Group power disparity.

[Iron Angel]

Right, so in a group I am DMing there is a fighter that is just clobbering everything. They have heavily enchanted full plate armor and a heavily enchanted greatsword, and a couple levels in Dragon Disciple. This character is a monster. Pretty much all they have to do is walk between several enemies and attack once, and they cleave everything near them to death. Other characters have to actually fight, this character is jsut a steamroller that destroys everything. If I jack up the power of the monsters to combat him, then the rest of the party suffers because they can't even hurt the monsters. How on earth am I supposed to deal with this? How do I make a foil to this fighter without doing something that outright deletes them from the fight without inadvertently harming the rest of the party? Is there some kind of anti-fighter monster? The entire party is level 9, but every fight feels more like everyone is rolling just to get their turn out of the way so the fighter can power attack+cleave everything to death. This is not fun for anyone but the fighter and I don't like it but I can't really think of any way to fix it without being cheap.

[Jeff the Green]

Don't send melee brutes? There are lots of things that can neutralize a really powerful fighter without killing everything else: grapplers, enchanters, casters in general, skirmishers, swarms...

[FidgetySquirrel]

So you're having a classic tier 1 caster problem, but with a fighter. The best way to handle it is OOC discussion. Tell the player about the problem, and talk through a solution. If you start throwing enemies designed to mess with the fighter, you'll likely just create hostility.

If you can get the player to tone it down, then great. If not... things could get messy, but OOC is usually the way to handle this. Just make sure to tell the player that the power disparity is making it difficult to design encounters for the party. Most players will understand.

[(Un)Inspired]

Use battlefield control to hinder him. Solid fog, web, walls. these are all things he cant really deal with.

Alternatively try invisible or just regularly hidden enemies. He can't really hit what he cant see. so a series of rogue or ranger snipers that can tag him with arrows and then hide or tag him at a great distance will put him down pretty easily.

Ray spells that donk up his business will work great. Ray of exhaustion and enervation will put him down pretty fast. Especially with split ray metamagic.

Or hell just add conjurers with abrupt jaunt to your encounters to frustrate him a wee bit.

I'm assuming he can fly cause hes a dragon disicple but if he hasn't gotten that far in the prc yet then simply having people up it the air automatically makes him useless.

[TheIronGolem]

What other types of characters are in the party?

What kind of monsters have you been having the party fight, and what kind of tactics have they been using?

[Iron Angel]

He can't fly just yet. I like those other ideas though. Our last DM used Ray of Exhaustion on the paladin and they just resigned to going full defense the entire fight though. I don't want to generate antifun.

[Windstorm]

start using non-linear tactics. this isn't a game like final fantasy RPGs where everyone just lines up and does stuff, if you are using melee thugs, give them some spellcasting or ranged support, and when this fighter makes himself out to be a large threat, that gives you all the excuse you require to have the support focus him. without knowing the other elements of your party composition, some initial suggestions:

Wizard with Evard's Black Tentacles or Solid Fog. both of these will neutralize melee combat in the affected area more or less. for further ideas down this path check out the batman/god wizard handbooks for spell ideas and tactics (just don't throw a full one of these at the party, just the elements needed)
give your melee thugs an extra leg by utilizing tactics from tome of battle, or feats that allow you to control the pace of a melee combat
create multiple types of threats that must be engaged simultaneously, such as an ambush of ranged attackers with melee ones
provide problems that require non-combat solutions, make the other players feel useful in other ways so that the fighter feels less overbearing to them when he stomps combat


edit: as has been said above, ooc discussion is always a good tool for dealing with things, but without more information on the makeup of your party and general player sentiment I can't necessarily assume that it is the only/best recourse.

[(Un)Inspired]

He can't fly just yet. I like those other ideas though. Our last DM used Ray of Exhaustion on the paladin and they just resigned to going full defense the entire fight though. I don't want to generate antifun.

Well then I'd say web him and grease him. There super low level spells that make things kinda difficult for melee.

Include flying enemies in your battles. Leave some guys on the ground for him to whack but include levitating sorcerers, flying wizards, clerics riding zombie dire bats, raptoran archers in fact, station dude with range weapons on the top of walls and look out posts will give you a few turns of shooting at him before he can get to them where you other party member can fire range weapons and use spells.

