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NEO|Phyte
2007-02-28, 10:04 PM
'Twould seem that THQ (makers of Warhammer 40k: Dawn of War) now have the rights to create an MMO in the 40k universe.

An article regarding this can be found here (http://uk.gamespot.com/news/6166560.html).

heretic
2007-02-28, 10:09 PM
*drools*

Yes. I must have it...

Any release date set?

ilovefire
2007-02-28, 10:13 PM
It looked good when I first heard about it.

A year later (now), it seems like a WoW ripoff, right down to the races and the 'factions'.

Empire, High Elves, and Dwarves, verses Chaos, Dark Elves, and Greenskins.

When I first saw it, I hoped for Skaven, Tomb Kings, Vampires, Bretons (both knightly and peasent), the Empire, some dogs of war, dwarves, beastmen, cultists, high elves, wood elves, dark elves...

and now it's so much less.

NEO|Phyte
2007-02-28, 10:16 PM
It looked good when I first heard about it.

A year later (now), it seems like a WoW ripoff, right down to the races and the 'factions'.

Empire, High Elves, and Dwarves, verses Chaos, Dark Elves, and Greenskins.

When I first saw it, I hoped for Skaven, Tomb Kings, Vampires, Bretons (both knightly and peasent), the Empire, some dogs of war, dwarves, beastmen, cultists, high elves, wood elves, dark elves...

and now it's so much less.
Psst. Thats Warhammer Online (http://www.warhammeronline.com/english/home/index.php), an MMO in the Warhammer universe.

This is a Warhammer 40k MMO.

The Orange Zergling
2007-02-28, 10:17 PM
It looked good when I first heard about it.

A year later (now), it seems like a WoW ripoff, right down to the races and the 'factions'.

Empire, High Elves, and Dwarves, verses Chaos, Dark Elves, and Greenskins.

When I first saw it, I hoped for Skaven, Tomb Kings, Vampires, Bretons (both knightly and peasent), the Empire, some dogs of war, dwarves, beastmen, cultists, high elves, wood elves, dark elves...

and now it's so much less.

Err... that's a Warhammer Fantasy MMO, the subject is a Warhammer 40,000 MMO.

Simu'd by the Neophyte.

Vespe Ratavo
2007-02-28, 10:19 PM
It looked good when I first heard about it.

A year later (now), it seems like a WoW ripoff, right down to the races and the 'factions'.

Empire, High Elves, and Dwarves, verses Chaos, Dark Elves, and Greenskins.

When I first saw it, I hoped for Skaven, Tomb Kings, Vampires, Bretons (both knightly and peasent), the Empire, some dogs of war, dwarves, beastmen, cultists, high elves, wood elves, dark elves...

and now it's so much less.

Er....you're thinking of the FANTASY one. Lemme make you a lil chart.

WARHAMMER=FANTASY
WARHAMMER 40K= SCIFI.
Ok? *beats ilovefire with chart.*

Anyway....*camps out at Best Buy, holding shuriken cannon*
Mine....Vespe Ratavo shall be an Eldar! BUAHAHHAH!

EDIT: DOUBLE-SIMUED!

Beleriphon
2007-02-28, 10:19 PM
I just want to log in on the first day and see who many Space Marines there are.

NEO|Phyte
2007-02-28, 10:25 PM
Also, this image was posted on the forum I found this article through, hopefully it isn't a sign of things to come:
http://img72.imageshack.us/img72/7752/lulzhammer40kcr0.jpg

J_Muller
2007-02-28, 10:26 PM
I don't play the tabletop game, but the universe is intriuging. Though, I don't see how they're going to balance the races/classes--it would seem that Space Marines would simply destroy everyone else.

blackout
2007-02-28, 10:44 PM
LOLZ, TAU R T3H PWNERS! W3 W1ll PWN U N00BZ!...OMG, TAU AR3 N01 C0M1NG 0U1 1I11 EXP PACK! HAX!

Ahem...

Beleriphon
2007-03-01, 12:03 AM
I don't play the tabletop game, but the universe is intriuging. Though, I don't see how they're going to balance the races/classes--it would seem that Space Marines would simply destroy everyone else.

From a lore stand point totally true. In single combat a Space Marine should be able to mash any normal human flat, even single combat against an Ork is completely even. The only thing that can fight an Ork or Marine in single combat are the Eldar aspect warriors that specialize in melee or some of the high level Imperial commisars and warlords.

From a table top stand point, I hate getting beat by my buddy's Imperial Guard armies. Stupid weight of numbers.

All told though, I wouldn't mind playing a Tau or Kroot. Now if they made the MMO play more like an FPS it could be very interesting.

J_Muller
2007-03-01, 12:28 AM
From a lore stand point totally true. In single combat a Space Marine should be able to mash any normal human flat, even single combat against an Ork is completely even. The only thing that can fight an Ork or Marine in single combat are the Eldar aspect warriors that specialize in melee or some of the high level Imperial commisars and warlords.

Well, yeah, that's what I'm saying. Unless they deviate wildly from the lore, anyone who picks Space Marines as their race/class will have a massive advantage over anyone else. Unless, I don't know, if you pick IG you're actually a squad of ten or so? That would be weird, but fun if implemented correctly.

Crazy Owl
2007-03-01, 02:32 AM
There is a god and his name is the Emperor!

Its going to be ages till it comes out though seeing as its only just been announced and its going to be hard to pull of. I think a first or maybe third person shooter that worked like Battlefield games would have worked well.

Beleriphon
2007-03-01, 02:35 AM
There is a god and his name is the Emperor!

Its going to be ages till it comes out though seeing as its only just been announced and its going to be hard to pull of. I think a first or maybe third person shooter that worked like Battlefield games would have worked well.

It occurs to me that you could run the PvP battles like a tabletop game, in that a character of a certain level with a certain race/class combo takes up more points in the battle. So if you have big PvP battle a space marine could cost twice as many points to join as an IG rifleman unit. This could be further complicated by equipment allotments. That could be interesting.

Destro_Yersul
2007-03-01, 04:18 AM
Well, yeah, that's what I'm saying. Unless they deviate wildly from the lore, anyone who picks Space Marines as their race/class will have a massive advantage over anyone else. Unless, I don't know, if you pick IG you're actually a squad of ten or so? That would be weird, but fun if implemented correctly.

I suspect it would be offset with other things. They'd likely be very slow, for one thing. Bolter would probably have a lower fire rate than, say, a lasgun too. Even Space Marines die if you throw enough at them. Be neat if they had a scaling money system as well. Like, a powerfist for a Marine costs twice as muchas for IG, or something like that.

blackout
2007-03-01, 09:57 AM
I personally hope it's an MMOFPS, like Planetside, only better. And the currency could be like in Dawn of War: Requisition, automatically earned by killing enemies. Spend Requisition to get better wargear, and more ammunition.

Penguinizer
2007-03-01, 10:04 AM
Too bad that Nids wont probably be playable. Gaunt players would just be weak compared to other players. And playing a fex would be somewhat over powered. Maybe playable, say a progressing system. IE. Gaunt at first couple of levels, then to hormo, then to warrior, ravener, maybe gargoyle, carnifex, maybe capping out at tyrant or maybe hierophant.

With ability to change things with biomorph points or the like.

Nevermore
2007-03-01, 10:23 AM
ehh... Chaos Marines would realisticly destroy the game... However, i can see them simply using Inquisitors as the Human template

SmartAlec
2007-03-01, 12:15 PM
It looked good when I first heard about it.

A year later (now), it seems like a WoW ripoff, right down to the races and the 'factions'.

Empire, High Elves, and Dwarves, verses Chaos, Dark Elves, and Greenskins.

When I first saw it, I hoped for Skaven, Tomb Kings, Vampires, Bretons (both knightly and peasent), the Empire, some dogs of war, dwarves, beastmen, cultists, high elves, wood elves, dark elves...

and now it's so much less.

They've got to leave some material for the expansion packs, right?
Looking at it, it looks like WAR will be quite different from WoW - WAR seems to be designed around PvP a lot more - to the point where that is the main focus of the game and the 'quests' and such are just filler, whereas WoW is very much a PvE game and the PvP element is a side-benefit.

On the 40K game - who knows what'll happen? Maybe we'll end up with something like Star Wars: Galaxies, with more of an emphasis on Imperial society and worlds as described in the novels. I'm having trouble seeing how they could make an authentic MMO based around actual armies, like in 40K, as opposed to nations. Wouldn't you be part of a squad, and be forced to travel the galaxy wherever you were sent? Not sure how they'll deal with that aspect of things.

darkzucchini
2007-03-01, 12:47 PM
Unless, I don't know, if you pick IG you're actually a squad of ten or so? That would be weird, but fun if implemented correctly.

It would be awsome to have a squad based MMO.

blackout
2007-03-01, 03:35 PM
Or, squads could be like parties, or something.

Murongo
2007-03-01, 03:36 PM
So you don't pick "space marine" or "chaos space marine" you pick "human" or "chaos", you buy power armor and you use experience to buy the feat/skill you need to use it. Problem solved. Marine chapters will flesh themselves out in the form of clans.

Dragor
2007-03-01, 03:48 PM
I have a feeling that a 40k MMO will be a sort of Planetside-esque game. If so, it'll be awesome.

Erloas
2007-03-01, 04:12 PM
It looked good when I first heard about it.

A year later (now), it seems like a WoW ripoff, right down to the races and the 'factions'.

Empire, High Elves, and Dwarves, verses Chaos, Dark Elves, and Greenskins.

When I first saw it, I hoped for Skaven, Tomb Kings, Vampires, Bretons (both knightly and peasent), the Empire, some dogs of war, dwarves, beastmen, cultists, high elves, wood elves, dark elves...

and now it's so much less.

Not to derail the 40k thread, but this is the sort of statement that just doesn't sit right with me. So WAR is "ripping off WoW" for using something that has been in the Warhammer IP for almost 25 years (longer then Blizzard has even been around as a company), which also happens to be pretty much a staple of the fantasy genre for as long as it has existed. How can WAR being ripping off WoW when elves, dwarfs, humans and orcs have been in almost every MMO to date, including Mythics earlier title DAOC (except for orcs) which WoW has taken a lot of ideas from. The "factions" thing has been around a lot longer then WoW, it was one of the biggest things WoW borrowed from DAOC in fact. If they were "ripping off WoW" wouldn't they have taken the more unique WoW races such as the Tauren? Considering the blood elves and night elves are also nothing at all like the high elves or the dark elves, they really only have the name elves in common. There is nothing like Chaos in WoW, and Warhammer IP has undead but WAR didn't choose to use them, which you think they would have if they were trying to copy WoW. WAR also has DoW, beastmen, cultists, skaven and vampires, they just aren't playable. And while Warhammer fans really like skaven, they are all but unheard of outside of warhammer and not something most players would even appreciate.

I mean you may as well claim that Toyota "stole" the idea of a truck from Dodge, its got just about as much credibility.



As for 40k, meh, I'm not really that interested. Maybe if it takes 5 years to come out and I'm doing playing WAR then I'll give it a try. I've always been more of a fan of WHFB then WH40K anyway. Though it would be nice to see a bigger diversification of MMOs beyond just fantasy. Personally I won't get existed about 40k until there is some information about it, since right now it is little more then a theory.

Nevermore
2007-03-01, 04:25 PM
So you don't pick "space marine" or "chaos space marine" you pick "human" or "chaos", you buy power armor and you use experience to buy the feat/skill you need to use it. Problem solved. Marine chapters will flesh themselves out in the form of clans.

However, that is NOT how Space Marines work at all. It would bastardize the entire core fluff of what Space Marines are (*shudders at the memory of Fire Warrior*). Especially the Chaos Marines. The Legion made Chaos Marines are thousands of years old. The loyalist marines are usually about a century old. Becomming a Battle brother takes a veryu long time.

ilovefire
2007-03-01, 04:31 PM
... In responce to my above post.

I was half-asleep, read 'Warhammer' and MMO in the same topic, made assumptions.

... This is why I try not to post when i'm half asleep, I end up looking like an *******.

ARGH. Sorry...

Bryn
2007-03-01, 04:43 PM
Space Marines are chosen as young children on feral worlds, not from already skilled Imperial Guardsmen or whatever. After that they have to spend a long and brutal period of training as a neophyte, possibly serving as a scout, as the various implants are added at different points during their life. You can't become a Space Marine unless you are a young boy, and even then only the strongest, most violent warrriors of a feral world are chosen for the years-long process of initiation (a process it is not guaranteed you'll survive, at that).

http://uk.games-workshop.com/spacemarines/initiation/1/ is a good article on the creation of Space Marines, with the age-related stuff on page 4. The first implants must be introduced at ages 10-12 - not the sort of age somebody would have as a fully-fledge MMO character. The final implant is introduced around 16-18.

