Monster Manual getting more monsters

[akaddk]

https://www.wizards.com/dnd/Article.aspx?x=dnd/4ll/20140714


So in looking at our options, we decided the only sensible response to too many monsters is to get a bigger crate. The Monster Manual is now 32 pages longer than it was originally, to accommodate all the awesome creatures we want to fit into it. As a consequence of that increase in page count, the price of the book will be increased . . . by nothing. It's staying put. That's 10 percent more content for a 0 percent premium.

But in this instance it's a good thing :D

[ImperiousLeader]

From today's Legends and Lore (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/Article.aspx?x=dnd/4ll/20140714), the Monster Manual is getting 32 more pages, a 10% increase in size, in order to pack in more monsters.

Also, Modrons.

[Chaosvii7]

They should have initially released it in the 320 format and then re-release it a year later and add a sticker that says "Now with 10% more monsters!"

That's like New Coke-level marketing right there.

[Particle_Man]

Modrons are back! Woot!

[akaddk]

I posted mine fifteen minutes earlier and with a cooler title and yet, no responses :(

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?361720-Rules-Bloat-is-Already-Upon-Us!

[rlc]

pity post.

[SpawnOfMorbo]

pity post.

+1

But why give in and give the OP what they want?

Oh no... I did it too...:smalleek:

[akaddk]

pity post.


+1

But why give in and give the OP what they want?

Oh no... I did it too...:smalleek:

I love you guys :smallredface:

[Person_Man]

I would have actually preferred better editing. If you can't fit a complete stat block, abilities, description, and picture on 2 pages, then you're a bad writer or you need a more standardized game system. I still haven't read around 50% of my 3.5 Monster Manual, which I've used in hundreds of games.

[akaddk]

I would have actually preferred better editing. If you can't fit a complete stat block, abilities, description, and picture on 2 pages, then you're a bad writer or you need a more standardized game system. I still haven't read around 50% of my 3.5 Monster Manual, which I've used in hundreds of games.

Who says they couldn't? They're saying they couldn't edit it down enough to fit those extra monsters in and don't mention how many pages each monster took anywhere at all.

[rlc]

maybe they added 16 more monsters?

[da_chicken]

Clearly it's an extra 32 pages of templates.

[Slipperychicken]

Maybe they needed to clarify when and how creatures (especially humanoids) can exchange their racial hit dice for levels. And also to throw in some weird loopholes and contradictory alignment rules to inspire confusion for decades to come.

[SpawnOfMorbo]

Clearly it's an extra 32 pages of templates.

32 pages of monster races...

[da_chicken]

32 pages of monster races...

32 pages detailing every type of para and quasi elemental.

32 pages of aquatic animals.

32 pages of dinosaurs, sorted alphabetically without respect to temporal period. Including entries for both apatosaurus and brontosaurus.

[SpawnOfMorbo]

32 pages detailing every type of para and quasi elemental.

32 pages of aquatic animals.

32 pages of dinosaurs, sorted alphabetically without respect to temporal period. Including entries for both apatosaurus and brontosaurus.

Hey, a guy can hope!

Bolded:

Also are you seriously considering that there is any other way to sort them? :smallfurious:


(:smalltongue:)

[Fwiffo86]

32 pages of the ecology and sociology of the Myconid?

32 pages of maps, laying out areas commonly frequented by owlbears and the like?

32 pages of explanations why goblinoids prefer to live in buildings long abandoned and never fix them?

and my favorite....

32 pages of reasons why it is ok to slaughter anything in the world and not be considered a raging mass murderer.

[Callin]

You know you all want it... a 32 page Kama Sutra of Demons and Devils.....

[1337 b4k4]

32 pages dedicated to examining, identifying and tracking monsters based on various rubbings and scatological leavings. Because that's what real trackers would use.

[Chaosvii7]

32 Pages on how to, using the in-game store, customize your monsters with alternate costumes, special effects, and hats.

Realistically they're probably using this to add things like the compendium of creature types and their common traits, like the stuff in the back of the 3.5 Monster Manual.

[Callin]

I would like for it to be Monster PC state blocks

[Prophet_of_Io]

Clearly it's an extra 32 pages of templates.

I might be the only one who would actually be happy with that.