[Rebel7284]

Please tell us more about the party including the level you are playing at. I assume it's a combat heavy game, right?

Fighters tend to fall behind by mid-levels because they are typically a one-trick pony. A small bonus to Strength and a few extra first level spells do not change that. The answer probably involves more intelligent, more varied opponents. Read Treantmonk's guide to being a god for some ideas about how to play a spellcasting opponent. :)

edit:
I see I have been Ninjaed on ALL my points! oh well.

[VoxRationis]

Include objectives besides "Kill everything in the room." Design them so that the other characters can do them better than a melee fighter. At the same time, include lots of enemies that the fighter should kill in order to keep them off the others' backs. Everyone then gets to be useful. The main problem here is that both the objectives and opposition, so far as you have described them, play right into that character's wheelhouse and only into that character's wheelhouse.

[Cenric]

- Make a mook a god level disarm/sunderer and just rustle his jimmies.
- Miss chance is a thing and oh god does it hurt melee
- A ray of enfeeblement is a 1st lv spell and will mess him up some
- As an extension, don't be afraid to make him work to use his big beating stick, I love my handful of d6s as much as the next guy but don't think its not fun because you targeted a bad save and he lost some damage
- Use higher strategy for your everyday fights, mooks don't stand side by side, BBEG has something guarding him, advantageous positioning by ranged enemies so it's difficult (but not impossible) to reach them

[FidgetySquirrel]

- Make a mook a god level disarm/sunderer and just rustle his jimmies.Whoa, now! I don't think we've gotten to the point where we need to start talking about sundering!

[TypoNinja]

One word. Grease.

Hes gonna have a terrible reflex save, and probably no ranks in balance (even if he did armor check penalty will murder him). One good grease patch and I bet he falls on his ass.

Grease is the bane of beatsticks everywhere.

[FidgetySquirrel]

Grease is the bane of beatsticks everywhere.:smallredface: I couldn't help but imagine this in blue text.

[(Un)Inspired]

Grease is the Aid of beatsticks everywhere.

Fixed that for you

[Iron Angel]

One word. Grease.

Hes gonna have a terrible reflex save, and probably no ranks in balance (even if he did armor check penalty will murder him). One good grease patch and I bet he falls on his ass.

Grease is the bane of beatsticks everywhere.

I was thinking more along the lines of grease his weapon so he keeps dropping it.

[(Un)Inspired]

I was thinking more along the lines of grease his weapon so he keeps dropping it.

Urg. Ugh. Errrr... Must... Resist... Making another beatstick joke...

[FidgetySquirrel]

Urg. Ugh. Errrr... Must... Resist... Making another beatstick joke...Please, there's not a man alive that can resist the mind-affecting (compulsion) effect of the feat sudden enlarge combined with the spell beatstick.

[PaintByBlood]

One suggestion I always liked: opposing caster readies an action, shrinks the melee-r's weapon. You don't disable the fighter outright, but you do make it so they really have to change gears.
I never got the chance to use this one, but I was going to try it on a barbarian that had been dominating any melee encounters in terms of damage. He ran afoul of a caster with scorching ray before I got the chance, though, and he was quite suddenly killed...

[Gabrosin]

If Cleave is messing up your bad guys... why are you keeping them so close together? Honestly, Cleave should be the least of your problems, always.

The other advice in this thread is pretty good. One thing that hasn't been suggested yet is simply doubling or tripling the HP of some of your melee mobs without advancing the rest of them. Let your fighter wail away on them for a good long while, as the rest of your party deals with other opponents that let them show their own worth.

As mentioned already, if this continues to be a problem you can't solve from behind the DM screen, have a talk with the character about toning it down. Alternately, try coaching up the rest of the players until they approach parity.

[DeltaEmil]

One suggestion I always liked: opposing caster readies an action, shrinks the melee-r's weapon. You don't disable the fighter outright, but you do make it so they really have to change gears.
I never got the chance to use this one, but I was going to try it on a barbarian that had been dominating any melee encounters in terms of damage. He ran afoul of a caster with scorching ray before I got the chance, though, and he was quite suddenly killed...If you're thinking about using shrink item to shrink the dragon disciple fighter's weapon, then that won't work, since the spell only works on nonmagical objects.