Therefore, being a Space Marine has to be something you are from the beginning, and not an option for advancement for Imperial characters.

That said, I'd rather play an Inquisitor.

Nevermore
2007-03-02, 01:31 AM
Thanks Z-Axis. I agree, Inquisition is the best humie option.

Destro_Yersul
2007-03-02, 02:18 AM
The Inquisition is extremely cool. If I did that, I'd be a Radical Inquisitor. Nothing like using Chaos to smite Chaos... :amused:

Nevermore
2007-03-02, 02:32 AM
I would play a Radical member of the Ordo Xenos... one obsessed with capturing alien technology, and then disecting it. Doubt it would be allowed though.

For those that don't know, there are 3 different Inquisitorial Ordos, each with its own purpose:

Ordo Hereticus: Heretics and Psykers
Ordo Malleus: Chaos
Ordo Xenos: Aliens

Destro_Yersul
2007-03-02, 02:45 AM
Well, I like Chaos more than I like Aliens. Though Marines with pulse rifles... *shudders* Oh, and each Ordo also has a military wing. Two are Astartes, One is a technicality. Just in case anyone was curious.

Ordo Hereticus: Sisters of Battle
Ordo Malleus: Grey Knights
Ordo Xenos: Deathwatch

Dragor
2007-03-02, 03:21 PM
I'd love to play as a Sister of Battle. The Acts of Faith would fit in with MMO special skills very nicely.

Vespe Ratavo
2007-03-03, 07:00 PM
While it's true that being a Space Marine/Sister/Chaos Marine would be severely unbalancing, they might make it a "prestige class," and you have to work your way up from a grunt to Space Marine scout, then a regular marine, and possibly higher.

McDeath
2007-03-03, 09:06 PM
Once an Inquisitor gets to the equivalent of epic levels, can they use EXTERMINATUS? That would be the greatest Limit Break EVER.

This has potential, and could be something like Planetside. The squad idea sounds good - once one dies, you switch to the next. Space Marines have 5 in a squad, Guard maybe 12. Getting levels would allow you to give your squad extra armour, special weapons, etc. Once you get high in level, you can use awesome one-person "squads" like Inquisitors or the Emperor's Champion.
Note: 32-strong Gaunt squads? Haha.

Artemician
2007-03-04, 01:21 AM
They'll probably take the Game Balance approach and nerf the Adeptus Astartes big time. In the RTS, Karskin Shocktroopers (Humans with limited enhancements) can somehow shoot a lasgun much better than a Space Marine (Battle-hardened, bio-enhanced, triplelunged powerarmoured Superhumans) can fire a bolter.

If they can do that, then they can make a Space Marine the same as a Guardsman. Trust me.

starwoof
2007-03-04, 01:30 AM
What they could do is have players not be allowed to play marines.

What I want to play is an ork. Because I play orks, and yoo'z is all weedy 'umies. Waaagh!

blackout
2007-03-04, 01:39 AM
Pff. Orks can kiss the barrel of my pulse rifle before I blow their heads off.

TheOtherMC
2007-03-04, 02:19 PM
How would they tackle vehicles though? I mean perosnaly, I wouldn't mind a little joyride in a hammerhead gunship......

"Railguns make heads go pop!"

TheOtherMC
2007-03-04, 02:20 PM
*AH crap.....double post*

......
......
......


FOR THE GREATER GOOD!

Penguinizer
2007-03-04, 02:31 PM
The squad idea would be fun. But how would they handle advancement for nids. Maybe something along the lines of being given points with which you can change things about the creature. This affects its stats and how many are in a squad. Sort of Spore like system. This would be great since you could create unique creatures.

Neon Knight
2007-03-04, 02:37 PM
They'll probably take the Game Balance approach and nerf the Adeptus Astartes big time. In the RTS, Karskin Shocktroopers (Humans with limited enhancements) can somehow shoot a lasgun much better than a Space Marine (Battle-hardened, bio-enhanced, triplelunged powerarmoured Superhumans) can fire a bolter.

If they can do that, then they can make a Space Marine the same as a Guardsman. Trust me.

AHEM! First off, its STORMTROOPER. Not shocktrooper, STORMtrooper. The distinction is fine. SHOCKtroopers are cannonfodder who win by weight of numbers, like normal guardsmen. Imperial STORMtroopers are assault infantry that can be equated to special forces; equipped with Carapiece armor and powerful Hellguns. In addition to minor enhancements, they also receive the best training available, along with some excellent gear choices.

And Kasrkin are the very best of the Imperial Stormtroopers, drawn from Cadia which is under near constant siege by the forces of Chaos.

However, it is a bit silly that even Kasrkin are better than Space Marines, but we must sacrifice fluff if we expect a playable game to be produced. If Space Marines were as powerful as the fluff describes them, they'd win every game of DoW hands down.

On a side rant, DoW names all Imperial Stormtroopers as Kasrkin, which annoys me to no end.

Dant
2007-03-04, 03:06 PM
To be fair, the fluff in the RTS has all of the Guard involved in the story as coming from Cadia, which would explain the whole Kasrkin thing. If you really don't like it, I'd recommend getting Dawn of Steel.
Plus the Cadians themselves are called Shocktroopers, so you could argue that Kasrkin could be labled such.

As for the MMO, I think that if properly done, a squad approach could be insanely awesome. Sadly, is probably never going to happen. It'll probably be more based off of Inquisitor, which is not a bad thing. Or maybe Necromunda.

Murongo
2007-03-04, 03:19 PM
What I meant earlier was not that you become a space marine through leveling, what I meant is that you start as a human but can later wear powered armor.

Obviously the ability to wear power armor doesn't make you buffer, tougher and better at aiming. An Inquisitorial StormTrooper sarge can take powered armor from the armory- he still has the stats of a stormtrooper sarge. Its not ridiculous to have a regular human in power armor, you can do it in the game.

Obviously theres no way to avoid a clan/guild system, its too popular in MMOs, my point was that you can flesh out "chapters" by making a clan which only accepts people in power armor.

Implants and such would also be something you could buy (you would need black carapace implants to wear power armor). And just to show I'm not ignorant of 40k fluff I add this counter-argument: some highly skilled white shields ARE inducted into the marines.

All that said, I'd rather be a member of an inquisitorial retinue. That'd be awesome.

Drascin
2007-03-04, 03:56 PM
However, it is a bit silly that even Kasrkin are better than Space Marines, but we must sacrifice fluff if we expect a playable game to be produced. If Space Marines were as powerful as the fluff describes them, they'd win every game of DoW hands down.If marines were as powerful as the fluff describes them, they would win every game of EVERYTHING. Including Fantasy, where they are not playing, but they are OBVIOUSLY so awesome the other armies would explode just by hearing of them ¬¬. According to some fluff, a single marine has a 50/50 chance against a freaking carnifex (you know, beings genetically designed to be killing machines, instead of being a powering up of one of the most useless combat forms EVER, that is, the human) by himself, and let's not get on Exterminators. Those guys, apparently, are direct descendants of Chuck Norris.

Seriously, I am tired of all the "Marines are awesome" stories. Yeah, we get it, they're good, they're damn badass, but so are a lot of the others and we hear nothing of them. I kinda liked marines at first, but all the fawning has made me sick of them. Now the mere sight of a marine army gives me a queasy feeling.

[/rant off]

Sorry about that. I kinda needed to get that out. Anyway, back to the topic.

Yeah, a 40k MMO can be all sorts of awesome, but it's going to be hard to organize it. Who knows, maybe they will work with some "alliances": empire on one side, some other armies that more or less have a chance to work together (Eldar and Tau, for example) on other, and Chaos and Orks on other.

Of course, the setting would be best served with a "free-for-all" where everyone is ****ing everyone, but that would be mighty hard to balance.

My character choice, if I could say anything? Tau pathfinder. We are the ghosts that signal the arrival of the apocalypse ^^. Complete with devilfish, if possible. I'm bad at skirmishes, but recon and skilled driving are my specialty in all kinds of Battlefield ^^.

Neon Knight
2007-03-04, 04:31 PM
If marines were as powerful as the fluff describes them, they would win every game of EVERYTHING. Including Fantasy, where they are not playing, but they are OBVIOUSLY so awesome the other armies would explode just by hearing of them ¬¬. According to some fluff, a single marine has a 50/50 chance against a freaking carnifex (you know, beings genetically designed to be killing machines, instead of being a powering up of one of the most useless combat forms EVER, that is, the human) by himself, and let's not get on Exterminators. Those guys, apparently, are direct descendants of Chuck Norris.

Seriously, I am tired of all the "Marines are awesome" stories. Yeah, we get it, they're good, they're damn badass, but so are a lot of the others and we hear nothing of them. I kinda liked marines at first, but all the fawning has made me sick of them. Now the mere sight of a marine army gives me a queasy feeling.

[/rant off]

Sorry about that. I kinda needed to get that out. Anyway, back to the topic.

Yeah, a 40k MMO can be all sorts of awesome, but it's going to be hard to organize it. Who knows, maybe they will work with some "alliances": empire on one side, some other armies that more or less have a chance to work together (Eldar and Tau, for example) on other, and Chaos and Orks on other.

Of course, the setting would be best served with a "free-for-all" where everyone is ****ing everyone, but that would be mighty hard to balance.

My character choice, if I could say anything? Tau pathfinder. We are the ghosts that signal the arrival of the apocalypse ^^. Complete with devilfish, if possible. I'm bad at skirmishes, but recon and skilled driving are my specialty in all kinds of Battlefield ^^.

Hey, me too! Though if you think exterminators are bad, the Imperial Palace guards (which are supposedly clones of the Emperor Himself*) are even worse.

*Note: I may be wrong about this. I remember reading this somewhere, but cannot locate where I read it.

I actually have an idea how the weaker races like the guard could work. You could be an officer and command Guardsmen and or Stormtroopers. It could work like the typical fantasy MMORPG's pet class.

Beleriphon
2007-03-04, 07:58 PM
Hey, me too! Though if you think exterminators are bad, the Imperial Palace guards (which are supposedly clones of the Emperor Himself*) are even worse.


Don't you go knock the Tactical Dreadnought Armour! Its some of the only stuff still around from before Horus Heresy, hell before Terra was cut off from the rest of the galaxy by Warp storms.

As for playability I'm expect humans, eldar, tau, and orks to make it in as races. I cold see gretchin as well, but only because it would be funny. I also expect space marines to be in the game, but not playable, because no 40K based game is complete with space marines.

For playable space marines though it might be fun if they could be unlocked through in game actions. So if you do certain, very difficult, things in game you can unlock the option to create a space marine character.

blackout
2007-03-04, 10:17 PM
That could work. You'd have to do some serious grinding though, but it could work.

Beleriphon
2007-03-05, 12:49 AM
That could work. You'd have to do some serious grinding though, but it could work.

For a long time the Star Wars MMO did the same thing for Jedi. You had to master some two or three dozen different things, on a half dozen characters. Then SOE changed it because it was dumb for a Star Wars game.

At any rate I question how well an MMO would for a game that relies largely on ranged combat. Still, could be pretty fun.

Everto
2007-03-05, 06:43 AM
Because Orks are the only cool race I'll be focusing on them.
Pets --> Grotz and Squigs, a must have, different gretchin give different bonuses; ammo runt, oiler grot, orderly grot, attack squig, squig hound, etc. With a maximum of 3 in total.

Rapid Strength increase: Orks get stronger faster.

Choppas: decreases enemy Armor Save one way or another

Cheaper weapons because Orks are a little bit bad at aiming.

You get a steady flow of income in the form of teeth which can be looted from most corpses.

If you disagree check out the Ork Codex.

blackout
2007-03-05, 07:15 AM
Niiiiiiiice. :)

Destro_Yersul
2007-03-05, 08:41 AM
Interestingly enough, the reason Tactical Dreadnought Armour is so damn strong is because it was originally made to withstand being in a plasma core. As for being tired of Marines, check out Gaunt's Ghosts. Regular guardsmen, emphasis on being sneaky, and really damn badass to boot.

Now then, I have changed my preffered class: I want to be the Titan driver:smallbiggrin:

Penguinizer
2007-03-05, 12:55 PM
Heck, I want to be the titan XD

Bryn
2007-03-05, 01:14 PM
Titans? You people think too small. I'll have the Emperor Class Battleship, please!

Illiterate Scribe
2007-03-05, 02:03 PM
Titans? You people think too small. I'll have the Emperor Class Battleship, please!

Nothing like a good old C'tan by the name of the VOID DRAGON for power escalation. (Trust me. Its name has to be capitalised like that.

Bryn
2007-03-05, 02:35 PM
What exciting fun that would be! You can spend all your time asleep on Mars.

Seriously, though, I'd much rather play an Inquisitor than anything else. At all.