[akaddk]

I might be the only one who would actually be happy with that.
I agree, you probably would be.

[SpawnOfMorbo]

I might be the only one who would actually be happy with that.

Depending on the type of template... I could get behind that.

It would make customization a lot easier and faster.

[da_chicken]

Depending on the type of template... I could get behind that.

It would make customization a lot easier and faster.

Eh. I always found that the truly useful templates were so simple that they would be easier to just describe in a few paragraphs instead of making a structured template. Skeleton, Zombie, Ghost, and Lich were by far the most common templates that I used, and that wasn't really complex enough to justify having a template, IMO. Celestial and fiendish just existed to make summoned creatures not suck, and IMO they conflicted thematically with half-fiend and half-celestial. The one thing I really thought should be a template, Dire, never was until Tome of Horrors. That just made the whole thing kind of silly from the start.

Besides, template surplus is part of what I hated about the 3.x minis. Everything got a template just so it could have an extra adjective in the name. Can't we just fight, you know, some greenskins? It doesn't have to be a Half-Fiend Ogre Mage riding a Pseudonatural Nightmare.

I guess it's more of the whole, "If everything is unique and special, then nothing stands out as unique and special, and there's no unifying flavor for the whole campaign world except 'weird fantasty stuff.'"

[SpawnOfMorbo]

Eh. I always found that the truly useful templates were so simple that they would be easier to just describe in a few paragraphs instead of making a structured template. Skeleton, Zombie, Ghost, and Lich were by far the most common templates that I used, and that wasn't really complex enough to justify having a template, IMO. Celestial and fiendish just existed to make summoned creatures not suck, and IMO they conflicted thematically with half-fiend and half-celestial. The one thing I really thought should be a template, Dire, never was until Tome of Horrors. That just made the whole thing kind of silly from the start.

Besides, template surplus is part of what I hated about the 3.x minis. Everything got a template just so it could have an extra adjective in the name. Can't we just fight, you know, some greenskins? It doesn't have to be a Half-Fiend Ogre Mage riding a Pseudonatural Nightmare.

I guess it's more of the whole, "If everything is unique and special, then nothing stands out as unique and special, and there's no unifying flavor for the whole campaign world except 'weird fantasty stuff.'"

I see it more of " if I want it unique and special then I have the tools to make it such". Not everything is unique in my games. Giving the option to add a template is better than making people make said template only because it will be official (and hopefully) balanced. Lots of people hate homebrew.

I actually don't use many minis, and if I do and I don't have the right one... I don't give two craps, be glad I have something at all.

I also think if they made the template correctly then it could be a huge boon to draw in new players to DM or at least create monsters as they learn to DM (best way is to jump in face first though).

Also greenskins? Siiigh, haven't you learned anything from Daniel Synder? :smallbiggrin:

[Tholomyes]

I liked Templates, but I generally used them sparingly. Usually if I wanted a more unique version of a common enemy, or occasionally if I wanted to boost up the CR of an enemy. Overall, I'd probably like to see more monsters, but I wouldn't mind templates, especially if they're bonus pages.

[SpawnOfMorbo]

I liked Templates, but I generally used them sparingly. Usually if I wanted a more unique version of a common enemy, or occasionally if I wanted to boost up the CR of an enemy. Overall, I'd probably like to see more monsters, but I wouldn't mind templates, especially if they're bonus pages.

Rather have it and not need it than to need it and not have it.

But yeah, CR boosting templates could be nice.

[da_chicken]

I see it more of " if I want it unique and special then I have the tools to make it such". Not everything is unique in my games. Giving the option to add a template is better than making people make said template only because it will be official (and hopefully) balanced. Lots of people hate homebrew.

Yeah, I suppose so.


I actually don't use many minis, and if I do and I don't have the right one... I don't give two craps, be glad I have something at all.

That sounds like us. Many a combat has been the party vs a dozen Doom Guard (http://ddm-images.s3.amazonaws.com/miniatures/0331.jpg) lead by a Warduke (http://ddm-images.s3.amazonaws.com/miniatures/0960.jpg).


I also think if they made the template correctly then it could be a huge boon to draw in new players to DM or at least create monsters as they learn to DM (best way is to jump in face first though).

Eh. Maybe. IMX people do the simplest thing they can when they're new to DMing.


