Upping the difficulty for a party

[Thealtruistorc]

I have a very resourceful party, capable of taking down above-level thrests with little difficulty. Our rogue is an expert at terrain manipulation, weaving his way around the battlefield to get in sneak attack range regardless of the defense setup. Our power-gaming fighter is downright nightmarish, able to charge into the foe headlong and tear apart most anything within two turns. The cleric and sorcerer are defensive strategists, holding to the rear and forcing the monsters to try to get past the fighter (who I should mention has reach) while they dole out debuff after debuff to the point where all they have to do is sit back and watch the melee members tear the foe to ribbons. Finally, we have a skirmishing investigator who goes around dealing ability damage with his poisons while taking potshots with his explosives and crossbow.

I don't wish to make them stop, though. I want to give them a challenge they would find worthy (evil laugh).

We have a boss fight coming up, and I as the DM want to make it as memorably brutal as possible. I intend for it to be a very close fight, and I want advice from you guys. How do I make a highly challenging but still fun encounter for my team?

[Gabrosin]

A short-range immediate (or readied) action teleport can mess with a charger pretty well, as can hitting him with debuffs like slow. Light/heavy fortification or naturally immune creature types can reduce or eliminate the rogue's sneak attack damage. Teleportation, again, is a way to get next to the spellcasters and put pressure on them; illusions would be another, drawing out the frontliners while the real threat(s) sneak their way in from another angle.

How well can the casters stand up to spells like silence and antimagic field?

[Curmudgeon]

Difficult terrain will make charging difficult (duh!), and concealment will stymie sneak attacks. Blocking line of sight will foil all targeted spells. So if you set an encounter in a swamp with lots of trees, mud to slog through, and fog, you'll challenge the whole party without needing to change your enemies at all.

[sideswipe]

i would make them fight a party of 4 at a similar level to them (same would be the best bet but if the party has a mix of levels then the average)

a conjurer with abrupt jaunt and celerity if he runs out. so he cannot get charged by the fighter or any melee's and make him a debuffer or a counterspell specialist.

a DMM quicken cleric. depending on their level. the persist cleric is better as a character, but the quicken cleric would be more powerful as a boss i think. buffing the enemy party with area buffs whilst quickening for free any debuffs at the player party. essentially you only need them for 1 fight so you need it to be as one trick and as optimal as possible. also have the fate domain to stop the rogue. you can take spontaneous restoration ACF (cant remember official name) to counter out the ability damage

have a warblade as the "melee" of the party, and make use of white raven, diamond mind and iron heart. they also get uncanny dodge and improved version so that shuts out the rogue's sneak attack. make sure to give some sort of short teleport (maybe as a free or swift action. i have never built a higher then 7th level warblade) so it can run up to the casters if need be, and beat them around the face even if they use a short teleport in response as you have one too. and enough ranks in tumble shuts out the reach fighter.

and have as the last member, i would say a pixie rogue. sneak up on the casters or any of the other hiding characters and have the pixie use a gnome quick razor, have him hit them many times with some sort of pounce or item to allow movement and full attack. and put some points into iaijitsu focus.
so you will get at say lvl 10 with not mush damage optimisation 2-4 attacks (twf) with about 5-10 d6 damage on each attack, and with a dex of stupid cuz pixie and weapon finesse.
thier job is to hunt down the ability damage, the rogue if it is a hider or the casters if the warblade is tied up with the melee's.

so a debuff counterspell wizard that teleports a few feet from danger.

a buff/debuff quickened so use both cleric that cannot be sneak attacked

a warblade who just ignores AoO and has counters to mage run techniques and rogues

and a pixie assassin who goes where needed and unless they concentrate efforts will not be found.


go nuts :smallbiggrin:



EDIT - maybe this is too evil....

[Regissoma]

May I ask what the party level is? That would be pretty helpful, but so far the ideas the other guys have given you are pretty solid. If you want to add onto sideswipe idea just make the warblade a bardblade. What hurts more than a competent melee is one that buffs all the other party members while pounding someones face in. Don't forget difficult terrain and using soft and hard cover from the terrain, because you can't charge through difficult terrain normally. And do not forget displacement if you want the enemies to actually be hard, because nothing says nope than just saying you hit but you didn't as you swing at his image. Spellcasters having blur/displacement/mirror image and melee users using a scroll or having someone cast the spell on them first round of combat.