[Diachronos]

I stand by my belief that Grease is among the best spells in the game.

Aside from that, the biggest problem with the Fighter according to the information you've given is that anything in melee range of him gets slaughtered instantly. The most obvious solution is that he can't kill what he can't hit; anything that gives a miss chance or stays out of melee range solves that problem without much issue, and at the very least the Fighter's going to have to rely on the rest of the party to deal with the stuff out of range.

Also consider targeting his Will save with crowd control spells. Obviously not to turn him against his allies since he's going to crush everyone else in the party, but fear effects and "convincing" him to hand over his sword will cut down his power.

Also consider throwing some enemies similar to him at the party. That OP greatsword isn't going to do him any good if it keeps chinking off of their armor.

If none of that works, it may be time to give the rest of the party some heavy-duty equipment like what he has so they're at least close to his level of power. Then you'll be less likely to cause a near-TPK just from trying to make things a challenge for one player.
Speaking of which, how in the world did he get such powerful equipment without the rest of the party getting anything like that?

[FidgetySquirrel]

I stand by my belief that Grease is among the best spells in the game. It's incredible how many low level spells can just derail a fighter, isn't it? Now, how many of those spells can get busted out against a single PC fighter before some kind of rage event horizon is crossed...

[rexx1888]

this is a weird problem to have :\

[Jeff the Green]

If you're thinking about using shrink item to shrink the dragon disciple fighter's weapon, then that won't work, since the spell only works on nonmagical objects.

Granted, it's not a good idea to do this because it requires two actions you could be spending on much more useful things, but dispel magic will suppress the weapon's magical properties for 1d4 rounds, allowing you to shrink it.

[TypoNinja]

I was thinking more along the lines of grease his weapon so he keeps dropping it.

That works too, but I'm a sucker for the area effect since it doesn't allow charging, slows movement, and has a secondary effect that targets another ability that non-skill monkeys tend to ignore. Balance.



Granted, it's not a good idea to do this because it requires two actions you could be spending on much more useful things, but dispel magic will suppress the weapon's magical properties for 1d4 rounds, allowing you to shrink it.

....

That's genius. Why did I never think of that before now? I've GOT to pull this one somebody now. Are there any other good options besides Shrink Item to combine this with?

[Jeff the Green]

....

That's genius. Why did I never think of that before now? I've GOT to pull this one somebody now. Are there any other good options besides Shrink Item to combine this with?

Not my idea originally, alas. But I'm fond of shatter. :smallamused:

[lytokk]

anti fighter monsters, you mean rust monsters? Casters with Dispel Magic can also suppress the magical qualities of his items for a time. Warlocks with the eldritch blast which is a ranged touch attack so it completely ignores bonuses from magic armor. Or a monster standing right behind a pit trap.

[Segev]

Have intelligent enemies. I'm not trying to be flippant, here. But the way to reward the player for his might while still upping the challenge is to have enemies who recognize that standing next to him is death.

"Wait," says one of the hobgoblins in the unit readying to face the party, "Isn't that [character's name here]?"

"Oh, crap," agrees another, "you're right! SCATTER! Skirmish formation, everyone!"

The enemies split up, and try to stay out of his reach. They send their best tanks to try to hold off, maybe with clerics on hand for healing. I might recommend a legendary psion or psychic warrior for at least one encounter; heck, even a Wilder would work (possibly better): abuse the share pain/vigor combo with his psicrystal to have this character gain Manifester Level x10 temporary hp every time he needs to recharge. His job is to keep the uberfighter busy. Make him excited to be facing so mighty a foe as this fighter.

Use tactics that are designed to keep him busy while the enemies try to mop up the party. But do it in a way that acknowledges, IC, that they recognize him as The Big Threat on the field. Don't just neutralize him; do it by having enemies react to the fact that he's utterly terrifying.

And, when that's not appropriate, just accept that he'll slaughter things. Try to have encounters where non-smashy solutions may be superior.