Also greenskins? Siiigh, haven't you learned anything from Daniel Synder? :smallbiggrin:

Nope. I live near Central Michigan University, which also has a native american nickname/mascot. However, their nickname is the Chippewa. That's the actual name of the tribe that used to inhabit the area (and still does, but they used to, too (http://www.dailynewsen.com/images/haberler/a_complete_ranking_of_almost_every_single_mitch_he dberg_joke_m10.jpg)). The reservation for the Chippewa tribe is about 5 miles from the university. When the NCAA tried to ding them for having a racist name a few years back, the Chippewa tribe complained and defended the university because they're using the correct word and the university has been really supportive of the Chippewa heritage.

[da_chicken]

Rather have it and not need it than to need it and not have it.

But yeah, CR boosting templates could be nice.

I'd rather just have rules for advancing and creating monsters. A template seems kind of limiting.

[pwykersotz]

I'd rather just have rules for advancing and creating monsters. A template seems kind of limiting.

This is one of those problems I never realized I had with templates. Recently I was delving into the fey and making some Seelie/Unseelie NPC's. The templates were so unimaginative and restrictive that I just had to start mixing and matching. I think, dare I say, I've outgrown templates.

[akaddk]

I'd rather just have rules for advancing and creating monsters. A template seems kind of limiting.

The thing I don't think people are realising here is that you don't need rules for advancing creatures in 5e. Due to bounded accuracy you can still use that 1st-level version of a bugbear against a 20th-level character.

[Tholomyes]

The thing I don't think people are realizing here is that you don't need rules for advancing creatures in 5e. Due to bounded accuracy you can still use that 1st-level version of a bugbear against a 20th-level character.Except, if you want the bugbear to be challenging to the level 20 character, then you still need the rules for advancing creatures.

In 3.5, I could use a Bugbear with no Racial HD increase, and no class levels, against a 20th level party. That doesn't mean it'll be anything more than a speedbump.

[akaddk]

Except, if you want the bugbear to be challenging to the level 20 character, then you still need the rules for advancing creatures.
No you don't. Just create another bloody monster. I mean, really, a 20th-level bugbear is stupid anyway. If you're that desperate to challenge a 20th-level party with one single super-bugbear, then making a new monster from scratch really isn't that much more difficult than applying a template. Wasting space in the monster manual for templates and monster advancement is ridiculous and nothing more than a carry-over from 3.x/Pathfinder. And if you really, really, really want 5e to be like Pathfinder, then just go play Pathfinder. Which, let's face it, from everything you've said thus far is exactly what you're going to do since you quite obviously have too many issues with 5e to play it.


In 3.5, I could use a Bugbear with no Racial HD increase, and no class levels, against a 20th level party. That doesn't mean it'll be anything more than a speedbump.
Are you seriously trying to compare a 3.5 low level monster to a 5e bounded accuracy one? I mean... seriously?

[Tholomyes]

No you don't. Just create another bloody monster. I mean, really, a 20th-level bugbear is stupid anyway. If you're that desperate to challenge a 20th-level party with one single super-bugbear, then making a new monster from scratch really isn't that much more difficult than applying a template. Wasting space in the monster manual for templates and monster advancement is ridiculous and nothing more than a carry-over from 3.x/Pathfinder. And if you really, really, really want 5e to be like Pathfinder, then just go play Pathfinder. Which, let's face it, from everything you've said thus far is exactly what you're going to do since you quite obviously have too many issues with 5e to play it.I'm simply borrowing your ridiculous claim that you can use a Bugbear against a level 20 party.

But let's take a more reasonable level. Let's say you have a level 5 party, consisting of 5 PCs, and you have the idea for a challenging encounter, consisting of a gang of bugbears, and their chief. So, given the XP chart in the L&L page, you've got 2000 XP to play with. You take 4 normal bugbears (200 x 4 = 800 XP), and a CR 3 Bugbear chief (1100 XP), and maybe a few goblins to make up the change. You'd still need templates or monster advancement guidelines to make that CR 3 Bugbear chief.

