The party member that makes you cringe...

[Cool Raoul]

Hello everyone,

So to make a very long story short I am about to embark on a 3.5 campaign based in medieval times, and I was looking for some class help.

The character is going to be an escaped convict and chaotic evil, he is going to do terrible things and make the party wonder why they are friends with me. I am looking for a class that fits the "prisoner" archetype with very limited magic as the DM is brand new and spells are hard :P

I am leaning on a rogue focus but I do a lot of dirty fighting (eye gouges, headbutts, grapples to a ground and pound, mostly any type of gruesome fighting) he needs to be somewhat charismatic as he is only with the party to evade the law.

He is a murderer, thief, and sociopath.

Sorry for the vagueness but I am drawing a blank at the moment

[(Un)Inspired]

Hello everyone,

So to make a very long story short I am about to embark on a 3.5 campaign based in medieval times, and I was looking for some class help.

The character is going to be an escaped convict and chaotic evil, he is going to do terrible things and make the party wonder why they are friends with me. I am looking for a class that fits the "prisoner" archetype with very limited magic as the DM is brand new and spells are hard :P

I am leaning on a rogue focus but I do a lot of dirty fighting (eye gouges, headbutts, grapples to a ground and pound, mostly any type of gruesome fighting) he needs to be somewhat charismatic as he is only with the party to evade the law.

He is a murderer, thief, and sociopath.

Sorry for the vagueness but I am drawing a blank at the moment


I BEG you, for your party's sake, don't make a character with this personality. Especially with a new DM.

That being said I recommend playing a factotum. They're like rogues only better with skills and at combat. Plus, they get some very limited but potent spell casting.

[Donny_Green]

I believe there is way to go warlock/assassin with fairly good results.

[FidgetySquirrel]

I BEG you, for your party's sake, don't make a character with this personality. Especially with a new DM.

That being said I recommend playing a factotum. They're like rogues only better with skills and at combat. Plus, they get some very limited but potent spell casting.Seconded, on both counts.

A character like that can be fun to play, but even experienced DMs can have problems when a party of decent people have a bloodthirsty token evil teammate.

[Nettlekid]

+1ing the "don't do it" recommendations, because there's really no reason to do it. I promise you, you'll annoy both the DM and your other players as you do Chaotic Stupid things for no reason and get in trouble all the time, and thus make the campaign more about your character's wacky antics than the actual plot. And perhaps more importantly, you hit the nail on the head in your OP, with "make the party wonder why they are friends with me." Exactly why don't they slit your throat in your sleep? You're more than likely to do the same to them, and when you start torturing people and doing horrible things for fun, you're going to cross the line and be more of a target than the village-raiding-goblins and the baby-eating-kobolds that the party would normally fight.

Why not try playing up a Chaotic Neutral or True Neutral character that really goes for that neutrality? Someone who sees the world not as Good and Evil but as a balance, and strives to keep that balance. Have you seen Game of Thrones? The character of Jaqen H'ghar might be interesting to try, one of great and mysterious power but who keeps to the shadows and acts for reasons that are obvious to him and alien (but useful nonetheless) to the party.

[FidgetySquirrel]

Not to say a token evil teammate is always a bad thing. When the concept is well-executed, and all of the players know ahead of time, it can do great things for RP. This PC is better suited for an all-out evil campaign, though.

[Snowbluff]

I believe there is way to go warlock/assassin with fairly good results.

Marrulurk Warlock would be more synergistic. They get a Cha based Death Attack.

[Nettlekid]

Not to say a token evil teammate is always a bad thing. When the concept is well-executed, and all of the players know ahead of time, it can do great things for RP. This PC is better suited for an all-out evil campaign, though.

At the all-too-probable risk of turning this into ANOTHER alignment debate thread, how harshly are you defining Evil? I'm all for a Slytherin type of character, with the self-invested aspect often opening the "Hey, maybe we can't afford the rose-tinted option and we'll have to do some morally ambiguous things to get what we want" routes, and I could see that being possible Evil more more Neutral than anything. Any kind of "token Evil" type, like that which the OP is discussing but also just the kind of "Well we could let the captives go, but we don't have NOT to hurt them" type tends to clash with most parties that would be actually out adventuring, at least in my experience.