Jacob_Gallagher
2007-03-05, 03:35 PM
I'd like to play as a Vostroyan. Not only do they look great visually, they're a really nasty surprise for anyone who doesn't know what they are- basically, every Guard infantryman is better in melee, more accurate, and a BOLTER shell (high explosive, rocket-propelled, .75 caliber shell) has a 50/50 chance of bouncing right off their enhanced armor. Although those upgrades make them way too expensive to be worth anything in the real game- I just take 'em with Sharpshooters and Carapace Armor and screw the melee stuff :)

Bryn
2007-03-05, 04:24 PM
^ That would indeed be great. If I couldn't play an Inquisitor, I'd certainly be a Vostroyan too. They probably won't make it though - it will be Cadians. :smallfrown:

McDeath
2007-03-05, 04:26 PM
Myabe they will have Necrons as playable characters, once you have unlocked them...I wonder if I can drive the Monolith?

Murongo
2007-03-05, 04:38 PM
The new Penny Arcade addresses the alliance system.

Hehe. So true.

Wehrkind
2007-03-05, 11:01 PM
I totally would be down with playing a Sister of Battle (who don't have a black carapace, but can wear power armor, just not as well as a Marine). Slap the insignia of the Sisters of Unrequited Love (giant grinning Pucca face) on my armor, and I am ready to light up some heretics!

Nuns with guns = win.

J_Muller
2007-03-05, 11:08 PM
The new Penny Arcade addresses the alliance system.

Hehe. So true.

I'm ignorant of 40K--who are the "floating brains"?

Though, even not being a 40K player, from looking at some stuff on the internet I'd want to snag myself a Cadian Kasrkin Stormtrooper as my character.

Though I wonder how they'll handle heavy weapons and vehicles...

Haruspex
2007-03-05, 11:26 PM
Inquisitor for me as well, though if I recall correctly the Ordo Malleus fought daemons, not Chaos in general.

The main draw would be that Inquisitors generally have a clue, compared to your average guardsman. They did in the fluff anyway. A lot of what the players know would be beyond most denizens of the WH40K world. Chaos? Warp? Whazzat?

Wehrkind
2007-03-06, 06:02 AM
I think the armored brain would be a tyranid synapse critter of some sort, probably the psyker one I can never remember.

I think the coolest way to do levels and such for various races would be to make each character a squad leader after a certain "earn your stripes" set of levels, at which point as you leveled up you could buy new squad mates and get new gear. Then you could assign which die in what order, with yourself being last. Make them expensive or annoying to replace, and you have a pretty good reason to live. Plus for more horde based races you could make the extra bodies cheaper to balance out less stats. That would just be awesome, and save the flavor of the game. Eventually working up to be a Warboss with nobs and a maddoc would be sweet, and bring along your buddy the Big Mek with his mek boyz and trukk? Too cool.

Edit: (Also cool because I play MMO's with my wife, and hate having to do some pick up group crap because other guildies don'thave jobs and are in Time Sink Caverns doing a 400 man raid. Being able to build your own raid group of NPCs, even if mostly red shirts, would be really nice.)

Leon
2007-03-06, 06:44 AM
You get a steady flow of income in the form of teeth which can be looted from most corpses.


Or bashed out of a living Orks skull


Floating brains are Zoanthropes - Platforms of Hive Mind Powers

Everto
2007-03-06, 07:05 AM
Or bashed out of a living Orks skull


Floating brains are Zoanthropes - Platforms of Hive Mind Powers

Nice idea, you should be able to duel other Ork players(or in fact anyone in your faction) and the winner gets 32 teeth.

Bryn
2007-03-06, 12:08 PM
The eldar would be good for an MMO - lots of options for advancement with all the Aspects, etc. They might be a bit tricky to balance, though.

I like the sound of the squad idea.

McDeath
2007-03-06, 04:19 PM
That squad idea is very interesting. And since they would be annoying to replace - maybe you have to leave the battlefield and go back to a HQ - playrs would have an interest in keeping their soldiers alive. Unless they were Tyranids. Unfortunately, Necrons probably won't be in. Sigh. Too hard to balance, and the fluff would make levelling tricky.

Although it could unlockable instead of persistent character...

Neon Knight
2007-03-06, 04:46 PM
Vostroyan. I didn't even dare to dream that I'd every get to be one of these guys. For those who don't know, Vostroyan can be equated to Space Cossacks. Their appearance is based off of 18th Century Cossacks.

More information about Vostroyans can be found here. (http://uk.games-workshop.com/imperialguard/vostroyans/1/)

Back on topic. Tyranids and Necrons are probably out, as numerous people have said before me, but I wonder; will you be able to play Humans other than Imperials? It could be cool to play as a Human Tau Auxiliary or as one of the Lost and the Damned. Heck, I'd love to play a member of the Blood Pact.

Murongo
2007-03-06, 05:21 PM
Vostroyan. I didn't even dare to dream that I'd every get to be one of these guys. For those who don't know, Vostroyan can be equated to Space Cossacks. Their appearance is based off of 18th Century Cossacks.

More information about Vostroyans can be found here. (http://uk.games-workshop.com/imperialguard/vostroyans/1/)

Back on topic. Tyranids and Necrons are probably out, as numerous people have said before me, but I wonder; will you be able to play Humans other than Imperials? It could be cool to play as a Human Tau Auxiliary or as one of the Lost and the Damned. Heck, I'd love to play a member of the Blood Pact.

I don't think you could have 40k with a WoWesque diplomacy system (you belong to one side forever and always and you fight the other side(s).) I think it would have to work more like EQ/Vanguard where each race has initial diplomacy ratings with each faction but you can be allies with anyone (and likewise enemies with everyone).

Otherwise you couldn't get cool things like Tau Auxiliary, or any of the inquisitors who do heretical things like side with aliens.

It'd be pretty cool if you didn't pick "imperial" or "chaos" but rather you chose "human" and what you do in-game decides which faction you end up on.

Speculation and ranting are the best part of awaiting a game.

Eldpollard
2007-03-06, 05:44 PM
Why has noone mentioned the wonders of being a dark eldar in this yet? Just the thought of taking slaves when attacking the enemy. but i agree that an fps of it would be cool and just riding around in raiders very quickly and then blowing up. Being an incubi would be cool. But i suppose one would be stuck with being a warrior or possibly wytch.

But to reiterate SLAVES!! expecially if they're PCs who are then trapped in the midst of dark eldar.

Bryn
2007-03-06, 05:55 PM
Alliances could be rather complicated.
http://img125.imageshack.us/img125/8893/40kalliancesjx1.png
B = same army, no problems
T = trusted allies
D = distrustful allies
X = no alliance possible
Table taken from here (http://uk.games-workshop.com/warhammer40000/combat-patrol/assets/40k40mins2.pdf)

Murongo
2007-03-06, 07:26 PM
They forget to mention that while IG and SoB and Marines are "T" to demon hunters, that the demon hunters have to kill the IG and SoB and mindwash the Marines into thinking they never saw the demon hunters as soon as the battle is over. The best kept secrets are kept by shooting anybody who knows in the back of the head!

crazedloon
2007-03-06, 08:32 PM
They forget to mention that while IG and SoB and Marines are "T" to demon hunters, that the demon hunters have to kill the IG and SoB and mindwash the Marines into thinking they never saw the demon hunters as soon as the battle is over. The best kept secrets are kept by shooting anybody who knows in the back of the head!

Ha do you really think that Demon hunters (yes they are powerful) could do anything to the marines. The Inquisition can’t do jack**** to the marines (and they are the most powerful force besides a full chapter of marines in the Imperium). If they could half the chapters would be gone. The Inquisition has wanted to wipe the space wolves off the face of the galaxy for centuries.

Now IG they are fodder and most often those who see or interact with daemons are killed unless they are the actual elite units in which case they are spared but sent to "reconditioning" i.e. brain washing

SoB also have a slight Immunity like the marines not nearly as powerful but they can get away with seeing a doing things that normal people cant mainly because they are nuns with guns :smallamused:

Edit: also a big problem with most the ideas of becoming a spacemarine is that realy there is no way to go from being a guardsmen to being a marine. Most marines draw their recruits from thier home worlds which often have a primitive culture and the strongest warriors are drawn from these people (though a cut scene would be awsome of some of the tests they do to you. I cant remeber which novel it was in but there was one where a bunch of kids were being recruited for Dark Angels and that passed the test but then half paniced when they saw the first kid get impaled by the Apothacary doing some tests. Those that were scared were obviously killed)

Now as far as the people complaining about fluf trust me In reality the marines should be able to do that I will give them that much. However if we were relistic Dark eldar (my favorite race) should be able to dodge bullets and skin a man alive in half a minute not only that but the man would be alive. A farseer (which I havent seen anyone complain about and they are far worse then a space marine as far as powerlevel) can blow your brain up without a problem. The Marines are powerful but when compaierd to some other races they pail in comparison.

Also if you want to see truely pimp humans I wouldnt mind playing a Catachan I would place my bet on the Catachan agains any Marine in a jungle enviroment. (it is sort of like the joke of the Catachan picking a fight with the marine. When the marines askes to take it outside and the Catachan says after you there was not much left of the marine when the trip mine went off.)

Vespe Ratavo
2007-03-06, 08:39 PM
Personally, I think that the fluff alliances will only be enforced in (say) the "roleplaying" servers, and in the non roleplaying servers, your factions can be composed of anything.

crazedloon
2007-03-06, 08:51 PM
Also if you want broken don’t get me started on the Assassins :smallsigh:

AaronH
2007-03-06, 11:15 PM
Ok, I don't know a whole lot about 40K (I just like painting the Minis all right, of course, I find the world to be pretty cool and have read a bit of the fluff)

But for the most part it seems the primary gameplay revolves around 2 systems: The Special Missions and Battles. Now the Special Missions are pretty straightforeward mission objective that appears in most MMOs, but the battles, the battles are where its at for 40K. To that end, I think it would be really cool, if players didn't "control the battles" but were rather a part of them. Basicly. you have your basic "troops" (your Taur Fire Warriors, you Space Marine Tactical Squad, ETC) that will automaticly spawn in combat zones, in most combat zones the armies spawned will be equally matched. Each planet could even have multiple combat zones, and players would vie for control of the planets by elminating enemy forces on the surface. It isn't exactly 40k rules (If I recall correctly) but you could make it so that you need control off certain planets to be able to "attack others" (like the warp lines from MOO3) Each combat zone could have fortifications and facilities (completely destructable of course), and once a combat zone is "secured" a player character could then begin "building" new fortifications (over the ruins of the old) for his own faction. Once a planet is completely secure, it automatically deploys troops into one "combat zone" on a nearby planet. In any combat zone with just NPCs nothing happens, but when a PC or group of PCs enter, it gets interesting.

So, how do players effect things? Simple players are Seargants or Elites or HQs or Fast Attack or Heavy support (depending on rank, position, allegiance or equipment purchased, or whatever in the case of Tryanids) and they can "sway the course of battle" by supplementing Firepower, providing bonuses to NPC troops, Engaging in Clever Tactics, or whatnot. As each combat zone is one, a new combat zone is spawned and the PC's can move along with their troops or reinforce their current position (by building new fortifications and whatnot)

As you grow closer to someones "home base" the defenses become stronger and the battles become more weighted against the invaders, maybe even battle maps become larger and more detailed.

Of course, the big threat to this sort of system comes if one particular faction has too lopsided a playerbase (*glares at space marine players*) in which case they are going to have a clear advantage because they can field more PCs and wind more battles. But, oh well, just some thoughts.

Destro_Yersul
2007-03-07, 12:26 AM
It will definately be tough, no denying it. One way to fix the pitched battle thing is to make the enemies stronger for every PC that takes part. More PC's = more options, but stronger enemies. What say you? I also think it shouldn't be possible to capture an opponents main HQ. If a Faction gets wiped, what happens to the people who play that Faction? Or, if it is possible, to make it impossible to fortify or spawn troops from and it resets to the defending faction with all fortifications in place every so often. like, maybe every 24 hours. Only the Main HQ would reset though, or it would be impossible to get anything done.

Crazy Owl
2007-03-07, 02:34 AM
Alliances could be rather complicated.
http://img125.imageshack.us/img125/8893/40kalliancesjx1.png
B = same army, no problems
T = trusted allies
D = distrustful allies
X = no alliance possible
Table taken from here (http://uk.games-workshop.com/warhammer40000/combat-patrol/assets/40k40mins2.pdf)

Why are Tau distrusted allies with Orks? They hate them, half the lore in the Tau codex seems to be wars with Orks.

Haruspex
2007-03-07, 02:48 AM
That is surprising. However, the Orks are also distrustful allies with half the armies in that chart. It could be a campaign-specific thing.

Wehrkind
2007-03-07, 03:31 AM
It might be reflecting Orks working as mercenaries for various factions, though they tend to turn on them once they get bored.

Wippit Guud
2007-03-07, 03:37 AM
*ahem*


...