And lastly, I take issue with the fact that I want to make 5e more like PF. I don't like PF. I don't like 4e. I don't like 13th age, or OSR, or any of that stuff. As it stands, the system I like best for fantasy is Mutants and Masterminds, a supers game, simply because it is designed well. I may be down on 5e, but it's more in a (perhaps futile) attempt to solve the problems with it. Maybe I'm still in playtest-mentality, but until the final rules are sent to the printer, I still have some infinitesimal hope that it could wind up making a difference. Granted, by now, I'm willing to accept that they pretty much have the contents established. Either they have monster advancement rules (or whatever other rules), or they don't, so my hope is more based on the potential for finding community solutions for 5e problems. My point is, I want a system that works. If 5e doesn't end up working, then I don't really care, since I have other systems (which I may not like, much, but will still serve me better than 5e). And if it does work, then I'll be glad. But for that to be the case, it still has problems which need to be fixed, that can't be solved by sycophantic 'if you don't like it, then leave' mentalities.


Are you seriously trying to compare a 3.5 low level monster to a 5e bounded accuracy one? I mean... seriously?I fail to see how this is a ridiculous assertion. Sure, bounded accuracy means in numbers lower level enemies can still be relevant, but when talking about a single low-level enemy (or hell, even a couple), it doesn't matter. They may be able to get a small amount of damage in, but they die in a round, and the party just heals up easily, after battle. Still all they are is a speed bump.

[Chaosvii7]

Except, if you want the bugbear to be challenging to the level 20 character, then you still need the rules for advancing creatures.

I think you fail to understand the design intent of the monsters of this edition. Bugbears at early levels are designed to be individual challenges themselves, but as a party gets higher in level, creatures with lower levels are designed to become hordes all their own. A suitable encounter for a 20th level party is meant to be 20 levels worth of bugbears - probably 4 or 5 of them. You don't make one bugbear with class levels for a party of 20th level characters, you make a horde of bugbears to fight them.

The math for daily encounters is partly equivalent to that of 3.5, so if you really want to challenge them with an army of bugbears then you could throw a few of those hordes. That'd probably be one day's worth of fighting, the entire army, but it's a lot more exciting than fighting one bugbear who also happens to be a wizard or something.

If you want to throw one massive monster to fight against the party, they'll have options for that that aren't bugbears. Besides, a 20th level party deserves to fight something more than just bugbears. Like Orcus.

[Envyus]

And if you really want to buff a Bugbear like that give it class levels which you can do.

Anyway we already know that there is going to be an advancing monsters option and the legendary template. So you could make a level 20 Legendary Bugbear Barbarian as the final boss if you wanted.

[Tholomyes]

I think you fail to understand the design intent of the monsters of this edition. Bugbears at early levels are designed to be individual challenges themselves, but as a party gets higher in level, creatures with lower levels are designed to become hordes all their own. A suitable encounter for a 20th level party is meant to be 20 levels worth of bugbears - probably 4 or 5 of them. You don't make one bugbear with class levels for a party of 20th level characters, you make a horde of bugbears to fight them.

The math for daily encounters is partly equivalent to that of 3.5, so if you really want to challenge them with an army of bugbears then you could throw a few of those hordes. That'd probably be one day's worth of fighting, the entire army, but it's a lot more exciting than fighting one bugbear who also happens to be a wizard or something.

If you want to throw one massive monster to fight against the party, they'll have options for that that aren't bugbears. Besides, a 20th level party deserves to fight something more than just bugbears. Like Orcus.Again, as I said in the above, my 20th-level example was based on the hyperbole of using a Bugbear against 20th level characters. Yes, Orcus would be a good level 20 fight, but, say level 5, you're still dealing with the levels where Bugbears are a legitimate foe, but a where a Higher CR bugbear might be required. Realistically, you'll only see the need to add a few levels (or, I guess CR) to monsters, but the necessity for monster advancement is there. As I remarked in the above post, my example of a time where monster advancement would be required did have multiple bugbears, but it still necessitated advancement. It wasn't even much of an edge-case either. I don't think I've seen a game where every fight against orcs or goblins or bugbears or what have you, are of rank and file troops, with no variation to them. Monster advancement, or templates are a way to solve this.

