said anything about this:

EDIT: nvm, probably just my bad internet.

You want to be a druid, right?

I have to admit, I'm having problems with a Player who has a character which deals higher amounts of damage than anything else in the party. Look jedi, a player chose for a bad thing to randomly happen to their character. The choice wasn't made for them, because the player in question isn't the DM's toy.

So in your game, at the DM's whim, you can screw with a player? And you think 1% per spell level chance of something going wrong is bad?

eggynack

2014-07-13, 08:02 PM

So in your game, at the DM's whim, you can screw with a player? And you think 1% per spell level chance of something going wrong is bad?
I don't see where he wrote that. Looks like he wrote something completely different from that. Looks like he didn't screw with the player at all, in any fashion.

thethird

2014-07-13, 08:02 PM

What is this ''normal'' you speak of? The default rules let things like demons and elementals ''feel emotions'' just like humans. My setting rules don't. Outsiders are not ''living things just like humans''.

By normal he means the printed rules, which are the assumed baseline. Of course if you say another thing, it is a houserule, and we can then work with that knowledge. But till then we assume printed official rules in effect, unless of course we should replace those with Orcus, you know?

Sir Chuckles

2014-07-13, 08:04 PM

I was rereading DM of the Rings, and I came across this (http://www.shamusyoung.com/twentysidedtale/?p=1061) strip.
I thought it was mildly on-topic.

jedipotter

2014-07-13, 08:04 PM

Faily

2014-07-13, 08:06 PM

I don't see where he wrote that. Looks like he wrote something completely different from that. Looks like he didn't screw with the player at all, in any fashion.

Indeed, he screwed the *character* and not the player, which are not nescessarily the same thing. Though with JP, you never know if that difference has yet to be registered.

Vhaidara

2014-07-13, 08:07 PM

The game is Who can be the Biggest Jerk, where all players, including the DM who is just another player, complete to see who can ruin everyone else's fun the most.

So yes, of course I'll be playing.

Count me in! I'll make a fighter from a long line of extremely virile fighters who are known for taking multiple wives who are known for being very fertile. Because of this, they got lazy naming their children. But my fighter was the firstborn of his generation: Gen17 Sib1 Fighterson.

I'm not saying, but he may have siblings in case he dies to Orcus.

Oh, and he uses a Katena.

Zanos

2014-07-13, 08:08 PM

The amount of psychological and logical acrobatics performed by Jedipotter in these threads could probably give Neon Genesis Evangelion a run for it's money...

thethird

2014-07-13, 08:11 PM

Incidentally I would only consider playing a jedipotter game if I'm informed in advance of every house rule in effect.

Oddman80

2014-07-13, 08:13 PM

Count me in! I'll make a fighter from a long line of extremely virile fighters who are known for taking multiple wives who are known for being very fertile. Because of this, they got lazy naming their children. But my fighter was the firstborn of his generation: Gen17 Sib1 Fighterson.

I'm not saying, but he may have siblings in case he dies to Orcus.

Oh, and he uses a Katena.

So is the play by post just going to take over these series of threads for everyone to enjoy?
If not, will you at least post a link to the pbp so we can all lurk with our tacos, ice cream, and crock-pot concoctions?

torrasque666

2014-07-13, 08:13 PM

Incidentally I would only consider playing a jedipotter game if I'm informed in advance of every house rule in effect.
Only a cheating optimizer knows the rules in advance!

jedipotter

2014-07-13, 08:13 PM

Incidentally I would only consider playing a jedipotter game if I'm informed in advance of every house rule in effect.

Well, you'd have to find The Secret Chamber of Secret House Rules in the game.

*.*.*.*

2014-07-13, 08:14 PM

What is this ''normal'' you speak of? The default rules let things like demons and elementals ''feel emotions'' just like humans. My setting rules don't. Outsiders are not ''living things just like humans''.

I don't like you because of this statement, I'm pretty sure Afroakuma would also be pretty upset. Not the point, really.

So, under your rules, enchantment now no longer affects Undead(the biggest creature type in the game), Constructs, Plants, Vermin, Oozes, Outsiders, and the dozens of misc monsters that are immune. Why would people want to be spellcasters under you? Even if they aren't 'Optimizing'(even if I you have to intentionally nerf yourself to not optimize someway), you neutered almost every classical archetype of caster. Summoners? Orcus and useless summons that could kill you. Shapeshifters? You need bits of them(as long as the bits aren't used up, this isn't so bad) and you can lose your mind. Blasters? SR nerfs them even harder. Dominator types? More of the game is immune than normal(which is normally more than half), I also suspect you ban ways to get around immunity to enchantment/mind-affecting. You can't even reliably play party taxi! I also highly suspect dumb houserules on divination and buffing. What is the point of being a spellcaster under you? It just doesn't sounds fun at all, definitely for your average player who is more dangerous and more of a liability to your party than a psyker constantly pushing in the 40k systems. A dedicated optimizer has the only chance to be remotely useful under these circumstances.

thethird

2014-07-13, 08:16 PM

The rules are to dissuade cheating optimizers of playing.

If I see the rules and don't play I'm a cheating optimizer.

If I see the rules and do play I'm not a cheating optimizer.

But if I see the rules I'm a cheating optimizer.

The only way to play is to not see the rules.

Or you know... cheat, and optimize.

Dimers

2014-07-13, 08:18 PM

Oh, Ye think so? I've been gaming a long time and have a whole room full of books.

Oh my God, what does that even mean?

Allow me to translate: "Mine is bigger than yours." :smallwink:

So, that thing you said wasn't in any way a response to the thing you were ostensibly responding to, through the use of quotes? Am I just to assume that, a good percentage of the time, your responses are just complete non sequiturs? Good to know.

Logic has about a 50% chance of surviving a given encounter.

Necroticplague

2014-07-13, 08:23 PM

So, under your rules, enchantment now no longer affects Undead(the biggest creature type in the game), Constructs, Plants, Vermin, Oozes, Outsiders, and the dozens of misc monsters that are immune. Why would people want to be spellcasters under you? Even if they aren't 'Optimizing'(even if I you have to intentionally nerf yourself to not optimize someway), you neutered almost every classical archetype of caster. Summoners? Orcus and useless summons that could kill you. Shapeshifters? You need bits of them(as long as the bits aren't used up, this isn't so bad) and you can lose your mind. Blasters? SR nerfs them even harder. Dominator types? More of the game is immune than normal(which is normally more than half), I also suspect you ban ways to get around immunity to enchantment/mind-affecting. You can't even reliably play party taxi! I also highly suspect dumb houserules on divination and buffing. What is the point of being a spellcaster under you? It just doesn't sounds fun at all, definitely for your average player who is more dangerous and more of a liability to your party than a psyker constantly pushing in the 40k systems. A dedicated optimizer has the only chance to be remotely useful under these circumstances.

Well, buffing spells weren't touched, at least under the rules he gave. Neither were the hidey-hole spells, like Rope Trick, Magnificent Mansion, ect. So clearly, the intended roile of casters is to act as buffers. So the best way to play a caster would be to Druidzilla it up, replacing Wild Shape with the Shapeshift Druid ACF.

Flickerdart

2014-07-13, 08:26 PM

Well, buffing spells weren't touched, at least under the rules he gave. Neither were the hidey-hole spells, like Rope Trick, Magnificent Mansion, ect. So clearly, the intended roile of casters is to act as buffers. So the best way to play a caster would be to Druidzilla it up, replacing Wild Shape with the Shapeshift Druid ACF.
Bear's Endurance? More like Orcus' Endurance. Mordenkainen's Magnificent Mansion? More like Orcus' Magnificent Mansion.

thethird

2014-07-13, 08:27 PM

Personally I would just be a druid from Siluvanedenn get greenbound summoning and pick grass as I walk to summon greenbound creatures.