[Ferronach]

Two words: Heat Metal
and another two: Chill metal

When my beatsticks get out of hand my DM uses these... really annoying when you have to drop your sword/axe etc. and get out of your armour because its boiling/freezing you....
but they are entirely valid spells that a brawler should be prepared to encounter.

[John Longarrow]

Iron Angel,

Several options to make the fighter less... uber.

1) 1HD mooks with tower shields. They plant and provide cover for reach/missile troops behind. Fighter gets stuck playing shield-wrecker trying to cut through to get to the soft targets behind.

2) Dragon Zombie (LM page 157ish) made by a caster with corpse crafter and raised in a desecrated area. Runs about 200hp with a DC 14 fear aura. Doesn't do a lot of damage and is easy to hit. By the book its CR 5, but with the extra HPs more like a CR 6.

3) Pixie Warlock. Nothing messes with melee builds like invisible, flying ranged combatants who attack (ranged touch) THEN move. 3 levels in Warlock of 2d6 ranged touch that is pretty much always going to hit from 50' up will shut down most melee gods.

4) spaced targets. 4 ogre skeletons spread out so he can't hit more than one per round (they've got reach) that surround and beat on him. They run CR 2, so you can toss several that will charge and flank.

5) Mix and match from the above. 1HD tower shield using mooks that keep him off the CR 2 ogre skeletons to draw him in. Once he gets spaced a little ways away from the group, the dragon and pixie show up.

[Magesmiley]

A couple of well-hidden pit traps in the middle of the battlefield that the fighter has to charge over will ruin his day. Especially if you give the enemies some oil to drop in on him once he's in it.

Another way to go if he's killing everything is to just put lots and lots of really weak opponents (possibly with buffs). If the enemies are going to die on the first hit, put lots of weak ones out there to compensate. Not sure what level the party is, but you might try putting a mob of standard kobolds backed up by a few low-level leaders (bard, cleric, sorcerer) who hang back and buff the mob.

Rust monster. Enough said.

Archers who are behind barricades or behind chasms.

[Crimson Wolf]

I have the best idea ever, it is simple, but so so so mean. Have them go on a quest to clear out "bugs" that are in a mage's basement. What said mage was to mention is the bugs are enchanted rust monsters that can effect magical metal. Keep them a threat (to items) but still damage wise not too powerful. Make them think on their toes to find ways around this strength of theirs. If anything, said fighter should resort to casting fist.

[Nibbens]

Use battlefield control to hinder him. Solid fog, web, walls. these are all things he cant really deal with.

This.

I'm a big fan of Wall of Ice. When he charges in, Place a WoI behind him. Send more enemies towards the weaker of the group, make him waste his time trying to come through the wall - besides, word of his clobbering everything is getting around - so enemies are getting more wary of him.

Also, try the sunder/disarm action every time he gets close - he'll start valuing the cost of his magic items when he no longer has them.

Lastly, Ability Damage. Poisons and Curses and Diseases, etc. Nail him with them. Next time he goes to buy a magic item to make himself more uber, he'll start putting a larger slice of his money towards scrolls and cure disease potions.

This will always help to bleed them dry. Lastly, you may want to consider giving out fewer Gold/items per monster bash.

[Spore]

Don't grease. Debuff him. Spells that don't take away actions or options. Spells that slow him down.

An offensive Reduce Person here to reduce his damage. Ray of Enfeeblement. Threaten the casters/others to keep him on his toes. Have mobile fighters to avoid full attacks from him. Let rangers "plink" away at him.

[AnonymousPepper]

Have intelligent enemies. I'm not trying to be flippant, here. But the way to reward the player for his might while still upping the challenge is to have enemies who recognize that standing next to him is death.

"Wait," says one of the hobgoblins in the unit readying to face the party, "Isn't that [character's name here]?"

"Oh, crap," agrees another, "you're right! SCATTER! Skirmish formation, everyone!"

The enemies split up, and try to stay out of his reach. They send their best tanks to try to hold off, maybe with clerics on hand for healing. I might recommend a legendary psion or psychic warrior for at least one encounter; heck, even a Wilder would work (possibly better): abuse the share pain/vigor combo with his psicrystal to have this character gain Manifester Level x10 temporary hp every time he needs to recharge. His job is to keep the uberfighter busy. Make him excited to be facing so mighty a foe as this fighter.