Also, while I don't like the "improve a monster with PC Class-levels" notion, I also don't like the idea that the throwing hordes at the PCs is always the right way to do it, or that it's always the appropriate way for the story. If this edition doesn't have rules for advancing monsters, in on way or another, then it'll be the first in a while that hasn't (I don't remember if AD&D had rules for adjusting monsters, but I know 3e and 4e did), and it'll be limiting what can be done with the system. I disagree that having hordes of identical bugbears is more exciting than having more unique versions of the common mook.

----

On the side-note of templates, if they do exist, I think they should be less of the variety of "Fey Bugbear" or what have you, and more stuff like 4e's monster roles, like skirmisher, if you want a more mobile version of the monster, Brute, if you want to be more of a physical threat, Soldier, if you want someone to keep the party from getting at the wizard, or Leader, if you want just a general force-multiplier. More of a way that changes up the way the monster works in practice, than a "Hey, in the off chance, you want an orc, who's also a Plant-creature, here it is"


And if you really want to buff a Bugbear like that give it class levels which you can do.

Anyway we already know that there is going to be an advancing monsters option and the legendary template. So you could make a level 20 Legendary Bugbear Barbarian as the final boss if you wanted.

I've played enough 3.5 and Pathfinder to not like that method of advancing creatures. It might be better with 5e, but since classes are still designed around daily resources, which are supposed to last over a full day of adventuring, it doesn't work very well, in my experience, since most enemies are only around for a single fight.

[Envyus]

I've played enough 3.5 and Pathfinder to not like that method of advancing creatures. It might be better with 5e, but since classes are still designed around daily resources, which are supposed to last over a full day of adventuring, it doesn't work very well, in my experience, since most enemies are only around for a single fight.

Well Fighter is not that hard given that it does need a lot of resources.

Lich's I would say are also fine for the Wizard class and spell casting because they generally will be fought more then once due to their immortality.

[Sartharina]

If you want to throw one massive monster to fight against the party, they'll have options for that that aren't bugbears. Besides, a 20th level party deserves to fight something more than just bugbears. Like Orcus.But why is a level 20 Demon Prince fighting elves, dwarves, humans, and halflings? Shouldn't he be fighting something bigger and badder than a bunch of pigskinned humanoids?


You don't want to use class features to build a high-level bugbear... but you might want to buff its AC, attacks per round, and possibly make it Legendary (At which point, of course, it stops being "A Bugbear", and starts being "Grontock Hiddenpants the Courage of Running, Scourge of the Glossy Plains of Despair, Bugbear Chieftain of a dozen tribes, who has slain hundreds in his mad lust for murder! Now you know why you fear the dark", And of course, once you defeat him, the public shall cheer you with observations of "It was inevitable." Normal bugbears are used as well for tribesmen (No inexplicably upgraded bugbears), with possibly "Elite" bugbears as honor guard - but they're still distinctive.

Okay... so maybe I've been playing too much Dwarf Fortress adventure mode.

[Envyus]

But why is a level 20 Demon Prince fighting elves, dwarves, humans, and halflings? Shouldn't he be fighting something bigger and badder than a bunch of pigskinned humanoids?


You don't want to use class features to build a high-level bugbear... but you might want to buff its AC, attacks per round, and possibly make it Legendary (At which point, of course, it stops being "A Bugbear", and starts being "Grontock Hiddenpants the Courage of Running, Scourge of the Glossy Plains of Despair, Bugbear Chieftain of a dozen tribes, who has slain hundreds in his mad lust for murder! Now you know why you fear the dark", And of course, once you defeat him, the public shall cheer you with observations of "It was inevitable." Normal bugbears are used as well for tribesmen (No inexplicably upgraded bugbears), with possibly "Elite" bugbears as honor guard - but they're still distinctive.

Okay... so maybe I've been playing too much Dwarf Fortress adventure mode.

I don't mind giving a High Level Bugbear class features. With a Fighter at least it's pretty threatening. 4 attacks with extra damage die and if it crits it doubles again. Plus Action surge. It's a pretty scary Boss monster.

[Sartharina]

I don't mind giving a High Level Bugbear class features. With a Fighter at least it's pretty threatening. 4 attacks with extra damage die and if it crits it doubles again. Plus Action surge. It's a pretty scary Boss monster.Fighter's not bad because most of its class features are on the encounter level. But a wizard or cleric would be problematic due to the daily resource limit.