Another thing to think about is where are they fighting said boss. I mean if the boss(es) know the party is coming, having a few traps laid out onto the battlefield is fair game. Also do not, DO NOT, have a single creature/thing/-insert random single object/construct/unholy magic kabob here- as a boss. Give the boss(es) additional moves or actions due to spells or items, use normal mooks swarming in. If they are at that kind of power level use flying creatures if you have to get to the casters. Swarm creatures are good to use too.

If I were to be really mean I would have a buff/debuffer wizard or other arcane caster with levels in War Weaver. First round of combat if they are around level 10, the War Weavers turn use a move action to cast all spells stored in the weave and possibly have it effect all members in the weave should they be close enough. Immeditaly afterwards, I would have said War Weaver cast Obscuring Fog/ other concealment spell denying line of sight. This also gimps the rogue because full concealment makes it to where the rogue cannot usually sneak attack. With miss chances, concealment, and denial of line of sight, the party has to get creative.

If none of that works, do not be afraid to homebrew creatures with unique abilities, because this is D&D, you're the DM, and MAGIC!

[Thealtruistorc]

First off, this is Pathfinder. I forgot to mention that. The fighter has taken some feats from 3.5 though so it's possible to fudge some things.

The party is level 8, and is composed of the above members as well as a wizard and a second cleric (though they are low-op next to the rest of the party). The encounter I have planned so far goes as follows (Tom, Ben, if either of you are on this thread, stop reading now):

The PCs enter into a funnel-shaped room with a portal in the center, guarded by two grappler astral constructs and a third pouncing one (all level 6). On the elevated edges of the room are four manifesters trying to awaken some creature from within the portal: A 10th-level psion (shaper), an 8th-level psion (telepath), a 10th-level vitalist and a 10th-level tactician. The four of them already have a metaconcert set up, with the shaper as the master. The idea is to have the astral constructs grapple the PCs as the four manifesters tear them apart with their manifesting. How would you guys make this setup harder?

[jiriku]

Get out of the funnel-shaped room. It serves no purpose other than to force your NPCs to always be in charge range. Try a vast cavern consisting of several platforms suspended above an abyss. Equip at least one or two of your casters with flight, feather fall effects, and dimension door (so if their flight is dispelled, they can feather fall/dimension door back to a platform). Connect the platforms with bridges. Trap the bridges.

[MrBright01]

1) Numbers: If they can slay anything in a round or two, spread out the XP a little and get several smaller critters.

2) Range: A heavily optimized long range shooter with a safe method of escape can chip away at the melee, then escape then they arrive. At that point, the magically concealed melee monster appears near the casters and runs amok. When the melee make it back to the fight, bring out the ranged again.

3) Ambush: Ambush party strikes the party while at rest and before casters get full rest. Get in the first shot!

STUDENT: Yes, master. I have learned two things. First, that anger is a weapon only to one's opponent.

MASTER: Very good.

STUDENT2: And secondly, get in the first shot. Boot to the head. (SH-ZOOMP!)

(Bonus points for knowing where this came from)

4) The good ol' Duplication mirror. Make copies, and fight them with yourselves. Observe how they win. Use it against them at a later date.

[(Un)Inspired]

Using astral constructs to go into melee with their fighter and rogue just plays to their strengths. I agree with other posters that putting your manifester npcs in kill box will end with an easy peasy PC victory.

First get all your enemies flying. If you party is prone to dispelling then give them wing grafts and flying mounts to sit on. This should cut down on the rogue and the fighters ability to engage them.

Open up combat by having one of your manifesters web your sorcerer and cleric and the other cast silence on a pebble at their feet. I'm not sure if pathfinder has psionic equivalents for silence and web but you can always have your manifesters UMD scrolls of both.

A simple wind wall should shut down you inquisitors poison arrows.


Now just have your manifesters manifest psionic minor creation to create black lotus poison and control air to blow it at your pcs.


This is all pretty low level stuff you can use against them. No need to jack up the cr.