Use tactics that are designed to keep him busy while the enemies try to mop up the party. But do it in a way that acknowledges, IC, that they recognize him as The Big Threat on the field. Don't just neutralize him; do it by having enemies react to the fact that he's utterly terrifying.

And, when that's not appropriate, just accept that he'll slaughter things. Try to have encounters where non-smashy solutions may be superior.

This is doubtless the best option. It makes him feel good about himself while you still get the opportunity to show him his place.

It's a big stick with an equally big carrot. As opposed to just a big stick for all the other options in this thread.

[Ferronach]

Throw Oozes at him... Make sure that they are large (or bigger).

Slashing + large oozes = a whole lotta smaller oozes :smallbiggrin:
a whole lotta smaller oozes + slashing = even more oozes that are smaller still XD :smalltongue:

be nice and don't have the oozes destroy his weapon (I HATE it when that happens :smallfurious:)
This will keep him Very! busy - even if he has great cleave
Argue that the oozes are attracted to all of his metal or the magical aura of his sword and armour :smallwink:

He will still feel a sense of accomplishment (casters tend to do poorly vs most oozes) and he may even put the sword away and grab a club or something once he realises that he is making more work for himself.

I did this once: You see a pack of angry orcs down the hallway. The walls between you and them look slimier than the rest of the sewer walls.
Beatstick: I charge the orcs!
Me: As you pass the slimiest section the walls start to "wobble" roll a dex (or slip n fall).
The slipping gives the ooze(s) time to get around him and essentially box him in leaving the rest of the party to deal with the orcs n such :)

[Iron Angel]

So these are some really awesome ideas. I combined a few last night and it worked great, and everyone had a lot of fun. Adding a couple casters and some raised areas really made the difference, as well as giving free reign to find other solutions.

The group was trying to retrieve a magic horn from the tomb, and outside the cave leading to it was the guards. The ranger types in the lookouts on the sides of the opening were bored and not paying attention, and the mage and fighter were rummaging through crates outside. So our rogue ran up and clubbed the mage unconscious with a sap, stuffed his body in the box, and then climbed the slope to the platforms without being detected with some insane 19s and 20s on Move Silently, Climb, and Hide rolls. At the bottom of the hill were wooden barricades that were essentially sharpened logs meant to dissuade attack, so they all coordinated a plan. The Rogue climbed up behind them and pushed them 20 feet onto the ground, and the fighter ran up and made a bull rush attempt on them as they stood up and impaled them on the wooden spikes. Everyone else went the other way, and the sorcerer used scorching ray to collapse the other wooden platform, dumping the rangers onto the ground with the fighter, who was promptly tripped by the druid's riding dog companion. They mopped up, they coerced the mage the rogue had clobbered to use magic to disguise their outfits to be part of the bandit company's uniforms. Bandits being more loyal to their next haul of the loot than the company, he agreed as long as they let him live, which they did. They got inside and pretty much avoided 90% of the fighting by beating the bandit leader with disguise and bluff checks, and being led straight to the puzzle room, where the rogue clobbered the mage trying to figure out the puzzle there to interrogate him later. They looked through the mage's journals to get some clues about the puzzle, and eventually figured it out right as the leader of the Red Falcon Bandits, Captain Falcon, dug into the room from the side to avoid the puzzle.

I pretty much forced combat on them at that point and Captain Falcon made a dash for the horn. There were archers all lined up on a raised portion of the floor around the sarcophagus (As this was the burial chamber) and they got a few decent pot-shots off before the sorcerer fireballed half the room and then the druid turned into a bear and ate the ones that survived the fireball. The highlight of the fight was the sorcerer consistently failing to stand up after having the floor under him greased, on top of the druid accidentally entangling the entire party. I had a couple tanky guys occupy the fighter for a couple turns, and then the death knight showed up to try to kill Captain Falcon and he brought skeletons with him. All in all a great encounter.

[Bronk]

Sounds pretty neat! Just wanted to ask though about the fighter/dragon disciple... did he remember to take a spellcasting class in there somewhere to meet the requirements of the prestige class?

[Iron Angel]

Yeah he has a level of sorcerer.