Repeating crossbows confuse me.

[Captain KB]

Hey, I just have some more stupid questions for all those smarter than I.
So in my current game I decided to use a heavy repeater (I got the exotic feat for it) while my friend decided to use a standard crossbow. We both use rapid shot and rapid reload, and ive noticed that our weapons attack in a matter that is virtually identical (except my range is a little longer and after every 5 shots I have to blow an entire round reloading). Currently we are both firing two shots per round. With all that being said i have several questions for you guys.

(1) is one of us playing incorrectly?

(2) how do these two feats (rapid-shot and rapid-reload) effect a repeater and a standard crossbow? Any differences?

(3)with these feats what is the diffrtence between a repeater and a standard?

(4)without these feats what is the diffetence?

Thanks ahead of time guys and gals, any and all input is appreciated.

[Flashy]

1) Since your friend is using a light crossbow (shorter range increment) he's definitely playing correctly. Rapid reload drops the reload time for a crossbow by one category, which means a light crossbow reloads as a free action. You however shouldn't have to spend a full round reloading your repeater. Rapid reload means you should be reloading it as a move action. Your friend should also definitely be rolling a smaller damage die than you (d8 rather than d10), unless you're a size category smaller than him.

2) Rapid shot is much harder to use with a normal crossbow than it is with a repeater. You have to take rapid reload to use rapid shot on a normal crossbow, and even then it only works on the light version since you still have to spend a move action to reload a heavy crossbow even with the feat.

3) In your specific case you're trading a move action every five rounds for a slightly larger damage die and an additional 40 feet of range increment. You've had to spend three feats to his two though, so whether its worth it or not is sort of up to you.

4) Huge. A repeater without any feats (I'm ignoring the exotic weapon proficiency) can fire without reloading for five rounds. You can use your full BAB, you can almost always move and fire and you don't have to waste either a full round or a move action on reloading the stupid thing.

[Garagos]

When you say Standard Crossbow, are you referring to a light or heavy crossbow?

Also, I'm not sure why you took Rapid Reload for your repeater since the feat doesn't mention anywhere in it that it benefits those that use repeaters. I'd retrain that unless you have houseruled in some terms for your situation or there is errata I'm unfamiliar with.

[Flashy]

the feat doesn't mention anywhere in it that it benefits those that use repeaters.

This is a great point I had totally not noticed. If your GM is making you reload as a full round action you should definitely retrain the feat since it's doing nothing for you.

[Regissoma]

Retrain Rapid Reload especially if you get Quick Loading a +1 enhancement that gives you an effective clip of 100 bolts and you can chose what bolts are being used between each one. Takes a move or full round can't remember which to reload the extra dimensional space on the crossbow. Also think of adding a Gnome Sight to your crossbow if you are actually able to take advantage of your range, because ignoring the first 3 range increments penatly wise is fun. And the usual DM I play with allows me to enchant the stock of the crossbow since I can use it to club someone seperately, but all otherwise add on a bayonet from complete scoundrel and enjoy never using but for the enhancement bonuses on it like eager or warning. Also a tip few people I've seen hardly use, enchant your ammuntion a few good ones are binding to say no to teleporters, and lucky for those rerolls.

Edit: Heck you can retrain that EWP to get a great crossbow instead if you can afford Quick Loading(+1) and Auto Loading(10k flat) and you got yourself an automated machine gun based on the number of attacks you can do. Or to get another feat while you use a heavy crossbow.

[Ferronach]

Rapid re-load does not specify that it works for repeaters as they sort of have it built in as a lever for 4 reloads.
However, I would argue that as the full round action of the repeater is essentially the same as that of a heavy crossbow (from the perspective of action economy) that Rapid Reload should work the same for a repeater as for a heavy crossbow.
That being said, the advantage of a heavy repeater is that you can use up to 5 attacks in one round without taking the rapid reload feat. unfortunately you need a full round after that to reload.

My advice if to get your hands on 5 returning bolts.

Before GITP goes nuts about how magical ammunition breaks on impact etc. and how returning only applies to thrown weapons hear me out.
This would have to be discussed with your DM as a homebrew.
Talk to him/her about how the repeater does not really do much different to a regular x-bow.
Explain how you want it to be more "repeating" as opposed to a x-bow with an expanded magazine.

Get your DM to let you have 5 returning bolts that return at the begining of your next turn. This means that AoO will not be easy for you (if you even manage to get one).
If you are able to, convince the DM to let you put the "returning" property on your crossbow so that any bolt you fire returns to it. This will allow you to use different ammunition as opposed to plain old +1 bolts.
If you do this, you could always incorporate a 25% chance that the bolt breaks on impact to make it more realistic and closer to core rules.

[Captain KB]

Thanks for all the responses fellas, it's been a tremendous help.



That being said, the advantage of a heavy repeater is that you can use up to 5 attacks in one round without taking the rapid reload feat. unfortunately you need a full round after that to reload.
wait, so you're telling me I can fire all 5 shots in one round and not just 2!?!?
And I'll definitely see if my DM will consider the returning enchantment, though its still pretty early and we haven't even touched enchantments yet.

[Segev]

wait, so you're telling me I can fire all 5 shots in one round and not just 2!?!?
And I'll definitely see if my DM will consider the returning enchantment, though its still pretty early and we haven't even touched enchantments yet.

If you have the attacks/round to do so, yes. It doesn't give you extra attacks/round by itself.

[Gildedragon]

note for the returning enhancement there is precedent: raptor arrows
the price for returning unbreaking ammo can be sort of grokked from there

[Ferronach]

note for the returning enhancement there is precedent: raptor arrows
the price for returning unbreaking ammo can be sort of grokked from there

Forgot about those!
Depends on how the DM feels about relics n such though....