Why?

Greenbound creatures hail from Siluvanedenn, so I can summon them.
Greenbound creatures are made of plants, so I can summon them using a plant as a spell component.
Greenbound creatures > Normal animal either way.

I would also be a total hippy and have plants growing on my person, for an emergency... you know?

jedipotter

2014-07-13, 08:30 PM

I don't like you because of this statement, I'm pretty sure Afroakuma would also be pretty upset. Not the point, really.

So, under your rules, enchantment now no longer affects Undead(the biggest creature type in the game), Constructs, Plants, Vermin, Oozes, Outsiders, and the dozens of misc monsters that are immune.

Bit of a jump. In my game, Elementals and Outsiders are not alive in the same way creatures from the Prime are alive. You can't use low level Prime spells to effect them. You can't use a Uncontrollable Laughter to make a tanar'ri as they don't feel 'laughter' like humans. You would need a higher level spell (aka Fendish Laugh) to do that.

Why would people want to be spellcasters under you?

Spellcasting is....awesome!

Even if they aren't 'Optimizing'(even if I you have to intentionally nerf yourself to not optimize someway), you neutered almost every classical archetype of caster.

Almost? What one did I miss?
[/QUOTE]

Well, buffing spells weren't touched, at least under the rules he gave. Neither were the hidey-hole spells, like Rope Trick, Magnificent Mansion, ect. So clearly, the intended roile of casters is to act as buffers. So the best way to play a caster would be to Druidzilla it up, replacing Wild Shape with the Shapeshift Druid ACF.

I don't think I have any buffing houserules...can't think of any. What is the problem here?

Rope Trick has a huge nerf, it should have been in the list of altered spells. Like the extra dimensional space is not 100% safe, you can't pull the rope up, must hold onto the rope, and it's short duration.

Faily

2014-07-13, 08:33 PM

*blinks*

Of all the spells to warrant a houserule... Rope Trick. Next you'll say that Cure spells have a 50% chance of being Inflict instead, because that damn healing makes things too easy.

*.*.*.*

2014-07-13, 08:37 PM

Almost? What one did I miss?

Useless PoS?

kellbyb

2014-07-13, 08:40 PM

You want to be a druid, right?

I was thinking about that, but now I'd like to be a sorcerer. BY tomorrow I'll probably have changed my mind again, so who knows what I'll stick with?

Oh, and unless you give us the houserules beforehand I don't think I can trust you not to keep them in a schrödinger-level state of uncertainty and change them, mid-game, at a whim.

Vhaidara

2014-07-13, 08:41 PM

Count me in! I'll make a fighter from a long line of extremely virile fighters who are known for taking multiple wives who are known for being very fertile. Because of this, they got lazy naming their children. But my fighter was the firstborn of his generation: Gen17 Sib1 Fighterson.

I'm not saying, but he may have siblings in case he dies to Orcus.

Oh, and he uses a Katena.

Alright, time to get to work on Gen17 Sib1 Fighterson, since clearly there is no disapproval of this plan. Yay, I got my cheating optimizer weapon through!

ereinion

2014-07-13, 08:46 PM

*blinks*

Of all the spells to warrant a houserule... Rope Trick. Next you'll say that Cure spells have a 50% chance of being Inflict instead, because that damn healing makes things too easy.
They become inflict spells if your deity doesn't like your actions. So no percentages there, just pure DM fiat (actually I think this is trye for all spells).

aleucard

2014-07-13, 09:03 PM

Since the previous topic has been moved from, I'll reply to something from it here.

At least it's only a .33% chance, and it's not arbitrary. By this thread's standards, that's just incredible. I'll admit I did kind of gloss over the part about the wizard blowing himself up, though, heh.

Most people have a field test for rules like this; I'll use the Deadly Melee Mishaps version for this example, but swapping it out should be easy if you can make the connection. The DM who wishes to implement a Mishap houserule with melee combat (or ranged combat, or most casting that doesn't involve UMD) is to set up ~20 Fighters (or Rangers, or Primary Casters) in an open field with 20 targets strewn about it with at least a 30' gap. The Fighters are to start swinging at their chosen target for about 10 minutes or so. If, at the end of the 10 minutes, any one of them is either dead or close to it, then that rule is not to be implemented for being too harsh. Sometimes, the dice hate the roller's existence. Unless if you are perfectly fine with a character popping because of such an occurrence (and also implementing it on NPCs as well), then don't do it.

Incidentally, I'd personally like for a mechanic for casters to do/allow the possibility of negative things happening to themselves in return for either boosting their current spells or casting a spell otherwise too high-level for them. One of the more iconic things for Fantasy is casters literally going Nova to power a specific spell or fight at a higher level than is safe. I'd like to codify this into DnD. Not only would it be at least somewhat appealing to the Optimizer crowd (giving them many more options and ways to implement them), but the Roleplayers would have an entirely new direction their characters can be taken. Personally, one of my favorite end-campaign ideas for how my character would die is to use mechanics like this to deliver the kind of Great Big Earth-Shattering KaBOOM (tm) that would be talked about forever in-game. Rather than riding the Nuke into the Portal as in the Avengers movie, I AM the Nuke. A more badass way to kill a Primary Caster character does not exist to my knowledge.

Somensjev

2014-07-13, 09:04 PM

i was gone for 3, maybe 4, hours, and you went from halfway down page 1, all the way to page 5 :smalleek:

Nilehus

2014-07-13, 09:08 PM

I really dislike the Critical Fumble rules. Fighters have it hard enough, now they're saying they're so inept that a level 20 fighter can accidentally chop off their foot.

There's still the omnipresent threat of Orcus when they swing, but they shouldn't be so clumsy they accidentally behead themselves.

Chaosvii7

2014-07-13, 09:09 PM

*blinks*

Of all the spells to warrant a houserule... Rope Trick. Next you'll say that Cure spells have a 50% chance of being Inflict instead, because that damn healing makes things too easy.

That's too easy of a houserule to guess; Besides, why not just cast Cure Light Orcus? It's clearly the more optimal spell in that kind of situation.

The answer is because you took the time to consider the spell to be optimal, you are considered cheating of the highest degree and must be punished. Rudisplorked.

I'm also unsure how in a game about group storytelling, one man basically takes the group out of storytelling and has invented a game where things just sort of happen with absolutely no direction. Literally, this sounds better as some sort of automated program that you and your players just show up to with snacks and watch. There's literally no input from anybody and the output is more random than playing the game entirely by the text with RAW vs RAI always favoring RAW.

Raven777

2014-07-13, 09:10 PM

Is this turning into D&D : Paranoia Edition?

jedipotter

2014-07-13, 09:14 PM

I was thinking about that, but now I'd like to be a sorcerer. BY tomorrow I'll probably have changed my mind again, so who knows what I'll stick with?

Oh, and unless you give us the houserules beforehand I don't think I can trust you not to keep them in a schrödinger-level state of uncertainty and change them, mid-game, at a whim.

I need to know your defination of ''house rules'' vs ''setting rules''.

Brookshw

2014-07-13, 09:17 PM

Indeed. Fallacious logic has no place in the real world, except insofar as it is used to make points in a poor manner. Good and healthful logic, the kind that doesn't use faulty premises and improperly supported conclusions, very much does have a place in the real world.

Actually an ad absurdum is a legitimate objection which is what he's proposed here. What bears evaluation are the premises and if its a true arguments.

Frankly this whole thing has become a colossal waste of time, not because of JP, but because people want to waste time regurgitating comments about orcus and cheating as if it adds something to the conversation. Alternatively if we wanted to discuss the pro's and con's of optimization in terms of a game/versimultude and where we find the game to change based upon such, that at least adds something of value.