...



WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGH!!!


/Wip wants his cybork....

Everto
2007-03-07, 03:46 AM
I am an Ork player and I would gladly fight for tau empire if I got some sweet weapons and wargear in exchange, however after the battle I would melee the crap out of the Tau and steel some more sweet carbine's and stuff.

Bryn
2007-03-07, 10:35 AM
Why are Tau distrusted allies with Orks? They hate them, half the lore in the Tau codex seems to be wars with Orks.

Don't ask me, I didn't make the table.

Another error is that there are differences between the two incarnations of Eldar/Ork alliance. One is D, the other is X. That could, I suppose, represent the Orks trusting the Eldar enough to help them, while the Eldar, who care nothing about the Orks, are free to turn on them at any moment.

Dolash
2007-03-07, 11:28 AM
I'm surprised the Tau and the Eldar wouldn't get along. I mean, so far as I can see the two races have never fought. Maybe that reflects the fact that the two races have also almost never met? Hard to be allies if you live on opposite sides of the galaxy.

Saithis Bladewing
2007-03-07, 11:51 AM
I'm surprised the Tau and the Eldar wouldn't get along. I mean, so far as I can see the two races have never fought. Maybe that reflects the fact that the two races have also almost never met? Hard to be allies if you live on opposite sides of the galaxy.

I think I read somewhere that there was a short conflict between a Tau fleet and a Craftworld, but I'm not 100% on that. Regardless, the two should get along rather well. Though young, the Tau have proven themselves far superior to Humanity in their technological prowess and resistance to the powers of the warp.

Also, orks should be enemies with everyone, up to and including other parts of their own race.

Bryn
2007-03-07, 11:53 AM
Considering Xenology, I would think the Eldar would be happy to work with the Tau... considering how much they've done already.

Crazy Owl
2007-03-07, 12:22 PM
Whats it matter if the Orks are willing to fight with the Tau, I meant that the Tau wouldnt wan't to work with the Orks.

Were-Sandwich
2007-03-07, 02:18 PM
I'lll take Ordo Malleus anyday. Maybe Xenos if they pull it off correctly.

J_Muller
2007-03-07, 06:10 PM
I don't play 40K, so I don't know much, but how are the Guard D with the Chaos Space Marines? Shouldn't they be X, since the CSM are responsible for the near-death of the Emperor?

Bryn
2007-03-07, 06:13 PM
Unless they're traitor guard, or they're from some backwater planet where the Imperium does not have much hold, or they don't realise who the CSMs are. However, you are right - another error in the table, I suppose.

blackout
2007-03-07, 07:23 PM
Well, here's my take on how just about everything could work. Prepare for a wall of text, ladies and gentlemen.

MONIES AND WARGEAR

Each race gets Requisition for money. Each time you kill an enemy, you automatically get requisition. Based on the type, race, and wargear of the enemy you were fighting, you get an appropriate amount of Requisition. You spend this requisition back at your home base to purchase wargear, armor upgrades, ammunition, and so on. For Wargear, you should have access to a large number of ranged and melee weapons. You can only have a certain limit of different weapons equipped at once, though. You only got two hands, human or no. And you need ammo to work your ranged weapons. More realistic. :)

DEATH AND REVIVAL

If you get killed, you don't actually die. You get 'incapacitated.' You need medics to revive incapacitated friendlies. For this purpose, your friends can command a lower-ranked medic NPC to follow you out into a battlefield and heal you, or one of your friends could be said medic. Either way.

COMBAT

Ah, yes. Combat. The neccessity of 40K. The one thing that makes it all worthwhile. There's nothing more exhilarating than charging out into the battlefield, destroying all who oppose you, ripping their spines out and tossing them away laughing, shooting them and letting them drown in their own blood as you trample them, tearing their skulls out of their heads and BEATING THEM TO DEATH WITH THEM! OH, YES! HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!...Ahem... Anyways, I think the combat aspect of things will take on a far more FPS feel. You have your gun. You look down. You see your feet. You look up, and there's a horde of chaos cultists running out you, shouting like the frothing madmen they are. You click. Your gun fires a shot. You click more. Your gun fires more shots. You hold the button down, and, oh, look at that, your shots grow slightly more inaccurate as you continue to fire! And now the enemy is shooting at you! Oh, look, they are now too close to use your gun! Switch to melee weapon! Something like that, Anyways, I believe combat should rely on the weapons one has available, and one's own personal skill. Yes, it should rely almost entirely on one's own personal skill with the weapons they have at their disposal. No real skill-scores for weapons. At all. End of story. You wanna serve your leader well? Go get some training.

EXPERIENCE AND LEVELING UP
Doesn't exist. Every skill, every weapon, every tactic, relies on the personal skills of the people at the controls. :P

SQUADS AND COMMANDERS

Squads are parties of people whom are allies. Squad commanders happen to be people in charge of said squads. There should be certain weapon-damage boosts to people whom are trusted allies/same army as the squad leader. Any army that's not X on the chart posted by our own Z-Axis is a potential squad member. More on this later.

SPACE TRAVEL

Get on transport when it's scheduled to leave. Go to planet that transport goes to. Fight.

CAMPS AND BASES

People will have to secure a region by destroying all hostiles to actually begin fortifying it. Once it's fortified, vehicles and artillery, as well as fire-support platforms, will assist in holding the line against hostiles that enter the region. The more fortified an area is, the more trenches, barricades, artillery positions, gun emplacements, and tanks will be up at the line. As well as minefields. CAN'T forget minefields.

NPC SOLDIERS

In a combat zone, NPC soldiers will be in mass-numbers. Players add to the mayhem. Dropships/drop-pods/APCs will be methods of getting more forces to the battlefield quickly from other regions/orbit. Whichever side begins to run low on reinforcements spawns more in another region, and sends them up to the front. :) Eventually, one side will win and will take the region. Then, they fortify it.

This is my dream game.

Jacob_Gallagher
2007-03-07, 08:53 PM
Sounds good. I'd just NEED to have the ability to raise my own army, or it just wouldn't be 40k to me.

Besides, wouldn't that be a kickass idea for an MMO? Instead of being just a really powerful character; sure, you're powerful, but level up = more troops, not more brawns. It would really make the players have to choose what they use when they get the chance.

Hmm, maybe I should make a 'Assimilate all for the Hive' or 'Defence of Vostroya' sig banner...

TheOtherMC
2007-03-11, 02:19 PM
Can I say it? Really? Noone will hate me for the mental image? Ok then.

Two words: ROUGH RIDERS!

Maldraugedhen
2007-03-11, 03:52 PM
I think just horse mounts for IG would be best for that.

I'm just imagining a Kill Teams style game with 'good' races allying against 'evil/mindless' races... A Tau sniper paired up with an Eldar psychic, a Space Wolf with a gruff demeanor and a chainsword, and maybe a Guard heavy weapons specialist, versus a mix of Chaos, Orks, Traitor Guard, and mebbe some 'nids thrown in for good measure. Awesome...

Bryn
2007-03-11, 03:57 PM
I think just horse mounts for IG would be best for that.

I'm just imagining a Kill Teams style game with 'good' races allying against 'evil/mindless' races... A Tau sniper paired up with an Eldar psychic, a Space Wolf with a gruff demeanor and a chainsword, and maybe a Guard heavy weapons specialist, versus a mix of Chaos, Orks, Traitor Guard, and mebbe some 'nids thrown in for good measure. Awesome...

Sounds cool, although the Space Wolf and the Guard will likely be punished for heresy. Xenos sympathisers!

As for horses... none of these (http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/acatalog/tmrrp14store.jpg) rough (http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/acatalog/tmrrp6store.jpg) riders (http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/acatalog/tmrrp2store.jpg)? :(

To tell the truth, though, if I was playing a Guardsman I wouldn't want a mount. Unless it was a tank.

ufo
2007-03-11, 04:12 PM
I suspect that they stole this from me :smallconfused: . Just kidding, but reminds me of an idea I had some time ago.

http://forums.relicnews.com/showthread.php?t=111862

Perhaps I will buy this - as a Warhammer 40k fan.

Space Commies for the win!

blackout
2007-03-11, 04:36 PM
Does anyone have anything they might like to add to my dream-game?

Dragor
2007-03-11, 05:08 PM
Does anyone have anything they might like to add to my dream-game?

No, because it was everything I was going to type, and then didn't because I thought everyone would laugh at me. :smalltongue:

I'm not even kidding.... it's almost a parallel of mine. You got a crystal ball you keep on accidentally glimpsing into? :smallsmile:

Maldraugedhen
2007-03-12, 10:21 AM
It is a multi-race union for the profit of all, Z-Axis. The IG wouldn't mind allying very much with the Tau--many a border world uses Tau agricultural tech, and as for the Eldar, well, as we were shown fairly clearly in Winter Assault, they don't necessarily need to see them to work with them. Eldar might humor the Tau for an alliance, and the Tau would trust anyone with a brain who say they want to help them. Probably including Chaos. The Space Marines wouldn't like joining up with them, though, that much is true. Maybe inquisitors, or specialists of the Ordo Malleus.

Bryn
2007-03-12, 12:08 PM
The IG wouldn't mind allying very much with the Tau--many a border world uses Tau agricultural tech

I don't deny that some regiments might ally with the Tau, but on the other hand the more devout and zealous regiments might not feel like commiting heresy.
Sorry if I came off as somewhat rude in my previous post. I agree that it would be a rather fun idea.
Pointless argument for agrument's sake

However, the Imperium is extremely intolerant of alien races. Use of alien technology and alliance with aliens is heresy. The Eldar would not hesitate to consign millions of humans to death (I believe this happened in Armageddon, with the Eldar manipulating the Orks to attack the Imperium), the Tau have a long history of violence with the Imperium (the Damocles Gulf crusade comes to mind), the Orks are almost universally hated (such as on Armageddon, or one of any number of wars, battles and crusades) and derided as foes, and they would not hesitate to hurt the rest of the 'party' at any time.
Page 138 of the 40k rulebook gives a lot of information on the Imperium's relations with Xenos.

You are right in that many members of the Imperium would be willing to ally with Xenos, and there are many cases of them doing so. However, they would be committing heresy in doing so.


Eldar might humor the Tau for an alliance,

There's more to it than that, at least if Xenology is to be believed (which it is not necessarily as it is Black Library).
Xenology spoilers
It is not stated, but strongly hinted, that the Eldar created the ethereals using pheromone glands from the Qu'orl. It is thanks to these pheromone glands that the Ethereals are able to control the Tau, and this explains their rapid technological development.

Murongo
2007-03-12, 04:27 PM
I don't deny that some regiments might ally with the Tau, but on the other hand the more devout and zealous regiments might not feel like commiting heresy.
Sorry if I came off as somewhat rude in my previous post. I agree that it would be a rather fun idea.
Pointless argument for agrument's sake

However, the Imperium is extremely intolerant of alien races. Use of alien technology and alliance with aliens is heresy. The Eldar would not hesitate to consign millions of humans to death (I believe this happened in Armageddon, with the Eldar manipulating the Orks to attack the Imperium), the Tau have a long history of violence with the Imperium (the Damocles Gulf crusade comes to mind), the Orks are almost universally hated (such as on Armageddon, or one of any number of wars, battles and crusades) and derided as foes, and they would not hesitate to hurt the rest of the 'party' at any time.
Page 138 of the 40k rulebook gives a lot of information on the Imperium's relations with Xenos.

You are right in that many members of the Imperium would be willing to ally with Xenos, and there are many cases of them doing so. However, they would be committing heresy in doing so.



There's more to it than that, at least if Xenology is to be believed (which it is not necessarily as it is Black Library).
Xenology spoilers
It is not stated, but strongly hinted, that the Eldar created the ethereals using pheromone glands from the Qu'orl. It is thanks to these pheromone glands that the Ethereals are able to control the Tau, and this explains their rapid technological development.

Another theory about Ethereals
If you notice the mark on ethereal's forehead matches the sign of the deceiver, and necron are said to have the best technology in all 40k. The Tau codex constantly hints to a "darkness the Tau will have to face" which could be that the Ethereals got their power to pull the Tau together from the necron.

I could see factions like the ordo xenoss using alien weapons against them in the same exact way that radical ordo malleus inquisitors summon daemons to fight chaos. And theres multiple accounts of Black Templar fighting with the Eldar to defend the black library.

Although races like Orks could never directly ally any Imperial army.

Bryn
2007-03-12, 05:08 PM
Naturally, Radical Inquisitors (the best sort :smallbiggrin:) are exempt from all the xenophobia and everything. Good point about the Eldar... to add a few more cases, the Tanith First (according to Black Library) fought alongside Eldar, and so did a Deathwatch marine IIRC.

Have the Imperium ever allied with Tau?

