DM Advice - Countering Party Healbot

[RolandDeschain]

The party I'm DMing contains a Radiant Servant of Pelor, and I'm looking for a spell(no save) that will shut down his healing without killing/disabling him. Any suggestions?

Will the Alliance Undone spell counteract his Divine Ward feat?

Do I simply need to build a dedicated counterspelling evil cleric?

[eggynack]

I can't really think of anything, but I'm vaguely inclined to think that the answer is just orb of fire. That thing definitely counters healing pretty well, and without a save at that, apart from the one for the rider effect.

[Segev]

What is the actual problem you're trying to solve? Under most circumstances, "healbot" is the LEAST offensive and dangerous thing to a DM's plans (and monsters) that a player of a cleric can do. So let's make sure we really understand the problem before we try to "fix" something in a way that will only break it worse. What do you see as the problem now, and if whatever you do to fix it works, what do you envision things being like?

[Balor01]

You must simply not be a **** and refrain from building creatures that will directly counter certain PC power.

Also as Segev said. Healbot is NEVER a problem.

[RolandDeschain]

I'm certainly well aware of how "inefficient" or "suboptimal" in combat healing is.

I simply want to shut this guy down. I'm looking for the 'perfect' counter to each party member's most potent ability for the next encounter. While in combat healing is NOT the most potent or offensive thing a cleric can do(far from it), it is this character's entire focus.

I'm not going in with the mindset of killing the party, but rather introducing what I hope will be a long term nemesis.

[Balor01]

So what they are facing is a powerful thieves guild that has been stalking/scrying them (unnoticed) for a month?

Cmon man what you are trying to pull off is just silly.

[Zanos]

I feel kind of bad for enabling this, but the violate spell metamagic feat from BoVD makes half the damage dealt by a spell vile damage, which can only be healed by magic cast in a consecrated or hallowed area. Adds +1 to spell level.

[JusticeZero]

Aren't there a couple of abilities that flip a character from positive to negative for awhile? I know there are some PF cleric builds that use them to heal with negative energy channeling..

[RolandDeschain]

Balor, I want to screw with their head's, not kill them or permanently negate their abilities. The BBEG has been watching them for quite some time and has numerous minions at his disposal, he can certainly assemble a team customized to counteract a great many of their abilities. I'm looking at a hit and run scenario that will probably last only a handful of rounds(for mostly recon), and am assuming that in that brief amount of time my "strike force" will take numerous casualties - heck, they might all die.

[Baldin]

You could cast the spell "lifeward"(Spell compendium) on them. It does allow a will-save but if someone fails he/she is immune to positive energy and thus can't be healed by it.

[RolandDeschain]

I should mention as well, that I expect the party to research/investigate counters to my counters, which I will not only allow, but actually encourage....

Does anybody have any thoughts on the Alliance Undone spell and it's interaction with Divine Ward?

[Balor01]

If I was a player I'd be pretty pissed about this. I never mind being defeated by random opponent or an opponent who is using his resources really good or the one that scouts and buffs up before battle. But if someone popped in front of my PC and went "hey, I am a perfect counter to you because I totally datamined you(and all your friends) while you noticed NOTHING", I'd be pretty pissed OOC.

Just a word of caution. Your intentions may be good but execution sounds anger-inducing. That's all I have to say on this.

[fishyfishyfishy]

Stop a cleric? Destroy his/her divine focus with a shatter spell or something similar and drop a silence near them.

I won't assume that I understand the situation at your gaming table, but it is generally bad form to negate any characters abilities without chance of overcoming it. The above spells both offer saving throws so this is perfectly acceptable.

[BWR]

The Blackmantle spell from 2e. Don't think there is an official conversion but it could look something like this:

Blackmantle
(Necromancy)
Level: Sor/Wiz 6
Casting time: 1 standard action
Components: V, S, M
Duration: 1 round/level
Range: medium
Area of Effect: 20 foot radius emanation
Saving throw: Fortitude negates
Spell resistance: yes

This spell creates a shimmering aura around all creatures in the area that fail the save. The aura prevents the target from being affected by any form of healing for the duration, whether magical or natural, fast healing, regeneration, hit points, ability score, any restoration of a missing abilities.
Material components: a small mummified animal.