[Tar Palantir]

And of course this is leaving aside the fact that many creatures would be inappropriate to advance by class level. Bugbear? Sure. Chimera? Not so much.

[Beleriphon]

And of course this is leaving aside the fact that many creatures would be inappropriate to advance by class level. Bugbear? Sure. Chimera? Not so much.

Shush you. I want my half-celestial fiendish dire slimes with fighter levels!

[da_chicken]

And of course this is leaving aside the fact that many creatures would be inappropriate to advance by class level. Bugbear? Sure. Chimera? Not so much.

Yeah, the goat's bleating really messes up a Rogue's hide checks.

[da_chicken]

The thing I don't think people are realising here is that you don't need rules for advancing creatures in 5e. Due to bounded accuracy you can still use that 1st-level version of a bugbear against a 20th-level character.

A bugbear will still be able to damage a 20th level PC and in large enough numbers can challenge them, but just as a CR 20 will outclass level 1 PCs with their abilities, level 20 PCs will outclass CR 1 monsters with their abilities. Depending on what the DM wants, he may want to increase the CR of a creature rather than increase the number. Dragons, for example, can have age categories that naturally do this. You don't need to do this, and that's fantastic, but the option would be nice, too.

In any case, there need to be some guidelines for creating monsters. That should probably be sufficient to tell you how to increase the CR of an existing creature.

[Fwiffo86]

But why is a level 20 Demon Prince fighting elves, dwarves, humans, and halflings? Shouldn't he be fighting something bigger and badder than a bunch of pigskinned humanoids?


You don't want to use class features to build a high-level bugbear... but you might want to buff its AC, attacks per round, and possibly make it Legendary (At which point, of course, it stops being "A Bugbear", and starts being "Grontock Hiddenpants the Courage of Running, Scourge of the Glossy Plains of Despair, Bugbear Chieftain of a dozen tribes, who has slain hundreds in his mad lust for murder! Now you know why you fear the dark", And of course, once you defeat him, the public shall cheer you with observations of "It was inevitable." Normal bugbears are used as well for tribesmen (No inexplicably upgraded bugbears), with possibly "Elite" bugbears as honor guard - but they're still distinctive.

Okay... so maybe I've been playing too much Dwarf Fortress adventure mode.

I want your life. It sounds so much more interesting than mine. I'm just saying....

[SpawnOfMorbo]

Yeah, the goat's bleating really messes up a Rogue's hide checks.

Nah could you imagine how scary it would be...

You are alone in your study working on the designs to the new bridge, sure the thieves guild told you not to but you aren't going to let them intimidate you. Suddenly the window fly's open and the candles are snuffed out, those darn shutters never work right, that will be the next thing on your to do list. Ad you shut the shutters you hear behind you "Sneak attack Baaaaaitch" and feel a piercing through your back. You fall to the ground and the last image you see is a goat eating the plans you have spent months working on. The goat turns, stares you in the eye and bleats at you as if it is scolding you. You quietly drift off to your internal slumber.

[INDYSTAR188]

Nah could you imagine how scary it would be...

You are alone in your study working on the designs to the new bridge, sure the thieves guild told you not to but you aren't going to let them intimidate you. Suddenly the window fly's open and the candles are snuffed out, those darn shutters never work right, that will be the next thing on your to do list. Ad you shut the shutters you hear behind you "Sneak attack Baaaaaitch" and feel a piercing through your back. You fall to the ground and the last image you see is a goat eating the plans you have spent months working on. The goat turns, stares you in the eye and bleats at you as if it is scolding you. You quietly drift off to your internal slumber.

