Are you saying that THIS spell can clone up a god?

[Yael]

I've seen in many threads that the way to ascend to divinity is primarly to use the Ice Assassin (http://dndtools.eu/spells/frostburn--68/ice-assassin--1279/) spell, but as a 9th level spell, it is posible to copy up a deity? I thought that to clone up a deity you need a portion of the deity in question (hair, nails, etc,) how would you get it without popping up its portfolio sense?

[Eldan]

Component pouch. There is no given value for the body parts, so all conceivable parts are in fact in there.

Yes, it's stupid.

[sideswipe]

this is why although its legal and works it is stupid and would not be allowed

[torrasque666]

Component pouch. There is no given value for the body parts, so all conceivable parts are in fact in there.

Yes, it's stupid.

However, that assumes that said body parts exist at all.

[kardar233]

Or you could just do it in a way that you don't need material components for. Like use a Wish SLA from your Efreet simulacrum to make a scroll of Ice Assassin of the deity, that you then cast.

[Yael]

Why does WotC give us this many gamebreaking posibilities ,:C

[sideswipe]

because they intended the game to be fun and for people to have fun. for people to understand rules intentions as the majority of role players have at least slightly above average intelligence.

but some peoples version of fun is to try and break and destroy things, or to find a way to gain an unfair advantage. because we can't have nice things if theirs are not nicer.

they break the game and show off by rules lawyering and then the fun lovers have to keep up or stop having fun. then the DM has to keep up or it becomes easy and thus optimisation is born.

eventually it becomes commonplace and if you don't conform you get ridiculed.
"ha your playing vanilla paladin 15? wow that sucks you should have been and taken.....

*one essay later*

.... and if you don't your just a noob. or you don't appreciate optimisation.

now obviously this is exaggerated but in essence this is what happens. the combo's were not intended and the play testers forgot to hire tippy or one of the others as a tester.

and one last thing. you cant make a game for geeks and expect no one to abuse it because we have WAAAAYYYYYYY to much time on our hands. and i'm speaking for myself with a job and a fiancée. i have a friend who (although is looking for a job and other things) doesn't and spends his free time learning an average of 1 system every 2 weeks. and trawls through forums more than i do.

[Eldariel]

More like, the material is poorly written and only designed for internal use of one book (which in and of itself is often still broken), which easily leads to ridiculous combinations in conjunction with other books. The case of Ice Assassin is just a stupidly poorly written spell though (its Core little brother, Simulacrum (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/simulacrum.htm), is likewise broken). The playtesting for various products was minimal and there was no control or proofreading over the system, which leads to various wordings in various places which interact funnily with other wordings (take, for instance, the word "Allies" in White Raven Tactics, which is a game-term defined in PHB to include yourself). Which is kind of a shame because Wizards has done an impeccable job with Magic: the Gathering rules-wise; there are no situations in MTG and all the billions of combinations available in the game that are not governed unequivocally by the rules.

[sideswipe]

yes this is true. but i believe that a large overhaul of the rules has happened in MTG at least twice to accommodate for poorly written cards and bad combinations.

and if a card cannot be fixed by that then they re print it with a revised edition of its effects. which makes all the old cards technically now say the new wording.

if you think of it that way they wrote 3.0 realised its errors. wrote 3.5 and realised that the way the rules work is still not going to be fixed by patches, it needs an overhaul at core mechanics and concept level so they made 4th. which is very different. and in my limited experience not very breakable and bendable as 3.5.
yes it can be broken, but in the optimisation way. not in the 1st level gods type way. which make me like the game more as an exercise of how a game should be written... but i just love broken things :smallsmile: 3.5 for me.

though "pun-pun-esque" types appear in most games.
it takes 4 power points to make it in mutants and master minds. and the recommended play level is 10 at 150 power points.....

so we cant hate on wizards that much for messing up on a project this size.

[icefractal]

There are several ways to avoid the material component requirement.

The spell component pouch thing is sort of amusing (although becoming overused as a joke), but isn't anything that even applies for TO (it makes all builds meaningless), much less for an actual game.

