How would you feel as a player/Is this fair?

[madtinker]

First off, if you are INWRanger, Manwhoisthisman, or curf06, this thread is off-limits.

Now, down to business.

I'm running a PbP game on these forums that has been running since 2011. It's low level (lvl 4-6), and core + srd only, with few exceptions. We have had a Rogue/Ranger (dead), Rogue (dead), Monk, Cleric, and Battle Sorcerer. One of the deaths was because the player requested a different character; the other was because the player didn't know a good chance to retreat when he saw it.

So far it's been mostly build up to get to the main enemy: a revitalized dwarven empire.

In the near future we'll transition from assassinations and fights with gangsters to taking on dwarven-made warforged with Tome of Battle class levels. Up to this point warforged have not existed. The dwarves have been engineering political machinations to get access to adamantium deposits and the Soul Forge where they can create adamantine-bodied warforged.

I am hoping that when I first present the warforged crusaders they will come off as alien and nigh-unstoppable.

Has anyone tried anything like this, and how can I make sure it goes well?
If your DM started pulling from sources disallowed to players would you feel slighted?
Any other thoughts relevant to the discussion?

[hymer]

If your DM started pulling from sources disallowed to players would you feel slighted?

No. In an all-Good-PCs campaign, the DM should be using plenty of evil enemies. In an all-dwarf-PCs campaign he should be using plenty of orcs. I can imagine that someone who wanted to play a ToB character would have that disappointment reawoken, but you're not joining the Dark Side here as far as I can tell.

[Vhaidara]

I am going to say, if you open ToB up, you may want to eventually allow the monk to retrain to unarmed swordsage. Additionally, beware the ability of ToB classes to simply wreck the Monk. Notice how I keep mentioning the Monk? The Sorcerer and the Cleric should be fine. The Monk has my pity.

As far as "alien and unstoppable", you've basically got it down with warforged Crusaders. Primary focus should be on the Healing of Devoted Spirit, Stone Dragon (dwarf made, after all), the rest of Devoted Spirit, then White Raven. For commanders, swap Stone Dragon and White Raven.

[heavyfuel]

Has anyone tried anything like this, and how can I make sure it goes well?
If your DM started pulling from sources disallowed to players would you feel slighted?
Any other thoughts relevant to the discussion?

I'm doing this with my players right now. Soldiers from an unknown land use bizarre combat tactics (ToB) that give them an edge in combat. What I do is give the players the description of the maneuver or stance without being too specific about it. Say someone is using Thicket of Blades, I'll tell them that they're fighting in a very punishing stance, and that any movement will result in an AoO. But if some guy is using Wolf Pack Tactics, I won't tell them their getting half their levels in damage, just that their focusing on flanking, and this is allowing them more damage.

Not really. As a DM, I don't allow for Tier 1 or 2 classes. They can break the game in a way I just don't feel like dealing with, and have had DMs do the same. But that doesn't mean you can't have an Evil Wizard as the BBEG, or a Druid that's been terrorizing the countryside or some like that. In my mentioned campaign, the ToB classes are an artifice I'm using to give the players a sense of mystery. Sure, they don't know about ToB, but still.

One in particular. Because they don't have access to the class, making thee enemies much more powerful than them, will make them feel cheated. I'm fine not being allowed to play a Wizard, but if the DM pulls a Batman God on me, I'm not gonna like it, because there's no way I'll stand a chance. Adjust the encounters based on this. They can be stronger, but not overbearingly so.

[madtinker]

Actually, the monk is holding his own pretty well.

Good to hear confirmation that this isn't too harsh. If they get enough exposure to the dwarves I'll let them take ToB classes, but I think the monk player takes it as a matter of pride to stay monk. And I'll keep in mind the power differential so I don't completely overpower them.

That said, I appreciate the advice on using ToB; I've never used any of it before.

[Vhaidara]

Actually, the monk is holding his own pretty well.

I'm taking this more as a statement about your cleric and battle sorcerer than about the monk :smalltongue:

[Oko and Qailee]

I don't consider it unfair. But I would allow retraining to new sources and I would allow future characters use of the sources.

You can keep the warforged restricted, bc plot.

[awa]

in my opinion if you keep the tob stuff to the warforged it should be fine its not different then a golems magic resistance some monsters just have powers pcs don't. If you give it to the dwarves which i see much more as a player race it feels alot more iffy unless you gave every one race specific advantages.