Thurbane is also one of my favorite people on the forum (unashamed bias), not sure how someone levies any objection towards him.

As best I can tell through JP's grotesquely mutilated point is that certain game play styles are hurt by optimization and that optimization can restrict in game experiences (most notably, failing at something and the repercussions there of, for good, bad, fun, obnoxiousness).

Zaq

2014-07-13, 09:17 PM

Is this turning into D&D : Paranoia Edition?

Yes, with some Dwarf Fortress thrown in there for good measure.

Losing is fun.

Fun is mandatory, citizen.

kellbyb

2014-07-13, 09:17 PM

I need to know your defination of ''house rules'' vs ''setting rules''.

By house rules, I mean anything that isn't in the books. I've never heard of the term "setting rules", so I can't say anything about that.

Forrestfire

2014-07-13, 09:18 PM

A custom setting's rules are house rules, just like anything else a DM rules that's different from the default.

Vhaidara

2014-07-13, 09:18 PM

@ Jedipotter: We need to know every rule that is not in the published rules. Since those are the baseline, unless otherwise stated, they apply.

aleucard:

I disagree on fumbles, the extent of what my group does is that you roll a 1, you provoke AoO.

As far as the nova casting, I actually really like what Psionics does with Overchannel, and I feel if that was expanded (perhaps CL =1/2 levels, then you can Overchannel), it could simulate that.

It is worth noting that my favorite published Epic Spell is Vengeful Gaze of God. Just because the 2 mile range for 305d6 damage with 200d6 backlash is literally the nova blast spell.

kellbyb

2014-07-13, 09:22 PM

It is worth noting that my favorite published Epic Spell is Vengeful Gaze of God. Just because the 2 mile range for 305d6 damage with 200d6 backlash is literally the nova blast spell.

Yeah, that one was always my favorite. Never got a chance to use it in an actual campaign, though.

Vhaidara

2014-07-13, 09:24 PM

Also, because of the name, I always imagine you just look at them, fire a gigantic eye lazer at them, then dissolve.

Thurbane

2014-07-13, 09:24 PM

From previous topic (only just caught up):

Well, maybe more like: Don't expect to be a ''Teir 1'' type caster in my game. My rules make everyone much more level and balanced. No spellcaster dominates my game, without a LOT of work.
Hmm, sounds like you need to be, oh, I dunno, some kind of optimizer to make a T1 caster work in your games.

You forgot the house rule way back on page six or so : You can not eat up game time doing things for your character.
How does that work exactly? When a player tries to do something for his own character that you deem as "eats up time", do you simply say say "No, your character can't do that", or does a deity/Orcus/avatar of jedipotter appear and smite down the offender?

Brookshw

2014-07-13, 09:24 PM

i was gone for 3, maybe 4, hours, and you went from halfway down page 1, all the way to page 5 :smalleek:

Are you kidding? I started typing a post on page 3 and we were on 5 by the time I finished (damn phones)

jedipotter

2014-07-13, 09:29 PM

Since the previous topic has been moved from, I'll reply to something from it here.

Does ''topic'' even have a meaning on this thread? Post as you will...

Most people have a field test for rules

I did not make up my rules yesterday....

Incidentally, I'd personally like for a mechanic for casters to do/allow the possibility of negative things happening to themselves in return for either boosting their current spells or casting a spell otherwise too high-level for them.

[/QUOTE]

Casters have plenty of power now, they don't need a boost.

One of the more iconic things for Fantasy is casters literally going Nova to power a specific spell or fight at a higher level than is safe. I'd like to codify this into DnD. Not only would it be at least somewhat appealing to the Optimizer crowd (giving them many more options and ways to implement them), but the Roleplayers would have an entirely new direction their characters can be taken. Personally, one of my favorite end-campaign ideas for how my character would die is to use mechanics like this to deliver the kind of Great Big Earth-Shattering KaBOOM (tm) that would be talked about forever in-game. Rather than riding the Nuke into the Portal as in the Avengers movie, I AM the Nuke. A more badass way to kill a Primary Caster character does not exist to my knowledge.

Does not sound like a bad idea, just need an optimizer to come up with an idea.

I really dislike the Critical Fumble rules. Fighters have it hard enough, now they're saying they're so inept that a level 20 fighter can accidentally chop off their foot.

I've never used them

Alent

2014-07-13, 09:43 PM

Does ''topic'' even have a meaning on this thread? Post as you will...

We have been on a host of tangents, haven't we.

Incidentally, I'd personally like for a mechanic for casters to do/allow the possibility of negative things happening to themselves in return for either boosting their current spells or casting a spell otherwise too high-level for them.

A while back I asked for people to point me to non-vancian subsystems in D&D/D20 system games, and one of the systems that someone pointed me to was the Quintessential Chaos Mage:
http://grandwiki.wikidot.com/qcmg
The class description link hasn't been updated since the page got renamed, evidently: http://www.purpleduckgames.com/chaos-mage

I haven't looked at terribly closely yet (been saving it until I actually start working on overhauling my vancian casters), but it seems to have some interesting/crazy variants on the idea of wild/out of control power at just a skim.

The balance is a little off, but since you're overruling RAW/RAI/RATCHB (rules as they could have been) so aggressively it might not even be an issue.

Necroticplague

2014-07-13, 09:44 PM

I need to know your defination of ''house rules'' vs ''setting rules''.

Well, a houserule is any rule that it is not in the books, and is thus a different way of playing than from what is usually presumed. A setting rule is a rule that exists because of the setting. If the setting is one of your own making, than all of the former will include the later. However, their can be setting rules that aren't houserules: like in Eberron, only certain races can have dragonmarks. Or if your adventure took place on plane of Void, saying living creatures take 1d6 damage a round and you can decide your own gravity.

Vhaidara

2014-07-13, 09:47 PM

Well, a houserule is any rule that it is not in the books, and is thus a different way of playing than from what is usually presumed. A setting rule is a rule that exists because of the setting. If the setting is one of your own making, than all of the former will include the later. However, their can be setting rules that aren't houserules: like in Eberron, only certain races can have dragonmarks. Or if your adventure took place on plane of Void, saying living creatures take 1d6 damage a round and you can decide your own gravity.

And houserules also cover any changes you make to existing settings that you didn't make. So if you have rules associated with Forgotten Realms that you consider "setting rules" that are not published (such as outsiders being immune to numerous enchantments that they normally aren't), that is still a houserule.

Thurbane

2014-07-13, 10:00 PM

Alright, time to get to work on Gen17 Sib1 Fighterson, since clearly there is no disapproval of this plan. Yay, I got my cheating optimizer weapon through!
Is your fighter going to have all 3s for abilities? I've heard a character like this can be fun.

I did not make up my rules yesterday....
I dunno, seems like some get made up on the spot as a response to a poster who raises a spell/issue you haven't previously mentioned.

Necroticplague

2014-07-13, 10:02 PM

I dunno, seems like some get made up on the spot as a response to a poster who raises a spell/issue you haven't previously mentioned.

Like the one about Celerity, which was as vague as it was unmentioned until the spell was brought up.

Vhaidara

2014-07-13, 10:04 PM

Is your fighter going to have all 3s for abilities? I've heard a character like this can be fun.

Of course! The Fighterson family obtained it's reputation as legendary fighters through sheer virility and numbers! The patriarch of the family is like Walder Frey! They role play their way to victory. After all, when you write a 5 page poem about your sword cleaving the earth in half, who cares if you aren't strong enough to lift said sword?

jedipotter

2014-07-13, 10:06 PM

How does that work exactly? When a player tries to do something for his own character that you deem as "eats up time", do you simply say say "No, your character can't do that", or does a deity/Orcus/avatar of jedipotter appear and smite down the offender?

