Making the CW samurai viable

[m149307]

Is it possible to redeem this class and make it viable for gameplay?

[Karnith]

Are you looking for fixes/reworks of the class to make it actually worth using, or are you looking for ways to build a CW Samurai so that a character can contribute to a party?

[m149307]

Ways to contribute to a party in battle

[Karnith]

In that case, there are a few routes you can go with it. Samurai are pretty good with Intimidation tactics (Shneekey's Takahashi no Onisan (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=153726) being the poster child for it) - Mass Staredown is a pretty good ability, especially when combined with feats like Imperious Command (Drow of the Underdark; demoralized foes cower for a round). They're also full BAB, so you can make a fairly decent charger just by going the old Shock Trooper route, which isn't necessarily so feat intensive that it would necessarily preclude Intimidation tactics (though just doing the Intimidate-lockdown thing is probably going to be better).

Incidentally, I'd recommend not going the TWF route that the class seems to want you to take, because Samurai really don't have a good source of damage while using it.

Or you could just use Samurai to get into Ronin with bonuses. This is actually kinda good (and better than just being a Samurai) because it gives you class features that are worth using (Sneak Attack and Banzai Charge) and lets you retain the good parts of being a Samurai.

[m149307]

Is it worth taking to level 10 for the mass staredown, or just prestige into the other class as soon as possible?

[toapat]

really, it depends on why you want the Samurai class

If you want their fighting style, Ranger is straight up better and more interesting, and the animal companion can be used as a mount

If you want mass staredown, a full Optimization Zhentarim fighter is the same thing but better, plus dungeoncrasher options.

Otherwise, its better to just rush Rhonin.

[Karnith]

Is it worth taking to level 10 for the mass staredown, or just prestige into the other class as soon as possible?
Mass Staredown is really good if you're going for the fear-based lockdown type of build, so I would certainly say that it's worth it (inasmuch as any amount of Samurai is "worth it"). You can get something similar from other sources (Scarlet Corsair and Dread Pirate), but not so easily from a Samurai base. If you want to go the Ronin route, then going Samurai 10/Ronin X or Samurai 11/Ronin 1 (and trading away all of your Samurai levels for immediate Ronin goodies) are both fine. And honestly, at lower-to-mid-op levels, Samurai 10/Zhentarim Fighter 10 isn't a terrible choice, either.

If you're not doing the Intimidate thing, though, get out of Samurai as fast as possible. Fear shenanigans are fun (even if it has some fairly stiff competition from other classes), but without them the class just doesn't offer enough to be worth taking.

[Vogonjeltz]

really, it depends on why you want the Samurai class

If you want their fighting style, Ranger is straight up better and more interesting, and the animal companion can be used as a mount

If you want mass staredown, a full Optimization Zhentarim fighter is the same thing but better, plus dungeoncrasher options.

Otherwise, its better to just rush Rhonin.

Samurai can dual wield wearing heavy armor, and they both get the TWF line (samurai just gets locked into wielding bastard sword and short sword, which isn't a bad combination). If anything I'd say the samurai is a better choice because they are more likely to have the durability (armor and hp) to go into melee.

[toapat]

Samurai can dual wield wearing heavy armor, and they both get the TWF line (samurai just gets locked into wielding bastard sword and short sword, which isn't a bad combination). If anything I'd say the samurai is a better choice because they are more likely to have the durability (armor and hp) to go into melee.

1 Feat:

Sword of the Arcane Order

[VoxRationis]

But, if I recall correctly, the samurai has a ridiculous delay on its TWF progression for no apparent reason.

[Karnith]

Samurai can dual wield wearing heavy armor, and they both get the TWF line (samurai just gets locked into wielding bastard sword and short sword, which isn't a bad combination). If anything I'd say the samurai is a better choice because they are more likely to have the durability (armor and hp) to go into melee.
They could go the TWF route, but why would they want to? They have no good source of bonus damage, delayed access to TWF feats, and no other mechanical abilities synergizing with TWF (Kiai Smite is only usable once per round, and has crappy uses/day), so just using a katana two-handed is generally going to mechanically be better.

1 Feat:

Sword of the Arcane Order
Even discounting SotAO, just things like faster feat access, Favored Enemy, or Lion's Charge put Rangers ahead. Samurai have very little going for them on the TWF front.

