Epic Spellcasting: An Essay in Resurrection

[atemu1234]

A level 30 Cleric in one of my campaigns with epic spellcasting wants to make a resurrection spell that breaks the normal rules (it can pull someone back to the world against their will). As DM, should I let him (this is an evil campaign, in case anyone's asking).

[jiriku]

Of course you should. Why wouldn't you?

[Inevitability]

You already allowed epic spellcasting. Something like this should be the least broken thing to expect.

[atemu1234]

You already allowed epic spellcasting. Something like this should be the least broken thing to expect.

I was less hoping to argue the validity of the feat as much as the validity of breaking a fundamental rule in D&D: No one may be resurrected against their will.

[Rubik]

I was less hoping to argue the validity of the feat as much as the validity of breaking a fundamental rule in D&D: No one may be resurrected against their will.Spells "break the rules" all the time. That's what they do. Epic spells even more so.

And anyway, it's easy to bring back someone who would normally not want to. Wait until their petitioner is asleep. Then they count as "willing" for the purposes of spells and other effects. So the epic spell doesn't have the "scry and wait" issue, that's all.

[Jack_Simth]

Spells "break the rules" all the time. That's what they do. Epic spells even more so.

And anyway, it's easy to bring back someone who would normally not want to. Wait until their petitioner is asleep. Then they count as "willing" for the purposes of spells and other effects. So the epic spell doesn't have the "scry and wait" issue, that's all.
Non-native outsiders (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#outsiderType) don't sleep. It's part of their type.

[Rubik]

Non-native outsiders (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#outsiderType) don't sleep. It's part of their type.And outsiders are native to their own plane.

[atemu1234]

And outsiders are native to their own plane.

That doesn't give them the native subtype; the native subtype is for things "native" to the prime material.

[Rubik]

That doesn't give them the native subtype; the native subtype is for things "native" to the prime material.Then smack it down with a sap.

You know, "unconscious creatures count as willing" has some really creepy connotations.

[atemu1234]

You know, "unconscious creatures count as willing" has some really creepy connotations.

...I feel dirty.

[elonin]

When can someone who is dead be "asleep thus willing"? There aren't any rules (AW) regarding lowered saves vs spells when one is asleep.

[toapat]

there really are 2 types of Native subtype, the general, typical one refferenced in the rules, and the more accurate one, which is the subtype that determines immunity to the banishment spell.

also, forcible resurrection is itself not atypical in DnD, its a DR1 Salient Divine ability.

[Rubik]

When can someone who is dead be "asleep thus willing"? There aren't any rules (AW) regarding lowered saves vs spells when one is asleep.SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#targetOrTargets)
"Declaring yourself as a willing target is something that can be done at any time (even if you’re flat-footed or it isn’t your turn). Unconscious creatures are automatically considered willing, but a character who is conscious but immobile or helpless (such as one who is bound, cowering, grappling, paralyzed, pinned, or stunned) is not automatically willing."

[Jack_Simth]

When can someone who is dead be "asleep thus willing"? There aren't any rules (AW) regarding lowered saves vs spells when one is asleep.

It's part of the Targets (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#targetorTargets) definition in the magic overview:
Some spells restrict you to willing targets only. Declaring yourself as a willing target is something that can be done at any time (even if you’re flat-footed or it isn’t your turn). Unconscious creatures are automatically considered willing, but a character who is conscious but immobile or helpless (such as one who is bound, cowering, grappling, paralyzed, pinned, or stunned) is not automatically willing.

Note, however, that being willing is not the same thing as Voluntarily Giving up a Saving Throw (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#savingThrow):
A creature can voluntarily forego a saving throw and willingly accept a spell’s result. Even a character with a special resistance to magic can suppress this quality.

So if you cast Enlarge Person on a sleeping creature, the creature still gets the Fort Save. For Teleport, however, the critter is considered willing.

[elonin]

It's part of the Targets (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#targetorTargets) definition in the magic overview:

Note, however, that being willing is not the same thing as Voluntarily Giving up a Saving Throw (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#savingThrow):

So if you cast Enlarge Person on a sleeping creature, the creature still gets the Fort Save. For Teleport, however, the critter is considered willing.

That is a fair point but the quote you made also gave my position some strength as you noted that this isn't the same as voluntarily giving up a saving throw. I'm also unsure how much that sleeping targets are considered willing affects the dead. Is it a part of DnD cosmology that souls of the dead are considered sleeping?

Also, can we agree here that Epic does not necessarily mean DR 0+?

[Jack_Simth]

That is a fair point but the quote you made also gave my position some strength as you noted that this isn't the same as voluntarily giving up a saving throw. I'm also unsure how much that sleeping targets are considered willing affects the dead. Is it a part of DnD cosmology that souls of the dead are considered sleeping?No. They're explicitly Outsiders (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineMinions.htm#petitioners), of the non-Native variety, which means that they in fact don't actually sleep. I was responding to "There aren't any rules (AW) regarding lowered saves vs spells when one is asleep."