That is close to how it works:

7PM: DM and players 1 to 4 are getting ready to raid a hobgoblin camp. Everyone is exicited and looking forward to the combat for the last hour. Enter Player 5:

Player 5: "Dur, hey I did not stock up on my spell components when I should have at 6pm when the whole group was in town, you know back when I was goofing off and watching You Tube videos. Can we say I go back to town on go shopping?"

DM-"No, your at the edge of the hobgoblin camp with the rest of the group.''

Thurbane

2014-07-13, 10:07 PM

Of course! The Fighterson family obtained it's reputation as legendary fighters through sheer virility and numbers! The patriarch of the family is like Walder Frey! They role play their way to victory. After all, when you write a 5 page poem about your sword cleaving the earth in half, who cares if you aren't strong enough to lift said sword?
Great. :smallsmile:

Although all 3s fighters have been known to spontaneously polymorph into halflings with less than 10s. Just make sure you make your will save so you don't lose your mind and start believing you actually are a halfling with less than 10s.

Vhaidara

2014-07-13, 10:11 PM

Great. :smallsmile:

Although all 3s fighters have been known to spontaneously polymorph into halflings with less than 10s. Just make sure you make your will save so you don't lose your mind and start believing you actually are a halfling with less than 10s.

I know! That's how they lost Gen 13 Sib 74 Fighterson!

@Jedipotter: Again, you are now talking about them simply being *****, which has nothing almost nothing to do with being a caster.

*.*.*.*

2014-07-13, 10:12 PM

That is close to how it works:

7PM: DM and players 1 to 4 are getting ready to raid a hobgoblin camp. Everyone is exicited and looking forward to the combat for the last hour. Enter Player 5:

Player 5: "Dur, hey I did not stock up on my spell components when I should have at 6pm when the whole group was in town, you know back when I was goofing off and watching You Tube videos. Can we say I go back to town on go shopping?"

DM-"No, your at the edge of the hobgoblin camp with the rest of the group.''

It must suck to roleplay a caster in your games, not only are you powerless; but you must spend any time you could be roleplaying in town by looking for bat poop and other obscure crap.

Divide by Zero

2014-07-13, 10:13 PM

Incidentally, I'd personally like for a mechanic for casters to do/allow the possibility of negative things happening to themselves in return for either boosting their current spells or casting a spell otherwise too high-level for them. One of the more iconic things for Fantasy is casters literally going Nova to power a specific spell or fight at a higher level than is safe. I'd like to codify this into DnD. Not only would it be at least somewhat appealing to the Optimizer crowd (giving them many more options and ways to implement them), but the Roleplayers would have an entirely new direction their characters can be taken. Personally, one of my favorite end-campaign ideas for how my character would die is to use mechanics like this to deliver the kind of Great Big Earth-Shattering KaBOOM (tm) that would be talked about forever in-game. Rather than riding the Nuke into the Portal as in the Avengers movie, I AM the Nuke. A more badass way to kill a Primary Caster character does not exist to my knowledge.

Nothing immediately comes to mind with standard pre-epic magic, but psionics has Overchannel and Wilders as a starting point, at least.

Thurbane

2014-07-13, 10:26 PM

@Jedipotter: Again, you are now talking about them simply being *****, which has nothing almost nothing to do with being a caster.
Exactly.

And this isn't a "houserule", it's dealing with a disruptive player by interacting with him as a DM. I would do the same/similar if anyone was doing this in my games.

Mind you, I'd probably deal with it at the time the rest of the party was shopping rather than after - "Hey Bob, you wanna get off Youtube for a bit? The party is in town buying supplies and material components - better get what you need or you won't have the components later on". Not sure if this is how it went down an JP's table.

In any case, though, I wouldn't make a player waste time that could be spent role playing or "roll playing" on something as trivial as spell components in the first place. I personally don't consider playing out haggling with a shopkeep for an extended period a particularly fun part of the game for a player, the DM or the rest of the group. Shopping trips are part of the game, but my group tries to keep them as brief as possible. I think significantly eating into precious gaming time so that someone can simply use his class features to be extremely counterproductive. But then again, I don;t have a hate on for casters, and the players who take casters in my game all stick to our gentlemen's agreement about OP or disruptive spells. I didn't have to create a tome of houserules to accomplish this, merely discuss things over with people like a civilized adult.

FidgetySquirrel

2014-07-13, 10:49 PM

Sorry everyone, this one's gonna be a bit of a wall o' text. I had to go to work on page 49 of the old thread and have some quoting to do.

Only cheating optimizers use dice. Real roleplayers kneel before the altar of Orcus and beg for merciful judgment.I really do want to sig this, by the way.

Aww man. I'd better run away and go find some more Squirrel parts in the Forest of Ten Million Squirrels. Is it possible to find any Squirrel parts here?
Speaking for all squirrels in this playground, I think it's safe to say "Squirrel harvesting is unacceptable, have some Orcus!"

Most people have a field test for rules like this; I'll use the Deadly Melee Mishaps version for this example, but swapping it out should be easy if you can make the connection. The DM who wishes to implement a Mishap houserule with melee combat (or ranged combat, or most casting that doesn't involve UMD) is to set up ~20 Fighters (or Rangers, or Primary Casters) in an open field with 20 targets strewn about it with at least a 30' gap. The Fighters are to start swinging at their chosen target for about 10 minutes or so. If, at the end of the 10 minutes, any one of them is either dead or close to it, then that rule is not to be implemented for being too harsh. Sometimes, the dice hate the roller's existence. Unless if you are perfectly fine with a character popping because of such an occurrence (and also implementing it on NPCs as well), then don't do it.So, assuming the wizard will always die on a misdirected spell, that's about 6x as lethal as it should be, by the field test's standards... I think. At any rate, like I said, I generally agreed with the post, but kind of skimmed through the 'off the top of Wardog's head' spell failure proposal. I personally wouldn't use it as is, but there's potential there. I find the death potential to be too high without further modification. If I have a chance, maybe I'll go all out and make a d% table for it, cuz I do love going overboard with things!

I take it Kantolin forgot to turn the Orcus off on the way out?

Seriously, people? You started the new thread without me? For Orcus' sake!

aleucard

2014-07-13, 10:58 PM

Also, because of the name, I always imagine you just look at them, fire a gigantic eye lazer at them, then dissolve.

Wanna know what this reminds me of? A less spammable version of this. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xpTPpglhKsE)

Incidentally, I've always liked the thought of making Summoning actually bloody MEAN something. Basically, nerf the generic Summons and have Aeons/Eidolons/whatever the @#$% you want to call them available if the character is willing to go through a side-quest to get access or the DM is willing to allow the PC to write completing it into their backstory. There should be a Summon [insert name for True Summon here] spell for each that adjusts the power of the Summon to what Level you cast it out of (always Spontaneous, doesn't count against Spells Known). The Summon would be DM-Controlled and not as obligated to follow orders as Generic Summons (though if the character has good relations with [insert True Summon name here] or at least Summons for a worthy cause). If a mechanic for allowing non-Casters to Summon this kind of beastie is desired, then there could be Penalties imposed on the Summoner while the beastie is out, or maybe the two actually get swapped (which would have the Player have much more control over their actions). If the Summoner starts doing crap the Summon doesn't like, priveliges could be restricted or eventually revoked.

FidgetySquirrel

2014-07-13, 11:03 PM

That sounds like a pretty cool idea. It adds RP value, and has the added benefit of making summoning seem less... vanilla. My players don't really use summoning much, so if anyone else tries this, let me know how it works, please!

ddude987

2014-07-13, 11:05 PM

So... about that crockpot...