Jacob_Gallagher
2007-03-12, 05:46 PM
They might, perhaps, not be xenophobic- but that radical Inquisitor is going to have a difficult time procuring supplies or equipment without getting smited by other members of his office- or the Astartes themselves.

Bryn
2007-03-12, 06:04 PM
That's true, but prior to being caught they'll have a chance to do some mischief. Inquisitors are not known for working together a lot of the time, and other, non-Inquisitorial types will not know that a certain Inquisitor is a radical...

By the way, I love that Vostroyan avatar. Who made it?

Jacob_Gallagher
2007-03-12, 08:28 PM
Beleth, about 6 hours ago. Check my sig :smallwink:

J_Muller
2007-03-12, 09:20 PM
Eh. I've never played 40k, but I downloaded a demo of Winter Assault recently to see what it was like.

I have to say, I hope that in the MMO they make the IG feel a bit more effective. I mean, it's the 41st century, and yet when my soldiers fire at the enemy it looks like they're fooling around with laser pointers.

Wehrkind
2007-03-13, 02:02 AM
That defines the Imperial Guard pretty much exactly. Similar to "Flash light and a t-shirt". The Space Marines are what you want if you are looking for future pow. The IG mostly wins with vehicles and heavy weapon teams (in Dark Crusade). The Infantry is decent just for the sheer volume of fire they put down range, but with the exception of the few heavy weapons per platoon, their little lasguns are for tickling. Still, having a 15-25% chance to wound just about any given infantry man (not counting armor saves, which can make that plummet) isn't so bad when you have 50 guys shooting at the same target. Even Space Marines/Sisters of Battle only have a 38% chance to kill a IG fellow per shot with their bolters (which blow through standard IG armor).

Yes, I figured that out this evening (wondering how long it would take my 30 girls to rip appart 3 IG troop choices at minimum strength. Wasn't pretty.)

Everto
2007-03-13, 07:21 AM
CLAN WARS
As in most online games there are clans/guilds and also clan wars, so why not give it the original 40K boardgame feel? You have parties of people and tanks fighting each other on a battlefield in real time. Depending on if the 40K MMO is 1 player with a group of pets or no pets at all you could have massive battles, or normal ones respectively.

Jacob_Gallagher
2007-03-13, 05:28 PM
I have to say, I hope that in the MMO they make the IG feel a bit more effective. I mean, it's the 41st century, and yet when my soldiers fire at the enemy it looks like they're fooling around with laser pointers.In the real game, many players refer to the lasguns as flashlights, and the armor as t-shirts. They suck.

Try the original demo, you get Space Marines and with a little editing the files you can unlock Orks. Both are much more powerful (individually).

Then again, there is the Baneblade...

Oh, lasgun jokes:
Uses for a Lasgun

Warming soup.
When left on, a seat warmer in your Leman Russ.
Disco effects/pyrotechnics.
Cigarette lighter.
Changing T.V. channels.
Selling to get funds for a better weapon.
Throwing at the enemy (may do more damage)
Using for grave marking for IG troops.
Collecting (eventually you might have enough to do some damage)
Paperweight.
Skeet shooting.
A cooking utensil.
Looking slightly menacing.
Strapping onto a Boltgun as a laser sight.
Annoying friends by shining it in their eyes repeatedly
Burning ants
Add a flashlight: Twin-linked

Things you don't wanna hear when you're in the Imperial Guard:
"We're outta ammo?"
"CHARGE!!!"
"Khorne Berserkers good fighters? Us Cadians can handle them!"
"You mean you FORGOT the Leman Russes?"
"Why are the Dark Angels surrounding us?"
"Welcome to the Cata- PRIVATE!!!! THERE'S A WRINKLE IN YOUR BANDANA!!!! IRON IT OUT, THEN GIVE ME 500 LAPS AROUND THE BASE!!"
"Funny, the Ogryns don't smell as bad when dead."
"Hey, a grenade without a pin!"
"You just had to forget the gas for the chimera, didn't you?"
"You know, guys...Chaos isn't SO bad"
"Fix bayonets!"
"Whaddya mean orbital bombardment?"
"We missed our shooting phase?"
"Hey, Sarge, this thing just fell out of the sky, it's all fleshy and squishy, and there are scratching noises inside."
"Hehe, that's a good practical joke, plugging the tank's guns... let's stay really close to it so we can see the looks on their faces!"
"Our regiment has been assigned to fight in the Third Armageddon War? Sounds fun!"
"Sweet! And I get to be one of them? Man, this is so cool! I can't wait! Hey, what are the Last Chancers anyway?"
"Boy, I hope those artillery guys got the right coordinates..."
"Hah! Those Chaos dopes spelled 'surrender' with only one R!"
"I'm your new commanding officer. Now, this is my first command, so go easy on me, okay?"
"See? Lasguns can take anything. Drop it, throw it in the swamp, use it as a club, and it still...uh oh."
"Well, we're low on ammo, our radio's busted, and we've got genestealers coming in on all sides. Let's charge them!"

Uses for an Imperial Guardsman's Bayonet

A dandy can opener
cutting your vegetables
mugging the guys in the camp next to you
prop swords
pantsing your commander
looking like a thug
fighting grots (still may not work)
a reflective surface for signaling
shaving (use whipped cream from rations with it)
quick and easy haircuts
a belt buckle
committing suicide (might work if you try hard enough)
gardening

J_Muller
2007-03-13, 05:45 PM
I know they're not supposed to be powerful, but it just doesn't feel right when they've got these big lasguns in their hands and they're shooting beams of light thinner than their wrist. I'd like it if in the MMO they at least make the IG soldiers feel more effective.

TheOtherMC
2007-03-13, 07:12 PM
I know they're not supposed to be powerful, but it just doesn't feel right when they've got these big lasguns in their hands and they're shooting beams of light thinner than their wrist. I'd like it if in the MMO they at least make the IG soldiers feel more effective.

You want actualy effective weapons? You're using the wrong army man...(TAU!TAU!TAU!)

On a more humorous note: Cervoskulls -Discuss!-

J_Muller
2007-03-13, 07:14 PM
You want actualy effective weapons? You're using the wrong army man...(TAU!TAU!TAU!)


I tried out the Dark Crusade demo as well, so I played as Tau for a bit. They were fun.

Neon Knight
2007-03-13, 07:43 PM
Imperial Stormtroopers get Hellguns, which are a lot more powerful than las-rifles.

Ironically, in the fluff, las-gun shots are described as being able to blow limbs off an unarmored man. Bolter shots usually just reduce you to a fine mist. You gotta wonder, why the heck are the Space Marines carrying such large guns around? Must be compensating for something...

What? Hey, you'd have that kinda problem too if you had as many steroids and surgeries as they've had.

blackout
2007-03-13, 07:48 PM
(TAU!TAU!TAU!)

>:) Damn straight.

Wehrkind
2007-03-13, 08:37 PM
I know they're not supposed to be powerful, but it just doesn't feel right when they've got these big lasguns in their hands and they're shooting beams of light thinner than their wrist. I'd like it if in the MMO they at least make the IG soldiers feel more effective.
Trust me, when you play Dark Crusade and have 30 IG walk into your base in the first 3 minutes and wipe out everything, you start to think they are powerful. The trick is to always be at your troop limit cap, give them grenade launchers, and have a few units together at all times. On defense, putting them in bunkers, tanks, shopping carts, or anything else that is slightly harder than they are is a must.

Destro_Yersul
2007-03-13, 09:57 PM
Imperial Stormtroopers get Hellguns, which are a lot more powerful than las-rifles.

Ironically, in the fluff, las-gun shots are described as being able to blow limbs off an unarmored man. Bolter shots usually just reduce you to a fine mist. You gotta wonder, why the heck are the Space Marines carrying such large guns around? Must be compensating for something...

What? Hey, you'd have that kinda problem too if you had as many steroids and surgeries as they've had.

Yes, Space Marines do have those kinds of problems. That isn't the reason they carry such big guns around though. Bolters are holy instruments of death, able to blow a hole clean through a plasteel bulkhead. Armour is of little use against them, and with the proper training they can be used to gun people down in close quarters. They fire mass-reactive shells as big as a man's head and come standard with a molding grip and DNA sensors. In short, the Marines carry them because they CAN.

Jacob_Gallagher
2007-03-14, 05:59 AM
Hey, Tau can shoot well, but in the real game I usually win by charging him with a unit of Veteran Guardsmen with shotguns. 2 shots, then 2 attacks. Tau just suck in melee.

Now, what I want to do is see how the Plague Zombies would work against them- very cheap for the damage they can take.

Neon Knight
2007-03-14, 03:33 PM
Yes, Space Marines do have those kinds of problems. That isn't the reason they carry such big guns around though. Bolters are holy instruments of death, able to blow a hole clean through a plasteel bulkhead. Armour is of little use against them, and with the proper training they can be used to gun people down in close quarters. They fire mass-reactive shells as big as a man's head and come standard with a molding grip and DNA sensors. In short, the Marines carry them because they CAN.

*Was joking*

Destro_Yersul
2007-03-16, 12:00 AM
Doesn't make "those problems" any less real :smallbiggrin:

TheOtherMC
2007-03-16, 02:17 PM
Hey, Tau can shoot well, but in the real game I usually win by charging him with a unit of Veteran Guardsmen with shotguns. 2 shots, then 2 attacks. Tau just suck in melee.

Now, what I want to do is see how the Plague Zombies would work against them- very cheap for the damage they can take.

I assume you're referring to the tabletop game, in which case, WHAT?! You actually got that close to a firewarrior team or something simmilar?

-------STAT MONKEY TIME!!!--------

Lets think this out. Standard firewarrior squad, fiarly static units. 12 warriors, 2 drones. These warriors happen to have STR 5, AP5, 30" rapid fire weapons.... SO by the time you got set up for an assault you'd be in rapid fire range for oh...lets see....24 shots (26 plus drones) all of which would wound on 2+'s with no armor save......ouch. Then of course the drone's carbines would force a pinning check if they wound (Assuming the flying toasters actually hit something for once...........god they're like orks with astigmatism....) then you have pulse grenades [assaulter loses bonus attacks for charging] to consider.

--------STAT MONKEY END--------\


My point.......I suddenly want to command a couple of drones in MMO combat....:smallbiggrin:

Were-Sandwich
2007-03-16, 03:32 PM
Me and my mates were discussing what a Tony Hawks-40K crossover would be. We decided the Tau would use drones as hoverboards.

blackout
2007-03-16, 07:18 PM
...Never speak of a tony-hawk-40K crossover. Ever. Again. They do not mix well.

Erloas
2007-03-16, 08:56 PM
...Never speak of a tony-hawk-40K crossover. Ever. Again. They do not mix well.

It could have potential... think of Tony Hawk... thing of many people with lots of very big weapons. Now what do you have? A shooting gallery but Tony Hawk instead of ducks and he goes in a U instead of straight back and forth, and instead of a pellet gun you have rocket launchers and bolters and such. Everyone needs something to hone their skills at shooting moving targets.

blackout
2007-03-16, 08:58 PM
...Interesting. But nah. >:) I'd much rather practice by shooting at real targets, in a real battlefield.

Neon Knight
2007-03-16, 09:17 PM
...Interesting. But nah. >:) I'd much rather practice by shooting at real targets, in a real battlefield.

Until you meet a titan. Then popping Tony's head off seems much more appealing.

crazedloon
2007-03-16, 10:00 PM
Until you meet a titan. Then popping Tony's head off seems much more appealing.

not if you are in termy armor (has anyone else read the story of the space wolf getting stomped on and walking away from it :smallbiggrin: )

blackout
2007-03-16, 10:05 PM
Bah. Titans are a myth-*sees Titan*...that's just an overgrown Dreadnought. :)

crazedloon
2007-03-16, 10:59 PM
Bah. Titans are a myth-*sees Titan*...that's just an overgrown Dreadnought. :)

Yah I agree all you need to do is dismember the pilot :smalltongue:

Crazy Owl
2007-03-17, 02:56 AM
Yah I agree all you need to do is dismember the pilot :smalltongue:

Try getting through the force fields first.

Destro_Yersul
2007-03-17, 03:01 AM
Fear my +5 Void Shields of Deflecting! *laughs insanely and fires gatling earthshakers*

YPU
2007-03-17, 04:19 AM
Just imagine the sniper (read camper) possibility’s you would have with a tau sniper drone.

Haruspex
2007-03-17, 04:34 AM
What does the sniper drone do? Some kind of spotter unit I'm guessing (I don't know much about Tau).

TheOtherMC
2007-03-17, 01:14 PM
What does the sniper drone do? Some kind of spotter unit I'm guessing (I don't know much about Tau).

Railrifles......they make heads go *pop* :smallbiggrin:

McDeath
2007-03-19, 04:57 PM
Done properly, this would be made out of awesome, win and Khorne. However, it probably won't be. The sad truth.