Personally i would not have a problem for either way provided it made sense in setting and did not feel arbitrary.

[nedz]

I'm taking this more as a statement about your cleric and battle sorcerer than about the monk :smalltongue:

Well possibly — though Monks, being MAD, do benefit from a good Buffing — which with two casters on his team should be happening. Monks are rated low because of their standalone class features, but if supported by casters they can shine. This could be a case of the casters lending their power to the Monk.

As to the OP
I think this should be fine since it's plot driven — provided the Monk player didn't want to play a Swordsage or something. One idea is to open the weirding way up to the PCs, at some point in the game.

[Urpriest]

I'd probably be more comfortable with it if you had said something in the beginning like "in general the sources are limited to X, but I'll occasionally draw on other sources for monsters", but you should still be fine. There is usually at least some expectation that DMs can draw from broad sources for foes.

[madtinker]

Good feedback all.


I'm taking this more as a statement about your cleric and battle sorcerer than about the monk :smalltongue:

We have a winner. But the other players are playing what they want, and I believe they're having a good time, so I'm not worried about their relative power levels. That may change if the cleric survives a few more levels or if the battle sorcerer starts reading optimization posts.


in my opinion if you keep the tob stuff to the warforged it should be fine its not different then a golems magic resistance some monsters just have powers pcs don't. If you give it to the dwarves which i see much more as a player race it feels alot more iffy unless you gave every one race specific advantages.

Personally i would not have a problem for either way provided it made sense in setting and did not feel arbitrary.

I was wondering about this too. Would letting dwarves take ToB classes give them a foreign, exotic feel, or would it make the deck just that much more stacked against the characters?

[Vhaidara]

I was wondering about this too. Would letting dwarves take ToB classes give them a foreign, exotic feel, or would it make the deck just that much more stacked against the characters?

At this level, you should be okay, but be careful of some of the better damage dealing maneuvers. They can one shot a sorcerer pretty easily, and will probably two shot the monk and the cleric.

[Malphite]

I actually think this is rather fair since you have made ToB out to be some exotic, foreign concept. Hell you could say that the Dwarves were the ones who invented the concept of the ToB or at least the Warblade and Crusader, I would delegate Swordsage to Desert Elves but that's just me :). I also have to say Madtinker you have an awesome concept for an adventure I don't see people using dwarves as the bad guys usually and that makes the game feel even more unique to me good job sir I tip my hat to you.

[awa]

I was wondering about this too. Would letting dwarves take ToB classes give them a foreign, exotic feel, or would it make the deck just that much more stacked against the characters?

I see two possible problems with this first you would need to emphasis the foreignness just giving them the warblade or crusader class likely wont do that the default dwarven warblade does not seem wildly different then the default dwarven fighter the fact that he hits harder in a mechanically different way does not change that becuase the fluff is largely similar players often wont even notice requirements like standing on the ground. part of this problem is the default dwarf is not very alien in any regard. In my opinion giving them exotic weapons and armor will go a lot farther to making them feel exotic then changing there class.

Second giving them the same techniques as the war-forged just takes away from the war-forged by making them less unique.

Personally the best way to make a group seem foreign is not how they fight but what they do. D&d is already a kitchen sink of fighting styles and weapons so a really weird culture will go a lot farther and have a bigger impact the the difference between a war blade and a fighter.

[madtinker]

I see two possible problems with this first you would need to emphasis the foreignness just giving them the warblade or crusader class likely wont do that the default dwarven warblade does not seem wildly different then the default dwarven fighter the fact that he hits harder in a mechanically different way does not change that becuase the fluff is largely similar players often wont even notice requirements like standing on the ground. part of this problem is the default dwarf is not very alien in any regard. In my opinion giving them exotic weapons and armor will go a lot farther to making them feel exotic then changing there class.

Second giving them the same techniques as the war-forged just takes away from the war-forged by making them less unique.

Personally the best way to make a group seem foreign is not how they fight but what they do. D&d is already a kitchen sink of fighting styles and weapons so a really weird culture will go a lot farther and have a bigger impact the the difference between a war blade and a fighter.

Good points. I hadn't considered that giving the dwarves crusader would make the warforged crusaders less special.

[Killer Angel]

If your DM started pulling from sources disallowed to players would you feel slighted?


It depends.
In your specific case, no.
In other ones, yes (when casters NPC use spells that at the beginning of the campaign were prohibited to PC because "it's too strong". Happened to me).