Slightly closer to practical, but still not something you could use in an actual game, and (IMO) something that makes TO less interesting if applied - saying that Eschew Materials covers something like a divine toenail (or an artifact), because it has no listed cost.

Moving out of the realm of bad wording, there's using an XP-free Wish for a Scroll of Ice Assassin, which makes any cost moot. In fact, this method is meaningless, because XP-free Wishes for items render every character arbitrarily powerful, and shatter not only any actual game, but even any meaningful comparisons of TO characters. But this isn't immediately apparent, so expect to see this method proposed.

Less game-shattering (although it still is, if you take it to the logical conclusion), there's using a standard Wish for a Scroll of Ice Assassin, and claiming that the cost would be the same, since the component has no listed value. This "only" gives you a limited number of arbitrarily powerful minions, rather than a NI supply of them.


Now as to whether it would work, if you actually managed to get a god's toenail clippings by legitimate means. I would say that it at least copies the physical body of the deity, sans divine rank. And gods have rather high stats even without divine powers, so that's nothing to sneeze at. I wouldn't give it divine rank automatically, but it would be the perfect focus for some kind of scheme to steal divine rank (that is, transfer it away from the original deity to the copy; it's not going to increase the sum total of divine ranks out there)

[Eldariel]

There's also the epic feat Ignore Material Component (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#ignoreMaterialComponents), which can again be acquired pre-epic among others by being a dragon of the right age (though you have to do work for the Spellcraft-ranks; Favored gets 'em for you on 20 for DCFS, but earlier than that you have to use temporary HD + instantaneous rebuilding abilities or so).

[Yael]

Even though all this was useful, there's a clause on the DMG I think that makes Deities immune to mortal magic, so, as I see it, Ice Assassin does not affect a deity, but doing a clone of it (or using its hair) wouldn't trigger Portfolio Sense?

[icefractal]

Even though all this was useful, there's a clause on the DMG I think that makes Deities immune to mortal magic, so, as I see it, Ice Assassin does not affect a deity, but doing a clone of it (or using its hair) wouldn't trigger Portfolio Sense?It definitely would trigger Portfolio Sense, which is why I suggest letting it partially work. If you just pissed off a god, you should get something nice out of it. :smallbiggrin:

[Grod_The_Giant]

Off-topic:

though "pun-pun-esque" types appear in most games.
it takes 4 power points to make it in mutants and master minds. and the recommended play level is 10 at 150 power points.....

so we cant hate on wizards that much for messing up on a project this size.
Huh? What aspect of Pun-Pun you think you're getting for 4 pp?

[sideswipe]

Off-topic:

Huh? What aspect of Pun-Pun you think you're getting for 4 pp?


(off topic) the infinite power loop can be done at any power level in mutants and masterminds 3rd edition. and it takes as little as 4 power points to do.

if you wish to know more PM me so i can not spiral this topic off to much.

[Yael]

Don't really know what Mutants and Masterminds is :smallbiggrin:U

[137beth]

Is there a pun-pun-esque analogue in GURPS?


However, that assumes that said body parts exist at all.
Pretty sure it does, deities are outsiders, who have body parts.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Don't really know what Mutants and Masterminds is :smallbiggrin:U
It's a d20 superhero system (http://www.d20herosrd.com/).

[Vogonjeltz]

Component pouch. There is no given value for the body parts, so all conceivable parts are in fact in there.

Yes, it's stupid.

The pouch assumes you have them if the cost is negligible. The body part is unique and thus of immeasurable value.

The rule is you can assume you have them, that doesn't mean you necessarily have them.

In other words, the rules leave latitude for not having things the player could not possibly have.

[Grod_The_Giant]

The pouch assumes you have them if the cost is negligible. The body part is unique and thus of immeasurable value.

The rule is you can assume you have them, that doesn't mean you necessarily have them.

In other words, the rules leave latitude for not having things the player could not possibly have.