[Iwasforger03]

They have a ridiculous delay and their only good class features are improved initiative and intimidation stuff. There are large discussions on exactly why CW samurai is bad, but suffice it to say nothing they have makes them more effective in combat twf than a ranger or a fighter taking two weapon fighting.

[.Zero]

If you're looking to having fun with CW Samurai, then look at Takahashi no Onisan (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=153726), by ShneekeyTheLost. It's a pretty solid Intimidate lockdown build, wich gets more awesomeness than ever because it's based upon CW Samurai.

[m149307]

ok, and if I go the fear route (the Takahshi looks interesting) is there a level that fear effects become ineffective (like a lot of monsters have immunity to fear effects or something)

[Karnith]

ok, and if I go the fear route (the Takahshi looks interesting) is there a level that fear effects become ineffective (like a lot of monsters have immunity to fear effects or something)
Depending on your (DM's) interpretation of how immunity to mind-affecting interacts with Intimidate tactics, Mind Blank effects will wreck the whole Intimidate shtick - so, level 15 at the latest.

At all levels, of course, expect to not have much traction with fear effects against undead, plants, and mindless creatures.

[Vhaidara]

Yes, but I would advise dipping a few levels in a casting class to get Cause Fear and Scare on your spell list (Dread Necromancer 3 works), then 4 levels of Dread Witch. Dread Witch 4 gives you immunity to immunity to fear, as well as +8 untyped to Intimidate.

[Karnith]

Yes, but I would advise dipping a few levels in a casting class to get Cause Fear and Scare on your spell list (Dread Necromancer 3 works), then 4 levels of Dread Witch. Dread Witch 4 gives you immunity to immunity to fear, as well as +8 untyped to Intimidate.
Dread Witch isn't very synergistic with Samurai stuff beyond the Intimidate bonus, though, which you really don't need because the save DC is already insane on its own. It's not like you're suddenly going to switch focus to become a fear-based caster late in your career (not without defeating the purpose of the exercise, anyway).

[Vhaidara]

Dread Witch isn't very synergistic with Samurai stuff beyond the Intimidate bonus, though, which you really don't need because the save DC is already insane on its own. It's not like you're suddenly going to switch focus to become a fear-based caster late in your career (not without defeating the purpose of the exercise, anyway).

Yes, but ignoring Fear Immunity is a really big deal for an Intimidate build.

[AMFV]

Yes, but ignoring Fear Immunity is a really big deal for an Intimidate build.

But they don't ignore fear immunity in a blanket way...They only allow spells to ignore fear immunity. And he's not using spells to cause fear, but class abilities.

[Karnith]

Yes, but ignoring Fear Immunity is a really big deal for an Intimidate build.
Greater Master of Terror only works for fear spells, meaning that a Samurai won't get any benefit from it unless he's casting spells. Per Heroes of Horror, p. 99:

Beginning at 4th level, the increased difficulty of all save DCs against all spells you cast with the feat descriptor increases from +1 to +2. In addition, your fear spells are now so potent that they can even affect individuals normally immune to fear, such as paladins, although the subject still gains a saving throw to resist the spell's effect.
(Emphasis mine)

The Horrific Aura touch attack ignores immunity to fear, so a Samurai could use that, but it's completely separate from Intimidate shenanigans.

[infomatic]

Sure you can make it viable. Not optimal, but viable. Basically you want extra sources of bonus damage (Incarnum, sneak attack, Disciple of Dispater, whatever) and hopefully keep your actual Samurai levels low.

Here's an excerpt from an old class guide I did on the WotC boards.


Three DM rulings that can make your Samurai better:

Basically, the Samurai needs all the help it can get, because it’s very difficult to get any synergy out of the class. Of the following, only No. 1 qualifies as a true house rule; Nos. 2 and 3 are merely 3.0 carryovers that haven’t been updated and so should be legit by 3.5 rules. But some D.M.s may have problems, so it’s best to ask.