The stuff of nightmares.... seriously though, goats are creepy buggers. Those eyes (https://www.google.com/search?q=goat&es_sm=93&tbm=isch&imgil=jNv9-qR9MkfmGM%253A%253Bhttps%253A%252F%252Fencrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com%252Fimages%253Fq%253Dtbn%253AANd9 GcSldkDDAuEh5N9FvqVdL5s2lnGBiW_9AdseJrMr1sfUsl3YK4 ee%253B1469%253B1600%253BMKf1QH7t8ypJIM%253Bhttp%2 5253A%25252F%25252Fcarolsbeyondreason.blogspot.com %25252F2012%25252F11%25252Fmy-goat-rodeo-life.html&source=iu&usg=__VUlZW4rvxlnX0j8AsNHgICkD9jc%3D&sa=X&ei=5xnIU7nXDoSzyAT0qoLYCQ&ved=0CKABEP4dMA4&biw=1242&bih=585#facrc=_&imgdii=_&imgrc=jNv9-qR9MkfmGM%253A%3BMKf1QH7t8ypJIM%3Bhttp%253A%252F%2 52F4.bp.blogspot.com%252F_Sh3smLghY2g%252FTNKxDb09 1WI%252FAAAAAAAABMA%252F4M5iluTvXgY%252Fs1600%252F scarey%252Bgoat.jpg%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fcarolsbey ondreason.blogspot.com%252F2012%252F11%252Fmy-goat-rodeo-life.html%3B1469%3B1600)....

[Sartharina]

You think that's bad? You should really fear an Abyssal Fiendish Angelic Blue Royal Dragonborn Italian Dinosaur Glowy Blue Goat Bardic Druid with a Power Pitcher, Towel, Deadmau5 hat, wooden tribal mask, and jetpack carrying a giant boulder around with its tongue!

[INDYSTAR188]

You think that's bad? You should really fear an Abyssal Fiendish Angelic Blue Royal Dragonborn Italian Dinosaur Glowy Blue Goat Bardic Druid with a Power Pitcher, Towel, Deadmau5 hat, wooden tribal mask, and jetpack carrying a giant boulder around with its tongue!

I know you're being silly but I believe I read somewhere on the 4E board that someone made a vampire, vampire|werewolf or something rediculous like that (as a PC).

I hope they take a heavy dose of inspiration for their MM from the 4E Monster Vault and encounter rules. It is so easy to set up and DM in 4E that it makes me question why it took so long to create that system and why they would ever walk away from it.

[Sartharina]

I know you're being sillyand making a reference to Goat Simulator! :smalltongue:

[Slipperychicken]

Okay... so maybe I've been playing too much Dwarf Fortress adventure mode.

Not nearly DF enough. Needs more epic god-slaying adventurers instakilled by head-kicking mules. Mules which gain silly names, epithets (i.e. "Headkicker The Requiem of Helmets"), and are immortalized in world history for their single act of violence.

[Particle_Man]

I could be wrong, but I thought I had heard that the way they will make a bugbear challenging to a high level party is to have rules for making groups of them dangerous. Thus a sufficiently large number of bugbears would be a serious threat.

[Envyus]

I could be wrong, but I thought I had heard that the way they will make a bugbear challenging to a high level party is to have rules for making groups of them dangerous. Thus a sufficiently large number of bugbears would be a serious threat.

Indeed. But some people like me will want some bugbears to be more dangerous then others.

[Tholomyes]

I could be wrong, but I thought I had heard that the way they will make a bugbear challenging to a high level party is to have rules for making groups of them dangerous. Thus a sufficiently large number of bugbears would be a serious threat.Except this isn't always the best way for the narrative to do this. Sometimes having massive numbers of identical bugbears isn't the appropriate way for the campaign. As I mentioned above, you don't even need the exaggerated CR 20 bugbear to need rules for monster advancement. Even the CR 3 Bugbear leader, leading a group of CR 1 Bugbears still needs monster advancement.

[akaddk]

Indeed. But some people like me will want some bugbears to be more dangerous then others.

And why do you need rules for that?

Look up a monster at the right level with similar abilities and either reflavour it or create your own. Either way it would take as much time as "advancing" a creature or giving it a template.

[Envyus]

And why do you need rules for that?

Look up a monster at the right level with similar abilities and either reflavour it or create your own. Either way it would take as much time as "advancing" a creature or giving it a template.

Listen people just like having the rules for advancing monsters. Even if it is just info on how to give them class levels it should be in the book. This argument is also super pointless given that they said Monster advancement stuff was in the Monster Manuel.

[da_chicken]

And why do you need rules for that?

Look up a monster at the right level with similar abilities and either reflavour it or create your own. Either way it would take as much time as "advancing" a creature or giving it a template.

I want rules so I don't have to do that. Doing that is a pain in the ass because there is invariably something that doesn't equate well, so you have to track down three or four creatures to figure it out. If you're trying to advance something that has no higher level analog, you're just SoL.