Rainspattered
2007-03-22, 08:27 PM
I'd really like to play as an Eldar. I'm sure they'll work out balance, one way or another.

leperkhaun
2007-03-23, 12:45 AM
kinda long

hmmmm. new to the forums read the comic and was..."hey im a fan of 40k so ill jump in".

It would not really be hard to balance the various races. For one i would not expect to see an ordinary Guard soldier as a option. One thing to remember is that "ordinary" troops will most likely not be player characters.

Sure a space marine will tear apart an ordinary guard member, but how will he fair against a sanctioned phsyker, a witch hunter, inquisitors, imperial assassins, magos of the mechanis (sp and name is probably wrong), those lumin electric priest guys, sisters of battle....... All of which are highly dedicated (as much as a marine) and well equiped. As for Guard members maybe throw in Commisoners or elite troops.

Space marines are very powerfull, but there are many other factions that can and have produced people just as powerful.

Alone the same lines chaos just doesnt have its traitor legions. Many many pshykers have proven more than a match for ordinary space marines (squads of em) and it took the best of that chapter to kill them. Or how about demons.

as to the other races, well most can easily field troops that are a match for space marines.

One thing to remember about the fluff that has build 40k, The imperium of man and its troops are the good guys, and 80% of the time the good guys win. Might cost them hundreds of thousand of guard, a company or two of space marines... but they win.

As to how the game will actually work. I could see a skill/level system with a basic "race" option. Lets take the imperium of man for example.

Race options

1) Inquisitor
2) witch hunter
3) commisoner
4) Space marine
5) Imperial assasin

Each race will have skills accosiated with it. For example IMperial assasins. You start out as a generic assasin with your first assesible skills bieng skills common to a killer. Weapon, hand to hand, augmentations, chemical enchaners, explosives.

From there you can branch out (i cant remember the names of the 3 main sects of assasins). Lets say the skills have a max of 10. getting 7 in rifles opens up various options commonly associated with those one shot one kill sinper assasins. Taking chemical enchancers to the same opens up skills associated with those assasines that use that (those hand to hand combat guys).....as you level you gain skill points that allows you to customize your character and slowly progress to one of those much feared imperial assasins.

Space marines could be similar. You start as a novice (one side note. Not all chapters start thier recruits as young as 10. Various chapters often recruit people 16-19, as they wait for those people to prove themselves on the battlefield, the space wolves often recruted teenagers). From there you have basic skills that allow you choose the general space marine, librarian, chaplin, tech marine, assault marine.....

So what would seperate a space marine from "normal" human characters? The difference would be options. Space Marines are set into thier path due to thier training. One example would be librarians. Thier phsykic powers are rather powerfull, but in general only one thing is focused on and trained. Sure Mr. Librarian's fireball is more powerfull than that sanctioned phsyiker, but that phsyker can also create a physical barrier or read people's mind.

So to seperate them a space marine librarian skill tree would allow few options and would make it very hard to have more than one of them, however they would be able to highly develop that one ability. Where as a santioned phsyiker would have many different options to pick from, but none would be as powerfull as that librarians one option.

this skill tree could be expanded to other races. ELdars and thier aspects, wanna be a shoota or a speed freak?, tyrinad evolution, chaos (what god do you want to kill for)....... and all the rest.

Balancing the various races will not be a hard thing to do. What will be hard is to get the feel of 40k. The huge battles and the never ending war. Each race will basically be its own faction.

The imperium of man will never work with the eldar (at least on a sanctioned way as a whole, people like ravenor excluded), chaos wont make an alliance with the orks.

CHaos will work together under a powerful enough leader (say someone with the mark of chaos asended).

Anyway thats my rant

leperkhaun
2007-03-23, 01:07 AM
Ha do you really think that Demon hunters (yes they are powerful) could do anything to the marines. The Inquisition can’t do jack**** to the marines (and they are the most powerful force besides a full chapter of marines in the Imperium). If they could half the chapters would be gone. The Inquisition has wanted to wipe the space wolves off the face of the galaxy for centuries.

Now IG they are fodder and most often those who see or interact with daemons are killed unless they are the actual elite units in which case they are spared but sent to "reconditioning" i.e. brain washing

SoB also have a slight Immunity like the marines not nearly as powerful but they can get away with seeing a doing things that normal people cant mainly because they are nuns with guns :smallamused:

Edit: also a big problem with most the ideas of becoming a spacemarine is that realy there is no way to go from being a guardsmen to being a marine. Most marines draw their recruits from thier home worlds which often have a primitive culture and the strongest warriors are drawn from these people (though a cut scene would be awsome of some of the tests they do to you. I cant remeber which novel it was in but there was one where a bunch of kids were being recruited for Dark Angels and that passed the test but then half paniced when they saw the first kid get impaled by the Apothacary doing some tests. Those that were scared were obviously killed)

Now as far as the people complaining about fluf trust me In reality the marines should be able to do that I will give them that much. However if we were relistic Dark eldar (my favorite race) should be able to dodge bullets and skin a man alive in half a minute not only that but the man would be alive. A farseer (which I havent seen anyone complain about and they are far worse then a space marine as far as powerlevel) can blow your brain up without a problem. The Marines are powerful but when compaierd to some other races they pail in comparison.

Also if you want to see truely pimp humans I wouldnt mind playing a Catachan I would place my bet on the Catachan agains any Marine in a jungle enviroment. (it is sort of like the joke of the Catachan picking a fight with the marine. When the marines askes to take it outside and the Catachan says after you there was not much left of the marine when the trip mine went off.)

hmmm long quote, i think ill learn how to fix that later. As to the "why doesnt the inquisition kill the space wolves (or other chapter)". Politics.

If you are going to take out a chapter of space marines who share genetics with the primarchs (and thus the emperor), who are mythical figures, and represent the the most powerfull (aside from the titan legons) ground soilders the imperium has to offer, who are also dispite there being thousands of chapters, a very small percent of the imperial fighting force WITHOUT 100% proof of that chapter commiting unforgivable heresy, is just asking to be annialated by the combined forces of the imperium (man im good at those run ons).

Space Marines are powerfull as a Chapter. Your single run of the mill Space marine could be and on many many many occasions has been taken out by those "weaK" other humans. Could your ordinary inquisitor take out Ragnar? Not a chance, could said inquisitor take out a blood claw.... sure.

One thing people tend to miss about 40k is the fact that space marines in general do not act individually. They go around in squads and companies. Witch hunters, inquisitors, and they rest (excluding say Sisters of Battle) dont . One on One those specialty humans are a match for a space marine.... throw in 4 of that space marine's battle-brothers in the fray and then not so much.

Check out the fluff, there are many many examples where say tech priest electric priests or a single assasin has walked through 1 or 2 squads of space marines withoug breaking a sweat..... problem was that the 2 other squads were there. The strength of space marines is that 1) they are much more powerfull than ordinary people (witch hunters, inqusitors and the like are NOT ordinary people) 2) they train and fight backing each other up.

leperkhaun
2007-03-23, 01:28 AM
hmmm i really need to read the entire thread before i hit reply.

as to the imprium and others working together. It COULD work on a small scale. specific missions putting two groups together for a specific reason, not because x likes y.

Say chaos is doing a ritual that must be stopped at all costs. The eldar show up. Due to the importance of said mission mr. imperium represenitive is willing to "work" with the eldar to stop the ritual...... now the second the ritual is stopped...its ON like donkey kong.

While i think that specific missions in game that allow for this would be fun, it should not be the norm.

As to how the world would be set up....... I think that like WAR 40k should be a pvp centric game that is waged in a specific solar system. A planet or two for each race as starting areas with relativly small pvp zones. As you progress you have the option of going to different worlds to quest and partisipate in different types of battles.

The imperium want it all for itself, chaos wants it because they just dont like the imperium, the eldar are trying to stop some great disaster, the tau are bringing thier "peace", the orks just found a good fight, the dark eldar see a place to sow suffering and gain riches, the hive mind see a whole lotta genetic material just sitting thier......

Each race would have different goals on the area and like WAR events in one place affect the other, but with balances to swing the pendelum back and forth.

One thing im really instreated in is how itemization will work. Will they go with wow where there is always something better and you raid to get it, like Guild wars where gear aint all that important, like CoH/CoV where you just get buffs....... The last thing i want to see is every space marine and thier brother in Terminator armor and the equivalent for other races.

What i think would be a better idea is that winning certian goals on some worlds (or say just for specific quests) will allow you access to that terminator gear and such. Questing/instancing will allow you to permenatly upgrade your gear, but things like dreadnoughts and terminator armor would be special limited use relitivly short duration things.

But the power gamer in me wants that terminator armor with lightening claws.

Another thing to keep in mind is that the fluff/story of 40k will suffer. the game cant be balanced without at least some of that

As to Space marines and bolters. They use em because they can. Space marines are much stronger and bigger than a normal person as such while a normal person would have to 2hand it and really realy fight the recoil, a space marine is big enough and strong enough to use it like a pistol. they use just about finge size bullets, but those bullets are explosive tipped.

hmmm i really need to start using word to check my spelling.

ohhh hope yall dont mind me jumping in the discussion. This is the first place i found people not going "OMG YOU IDIOTS YOU KNOW NOTHING"

McDeath
2007-03-23, 01:34 AM
The Imperium is NOT the good guys. The whole point of 40K is that there is no "side of good and justice". They all do things which are horrible by our system of morality. In the grim darkness of the far future, there is only WAR. Not "there is only an efficient and fair interstellar legal system".

leperkhaun
2007-03-23, 01:47 AM
The Imperium is NOT the good guys. The whole point of 40K is that there is no "side of good and justice". They all do things which are horrible by our system of morality. In the grim darkness of the far future, there is only WAR. Not "there is only an efficient and fair interstellar legal system".

Id see it as yes and no. In alot of fluff those fighting on the side of the imperium are often portrayed as the "heros" doing things for the good of the imperium.

Now granted things like extriemus are extreme, but (probably due to a lack of say eldar or tau specific books, or non imperial centric books) the imperium fights to save people even if it means some people have to die. As it stands at least for me the fluff seems to take the view of the imperium just trying to stay alive with all these outside forces trying to get rid of it or hurt it. Not saying they ARE good guys, it just SEEMS that they are suppose to be the closest thing to them.

either way ill be pissed if there isnt 'nids as playable race.

Destro_Yersul
2007-03-23, 02:27 AM
I'd say the reason the Imperium is generally treated as the good guys is because they're less likely to kill/torture/eat the average human than pretty much anyone, except the Tau. Well, assuming you join the Tau... but I digress. Mr. Average Joe human who isn't a psyker can live happily herding grox or whatever, and the Imperium will leave him alone. Nids? Devoured. Necrons? Flayed. Tau? Join us or die. Dark Eldar? Let's not go there. But the Imperium? Ok, you pay your taxes and you aren't a witch, so go on herding grox. Call us if your planet gets invaded.

crazedloon
2007-03-23, 02:39 AM
hmmm long quote, i think ill learn how to fix that later. As to the "why doesnt the inquisition kill the space wolves (or other chapter)". Politics.

Actualy not realy the Inquisition has tried to kill them on a few occasions and have failed for many diffrent reasons


If you are going to take out a chapter of space marines who share genetics with the primarchs (and thus the emperor)

Just to clean up your background they do not share his genes they are genetic experments (at least I am 98% sure)


who are mythical figures, and represent the the most powerfull (aside from the titan legons) ground soilders the imperium has to offer, who are also dispite there being thousands of chapters, a very small percent of the imperial fighting force WITHOUT 100% proof of that chapter commiting unforgivable heresy, is just asking to be annialated by the combined forces of the imperium (man im good at those run ons).
Actualy there is your problem you are only seeing half the power of the chapters. The reasons the space marines are so strong is because they rule over many planets, have their own space fleets that can rival most (Ok if it was full imperial vs marines of course marines will lose but What I mean is in a normal space battle), and have the strongest common fighting unit in the 40k universe (I say common becuase of course 1 marine vs carnafex is a lose for marines or vs 1 inner ork system war boss = lose)


Space Marines are powerfull as a Chapter. Your single run of the mill Space marine could be and on many many many occasions has been taken out by those "weaK" other humans. Could your ordinary inquisitor take out Ragnar? Not a chance, could said inquisitor take out a blood claw.... sure.
They would have a hard time of it. The diffrence between a marine and his power armor and anyone else is the marines body has been conditioned to work in it and others the armor is just slapped on. The Inquisitor is not nearly as fast,strong, not does he have any of the supper senses. The only thing the Inquisitor has is exp, and equipment and in 1 on 1 that may realy not help.