FidgetySquirrel

2014-07-13, 11:38 PM

I personally don't consider playing out haggling with a shopkeep for an extended period a particularly fun part of the game for a player, the DM or the rest of the group. My group hates RPing shopping with such a passion that, unless there's some kind of haggling or appraising or whatever that needs to be done, that I've pretty much allowed that part of the game to devolve to this.

Player: Can I buy X anywhere around here?
Me: (depending on whether the character's been there before or something) Either give me a search check, yes, or no.
Etc.

georgie_leech

2014-07-13, 11:47 PM

My group hates RPing shopping with such a passion that, unless there's some kind of haggling or appraising or whatever that needs to be done, that I've pretty much allowed that part of the game to devolve to this.

Player: Can I buy X anywhere around here?
Me: (depending on whether the character's been there before or something) Either give me a search check, yes, or no.
Etc.

I find shopping trips, especially for rare items, a good way to introduce NPC's, but if I don't have any particular importance attached to it I generally just abstract it.

Nilehus

2014-07-14, 12:14 AM

Seriously, people? You started the new thread without me? For Orcus' sake!

To be fair, it was Svata. I think. The rest of us just followed them and left you completely alone. :smallsmile:

I'm wondering if these people are actually crazy enough to play...

Jeff the Green

2014-07-14, 12:38 AM

I had to go to work on page 49 of the old thread and have some quoting to do.
I know; me too.

Actually an ad absurdum is a legitimate objection which is what he's proposed here. What bears evaluation are the premises and if its a true arguments.

Reductio ad absurdum is only valid when it's not a strawman. jedipotter's argument was a strawman because no one who understands logic has said that an argument necessarily has a true conclusion if it's valid (the conclusion logically follows from the conclusions). An argument must be sound (valid and the premises are true) in order to guarantee that the conclusions are true.

That's just another layer of jedipotter's byzantine despotism. He makes you do stuff he hates so that when you do the stuff he can go "aha, a problem player!" and get rid of you.

One of the preferred tactics of despots is to institute laws against things you can't help but do so that they can punish whomever they want for whatever reason they want without looking like they actually are a despot. I suspect this is half the point of jedipotter's houserules.

I'd see through the cardboard plan and stop you.
:smallannoyed: You are not a mindreader. As much risk as you build into the game (which you've indicated is both exceedingly great and intentional on your part) you only have to be slightly more aggressive/careless than normal to guarantee a TPK over the course of a session. Without reading minds, you cannot tell whether this is because eggynack is roleplaying an aggressive or careless character or because he's a jackass.

Flickerdart

2014-07-14, 12:59 AM

I really do want to sig this, by the way.
I would put a note that tells people it's okay to sig the stuff I say without asking for permission, but that would be too arrogant even for me.

Somensjev

2014-07-14, 01:09 AM

I would put a note that tells people it's okay to sig the stuff I say without asking for permission, but that would be too arrogant even for me.

you probably should, or else half the thread will be people asking to sig you :smallwink:

Nilehus

2014-07-14, 01:34 AM

I felt like being meta.

Fidgety, is my quoting you in my signature cool? I did it before I realized it was Flicker that gave the all-clear. It's late, and your names are kinda similar.

FidgetySquirrel

2014-07-14, 01:46 AM

I felt like being meta.

Fidgety, is my quoting you in my signature cool? I did it before I realized it was Flicker that gave the all-clear. It's late, and your names are kinda similar.Oh, absolutely. As far as I'm concerned, if I said it, let it end up where it may.

Cronocke

2014-07-14, 02:12 AM

Wanna know what this reminds me of? A less spammable version of this. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xpTPpglhKsE)

Incidentally, I've always liked the thought of making Summoning actually bloody MEAN something. Basically, nerf the generic Summons and have Aeons/Eidolons/whatever the @#$% you want to call them available if the character is willing to go through a side-quest to get access or the DM is willing to allow the PC to write completing it into their backstory. There should be a Summon [insert name for True Summon here] spell for each that adjusts the power of the Summon to what Level you cast it out of (always Spontaneous, doesn't count against Spells Known). The Summon would be DM-Controlled and not as obligated to follow orders as Generic Summons (though if the character has good relations with [insert True Summon name here] or at least Summons for a worthy cause). If a mechanic for allowing non-Casters to Summon this kind of beastie is desired, then there could be Penalties imposed on the Summoner while the beastie is out, or maybe the two actually get swapped (which would have the Player have much more control over their actions). If the Summoner starts doing crap the Summon doesn't like, priveliges could be restricted or eventually revoked.

Honestly? I'd rather just have the Summoner class from Pathfinder, and replace the spell-like Summon Monster dailies with something else that can be used at the same time as the Eidolon.

Chaosvii7

2014-07-14, 02:32 AM

Honestly? I'd rather just have the Summoner class from Pathfinder, and replace the spell-like Summon Monster dailies with something else that can be used at the same time as the Eidolon.

You mean the Summoner's uncanny ability to summon Orcus up to 3 + CHA mod times per day? What more could you want?

Somensjev

2014-07-14, 03:03 AM

You mean the Summoner's uncanny ability to summon Orcus up to 3 + CHA mod times per day? What more could you want?

or, if you really want to be powerful, you can summon up to 3 + CHA mod orci (orcus's, orcuses, orca?) at once, but you're useless for the rest of the day :smallwink:

Oddman80

2014-07-14, 06:29 AM

New "wishful thinking" theory. Jedi doesn't believe any of what he's been saying (hence the contradictory positions and lack of logic). This whole thing is just a bet he had with his buddy "Kyle" or "Rick". Proving that he could in fact make a flame thread run for a full 50 pages without getting locked down or banned (something that Pickford and Visigani were never able to achieve). The few other posts on other threads were just planting the seeds for this one - his masterwork. As soon as we get bumped to the second thread, he will come forward and admit as much.... I know.... Not very likely. I just like happy endings I guess.

Doctor: "Elephants are Pink."
Doctor: "Nelly is an Elephant."
Doctor: "Therefore, Nelly is Pink.''
Davros "Of course!''
Doctor: "Know what a human would say to that?"
Random nearby human "Elephants aren't Pink......"
I was thinking that, logically, since the thread is now up to page 7 (EPL 58), that my wishful thinking had proven to be false. But then I saw Jedipotter's explanation about how logic works in the real world and have thus realized that my wishful thinking was actually just a pink elephant.... So I guess I gave that going for me.

Threadnaught

2014-07-14, 06:35 AM

So in your game, at the DM's whim, you can screw with a player? And you think 1% per spell level chance of something going wrong is bad?

No, I offered the player a choice. For 2gp, they could either take a normal Dagger, or a Magic Dagger with the Returning property. When a DM offers you a Magic Weapon at 1st level, you should either be suspicious, or your DM is Monty Haul.
I rarely give loot. So the player's instinct was to be suspicious of the offer, but out of curiousity he chose to accept.

What happens is, if he fails the daily Fortitude Save, he takes Dexterity Damage. The item itself conforms to Cursed Item rules. It isn't at my whim, it's by random chance that something bad can happen.

Oh come on, that would not even be a challange for me......

Of course, we'd require an independent adjudicator to score each player.

Players who are playing Jerk Players must go in with characters made for D&D3.5, the player who is playing Jerk DM, must run a Campaign. Players will be scored on how effective they are at ruining others' fun, how stylishly they can ruin others' fun and how descreetly they can ruin others' fun.

Who could do the scoring?

Also, is anyone going to be playing an Artificer or Warblade? We've already got a Druid and Fighter, now we just need a Wizard, Commoner, Artificer and Warblade.