[Nibbens]

Enemy with sunder/trip specialization. Break the heck out of the fighter's weapon, and knock him down so he can't charge or fight well - Melee down.
Silence/hold person/Sleep/Command cast on mage - Caster Down
Wall of ice to A) Separate players from each other. Isolate the mage and pair of rogues attack from him. All the other PC's are scrambling through the wall of ice to save their squishy friend. B) The archer will be rendered useless here too, cut off from his targets.
Also, why can't fighters begin fights with scrolls of bull strength (or whatever the constitution one is) already cast on them - sure it's metagaming, but you're the DM. It's what you do.
You can maximize HP of all enemies as well, fights will go longer and you'll give them a "rougher fight."

Two words: Ability damage

Two more words: Level Drain.

These last two options don't need to have tough encounters attached to them. If the level drainer hits one player before dying, good enough - You'll be burning through their resources in no time.

Concentrate on dwindling their gold reserves as well - when the fighter has to choose between a new magic long sword or a few scrolls to save him from your ability damage shenanigans, he'll be less effective overall

Lastly, but not least - let them be awesome. If they're enjoying their selves, then you're doing your job. Sounds like you have my problem. My guys are just very quick thinkers and great builders, so I have to get creative to challenge them. They should enjoy their power (for a time).

[Stellar_Magic]

Don't forget to consider giving your monsters class levels... The hilarity of a party thinking 'Oh it's just a troll' turning to horror when it turns out the troll has 5-6 levels of barbarian, never really gets old. Hell, I've had a deep dragon wyrmling give a party of 10th level fits just because I gave it class levels as a rogue and had it shoot and scoot.

Find some way to manipulate the terrain to your advantage... I've managed to challenge 11th and 12th level parties with kobolds just because I had the kobolds attack them in the middle of the night under a magical spell of darkness or deeper darkness... Give them poisons... anything a PC would carry to even the playing field.

Use poisons... If the enemy tends to charge your monsters, throw a pit trap between you and them. There's nothing as funny as having someone charge and right before he rolls to attack you say. "Reflex Save."

That tunnel, rig it with explosives so that the baddies can collapse it if they see them coming (making them approach with stealth or end up getting there after the baddies have buffed up and finished their ritual business). My personal favorite is to use the kobold explosives (don't remember the name) from 3.5 as their yields were ridiculously random... Sometimes they do 1 damage, sometimes they did 40+

Also, use the combat maneuvers if you're playing Pathfinder. I know a lot of 3.5 vets ignore them, but I've had a lot of success throwing Improved Disarm on dragon builds to face the PCs. The fighter is exceptionally susceptible to being disarmed, as suddenly he has to recover his weapons before he's able to fight.

Another counter for a nightmarish charging fighter is the Polearm Fighter archetype... since I think they can get an attack of opportunity even against a charging foe.

If all else fails, try using swarms... they're one of the most difficult things to deal with for PCs due to their invulnerability to most direct attacks and unblockable damage. It would give the wizard a chance to shine as he'd be more effective then the more OP characters.

[Silatuyok]

If I may suggest an approach other than combat, there is always Tuckers Kobolds :smallamused:

Seriously, a couple ladders over spike pits made to hold no more than 60 lbs, thrown in with drop chute ambushes in the middle of a rust monster blood sprinkler system and you suddenly have epic level adventurers cowering at the thought of a dozen level three lizardlings. there are whole threads about tucker traps, and how careful planning and a well laid out dungeon can ruin everyones day. by the end of the gauntlet you should make sure to have lots of treasure though, but only once you are certain they are too scared to touch it :smallwink:

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

The key is to challenge the players without utterly frustrating them. To that end...

Easy: Since your party is using 3.5 material, use creatures that are far too powerful for their CR (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?315230-The-most-unbalanced-monsters-for-each-CR-up-to-20-(or-so)). Avoid the truly ridiculous ones, like Adamantine Horror, and you should be fine. That's also a good place to find creatures whose CR is lower than their casting level. If your party is relatively low level, a swarm of allips might just be mean, but a large group of revived fossil baboons could be a tough CR-appropriate encounter.

Medium: Look at all those terrible feats monsters take. Swap them out for something useful. Look at all the treasure those creatures drop. Let them use it to their advantage. This is also a good way to give some mystery to your monsters. When the players make their knowledge check, you get to say "the typical [monster] has X traits", and when this particular monster pulls out an unlisted trick, well, this one is different.

Hard: Use smart monster tactics that aren't just metagame-y and filled with DM-fiat (use the part of tucker's kobolds that would make sense in-game, and follows the actual rules). The hardest part is making sure this doesn't get old fast.