[RolandDeschain]

If I was a player I'd be pretty pissed about this. I never mind being defeated by random opponent or an opponent who is using his resources really good or the one that scouts and buffs up before battle. But if someone popped in front of my PC and went "hey, I am a perfect counter to you because I totally datamined you(and all your friends) while you noticed NOTHING", I'd be pretty pissed OOC.

Just a word of caution. Your intentions may be good but execution sounds anger-inducing. That's all I have to say on this.

I didn't post the entire back story because I'm not a huge fan of the dread "wall of text". The party is well aware that they've been watched and have taken measures to stop it as well as doing some watching and planning of their own

[Zanos]

If I was a player I'd be pretty pissed about this. I never mind being defeated by random opponent or an opponent who is using his resources really good or the one that scouts and buffs up before battle. But if someone popped in front of my PC and went "hey, I am a perfect counter to you because I totally datamined you(and all your friends) while you noticed NOTHING", I'd be pretty pissed OOC.

Just a word of caution. Your intentions may be good but execution sounds anger-inducing. That's all I have to say on this.
Eh, I've done it before. Although the last was when someone decided to retire their previous character by joining the Big Bag, so he knew all of their abilities. Protip: don't give me an Evil FS Transmuter. He came back as a lich, buffed his dispel check to mess with the DMM Persist Cleric, Put protection from fire on himself and his minions to mess with the sorcerer, and was already immune to the lightning gish's electricity already.

Hilarity ensued.

[fishyfishyfishy]

Oh I just thought of another easy way: counterspelling. There's no need to go looking for obscure ways to counter specific character abilities when they already exist in the core rules. You can build an enemy cleric that has that domain that gives +4 on dispels (I want to say it's the inquisition domain) and have a bunch of dispel magic prepared.

[Cloud]

So long as this is because you want a counter to each player for plot reasons, not a counter because healing is too effective...

You might want to take a look at the Necrotic Curse spell from Complete Mage. Though that option aside from being high level only works if you can go in with the spell already cast and at a high caster level. Graymantle is a Spell Compendium spell that would seem to be a reprint of 2e's Blackmantle.

I wouldn't suggest using counter spelling, it's a horrible tactic, but if you are going to go that route, the best counter speller is a warmage/evoker/sorcerer that readies an action to hit the healer with the biggest blast he can to force an impossible concentration check.

[RolandDeschain]

Oh I just thought of another easy way: counterspelling. There's no need to go looking for obscure ways to counter specific character abilities when they already exist in the core rules. You can build an enemy cleric that has that domain that gives +4 on dispels (I want to say it's the inquisition domain) and have a bunch of dispel magic prepared.

Yeah, I was actually thinking this as well.

[Segev]

Alright, so you're looking for the "perfect counter" for specific encounter(s).

Look up the Quell in Libris Mortis. I'm AFB, but IIRC it rolls a Turn attempt and, if it succeeds, cuts off clerics from their divine power. I can't remember if it's just their turn/rebuke power it cuts off, or all spellcasting.

In the same book lies the Mother Cyst feat and the line of Necrotic spells it enables. Half the damage done by any of the damage-dealing Necrotic spells is Vile, which can't be healed outside of the emanation of a Consecration spell.

But perhaps the "best" answer to a healbot is not to negate him...but to hire his evil counterpart. Either an honestly evil cleric healbot for undead minions, or a neutral cleric healbot for living ones. Don't counter his build, but instead make this encounter one wherein the party has to deal with the enemies being as invincible as they might usually feel.

[Darrin]

Otiluke's Impressing Field (Complete Mage) can be used to discourage or shut down Conjuration (Healing) spells within a 20' radius of the caster. The RSoP would have to make a caster level check against DC 11 + grudgemonger's CL. You probably want to buff up the grudgemonger's CL to just high enough that the RSoP can still get a spell off with a lucky roll. If the RSoP gets whiny about this, you can point out the math involved and give him an idea of what he needs to do to buff up his caster level check. If you need more coverage, you can Widen/Sudden Widen it to a 40' radius, or have some minions cast it via Skull Talisman/Glyph Seal/Shallantha's Delicate Disk.

Otiluke's Impressing Field can itself be dispelled, which will involve a caster level check with about the same odds. However, if the party doesn't witness the OIF being cast and thus never gets a Spellcraft check to identify it, they are unlikely to know WTF is going on (it's not a widely known spell) and may cry shenanigans. If you really want to piss 'em off, add the typical Globe of Invulnerability/Spellblades/Spell Immunity schticks to counter targeted dispels.