[akaddk]

I want rules so I don't have to do that. Doing that is a pain in the ass because there is invariably something that doesn't equate well, so you have to track down three or four creatures to figure it out. If you're trying to advance something that has no higher level analog, you're just SoL.
See, this is the mentality I just don't get. "If there isn't a rule or a table for it, then it's just too hard!"

I guess some people lead and others follow.

[pwykersotz]

See, this is the mentality I just don't get. "If there isn't a rule or a table for it, then it's just too hard!"

I guess some people lead and others follow.

That's a bit unkind. Some people simply like putting their creative energy toward other things.

[da_chicken]

See, this is the mentality I just don't get. "If there isn't a rule or a table for it, then it's just too hard!"

I guess some people lead and others follow.

Then why do you buy books at all? Just make it all up!

[Tholomyes]

See, this is the mentality I just don't get. "If there isn't a rule or a table for it, then it's just too hard!"

I guess some people lead and others follow.It's not about it being "too hard." As a DM, I have a ton of other things I have to deal with and plan. I don't want to have to work on building my own monsters (from scratch, as opposed to actually having guidelines for monster building which you seem to oppose as well) every time I want something that's not exactly as it is in the books. I would much rather just have a guidelines for stuff like this, so I can spend my prep time on more useful things.

[Fwiffo86]

Then why do you buy books at all? Just make it all up!

this is my opinion on every book beyond the core books.

[rlc]

Except this isn't always the best way for the narrative to do this. Sometimes having massive numbers of identical bugbears isn't the appropriate way for the campaign. As I mentioned above, you don't even need the exaggerated CR 20 bugbear to need rules for monster advancement. Even the CR 3 Bugbear leader, leading a group of CR 1 Bugbears still needs monster advancement.

one thing they did in the starter set is have a goblin leader (not the leader of all of the goblins in the adventure) with its hp set to the max that they can have on a normal roll.
take that as you will.

[akaddk]

this is my opinion on every book beyond the core books.

Heh, me to. I guess some people are just creative and others aren't :D

[da_chicken]

Heh, me to. I guess some people are just creative and others aren't :D

There's no need to be condescending or presumptuous. Between work, family, and my other obligations I don't have time to generate a campaign setting, monsters, dungeons, etc. Sometimes I don't even have time to read a prepared module.

[akaddk]

There's no need to be condescending or presumptuous. Between work, family, and my other obligations I don't have time to generate a campaign setting, monsters, dungeons, etc. Sometimes I don't even have time to read a prepared module.

I guess some people take forums too seriously and others don't.

[Sartharina]

Then why do you buy books at all? Just make it all up!There's a wide gulf between making everything up wholecloth and rigidly sticking to printed letters on a page. Books provide guidelines, frameworks, toolkits, examples, new ideas, better math (Sometimes), more data points, and new mechanics to play with and tinker with.

[Fwiffo86]

There's no need to be condescending or presumptuous. Between work, family, and my other obligations I don't have time to generate a campaign setting, monsters, dungeons, etc. Sometimes I don't even have time to read a prepared module.

If I came across as condescending it was entirely accidental. I apologize if it upset anyone.

[da_chicken]

There's a wide gulf between making everything up wholecloth and rigidly sticking to printed letters on a page. Books provide guidelines, frameworks, toolkits, examples, new ideas, better math (Sometimes), more data points, and new mechanics to play with and tinker with.

Rhetorical question.


If I came across as condescending it was entirely accidental. I apologize if it upset anyone.

You didn't upset me at all.

[Sartharina]

Rhetorical question.An ineffective one, considering that any point it could try to make is easily undermined. Like "What have the Romans ever done for us?"

[da_chicken]

An ineffective one, considering that any point it could try to make is easily undermined. Like "What have the Romans ever done for us?"

Yes, that was the point. You're supposed to say, "Well, I can think of any number of things," and then you're supposed to realize, "Hey most of these lines of argument also apply to the comment he was responding to! They're both equally absurd!" Then you're supposed to realize that I couldn't possibly have meant to agree with whom I was responding to with something so patently absurd and that instead I was commenting on the absurdity of it. Then you're supposed to realize that getting someone to post an answer to the question wasn't the point of the post at all.

In other words, it was a rhetorical question.