Spell Component Pouch
A spellcaster with a spell component pouch is assumed to have all the material components and focuses needed for spellcasting, except for those components that have a specific cost, divine focuses, and focuses that wouldn’t fit in a pouch. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/goodsAndServices.htm#spellComponentPouch)
The rules only cover things with "specific costs," and the wording is inclusive-- the pouch has everything except for the listed categories. "Unique items" are not mentioned as exceptions; thus, by RAW, the pouch contains them. It's stupid RAW, and not something most GMs would allow, but there you go.

Ice Assassin really should have had a focus, not a component.

[torrasque666]

What he's saying though, is that due to the unique nature of the item, in this case part of a deity, it has an cost of "infinite". Otherwise, as Artifacts don't have a price, only what it would cost to make them, they could be used as material components should the spell require it.

[Karnith]

What he's saying though, is that due to the unique nature of the item, in this case part of a deity, it has an cost of "infinite". Otherwise, as Artifacts don't have a price, only what it would cost to make them, they could be used as material components should the spell require it.
The assertion that items without a specific cost are the same as items of negligible value is not supported by the rules (common sense and RAI, naturally, but not in the rules). Nor is the assertion that artifacts have a cost of "infinite" - they were printed without prices because they are not designed to be bought, sold, or dropped as random treasure. They do not have a specified cost, and that's all that really matters with a SCP.

Also, random free artifacts from a spell component pouch is a thing that people have laughed about for a long time thanks to Apocalypse from the Sky.

[Dalebert]

This is actually borderline off-topic, but it's worth noting that Ice Assassin kinda sucks in that it cannot heal by any means other than an expensive laboratory process. You duped a troll? A vampire? A deity? Their regeneration doesn't work and they can't be the recipient of heal spells. It makes them fairly vulnerable compared to the real thing. In this one sense, simulacrums are actually more practical.

[Vogonjeltz]

(http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/goodsAndServices.htm#spellComponentPouch)
The rules only cover things with "specific costs," and the wording is inclusive-- the pouch has everything except for the listed categories. "Unique items" are not mentioned as exceptions; thus, by RAW, the pouch contains them. It's stupid RAW, and not something most GMs would allow, but there you go.

Ice Assassin really should have had a focus, not a component.

The point hinges on the use of the word assumed. If you don't actually have it, it's not there. It's a phrase to assuage concerns about petty bookkeeping, not a magical pouch of unending items.

*so no, no ice assassins of anything if you haven't actually acquired part of its body.

[LimSindull]

So, which gods would you be wanting to copy?

This is a basic description of low power deities.
These entities, called demigods, are the weakest of the deities. A demigod can grant spells and perform a few deeds that are beyond mortal limits. A demigod has anywhere from a few hundred to a few thousand devoted mortal worshipers and may receive veneration or respect from many more. A demigod controls a small godly realm (usually on an Outer Plane) and has minor control over a portfolio that includes one or more aspects of mortal existence. A demigod might be very accomplished in a single skill or a group of related skills, gain combat advantages in special circumstances, or be able to bring about minor changes in reality itself related to the portfolio.

See that last part? They can make changes in reality. They can simply do things like, undo our spells. Or soul bind us to themselves, or teleport to someone and dimension lock them in their realm. When anyone takes on a god, they should never win. They are immortal, have powers beyond your comprehension, and have thousands of followers. And they should be at least twentieth level in whatever their main focus is.

I don't believe that a player should ever think that doing anything but serving a god would be a good idea. And these aren't even the ones that can travel anywhere in time at will and knows everything ever (Boccob). These are gods. Even when gods fight the worst that happens is someone losing an eye. Oh, and millions of mortals die.

This is probably just my opinion, but I don't see why game mechanics could even be argued.

[Brookshw]

because they intended the game to be fun and for people to have fun. for people to understand rules intentions as the majority of role players have at least slightly above average intelligence.

but some peoples version of fun is to try and break and destroy things, or to find a way to gain an unfair advantage. because we can't have nice things if theirs are not nicer.

they break the game and show off by rules lawyering and then the fun lovers have to keep up or stop having fun. then the DM has to keep up or it becomes easy and thus optimisation is born.

eventually it becomes commonplace and if you don't conform you get ridiculed.
"ha your playing vanilla paladin 15? wow that sucks you should have been and taken.....