[fishyfishyfishy]

I wouldn't suggest using counter spelling, it's a horrible tactic, but if you are going to go that route, the best counter speller is a warmage/evoker/sorcerer that readies an action to hit the healer with the biggest blast he can to force an impossible concentration check.

It's not that bad of a tactic for NPCs that are built for it. It's a simple way of stopping the character from healing long enough for their allies to lay the beat down on them.

The held action damager tactic can work but you run the risk of outright killing the pc instead of just stoping them from being effective for a short while. It depends on what you want to accomplish with the encounter.

[Wacky89]

there's also posion from a Tomb Spider (MM4 p. 164)

The poison deals 1d4 dmg and makes the target healed by negative energy and damaged by positive for 1 minute

[John Longarrow]

Perfect counter for a heal bot is Save or Suck spells. Nothing to heal means they've got nothing to do.
If ALL of the enemies are doing non-HP damage (Charms, Ability damage, BFC) then the healbot generally sits there doing less than normal.

[Crake]

Perfect counter for a heal bot is Save or Suck spells. Nothing to heal means they've got nothing to do.
If ALL of the enemies are doing non-HP damage (Charms, Ability damage, BFC) then the healbot generally sits there doing less than normal.

Thats not so much a counter as much as it is an avoidance of the issue altogether. The DM is getting the BBEG to prove a point "Anything you can do, I can do better". What you're suggesting is along the lines of saying "The counter to someone's chess strategy is to toss away the chessboard and declare yourself the winner"

[MasterFu]

there's also posion from a Tomb Spider (MM4 p. 164)

The poison deals 1d4 dmg and makes the target healed by negative energy and damaged by positive for 1 minute

This. Convert it to an inhalation poison, adjust save DC as needed. Not too hard for the players to deal with once they've encountered it, either.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Cloistered Cleric (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#clericVariantCloistere dCleric) 1/ Paladin of Tyranny (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#paladinVariantsFreedom SlaughterAndTyranny) X
Cleric gets Knowledge Devotion instead of that domain, with the Time and Inquisition domains. Knowledge Devotion career class skill is Kn: Arcana.
Paladin uses the Divine Counterspell ACF in CM, and the Charging Smite ACF in PH2.

Feats should include Practiced Spellcaster: Paladin at 1st or 3rd and Divine Defiance in FCII at 6th. He can spend a Cleric turn/rebuke use counterspell as an immediate action, using Divine Counterspell with a dispel check of X+3, where X is the above Paladin class level. This check can be further increased by items that improve his effective level for Rebuke Undead, such as a Mace of the Dark Children (+3) and Scepter of the Netherworld (+3) in MIC. Also consider giving him Extra Smiting in CW at least once. Prioritize Cha over all other stats.

If he didn't counterspell between his last turn and his current one, he can cast Rhino's Rush via Paladin and charge in with Charging Smite. Charging Smite adds three times his Paladin level to his damage before doubling all his damage for that attack, since it's an additional two damage per Paladin level and Smite Evil already adds one damage per Paladin level. If he's 10th level (Paladin 9) with Str 14 and a Mace of the Dark Children he'll deal 2d8+90 damage with this hit. He can even get a Wand Chamber from Dungeonscape in that with a Wand of Rhino's Rush, which has an activation time identical to the spell's casting time per Rules Compendium.

This character is intended to put someone in urgent need of healing, and then stop it from happening.


Alternatively, just throw in a Totemist with the Corrupt Creature template in BoVD, which deals vile damage on every attack.

[DarkSonic1337]

Putting in a vote for the tomb spider poison. The first time they encounter the poison they'll be going "wtf! The healbot hurt me?" But once they figure out what's going on it's pretty easy to prepare for next time (the healbot probably knows what remove poison is).

[jiriku]

Thats not so much a counter as much as it is an avoidance of the issue altogether. The DM is getting the BBEG to prove a point "Anything you can do, I can do better". What you're suggesting is along the lines of saying "The counter to someone's chess strategy is to toss away the chessboard and declare yourself the winner"

Kobayashi Maru. It's a time-honored tactic.

My vote is for antimagic field. Stops healing spells cold. Also has the virtue of being obvious, and therefore not seeming like a dirty trick.