One thing people tend to miss about 40k is the fact that space marines in general do not act individually. They go around in squads and companies. Witch hunters, inquisitors, and they rest (excluding say Sisters of Battle) dont . One on One those specialty humans are a match for a space marine.... throw in 4 of that space marine's battle-brothers in the fray and then not so much.
Actualy you are far off Witch hunters will travel in small groups (read squad) as a single witch hunter is a dead one I dont care how good he is the uncontroled mind of a psyker is not something you screw with. Inquisitors are always surrounded by minions, scribes, and body guard they are not uber pimpzorz 1v1 fighters they are the arm of the law and as such bring with them the law (they dont pack well :smalltongue: )


Check out the fluff, there are many many examples where say tech priest electric priests or a single assasin has walked through 1 or 2 squads of space marines withoug breaking a sweat..... problem was that the 2 other squads were there. The strength of space marines is that 1) they are much more powerfull than ordinary people (witch hunters, inqusitors and the like are NOT ordinary people) 2) they train and fight backing each other up.
((I have no clue what the electrical priests you talk of are))
Assasins are a diffrent story I will take one of those over a marine anyday. Even the best commanders would have a hard time fighting an assasin.
Those people are ordinary people with exp and fansy gear and that is all. A marine is a vertual killing machine he has well over a dozen extra orgins designed to make him a better killing machine his bones have been turned to adamantine. They can spit acid (I am not joking) eat poison survive the vacume of space. They could crush a human skull with there bare hand. There are those humans that are rediculous (this would be your Catachan,Inqusitors,Witch hunters,Sisters,Elete guard units) then there are the Marines who are two steps above them.

Destro_Yersul
2007-03-23, 04:59 AM
I beleive he means techpriest engineseers. Closest I could get out of that, anyways. Also: In addition to what you said, Marines have a solid bone ribcage, can breathe pretty much anything, learn things by eating (though not to the extent Kroot do), have two hearts, form scar tissue near instantly, sleep and keep watch at the same time, see in the dark as well as daylight, can't get dizzy, can self impose suspended animation and have limitated protection from radiation. Yeah, Marines are awesome.

leperkhaun
2007-03-23, 05:18 AM
Actualy not realy the Inquisition has tried to kill them on a few occasions and have failed for many diffrent reasons

Just to clean up your background they do not share his genes they are genetic experments (at least I am 98% sure)

They are genetic experiments. The gene therapy they go through and the implants used the primarch's dna. decendent might be too strong a word. Anyway because of thier alterations they share dna of the primarch thus the emperor.

As to taking out a chapter of space marines..... i dont think i know of a instance where the inquisition has brought down its full wrath on a chapter.




Actualy there is your problem you are only seeing half the power of the chapters. The reasons the space marines are so strong is because they rule over many planets, have their own space fleets that can rival most (Ok if it was full imperial vs marines of course marines will lose but What I mean is in a normal space battle), and have the strongest common fighting unit in the 40k universe (I say common becuase of course 1 marine vs carnafex is a lose for marines or vs 1 inner ork system war boss = lose)

True



They would have a hard time of it. The diffrence between a marine and his power armor and anyone else is the marines body has been conditioned to work in it and others the armor is just slapped on. The Inquisitor is not nearly as fast,strong, not does he have any of the supper senses. The only thing the Inquisitor has is exp, and equipment and in 1 on 1 that may realy not help.

hmmmm i got a differing opinion on this one. While i think that space marine hero's in general rock out non space marine heros, those combat orientated inquisitors are on equal footing with most space marines.



Actualy you are far off Witch hunters will travel in small groups (read squad) as a single witch hunter is a dead one I dont care how good he is the uncontroled mind of a psyker is not something you screw with. Inquisitors are always surrounded by minions, scribes, and body guard they are not uber pimpzorz 1v1 fighters they are the arm of the law and as such bring with them the law (they dont pack well :smalltongue: )

bah to my lack of witchhunter logic. i think i should specify on inquisitor. Generally when im talking about a space marine/inquistor going head to head, im refering to the more martial of the inquisitors. Most of which are rather good fighters.



((I have no clue what the electrical priests you talk of are))
Assasins are a diffrent story I will take one of those over a marine anyday. Even the best commanders would have a hard time fighting an assasin.
Those people are ordinary people with exp and fansy gear and that is all. A marine is a vertual killing machine he has well over a dozen extra orgins designed to make him a better killing machine his bones have been turned to adamantine. They can spit acid (I am not joking) eat poison survive the vacume of space. They could crush a human skull with there bare hand. There are those humans that are rediculous (this would be your Catachan,Inqusitors,Witch hunters,Sisters,Elete guard units) then there are the Marines who are two steps above them.

those priests....god i cant remember thier actual name. Basically the tech priests inlaid circrity into thier bodies. This made them very fast and they could pump out enough energy to fry a marine in his armor. Something like lumien or some such.

now granted if a normal human went toe to toe with ragnar or another space marine hero....id not give them a slight chance of survival. However your normal space marine i think is well within doable for those rediculous humans ;p.

anywho, i think that in overall game balance i dont think that space marines will have such a distinct advantage as to outclass other races, and that them not being far supirior to the other choosable races can be easily and reasonably be justified while staying true to them.

i dont know about a vetren terminator squad though ;p

Hopefully i got those quoates right.

blackout
2007-03-23, 06:31 AM
I'd say the reason the Imperium is generally treated as the good guys is because they're less likely to kill/torture/eat the average human than pretty much anyone, except the Tau. Well, assuming you join the Tau... but I digress. Mr. Average Joe human who isn't a psyker can live happily herding grox or whatever, and the Imperium will leave him alone. Nids? Devoured. Necrons? Flayed. Tau? Join us or die. Dark Eldar? Let's not go there. But the Imperium? Ok, you pay your taxes and you aren't a witch, so go on herding grox. Call us if your planet gets invaded.

Oh, and, you've just been drafted. You'll be used as cannon fodder, and will never see your homeworld again. Here's your uniform, now march or be shot.

The Imperium is BAD.

Everto
2007-03-23, 07:41 AM
Maybe the reason some people think the Imperium are the good guys is because they're human like us? Or it's because, I forgotten where I read this but apperently Games Workshop doesn't allow the writers of the 40k novels to have xeno protaganists, this changed when Tau came along but that's still only two races.

McDeath
2007-03-23, 05:53 PM
The Imperium isn't good, no sir. They aren't even Lawful Neutral! Haven't you heard the Inquisition's motto? Better that a thousand innocetns die, than one kneels before Chaos. They have wasted entire planets just to make sure that the taint of chaos didn't spread beyond a certain city.

Everto
2007-03-24, 09:50 AM
I would rather die than have a remote chance of being a slave of chaos.
And that's exactly what a lawful neutral person would do anyway.

Bryn
2007-03-24, 12:29 PM
The Imperium is indeed pretty bad. The great thing about 40k is that few are any better... except perhaps the Eldar (if you're an Eldar, otherwise you're worth less than dirt) and Tau (assuming you are willing to join the Tau empire... otherwise :smallwink:)

Also, the Imperium isn't all like that. While there are certainly many who believe the '1000 innocents die' thing, there are (presumably) equal numbers who are not. A certain Colonel-Commissar Gaunt (who is canon, due to his presence in the IG codex, although the Black Library books might not be considered so) works steadfastly to make sure his regiment is well off - I am reminded of the part where they were in the trenches, although I can't remember which book. Outside the Imperial Guard, there are almost definately some (boring) Inquisitors who would be very careful to protect the civilians.

For the lucky, living on an agri-world or even a paradise world deep in Imperial space, Chaos cults are almost imaginary, the Imperium is a great and glorious thing that protects them from harm and keeps them where they are. For the hive worker, on the other hand, the Imperium is cruel and horrible, crushing them under ceramite boots. So it is impossible to claim the Imperium is entirely villainous - it is far too large and diverse for that. It leans towards the 'bad' side, but it is not entirely vile.

On the other hand, the 'kill the innocents' group are far more interesting...

Dragor
2007-03-24, 02:05 PM
Like above comments, they're all bad. Just because I play Witch Hunters doesn't mean necessarily I think their methods are just. They're all as bad as each other.

Wehrkind
2007-03-25, 12:32 AM
Yea 40K is designed specifically so every faction has a good reason to fight every faction, including their own. The result is that pretty much every faction is fairly well fanatical/evil/psychotic, in varying proportions. As much as I love shouting about purging the heretic, or purifying unbelievers with a melta gun when playing my Sisters (or even just painting them) it doesn't mean I am actually all about that. I am an atheist after all.
A choice of "favorite army fluff" is more a matter of what questionable part of human nature you like to indulge the most, while shooting your buddies that is, than "I am playing the good guys".

Except Chaos and Dark Eldar. They are pretty much evil without much argument for redemption.

Destro_Yersul
2007-03-25, 12:49 AM
Chaos isn't all that bad. They're, well, you know, the're just a bunch of really sweet guys, you know, who just happen to want to kill everybody. Hell, I feel the same way some mornings.

That aside, Chaos isn't evil per se, just different. Really, just because they want to corrupt/kill/pervert/mutate everything in sight doesn't make them evil. Well, maybe from our point of view. But what about their point of view? :smalltongue:

*this lighthearted post brought to you by Chaos Unlimited. It is in no way meant to be taken seriously, and should be veiwed as the humour it is. No offense is intended to chaos players (of which I am one), or in fact to humanity in general. This disclaimer will self destruct in ten seconds. Thank you, and have a nice day*

crazedloon
2007-03-25, 02:53 AM
Chaos isn't all that bad. They're, well, you know, the're just a bunch of really sweet guys, you know, who just happen to want to kill everybody. Hell, I feel the same way some mornings.

That aside, Chaos isn't evil per se, just different. Really, just because they want to corrupt/kill/pervert/mutate everything in sight doesn't make them evil. Well, maybe from our point of view. But what about their point of view? :smalltongue:

*this lighthearted post brought to you by Chaos Unlimited. It is in no way meant to be taken seriously, and should be veiwed as the humour it is. No offense is intended to chaos players (of which I am one), or in fact to humanity in general. This disclaimer will self destruct in ten seconds. Thank you, and have a nice day*

well now I am going to be attacked :smallwink:

When you think about it chaos is not evil they just have a different religion. Truly a chaos marine would not go outright kill say a cultist if they worshiped the same god (and didn’t really piss them off) indeed they might even help each other. They are only evil because you are not looking from their point of view. Their actions are just an expression of their faith so I would not put them on a diffrent level of evil then imperium, tua, eldar ect.

DE on the other hand those are some screwed up guys (thus the reason I love them and play them) they do evil acts for the fun of it and they have no discretion who or what they do them to. Homunculi often perform torture on themselves to learn and or enjoy the pain (and many become grotesques)

Also leperkhaun what I mean is if I recall correctly the primarcs are not made of the emperors DNA and thus not descended from him but all space marines are "descended" from the primarachs

If you still think that an above average human can stand against the average space marine you still are not seeing the reason space marines are so good. They have all those augmentations I and others listed as well as training of at least equivalent to an elite soldier in any army. Yes a "hero" level Inquisitor or others that you listed would be able to stand easily up to them but a normal or elite human could not. Now other races you start getting into a new ballpark.

leperkhaun
2007-03-26, 03:33 AM
well the primarch are clones of the emporer. at least i think they are.

anyway. im not saying the imperium is good, is that the fluff makes them out to be the "good guys" in most cases.

as to who can take on a space marine, i still hold that various members of different orders in the imperium can go head to head with a space marine and win

Rainspattered
2007-03-28, 09:47 PM
I disagree with the Imperium being "good." The thing that, fluff-wise, attracts me to Warhammer and 40k enough to want to spend money on it is that there are no good and bad guys. The Tau are a communist utopia, but the individual can be crushed in so much strength of community and union; the Imperium is easy to identify with, but they're a semi-dictatorial autocracy; the space marines are an army of semi-soulless, genetic supermen more akin to tanks than soldiers; the Eldar are a race fighting desperately and admirably for survival, but it's their own damned fault they've ended up where they have; the Orks are brave warrior people, reminscent of the Vikings, brutal but courageous and strong; the Chaos are rebels, but servants to another corrupting cause, an overpowering religious domination instead of governmental one.
And so on, and so forth. There are no noble heroes and no horrific villains. It's a big war. Good people do bad things. Bad people do heroic things. There is a chance for monsters to shed their scars and become men, or for good people to get lost in the frenzy of killing and the warmth of blood on their skin and turn into monsters.

Everto
2007-03-29, 02:42 AM
Orks are the obvious good guys. Why? Simply because they just want to have fun, they don't want you to join them like the Tau. They don't want you to not attack them like the Imperium or Eldar. They don't want revenge or whatever it is Chaos wants. They don't want to torture like the Dark Eldar. And they don't want to harvest you like the Necrons or the Tyranids.