I do believe I'm in the lead, and we haven't even started playing yet. :smallbiggrin:

ddude987

2014-07-14, 07:40 AM

or, if you really want to be powerful, you can summon up to 3 + CHA mod orci (orcus's, orcuses, orca?) at once, but you're useless for the rest of the day :smallwink:

Orca? Whales fall, you die :smallbiggrin:

Oddman80

2014-07-14, 07:40 AM

Also, is anyone going to be playing an Artificer or Warblade? We've already got a Druid and Fighter, now we just need a Wizard, Commoner, Artificer and Warblade.

I do believe I'm in the lead, and we haven't even started playing yet. :smallbiggrin:

Umm. Yes please. 1 Azerblood Commoner, with Profession: Dirt Farmer, and Earth Devotion coming up.

Forrestfire

2014-07-14, 07:46 AM

Orca? Whales fall, you die :smallbiggrin:

Oh no, not again...

ddude987

2014-07-14, 07:47 AM

Umm. Yes please. 1 Azerblood Commoner, with Profession: Dirt Farmer, and Earth Devotion coming up.

I'll be Wizard! *enter Orcus* Scratch that warblade here I come!

Oh no, not again...

There is a funny campaign quotes - no context thread, but there should be a funny giantitp post - no context thread

Necroticplague

2014-07-14, 08:01 AM

Depending on ECL, I'd be willing to play either a monk or a dread necromancer.

ddude987

2014-07-14, 08:03 AM

Okay I must be honest, I have no idea what the whole I'll play what is about... can someone bless me with some context?

Oddman80

2014-07-14, 09:01 AM

Okay I must be honest, I have no idea what the whole I'll play what is about... can someone bless me with some context?

Jedipotter, whether joking or not at the time said that Threadnaught needed to try a Play by Post with him. A few others chimed in with interest... at least for now, it seems like its really going to be a thing. we'll see.

Participating players have requested to see full list of houserules (and setting rules), and it seems like its supposed to be a purposefully broken campaign, with both players trying to screw things up and DM trying to remove player agency to the best of his ability while sticking to the posted house-rules.

This should be a hyperbolic example of everything discussed in the threads thus far. I was planning on watching from the sidelines... but then the possibility of playing a Dirt Farming Commoner came up... and well, how can you pass that up?

BTW, Jedipotter, as a dirt farming commoner, I get proficiency with a single simple weapon. I could just pick up a heavy mace... but I would really be most familiar with Shovels. I know its not typically a weapon, but it seems like it would be statted like a heavy mace (one or two handed capability, bludgeoning, small size = 1d6 damage). Would you allow me to be a shovel-fighter without treating it as an improvised weapon? I will have a +1 LA, 0 BAB, and +0 to all saves (pre- ability modifiers)... seems like being able to use the implement I work with all day without penalty would be fair, no?

ddude987

2014-07-14, 09:57 AM

Oh... then I'm actually interested in that if I can join. I would be a warblade if that's one of the things the group wanted.

edit: also what is the point of a list of houserules if JP said he believes houserules are always changing and can be changed on the fly?

WesleyVos

2014-07-14, 11:49 AM

I want into this game as well, presuming I can see a full list of the houserules first. I call a rogue/swordsage multiclass build. That, or a Dragonfire Inspiration Bard.

Oddman80

2014-07-14, 12:03 PM

Been working out some background info on my commoner/dirt farmer.
Dirt Farming Commoner Business Plan:
Live in town w/ 400 homes.
Start w/ 20 gp from class.
Borrow 20 gp from moneylender @ 50% interest/month.

Buy cart - 15 gp
Buy donkey - 8 gp
Buy 3 shovels - 6 gp

Buy feed - 1.5 gp/month
Hire 1 skilled Laborers - 9 gp/month
Hire 1 unskilled Laborer - 3 gp/month

Collect everyone's waste in town, for 1 sp/household/week... This = 40 gp/week, or 160 gp/ month. This task uses the untrained laborer, donkey and cart. Collecting waste from 80 homes/day.

Waste is brought to the dirt farm where I, and skilled laborer mix it with soil, to create compost through weekly craft checks, using skill Craft: Compost.

Taking a 10 on this skill, allows each of us to craft 100 sp worth of compost/week.
This comes out to a total of 80 gp/week. That I sell to the local farmers

Income generated in first month =240 gp
- 30 to pay back moneylender
- 12 to pay laborers
- 2 for feed for the donkey
- 26 for meals for me and my laborers
=170 gp profit

After the first month, I'm bringing in 200 gp/month.

My character is 24 years old. He's been "dirt farming" for 6 years now.
He has a net worth of 14,370 gp.

Vhaidara

2014-07-14, 12:06 PM

How dare you assume the existence of moneylenders, laborers (skilled and unskilled), donkeys, waste products, or commoners! Cheater cheater pumpkin eater!

Threadnaught

2014-07-14, 12:08 PM

Oh... then I'm actually interested in that if I can join. I would be a warblade if that's one of the things the group wanted.

Warblade because jedipotter hates Tome of Battle and doesn't allow it. Commoner because of the whole discussion about Commoners and not allowing them with any Feats other than Skill Focus (Profession: Farming), Wizard because he has no idea what it means to be a Tier 1 Caster, Artificer because he hates it for being about making Magic Items, Fighter because he insists 3 in all stats can be fun for Fighters and Druid because it's the Class most screwed over by his house rules.

also what is the point of a list of houserules if JP said he believes houserules are always changing and can be changed on the fly?

Exactly, plus it's expected that he'll come up with a whole bunch of new house rules that enterprising players will find their way around, during the game.
So we've got enough players to play as "players" and jedipotter is happy to play as the "DM", we just need a GM to make sure we have someone in charge of the scoring system.

Rules are to be finalized by the GM, whoever that may be.

At the moment, players playing as the "players" are to imitate a party in a real campaign, while the player playing as "DM" is to imitate a DM running a real campaign.

jedipotter

2014-07-14, 12:32 PM

Orca? Whales fall, you die :smallbiggrin:

Orcanado!

Okay I must be honest, I have no idea what the whole I'll play what is about... can someone bless me with some context?

Context here on this thread?!

Oddman80

2014-07-14, 12:33 PM

How dare you assume the existence of moneylenders, laborers (skilled and unskilled), donkeys, waste products, or commoners! Cheater cheater pumpkin eater!

The biggest offender in the plan was probably just assuming I could take 10 on a skill check. That's fine - I just didn't want to "eat up game time" with me and my hireling's craft checks... Truth is, even if we managed to fail all 8 of the first month's craft checks, we still are making enough money from the waste collection service to pay off the debt, and make profit. The actual "Dirt Farming"/Composting is just gravy on top (ewww). I assume I am putting max ranks in Craft:Composting, as would my skilled laborer. If I purchase Masterwork Tools for the two of us to use (i.e., some thermal blankets to help keep in the heat for the compost piles - makes them decompose faster), we're down to a 15% chance of failure on any given craft check, if we are required to roll. But requiring us to roll also gives us a 35% chance of making twice as much compost in a given week. So honestly - I was just being conservative.

Now I will admit - I didn't take Skill Focus:Craft Compost (i.e. dirt farming) mainly because it wasn't all that helpful to the dirt farming itself. I thought that earth devotion had a similarly useless nature to it - and fit thematically. Plus - I could use it any time i needed to do a craft check in pouring rain where the ground is all muddy. I thought it would also be nice if later on (level 10) the useless feat gained some sort of beneficial nature to the character.

Besides... my character has dreams:
http://th05.deviantart.net/fs70/PRE/f/2013/113/e/5/shovel_knight_by_goldendaniel-d62t8g5.jpg

ddude987

2014-07-14, 12:44 PM

So are we actually doing this campaign JP? Do you have any expectations on when all the rules and funsies will be out?