[MrBright01]

My vote is for antimagic field. Stops healing spells cold. Also has the virtue of being obvious, and therefore not seeming like a dirty trick.

Seconded. A Monk with good move speed, an urge to pummel healers, and a single use amulet that makes an Antimagic Field, given to them by the big bad for that very purpose. Uses stealth and acrobatics to get to the healbot asap, and does all they can to keep them in the field.

As long as we're talking monk, let's talk Grapple. Grapple will shut down just about everything not ready for it. Great anti-player tool. Yes, yes, grapple suuuuucks, but it might be worth it for the look on the player's faces when you blow the dust off that section of the rules and lay it on them.

[John Longarrow]

Thats not so much a counter as much as it is an avoidance of the issue altogether. The DM is getting the BBEG to prove a point "Anything you can do, I can do better". What you're suggesting is along the lines of saying "The counter to someone's chess strategy is to toss away the chessboard and declare yourself the winner"

More along the lines of "How to you shut down a melee fighter? Make sure they can't hit you." Original poster was looking for a way to counter a heal bot. Making them not relevant is more effective than trying to counter each spell they cast.

[Ehcks]

Damage. More damage. Even more damage.

Figure out his average and peak effectiveness, and do more damage than that. Make him feel that he just can't keep up. That the fight has to end soon or they'll all die, and then keep dragging it on.

Countering a player with omniscient foresight and giving the NPCs weird obscure tricks they'd never otherwise have is going to break suspension of disbelief. Adding more enemies or more magical weapons or simply better damage rolls will bring the same desperation with more subtlety.

[Guancyto]

I didn't post the entire back story because I'm not a huge fan of the dread "wall of text". The party is well aware that they've been watched and have taken measures to stop it as well as doing some watching and planning of their own
Okay, so this is an ongoing game of cat-and-mouse with the BBEG, who has discovered some of their synergies and is attempting to exploit them. I'm down.

Thirding the Tomb Spider Poison, then. That's something with a clear and distinct effect that's a big surprise, that you can research and develop counters to (be it memorizing Inflict spells when they go to fight him, grabbing potions of neutralize poison, etc.).

[Diachronos]

Maybe creatures with effects that prevent healing, like vargouilles?

[Jeff the Green]

If you want to counterspell, go with Sorcerer 1/Shadowcaster 3/Noctumancer with Arcane Mastery, Reactive Counterspell, Practiced Spellcaster, and as many CL boosters as you can get.

[AMFV]

Okay, so this is an ongoing game of cat-and-mouse with the BBEG, who has discovered some of their synergies and is attempting to exploit them. I'm down.

Thirding the Tomb Spider Poison, then. That's something with a clear and distinct effect that's a big surprise, that you can research and develop counters to (be it memorizing Inflict spells when they go to fight him, grabbing potions of neutralize poison, etc.).

Fourthing the Tomb Spider Poison, as it's easy to counter in later fights (and therefore won't be repeatedly unfair) but will be a hell of a big surprise for one fight. The important thing is that the counter can't be 100% effective all the time or that player will just become useless frequently, which isn't fun, but it needs to be very effective the first time.

[RolandDeschain]

Fourthing the Tomb Spider Poison, as it's easy to counter in later fights (and therefore won't be repeatedly unfair) but will be a hell of a big surprise for one fight. The important thing is that the counter can't be 100% effective all the time or that player will just become useless frequently, which isn't fun, but it needs to be very effective the first time.

This was exactly what I was thinking.

Thanks for all the suggestions ladies and gents.

[Wacky89]

This was exactly what I was thinking.

Thanks for all the suggestions ladies and gents.

Glad to be of help :)

[RolandDeschain]

Thanks wacky.

Credit, where credit is due.

[Honest Tiefling]

Unless he's got some trick to get a lot of healing per day, the BBEG could use some tactics to sap the healing, if there's a village or the like nearby. I assume the BBEG has plenty of dead bodies on hand, so depending on the magic level, just keep chucking those into wells. I imagine those villagers are probably going to head to the cleric of Pelor for aid. Some of them could even be plants for the BBEG, seeing how tapped out the cleric is to decided when to strike.

Or shut him down AS he's healing the townsfolk.