Artemician
2007-03-29, 05:46 AM
<snip> the Orks are brave warrior people, reminscent of the Vikings, brutal but courageous and strong;<snip>


Orks are the obvious good guys. Why? Simply because they just want to have fun, they don't want you to join them like the Tau. They don't want you to not attack them like the Imperium or Eldar. They don't want revenge or whatever it is Chaos wants. They don't want to torture like the Dark Eldar. And they don't want to harvest you like the Necrons or the Tyranids.

Orks are fearless and non-malicious simply because they don't have the brainpower to comprehend these concepts. They have the appearance of being 'honourable' simply because compared to the complex snares and machinations of Chaos or the Eldar, they are simple.

The Ork concept of "fun" is hitting something until it either breaks or explodes. They are no 'honourable warrior-people', they are a Bio-Weapon developed by the Old Ones to combat the Necrons.

Are you sure you're not confusing them with Warcraft Orcs?

Shadow of the Sun
2007-03-29, 05:57 AM
If there is any noble race, it was taken out, and it was one of my favourites: The Squats. The Squats were humans that evolved on a high gravity world- they were actual engineers- they understood what they were doing, they traded, and had no real malice to anyone- they even traded with orks. Then they were refound by the Imperium, and got involved in a genocidal war.

crazedloon
2007-03-29, 07:01 AM
If there is any noble race, it was taken out, and it was one of my favourites: The Squats. The Squats were humans that evolved on a high gravity world- they were actual engineers- they understood what they were doing, they traded, and had no real malice to anyone- they even traded with orks. Then they were refound by the Imperium, and got involved in a genocidal war.

nah they were probably as bad. (to tell you the truth my background on them is a little shacky) however I do know it wasn't the Imperium that killed them it was the 'nids who ate them all up :smallwink:

also if you want good I would have to say 'nids all they want to do is eat and who can blame them (just becuase they strip a planet down to a barren rock when they eat doesn't mean they are evil :smallbiggrin: )

Penguinizer
2007-03-29, 07:32 AM
They are the "good guys". Theyre just trying to survive. They eat you. But theyre civil about it. They just eat the planet and get on with other business. They just want to be loved :P

The Prince of Cats
2007-03-29, 07:43 AM
My take on it was that there are no 'good guys' any more. Even the Imperium has become a little too devoted to exterminating the 'unclean' and wiping out whole planets just because one person might or might not have said, in passing while drunk, that Horus might not have been an altogether bad guy...

Rainspattered
2007-03-29, 06:21 PM
Orks are fearless and non-malicious simply because they don't have the brainpower to comprehend these concepts.
Some would say the totality of courage, in any species and any example, is being too dumb to know when you should be afraid.


They have the appearance of being 'honourable' simply because compared to the complex snares and machinations of Chaos or the Eldar, they are simple.
Hey, hey, I never used the H-word. I just said they were courageous and strong. I also likened them to Vikings, not Mainland European Knights or Samurai or Jaguar Warriors, or, for that matter, anyone who was not the Vikings. The Code of Heroism is quite different from that of Chivalry or Bushido. It includes, for one, the idea that if someone insults you, and you can't refute it with words, you kill them, thereby refuting it by deed. Which is pretty much the Ork way of going about things. Humility? Eff that, bragging is what warriors do. Manners? Take your liquor like a man, all in one gulp, throw bones at the dogs, they need to eat, too.
They're brutal, violent, and horribly ignoble, but they are corageous, and they are, even individually powerful, and they're one of the few civilizations in 40K without an oppressive, totalitarian government, replacing it with a bloody, dog-eat-dog system of individual domination based upon individual ability. They aren't good, they aren't bad. No-one in 40k is. That's the idea.

Destro_Yersul
2007-03-30, 12:28 AM
The nids aren't good, but they aren't evil either. They don't eat you cause they're evil, they eat you cause they're hungry.

LurkerInPlayground
2007-03-30, 12:35 AM
It's been mentioned before, but it's pretty much obligatory for this thread... (click for pic)
http://www.penny-arcade.com/images/2007/20070305.jpg

LurkerInPlayground
2007-03-30, 01:01 AM
Maybe the reason some people think the Imperium are the good guys is because they're human like us? Or it's because, I forgotten where I read this but apperently Games Workshop doesn't allow the writers of the 40k novels to have xeno protaganists, this changed when Tau came along but that's still only two races.
Arguably, it's because Games Workshop sells Warhammer 40k through the Space Marines. It's pretty much the mostly commonly used and advertised army.

----------

Also, on a different note--replying to somebody a page back...
The Inquisition has been able to crush entire Space Marine chapters due to mutations in their gene seeds. I think Grey Knights can be called upon for this.

J_Muller
2007-03-30, 01:02 AM
Who are the greasy armored brains again?

Incidentally, put that in a spoiler. You're stretching the page.

Bryn
2007-03-30, 09:13 AM
Tyranid Zoanthropes.
http://uk.games-workshop.com/tyranids/miniature-gallery/images/zoanthrope.jpg
That's the current model.

Reptilus
2007-03-30, 07:22 PM
I for sure am reading a novel with an Eldar Protagonist right now. Well, actually, he's an antagonist, really, but he happens to be the main character. all the other characters we've seen so far are also Eldar.

Penguinizer
2007-04-01, 10:04 AM
Well, the nids are just these guys you know.

Atleast they dont force you to do anything before eating you. they just do it and get on with everything else. No torture or anything.

Pilum
2007-04-01, 12:25 PM
I must admit to a minor problem with the way the Eldar are presented these days. Every appearance in the stories seems to imply something like the following having happened:

In the Craftworld's Crystal Forest, a Farseer stands to address the Council...
Brethren... I have summoned you here to address a grave threat I have foreseen. This image, as you all know, is of a warp gate, one which leads straight to the Palace of the Great Enemy. Our scouts have found it on the world the humans refer to as Wariscool, and is heavily fortified with a military culture and tradition stretching back even beyond my lifespan. Indeed, they are even now putting together a mighty force to repel a Chaos incursion in the next sector, led by one Gabriel Daemoncrusher, notorious loather of Chaos and destroyer of its works - indeed, a name I see many of you have heard of...

I have therefore decided to NOT alert this man and instead drop out of the sky unannounced, destroying everything in our path and weakening the planets defences against this incursion, before making a hopeless last stand around this gate where we shall fritter away the last remaining souls of our dying race. I will be captured and brought before Daemoncrusher, when I shall naturally tell him everything approximately, oh, 5 minutes before the Gate is activated by the incredible bloodshed caused by our intervention. It is Our Way, my fellow warlocks, and nothing may stand in the path of our Traditions.

:smallwink:

For what it's worth, I hate what they did to Orks with Gorkamorka - they could have used cod science and said that female orks are attracted to size and power, hence why da boyz grow and grow until someone gives them a real hiding. As to where females come from? Well, either they're 'hidden' the same way half the human race is, or, when necessary, that's what happens to the smaller orcs. They shift from neuter to female.

I'm tempted to offer an alternative view that the big ones shift to females in the same way that some species actually favour larger females than males, but as they are meant to be bio-engineered warriors it wouldn't make much sense to have the method of continuing your military constantly throwing themselves into the thickest fighting...

Ah well, I just don't think orkses have been the same since Waaagh! and 'Ere We go! (bombhead surgery and madboyz making friends with the enemy - god, you had to love the insanity in those books!). Where's my "Grumpy Old Fart" medal? :smallredface:

Maldraugedhen
2007-04-02, 06:51 PM
How my buds and I usually classify races as 'good' and 'evil':

'Good': the Imperium, Tau, Eldar.
'Evil': Orks, 'Nids, Chaos, Dark Eldar, Necrons.

Basically, if the race is more concerned with your death than its own survival (or, in the case of the 'Nids, needs to kill trillions upon trillions to let one hive mind survive), evil. If the race can, by stretching your perspective a bit, be seen as protagonists, then 'good'. Of course, we realize that their respective philosophies and flaws are more complex than this, but that doesn't really concern us too much when we're trying to set up 9-man megabattles.

Shadow of the Sun
2007-04-03, 12:15 AM
The Imperium is more concerned about going genocidal against everything that they see is against them. Random non-harmful mutation? Nuke your planet. Don't believe in the Emperor? Nuke your race. There is no way the Imperium can be seen as good- if there is even a 1 in 10 billion chance you will turn to Chaos, you are roasted.

Although, you could see this as pre-emptive survival tactics. The Imperium are just as concerned with your death as they are with your survival. I think that the Emperor would actually ally with the Eldar and the Tau if he wasn't a corpse.

Reptilus
2007-04-03, 09:07 AM
Basically, if the race is more concerned with your death than its own survival (or, in the case of the 'Nids, needs to kill trillions upon trillions to let one hive mind survive), evil.
I don't think it's fair to call the Tyranid evil because they have a different physiology than humans, really.


If the race can, by stretching your perspective a bit, be seen as protagonists, then 'good'. Of course, we realize that their respective philosophies and flaws are more complex than this, but that doesn't really concern us too much when we're trying to set up 9-man megabattles.
Anything can be seen as "good" by stretching one's perspective. Because of my beliefs about government, I'd actually see Orks as good before a massive, equally violent (especially considering they don't have the excuse of someone else designing them that way), totalitarian empire. Plus, orks are a random, psychotic violence without malice; it's what the orks do for fun. The Imperium kills genocidally, out of hated, and with immense premeditation.

As for the Eldar fluff, they're essentially making the Eldar out to be less and less sympathetic, except the Harlequins, who are becoming more and more so, largely because the group they dedicate themselves to mocking has been getting less likable; harlequins get all the sympathy of the eldar backstory without being a massive jerk like the rest of the eldar, and making fun of the eldar while they're at it.

Bryn
2007-04-03, 12:11 PM
The Imperium is not exclusively evil. Nor is it exclusively good. The same goes for the Orks, the Eldar, the Tau, whatever: there are many individuals at both extremes and everything between in every race.

For example, in the Imperium, you have Inquisitor Killsalot, who, upon discovering the presence of a Chaos cult on a planet immediately declares Exterminatus. On the other hand, you have Sister Healbot, who believes the best way to serve the Emperor is tending to its people and selflessly works among the poor of Hive Opressive to make sure that they are happy, even if it is a lost cause.
To take examples from actual fluff, the medic from Gaunt's Ghosts (if you take Black Library as canon) is as selfless and caring as they come - he doesn't fight, but he works hard to help not only his own regiment but others even when he would be more sensible to escape. On the other hand, the average commissar will not hesitate to execute somebody according to the fluff in the Imperial Guard codex, while Inquisitor [whatever his name was] in the Tyranid Codex consigned hundreds of planets to Exterminatus to stop Hive Fleet [whichever one it was... Behemoth? Kraken? I can't remember!]

I'd give further examples for the Tau, but I don't have my Cities of Death book, and I never had the Tau codex, but there were details of a Tau vs Imperial Guard campaign in which the Tau acted in a way that was by no means good. The same goes for the Eldar - IIRC, they redirected the Orks to Armageddon to protect a few thousand Eldar... at the cost of billions of human lives.

That said, the Imperium is generally pretty 'evil', and I say that as somebody who plays Space Marines and Imperial Guard. Part of what makes 40k so interesting is that nobody can be described as good, and all races are shades of very dark grey (as cliché as that phrase may be).

Penguinizer
2007-04-03, 12:17 PM
Nids might actually be the least evil. Then again, the eat entire frickin planets. And they have no concsience.

Reptilus
2007-04-03, 12:59 PM
The Eldar in general are really selfish. They've done tons of those things where they sacrifice billions of other things for one eldar. It's probably because they have to be with so few of them left alive.
The idea that nobody is good and nobody is evil is what attracted me to the 40K fluff, too, Z.

Eldpollard
2007-04-03, 02:41 PM
Dark Eldar are ones I would definately call evil, due to their delight in torture and slaves. Even if it is to continue the race.
Would you call necrons evil? I mean they have no control over their actions, it is down to their gods. The necrontyr were evil though, they hunted down the old ones.

TheOtherMC
2007-04-03, 02:53 PM
Well Dark Eldar may be "evil" persay but you have to give credit to Vects....hes a pretty shrewed businessman.

Maldraugedhen
2007-04-03, 08:13 PM
Note the second half of the paragraph in my post. We only establish them as 'good' for the purpose of setting up teams in megabattles. I agree that all of the races have their flaws--moral, physiological, AND social. That's just what we designate the team names as for megabattles.

Penguinizer
2007-04-04, 06:17 AM
Imagine how long a single turn in a 10 person 5 vs. 5 battle with each army being say. 5k points. 5 people playing nids and 5 imperial guard infantry. Heh, hours to move all the units.

Bryn
2007-04-04, 02:13 PM
Imagine how long a single turn in a 10 person 5 vs. 5 battle with each army being say. 5k points. 5 people playing nids and 5 imperial guard infantry. Heh, hours to move all the units.

Too true. I have bad experiences in megabattles with more people, although the individual armies were smaller. Especially when they're all newbies. I stick to small games now.