1. Alternate Daisho. There’s little flavor reason not to allow, for example, a Dwarven Samurai to replace Katana/Wakazashi with Twin Battleaxes (for Clangeddin) or Waraxe/Warhammer. (You’d waste the EWP, but you might be able to replace that feat with something like Weapon Focus, or a limited TWF Versatility that works only with Daisho weapons, or something). But all of these can be mechanically superior to a traditional daisho.
a. Twin Battleaxes would allow you to go with Oversized TWF/Power Attack.
b. WarAxe/Warhammer opens up the Anvil of Thunder Feat, which gives you new options.
2. Allow heavy weapons from 3.0 Forgotten Realms rules. These used weapon-size rules that were changed in 3.5, but it seems that a Golden Wakazashi would be treated as a one-handed weapon, making it eligible for Power Attack. You’d still need EWP (and maybe OTWF) for this. Thanks to Khazra Reborn for this idea.
3. Use the Oriental Adventures rules for Dwarves (Samurai becomes a favored class as well as fighter) and Wakazashi (deals slashing, not piercing damage). The latter is especially valuable because it lets you take Flay Foe (Champions of Ruin) to gain extra damage with both your weapons.





This is a few years old, so you'd want to stick in stuff like Imperious Command and Never Outnumbered

Azurin Samurai 20
1. Daisho Proficiency, Shape Soulmeld (Bluesteel Bracers, +2 Init), Nymph’s Kiss
2. 2 swords as 1
3. Kiai Smite, Sapphire Smite
4.
5. Quick Draw (Daisho)
6. Staredown, Bonus Essentia
7.
8. Improved Initiative
9. Shape Soulmeld (Brass Mane or Fearsome Mask)
10. Mass Staredown
11. Improved 2 swords as 1
12. Flay Foe
13. ---
14. Improved Staredown
15. Soulsight
16. Greater 2 swords as 1
17.
18. Shape Soulmeld (Bloodwar Gauntlets, +1 to hit)
19. ---
20. Frightful presence




Dwarven Fighter1/Ranger1/Samurai11/Cleric1 (War,Metal)/DiscipleofDispater6
WF Battleaxe*, WF Warhammer*, TWF*, ITWF*, Improved Initiative*, Quick Draw* Power Attack*, Improved Sunder*, Combat Expertise, Anvil of Thunder, Disciple of Darkness, Divine Might, Favored Power Attack, extra turning, Shock Trooper
BAB 19, Saves 17/8/10

So much flavor you’ll get an MSG headache. Heavily Armed/Armored Dwarf that packs a real punch with OTWF+Power Attack (against Favored enemies, his PA ratio is 2:1 even with one-handed weapons), Divine Might and Greater Iron Hews. And if he hits with both axe and hammer, he could daze opponent. I chose Battleaxe instead of WarAxe so as not to be too cheesy (very few dwarven deities use WarAxe as favored weapon).



[/spoiler]

[toapat]

Greater Master of Terror only works for fear spells, meaning that a Samurai won't get any benefit from it unless he's casting spells. Per Heroes of Horror, p. 99:

(Emphasis mine)

The Horrific Aura touch attack ignores immunity to fear, so a Samurai could use that, but it's completely separate from Intimidate shenanigans.

the crappy part about that ability is that Immunity to fear is only a class feature, not a racial feature. Immunity to Mind Effecting is way more common and shuts down all fears anyway.

[Vogonjeltz]

1 Feat:

Sword of the Arcane Order

I'm not clear on how that makes them better melee combatants.

[toapat]

I'm not clear on how that makes them better melee combatants.

if a ranger needs to become superior at melee, they just prep the spells that let wizard do that that are not Tenser's Transformation

[Thiyr]

They could go the TWF route, but why would they want to? They have no good source of bonus damage, delayed access to TWF feats, and no other mechanical abilities synergizing with TWF (Kiai Smite is only usable once per round, and has crappy uses/day), so just using a katana two-handed is generally going to mechanically be better.

If you can get them a means of pouncing, i could see succeeding at a lower-op table doing the twf bit with a little bit of PrC help. two levels of ronin and a level of exotic weapon master for Uncanny Blow, take power attack and shock trooper, and you're gonna be fine. sure, your AC will go to pot, but you're still gonna make someone very unhappy with their day. Granted, the delay on later TWF feats will suck, but you get it eventually, and I get the feeling the third one is where they start getting less useful anyway. sam11/ron2/EWM1/whatever you feel like 6 could work out fairly well like that, and you still have some resources open for fear shenanigans.