Svata

2014-07-14, 12:47 PM

Besides... my character has dreams:
http://th05.deviantart.net/fs70/PRE/f/2013/113/e/5/shovel_knight_by_goldendaniel-d62t8g5.jpg

Well, my day was just made. Anyone else?

Nilehus

2014-07-14, 12:49 PM

Besides... my character has dreams:
http://th05.deviantart.net/fs70/PRE/f/2013/113/e/5/shovel_knight_by_goldendaniel-d62t8g5.jpg

If this happens, please, please tell me you'll do shovel related puns.

"Say goodnight, you son of a ditch."
"I'm really digging this fight!"
"Want to see how to make a holy bartender?"

Lord Haart

2014-07-14, 12:54 PM

and it seems like its supposed to be a purposefully broken campaign, with both players trying to screw things up and DM trying to remove player agency to the best of his ability while sticking to the posted house-rules.
Which, in my opinion, prompts the appearance of That One Player. You know, the one who'll give his character a non-sardonic backstory and a class that has not been mentioned in this or previous thread, avoid all optimisation routes that contain even a little bit of lactose and proceed to play the game with a total focus on events and roleplaying (not to imply that other players won't roleplay their best — no Stormwind Fallacy from me — but here i'm talking about exalted roleplaying in vein of "My spells don't work as they've always had? Somebody must be interfering with the Weave, so i'd better not cast anything until i can be sure there'll be no dangerous mishaps. All my actions seem to be irrelevant and lead to a predetermined outcome? Now to go ponder destiny in a lenght…"). No provocations, and his only response to any rule arguements would be "well, the DM must be right, he's the DM and he knows better how to make it all fun".
After all, it's not like sir Jedipotter doesn't have an extensive experience dealing with problem players; it's a problem problem player that could be a problem. And an experiment needs its control group, right?

I would gladly play the part myself but first, i don't feel qualified (too many accounts of me going on principle to make sure everyone's explicitly playing by the same rules) and second, this summer is rife with IRL business.

Oddman80

2014-07-14, 12:55 PM

If this happens, please, please tell me you'll do shovel related puns.

"Say goodnight, you son of a ditch."
"I'm really digging this fight!"
"Want to see how to make a holy bartender?"

Check out my shiny brand new +1 Shovel... This thing is really groundbreaking.

Threadnaught

2014-07-14, 12:57 PM

So are we actually doing this campaign JP? Do you have any expectations on when all the rules and funsies will be out?

We do require an independent adjudicator to be responsible for how the game of Who can be the Biggest Jerk, is scored. Then we can begin.

FidgetySquirrel

2014-07-14, 01:01 PM

I feel like I'm not awesome enough to play in the PbP, but if it gets started, I sure hope someone links to it. Ya know, for research...

Arbane

2014-07-14, 01:06 PM

Besides... my character has dreams:
http://th05.deviantart.net/fs70/PRE/f/2013/113/e/5/shovel_knight_by_goldendaniel-d62t8g5.jpg

"It's a Vorpal Halberd!" (http://rustyandco.com/comic/level-6-5/)

jedipotter

2014-07-14, 01:16 PM

So are we actually doing this campaign JP? Do you have any expectations on when all the rules and funsies will be out?

I'm up for it! Sounds like fun. Of course any player that 'must' see all the house rules is a cheating optimizer and can't play. But anyone else, the game is open too.

I sure hope your dirt farmer takes the feat Dirty Fighting.....

We do require an independent adjudicator to be responsible for how the game of Who can be the Biggest Jerk, is scored. Then we can begin.

Like a Player Adjudicator to be the Almighty DM's assistant ? I can go for that.

Oddman80

2014-07-14, 01:19 PM

"It's a Vorpal Halberd!" (http://rustyandco.com/comic/level-6-5/)

CAN.... YOU....
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-C_sxb7sLUNw/UwzCP8yopKI/AAAAAAAAElk/1kWq8KllhSw/s1600/cyrus5.jpg

Vhaidara

2014-07-14, 01:21 PM

I'm up for it! Sounds like fun. Of course any player that 'must' see all the house rules is a cheating optimizer and can't play. But anyone else, the game is open too.

I sure hope your dirt farmer takes the feat Dirty Fighting.....

One moment, let me get this formalized.
Do you, jedipotter, accept the responsibility of GMing a campaign where your players will consist of a Fighter with all 3s for ability scores, a Commoner, a Wizard, a Warblade, an Artificer, and a Druid?

Respond with either "I do" or "I do not".

Threadnaught

2014-07-14, 01:24 PM

Like a Player Adjudicator to be the Almighty DM's assistant ? I can go for that.

Nah, just someone who isn't actually playing, to watch and score players for their actions depending on how they screw over others. And to help encourage all players to maintain the illusion of a game of D&D.

You're still just a player, remember? You get to play as "DM" while the rest of the players are playing as "players".

One moment, let me get this formalized.
Do you, jedipotter, accept the responsibility of GMing a campaign where your players will consist of a Fighter with all 3s for ability scores, a Commoner, a Wizard, a Warblade, an Artificer, and a Druid?

Respond with either "I do" or "I do not".

He has to if he wants to play as the "DM".

How he feels about it is something entirely different. :smallamused:

jedipotter

2014-07-14, 01:25 PM

One moment, let me get this formalized.
Do you, jedipotter, accept the responsibility of GMing a campaign where your players will consist of a Fighter with all 3s for ability scores, a Commoner, a Wizard, a Warblade, an Artificer, and a Druid?

Respond with either "I do" or "I do not".

Well....I don't have a Tome of Battle(hate that book) so I'd just need to homebrew/make up what a ''warblade'' does(they have like Leadership and lead armies in war, but are useless in one on one fights right?)

So....with the above ''I do''

ddude987

2014-07-14, 01:26 PM

Well I was going to join and play warblade... but you don't have the book... good thing warblade was released by WoTC as free content online. Looking for link now here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20060802a&page=2) it is. Free content published by WoTC. You can't say you don't have the content now.

Vhaidara

2014-07-14, 01:29 PM

Also, you just described the marshal. The warblade is... almost the exact opposite of that

torrasque666

2014-07-14, 01:29 PM

you're thinkin Warlord there JP. And what was that you were saying earlier about "They got books? I got more."

Guancyto

2014-07-14, 01:30 PM

I was just introduced to this thread and to be honest, I'm a little fascinated and a little horrified.

I mean, I know he's totally unable to see that nearly all of the problems he encounters in his games are the logical result of things he himself has done, but y'all have been mocking him to his face for fifty-eight pages.

And are starting a PbP game to do so further. ._.

It's like the D&D version of Spartan (http://thepunchlineismachismo.com/archives/comic/it-ends-in-triumph) Gay (http://thepunchlineismachismo.com/archives/comic/never-give-up-never-surrender) Chicken (http://thepunchlineismachismo.com/archives/comic/gay-chicken-needs-to-end-so-i-can-start-using-kratos-for-other-things).

"Consensus on the debut of this game was that Spartan Gay Chicken ends in a 30 year committed relationship complete with bickering over when to open a joint bank account and where to place the ottoman."

ddude987

2014-07-14, 01:32 PM

Here's the srubbed, and here's a full list of scrubbedthey can learn. And, IIRC, the warblade is also available on the WotC website for free.

EDIT: Also, you just described the marshal. The warblade is... almost the exact opposite of that

I would stay away from posting links to that website. It is (afaik) frowned upon. Its kind of like talking not talking about fight magical pony club.

Necroticplague

2014-07-14, 01:40 PM

In a more official source, the maneuvers were released as maneuver cards here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20061225a).

thethird

2014-07-14, 01:53 PM

ddude987

2014-07-14, 02:04 PM

And also in an official source the class itself... warblade (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20060802a&page=2)

Since there hasn't been anyone claiming the artificer spot I may consider rolling one, once again depending on houserules and stuff.