[Adverb]

RolandDeschain, some slightly more general suggestion about this encounter you're planning:

Consider going out of your way to make the tricks the PCs have access to, but haven't used recently, still work. Especially if you see them planning to hold stuff in reserve to deal with this problem.

[SiuiS]

Assassin's curse spell. Damage from it cannot be healed until a remove curse is cast. Use it strategically. Set it up so that only a certain amount of the damage cannot be healed, keep a separate tally. Basically, tell each player hit "you take five damage, and your maximum HP has gone down by three until further notice". The heal not cleric then has to maximize his ability to heal the damage he can while being aware that it's not enough. This will put pressure on the team of dwindling HP without just saying "sorry you can't play today". It's dramatic, scary, and a direct counter to heal not without any of the usual problems. Make the user of this ability sadistic, too, targeting based on what will emotionally compromise the cleric the most.

[AnonymousPepper]

Try Blasphemix poison from Complete Scoundrel. I can't paste the text here but it forces a DC22 Fort save, or else the divine caster afflicted has to make DC15+spell level CL checks for the next ten rounds to cast any spell.

[ezkajii]

Three monsters to consider: Spellgaunt, Nishruu, and Trilloch.
The spellgaunt's disjunctive bite causes fort save vs. lose spellcasting ability for 1d2 rounds. Not a huge thing, but effective enough if you pit a couple of them on the healer, with some templates/class levels (CR 12).
Nishruu are incorporeal and immune to most magic (Even benefitting from it), while sapping spellcasters of their highest level spell slots on mere exposure.
Trillochs are naturally invisible and incorporeal, and have can cause all creatures in a 180ft radius to enter a rage uncontrollably. It's low CR (8) but beef it up some or throw in a whole cluster of them around the casters. Shut that spellcasting down altogether for a little while.

Re: counterspelling, if you're up against an ECL 30 healer then it shouldn't be a problem at all to work Epic Counterspelling into a build, Combine with 10 levels of loredelver to spontaneously convert prepared spells of 6th level or higher into greater dispel magic at will.

[draken50]

Ummmm... I suck at optimizing, but could you build a ranged attacker who is constantly readied to attack when the cleric casts.

So then he may be making some concentration checks. Toss some of the poisons people recommend or the like on too maybe?

[Kuulvheysoon]

Three monsters to consider: Spellgaunt, Nishruu, and Trilloch.
The spellgaunt's disjunctive bite causes fort save vs. lose spellcasting ability for 1d2 rounds. Not a huge thing, but effective enough if you pit a couple of them on the healer, with some templates/class levels (CR 12).
Nishruu are incorporeal and immune to most magic (Even benefitting from it), while sapping spellcasters of their highest level spell slots on mere exposure.
Trillochs are naturally invisible and incorporeal, and have can cause all creatures in a 180ft radius to enter a rage uncontrollably. It's low CR (8) but beef it up some or throw in a whole cluster of them around the casters. Shut that spellcasting down altogether for a little while.

Re: counterspelling, if you're up against an ECL 30 healer then it shouldn't be a problem at all to work Epic Counterspelling into a build, Combine with 10 levels of loredelver to spontaneously convert prepared spells of 6th level or higher into greater dispel magic at will.

All excellent monster suggestions, but no mention of the Lifeleech Otyugh? any healing spells cast within 30ft either are stolen or duplicated onto it (can't remember which right now). "Punish" them by giving their enemies the same benefits that they get.

[ezkajii]

All excellent monster suggestions, but no mention of the Lifeleech Otyugh? any healing spells cast within 30ft either are stolen or duplicated onto it (can't remember which right now). "Punish" them by giving their enemies the same benefits that they get.

Ah! I forgot about that one! Good call. And for the record, "the otyugh gains the benefit of the healing spell as if it had been one of the spell's targets." even granting temporary hit points if the spell would take it above its normal maximum. It also affects spell completion and spell trigger items.

[RolandDeschain]

Wow. These are all fantastic suggestions that I'm going to "bank" for the future.

We played out the encounter last night and everything went smashingly. I had a dedicated counterspeller who did a pretty amazing job, and utilized the Ebon Ray of Doom spell as well as Alliance Undone like I originally planned.

Of course, the party still kicked arse and took names, but the first couple of rounds had them floundering when their normal tricks didn't work.

Objective accomplished. The party emerged victorious, but are now leery of the BBEG's level of preparation and escalation.