[jiriku]

I'm not clear on how that makes them better melee combatants.

There are many lower-level sorcerer/wizard spells that improve combat effectiveness. Some of them are very, very good. Frequently they are cast as swift actions, so a ranger with this feat can even cast them during combat without sacrificing the ability to move/attack. Ranger has this option. Samurai doesn't.

[AMFV]

Also... this (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=3809).

[Vogonjeltz]

if a ranger needs to become superior at melee, they just prep the spells that let wizard do that that are not Tenser's Transformation

My question wasn't specific enough? What spells are those? (Remember, only up to 4th level)

[AMFV]

My question wasn't specific enough? What spells are those? (Remember, only up to 4th level)

Mirror Image for one... Haste... Expeditious Retreat... Alter Self... Polymorph.... There are a lot more but those are some good options.

[Karnith]

If you can get them a means of pouncing, i could see succeeding at a lower-op table doing the twf bit with a little bit of PrC help. two levels of ronin and a level of exotic weapon master for Uncanny Blow, take power attack and shock trooper, and you're gonna be fine. sure, your AC will go to pot, but you're still gonna make someone very unhappy with their day. Granted, the delay on later TWF feats will suck, but you get it eventually, and I get the feeling the third one is where they start getting less useful anyway. sam11/ron2/EWM1/whatever you feel like 6 could work out fairly well like that, and you still have some resources open for fear shenanigans.
That seems like a pretty marginal improvement over just two-handing the katana, given that you're going to be investing in your wakizashi and won't benefit from Power Attack with it.

Mirror Image for one... Haste... Expeditious Retreat... Alter Self... Polymorph.... There are a lot more but those are some good options.
Wraithstrike, the Bite of the Were-X line, and Ferocity of the Sanguine Rage are some other good ones for melee, in addition to the spells that are actually on the Ranger list (Lion's Charge, Rhino's Rush, and so on).

[atemu1234]

Giving it one bonus feat every two levels from the fighter bonus feat list for the first ten levels makes it surprisingly playable.

[Thiyr]

That seems like a pretty marginal improvement over just two-handing the katana, especially given that you're going to be spending gold to enchant your wakizashi and don't benefit from Power Attack with it.

Psh. Wakizashi. Why use that when you can use another bastard sword! "But the samurai's two weapon fighting only works if you're using bastard sword and short sword!" And? Get yourself a Sunsword/Sun Blade (depending on available funds, DM generosity regarding the Sun Sword's unbonded state, and DM willingness to backprice the ability to wield a bastard sword as a shortsword to the +1 it seems to be priced at on the Sun Blade)! All the bastard sword! Plus, then you can use one of your free levels for another one in EWM, taking Twin EW Fighting to further reduce attack roll penalties.

At that point, you're getting 3x BAB to damage and two bonus attacks, one at highest, and one at first iterative, with all attacks taking a -1 penalty and your AC going through the floor (and a +2 to hit, so functional +1 compared to standing there). And each of your attacks could be argued to be getting 1.5x str to each weapon as well, due to Uncanny Blow (though that's arguable). (Bonus silly reading/going to add this to rules dysfunction thread if it isn't there already, Twin EW Fighting looks like it reduces -all- penalties to your attack rolls from TWF to a flat -1 when you're two weapon fighting that way. Greater TWF giving you a bonus at a mere -1? not bad)

What's that? Still not a big enough damage boost? Well, do you have two feats open? Of course you do! Take Neraph Charge and Craven! Suddenly that d6 of sneak dice from the first level of ronin matters! Even if you only hit with your first two iteratives/offhand hits, it's gonna sting. Not, like, Übercharger levels of pain, but at 20, assuming all your levels are full BAB classes that's gonna be 80 damage a swing, + STR (or 1.5x if your DM lets you read it that way), plus any dice. a 320+ damage opener is nothing to sneeze at: Enough to kill any CR 15 enemy or your average CR 19 enemy in one round, and enough to leave the average CR20 uncomfortably low on health. That's assuming the last two iterative attacks don't connect, or that there's no other sources of damage coming in. You're sitting at half that if you were just two-handing (plus or minus a bit, you're getting more from STR but not getting the benefit of multiple hits)