Taking the houserules into consideration makes you a dirty unfair Cheatyface (http://magiccards.info/query?q=cheaty+face&v=card&s=cname)

edit: I really need to use bluetext more before someone misinterprets these accusations

Mystic Muse

2014-07-14, 02:06 PM

Hey, I have an idea.

Why don't you guys do two campaigns?

Campaign 1: Jedipotter's houserules, all the stuff you're planning now.

Campaign 2: NONE of Jedipotter's houserules, except ones the players specifically agree are fine, no changing the results through DM fiat.

This would prove 2 things.

1. You guys can be perfectly civil when you play, Jedipotter's rules aren't necessary.
2. Jedipotter's rules don't actually prevent all problem players from joining his campaign.

Jaxzan Proditor

2014-07-14, 02:47 PM

Check out my shiny brand new +1 Shovel... This thing is really groundbreaking.

I laughed so hard at this. You should come up with more! :smallsmile:

ddude987

2014-07-14, 02:51 PM

So JP, with the now added information, and knowing the fact that there will be a warblade (the class, as written) in your campaign reguardless, will you allow warblade instead of homebrewing an entirely new class? Please respond with a simple "yes, I will allow warblade from ToB in my campaign" or "No, I will not allow warblade from ToB in my campaign"

Necroticplague

2014-07-14, 03:01 PM

Well....I don't have a Tome of Battle(hate that book) so I'd just need to homebrew/make up what a ''warblade'' does(they have like Leadership and lead armies in war, but are useless in one on one fights right?)

...Why/how do you hate something you have no understanding of? Your example of what you think warblade does shows a drastic lack of knowlege, so how could you know it enough to have reasons for hating it?

ddude987

2014-07-14, 03:03 PM

inb4 OP thinks overpowered and/or to similar to 4th edition

FidgetySquirrel

2014-07-14, 03:41 PM

...Why/how do you hate something you have no understanding of? Your example of what you think warblade does shows a drastic lack of knowlege, so how could you know it enough to have reasons for hating it?IIRC correctly, he did say he's read the book. Apologies if I'm mistaken, I just don't want to trudge through all of those posts just to try and find jedipotter saying that.

I would also say, providing my first statement is actually correct, of course, that mistaking the class features of a class you homebrewed out of the game with the features of some other class is quite understandable.

Well, you'd have to find The Secret Chamber of Secret House Rules in the game.I don't know what's happening, but I think I'm actually starting to like you.

Kantolin

2014-07-14, 04:59 PM

Yigads this topic moves quickly.

Although at a cursory glance, I didn't actually get a response again (more of a hand wave), so I think there's nothing waiting on me anyway. I had the horrifying thought that actual counterpoints were raised against my points or something. :smallsmile:

Game sounds... uh, interesting.

sakuuya

2014-07-14, 05:28 PM

I'm up for it! Sounds like fun. Of course any player that 'must' see all the house rules is a cheating optimizer and can't play. But anyone else, the game is open too.

You're still just a player, remember? You get to play as "DM" while the rest of the players are playing as "players"

Do these two statements mean that the DM a cheating optimizer and can't play if he knows all his own house rules?

WesleyVos

2014-07-14, 05:36 PM

Necroticplague

2014-07-14, 05:45 PM

I'd go for either, build based heavily on ECL. First would probably have a more Paranoia tone to it than the second.

kellbyb

2014-07-14, 06:09 PM

Vhaidara

2014-07-14, 06:11 PM

I think I'd prefer the second one.

I think everyone would prefer the second one. That's why we need noble sacrifices volunteers for the first.

Threadnaught

2014-07-14, 06:15 PM

Well....I don't have a Tome of Battle(hate that book) so I'd just need to homebrew/make up what a ''warblade'' does(they have like Leadership and lead armies in war, but are useless in one on one fights right?)

So....with the above ''I do''

No homebrew.
If you want to modify Warblade, you buy Tome of Battle and modify the abilities you don't like at the source. That or trust the player playing as a Warblade "player" not to be a huge jerk in the game of Who can be the Biggest Jerk. :smallamused:

How about a forfeit jedi? Something that isn't as costly as the one you made your "friend"' who gave you ToB do, but could be just as humiliating for the loser.

If I win, you DM a Campaign from levels 1-20, with none of your own house rules, following RAW as closely as possible, while keeping us in the forum up to date with a campaign log.

torrasque666

2014-07-14, 06:51 PM

eh wat?
/ten characters

FidgetySquirrel

2014-07-14, 06:56 PM

Do these two statements mean that the DM a cheating optimizer and can't play if he knows all his own house rules?That's logic. In this thread, logic is cheating. Therefore, you are a cheating optimizer.Orcus!

Coidzor

2014-07-14, 07:04 PM

Indeed. This is yet more support for the theory that Jedipotter is just really really bad at communicating. Still a lot of problems with the rule system, as were mentioned in the other thread, but at least one less now.

I dunno, assuming that players of spellcasters always go off and talk on the phone for twenty minutes for no apparent reason while the rest of the group is shopping as the primary reason for preventing players of spellcasters from gathering spell components seems flawed and problematic in the extreme, actually.

137beth

2014-07-14, 07:05 PM

That's logic. In this thread, logic is cheating. Therefore, you are a cheating optimizer.Orcus!

Red text? Is Orcus a moderator now:smalleek:?

Anyways I'd be up for playing in a Jedipotter pbp as a commoner.

FidgetySquirrel

2014-07-14, 07:11 PM

Red text? Is Orcus a moderator now:smalleek:?

Anyways I'd be up for playing in a Jedipotter pbp as a commoner.From what I've been able to gather, Orcus is jedipotter's moderator of choice!

Actually, I was just referencing this.

DM:You summon something different, you summon Orcus.

Dr.Gara

2014-07-14, 07:48 PM

If anything, I would probably enjoy playing in either game, making an attempt at something that might look slightly like a Mailman, if you cut off anything special or decent about him. To prove a point.

RFLS

2014-07-14, 08:29 PM

Okay, two questions. First one is for anyone, and second one is for jedipotter:

What the heck does "rudisplork" mean?

Out of curiosity, Jedipotter, which of these comics depicts a more fun game in your opinion?

DM of the Rings (http://www.shamusyoung.com/twentysidedtale/?p=612)

Darths and Droids (http://darthsanddroids.net/episodes/0001.html)

I'd like an answer to this, jedipotter.

Vhaidara

2014-07-14, 08:32 PM

IIRC, rudisplorking is a term that Kazudo (I believe) coined, which is synonymous with definition of cheating used by jedipotter, and which we refer to as munchkining. It was to show that calling it something doesn't make it something, ie, just because jedipotter called it cheating didn't mean that it was cheating.

georgie_leech

2014-07-14, 08:33 PM

Okay, two questions. First one is for anyone, and second one is for jedipotter:

What the heck does "rudisplork" mean?

Early on in the last thread, back when it was still about cheating, and everyone was struggling to figure out how jedi's definition of cheating worked, Kazudo said this:

I was thinking Earthbound myself, but that's neither here nor there.

The point is that if YOU call it cheating at your table, then it's cheating at your table. If Slipperychicken calls it cheesing at their table, then it's cheesing at that table. If I call it exceptional cleverness at my table, then it's exceptional cleverness at my table. If someone else calls it rudisplorking at their table, then it's rudisplorking at their table.

Either way, if you're the DM, you have control over situations like this. If you'd rather someone not rudisplork at your cheesing table, then let them know you don't want them to do things like that and that, for the purposes of the game, this just won't work.