*one essay later*

.... and if you don't your just a noob. or you don't appreciate optimisation.

now obviously this is exaggerated but in essence this is what happens. the combo's were not intended and the play testers forgot to hire tippy or one of the others as a tester.

and one last thing. you cant make a game for geeks and expect no one to abuse it because we have WAAAAYYYYYYY to much time on our hands. and i'm speaking for myself with a job and a fiancée. i have a friend who (although is looking for a job and other things) doesn't and spends his free time learning an average of 1 system every 2 weeks. and trawls through forums more than i do.

Interesting write up though I feel you've undervalued the market appeal element to some degree not to mention the inevitable drive to expand profits via new products. Not many people keep buying the same book over and over again after all, if you want to maintain the revenue stream you need new product in this industry after all and to put content in there that will have as wide appeal as possible while also showing am improvement over previous content

Ya know, I could go on a long tirade about the market forces behind publish or perish, think I'll stop myself here......

[Urpriest]

So, which gods would you be wanting to copy?

This is a basic description of low power deities.
These entities, called demigods, are the weakest of the deities. A demigod can grant spells and perform a few deeds that are beyond mortal limits. A demigod has anywhere from a few hundred to a few thousand devoted mortal worshipers and may receive veneration or respect from many more. A demigod controls a small godly realm (usually on an Outer Plane) and has minor control over a portfolio that includes one or more aspects of mortal existence. A demigod might be very accomplished in a single skill or a group of related skills, gain combat advantages in special circumstances, or be able to bring about minor changes in reality itself related to the portfolio.

See that last part? They can make changes in reality. They can simply do things like, undo our spells. Or soul bind us to themselves, or teleport to someone and dimension lock them in their realm. When anyone takes on a god, they should never win. They are immortal, have powers beyond your comprehension, and have thousands of followers. And they should be at least twentieth level in whatever their main focus is.

I don't believe that a player should ever think that doing anything but serving a god would be a good idea. And these aren't even the ones that can travel anywhere in time at will and knows everything ever (Boccob). These are gods. Even when gods fight the worst that happens is someone losing an eye. Oh, and millions of mortals die.

This is probably just my opinion, but I don't see why game mechanics could even be argued.

The game mechanics for gods are quite explicit, and only some of them choose to take the Alter Reality SDA (and even for those who do, it's only a bit more powerful than Wish).

More relevantly, you're not messing with a god, you're messing with a copy of a god that explicitly has to obey your every command.

That right there is the main problem with Ice Assassin. It's a spell where one line makes the Assassin part utterly meaningless, and all because WotC writers were too unimaginative to think of another way to say "and it won't attack or inconvenience you while it's doing it".

[Eldariel]

The game mechanics for gods are quite explicit, and only some of them choose to take the Alter Reality SDA (and even for those who do, it's only a bit more powerful than Wish).

More relevantly, you're not messing with a god, you're messing with a copy of a god that explicitly has to obey your every command.

That right there is the main problem with Ice Assassin. It's a spell where one line makes the Assassin part utterly meaningless, and all because WotC writers were too unimaginative to think of another way to say "and it won't attack or inconvenience you while it's doing it".

Incidentally, Planar Bindings and Gate have the exact same issue. WotC added the absurd obedience clauses which make the whole bartering and all the fun stuff completely pointless making them just ways to generate superpowerful underlings.

[Urpriest]

Incidentally, Planar Bindings and Gate have the exact same issue. WotC added the absurd obedience clauses which make the whole bartering and all the fun stuff completely pointless making them just ways to generate superpowerful underlings.

I don't think that's true of Planar Binding, as far as I can see the spell only makes the creature perform the particular service you successfully bargain it into performing.

In the case of Gate, it grants you control, but it specifies that within the context of the spell control is defined within a contract, so I don't think that applies here either.