Sorry if you got confused by my not dropping the parts of your post to which I was not responding.


Also, can we agree here that Epic does not necessarily mean DR 0+?Why would epic, of itself, give you damage resistance (or do you mean divine rank)? I mean, sure, there's ways to leverage Epic Spellcasting into Divine Ranks....



As to how to get the Epic spell to work?

Forsee seed to find the soul, Transport seed to get it to you, Compel to make it willing, and then Life to bring it back. Life seed sets the duration (so Instant effect), Compel sets the save. So it's a Conjouration(Healing)[Mind-affecting] [Compulsion][Teleportation] effect.

[Rubik]

As to how to get the Epic spell to work?

Forsee seed to find the soul, Transport seed to get it to you, Compel to make it willing, and then Life to bring it back. Life seed sets the duration (so Instant effect), Compel sets the save. So it's a Conjouration(Healing)[Mind-affecting] [Compulsion][Teleportation] effect.Unfortunately, petitioners are A.) impossible to remove from their home plane, and B.) are immune to [mind-affecting] effects.

Just knock 'em unconscious (making them willing) and bring 'em back to life.

[elonin]

Pardon me for my part in the confusion. When I used "DR" in this context I meant divine ranks. My comment about epic not necessarily having divine ranks was meant for an earlier post by a different person entirely and I should have stated their name or quoted their text.

I didn't know that the dead become not native outsiders. Which also puts other posts into context. It's embarrassing that just about the first time I have a in topic reason to converse with one of my forum hero's and manage to put my foot straight in my mouth.

[Jack_Simth]

Unfortunately, petitioners are A.) impossible to remove from their home plane, and B.) are immune to [mind-affecting] effects.

Just knock 'em unconscious (making them willing) and bring 'em back to life.
Ah, so Forsee, Energy, Transport, and Life? Forsee to find, Energy to Blast, Transport to get the energy to the target, and Life to Res?

[Urpriest]

Leaving aside the whole "unconscious is willing" thing (if only because dead really ought to include unconscious, if it were an actual condition)...

You need some means of compelling the dead individual/their soul/their petitioner to agree with you. Since most of those things are immune to mind-affecting, you need to go a different route.

Incorporeal undead are generally thought of as the souls of the dead they originate from. They can be created with the Animate Dead seed, and fall under your Animate Dead control pool. The easiest ones to create are Shadows.

So use the Animate Dead seed to raise the soul as a Shadow and command it to consent to resurrection, the Life seed to do the resurrection, and some ad-hoc DC modifier to make it so fast that the control from Animate Dead doesn't have time to wear off. That seems to be consistent with evil cleric modus operandi, now doesn't it? :smallwink:

[atemu1234]

Leaving aside the whole "unconscious is willing" thing (if only because dead really ought to include unconscious, if it were an actual condition)...

You need some means of compelling the dead individual/their soul/their petitioner to agree with you. Since most of those things are immune to mind-affecting, you need to go a different route.

Incorporeal undead are generally thought of as the souls of the dead they originate from. They can be created with the Animate Dead seed, and fall under your Animate Dead control pool. The easiest ones to create are Shadows.

So use the Animate Dead seed to raise the soul as a Shadow and command it to consent to resurrection, the Life seed to do the resurrection, and some ad-hoc DC modifier to make it so fast that the control from Animate Dead doesn't have time to wear off. That seems to be consistent with evil cleric modus operandi, now doesn't it? :smallwink:

He was thinking of it more as dragging the soul kicking and screaming into their old bodies.
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This is a kind of creepy player.

[TypoNinja]

He was thinking of it more as dragging the soul kicking and screaming into their old bodies.


Sure, why not? Epic magic is specifically called out as being impressive and on a scale so powerful even the gods fear it.

Getting a way to unambiguously define your target could get interesting, but that's probably a fairly minor consideration if hes got access to epic magic already.

It even comes with a built in limit on abuse. If you start stealing a deities petitioners out from under him, against their will, said deity is going to notice. At one or two stolen souls he might decide its not worth his time, at three you've established a trend and steps need to be taken. Take a particularly valuable soul and the deity might come back to reclaim it in person. Other deities are going to object based on principle. A god of death will notice resurrection magic on this scale as something diametrically opposed to him, and of a power level to actually warrant his attention.

[Sith_Happens]

Just knock 'em unconscious (making them willing) and bring 'em back to life.

The soul/petitioner is not the target of the spell (its body is) and therefore the willing-targets section does not apply. Instead, you need to hit it with Trait Removal to remove its Mental Immunity and then make it into wanting to return using the compulsion of your choice.

Therefore, the epic spell in question should use Forsee (to find the soul), Reveal (to establish line of effect to it), Transform (to remove its Mental Immunity), Compel (to make it willing to return), and finally Life (to bring the creature back to life).