[icefractal]

The character is going to be an escaped convict and chaotic evil, he is going to do terrible things and make the party wonder why they are friends with me.Right there, that's the problem. Why is the party friends with you? If it's "because I'm a PC, they have to" then FAIL - go back to the drawing board, because that's the equivalent of "it's mostly edible" as a restaurant review. :roach:

If, on the other hand, the other players actually like your idea, and can come up with a reason that they would keep traveling with you instead of tossing you into the nearest crevasse, then go for it. :smallcool:

But otherwise, don't. It's not going to end well.

[Balor01]

Do not listen to these LG/NG/CG wannabe whiners. DnD is about freedom.

If you'd be playing in my campaign, you'd just have to keep away from stronger celrics and paladins. Weaker ones, he he ... they do not really need those eyes, ears, noses, toungues and other appendages, do they? And what about female paladins?

Go full Bolton and be classy.

[JusticeZero]

The last time I saw a character like that in the party, the group killed them and destroyed the body at the end of the session in which they were introduced. I wouldn't suggest it.

[Inevitability]

Do not listen to these LG/NG/CG wannabe whiners. DnD is about freedom.


No, it is about having fun together. When a character is being disruptive, doesn't fit in with the rest of the group and has goals that contradict those of the party, then a lot of people aren't having fun anymore and you probably should create a new character.

[lytokk]

If you can actually get the players on board with this idea before the game starts, I'd say go with it. Granted, its gong to fall to your character to make reasons the party keeps you around, which any escaped hiding convict should be doing anyway. Maybe try Beguiler. Never played one myself but they seem to fit, someone so brilliant they're downright insane.

[Oddman80]

There is a big difference between a character being crazy/doing terrible/frightening things that make the party a little nervous, and doing those things to the fellow party members. It didn't sound like the OP was saying he planned on murdering/torturing all of his fellow party members.

No I am thinking this is more of the guy who gets in a brawl, and when it is clearly over, and everyone else is ready to walk away, he goes and curb stomps one of the fallen foes. This is the guy the party members needs to pull off the dead gnoll, because enough is enough, and now he is just making a mess.

I would take the feral template (SS, p 116), giving you faster movement, +6 natural armor, claw attacks, improved grab, fast healing 2, darkvision... all things that would mesh well with the savage criminal you want to build.

Take Barbarian for your first class level and pick up the Rage ability, and yet another 10' of fast movement.
Take the Feat: Extra Rage (CW, p 98)
Take the Flaw: Uncontrollable Rage (Dragon #325), and with it, pick up the feat Reckless Rage (RoS, p 143) to make your rages more ferocious and, well, uncontrollable. You will keep clawing, biting, and bashing that dead enemy until your rage ends, unless your allies pull you off and subdue you. And they might think twice about doing that - as it may cause you to lash out at them. This isn't as extreme as the Frenzied Berserker where you just start attacking your party members... that is unless they actively get in your way.

From there, you can go in any direction you want, but you will have the base framework of the out of control pain dealer.

[Donny_Green]

No, it is about having fun together. When a character is being disruptive, doesn't fit in with the rest of the group and has goals that contradict those of the party, then a lot of people aren't having fun anymore and you probably should create a new character.

I think this is a fair point considering the GM is new, though he still might be able to find some common goal for them to come together.

For instance "Yeah I fought along side the army when my city was attacked by a hoard of goblins... no one attacks my city without my permission."

The harder part is dealing with a player who's so wrapped up in his characters roll, or so inexperienced that he forgets to play nice with everyone else.

I"ve played with guys like that. One is lawful good and won't let anyone negotiate with any evil entities (which is like everyone but the group) He says "I'm just playing the character" and then pull crap like "and your not playing your character right because...."

The truth is, he can't play well with others. He's to wrapped up in his character to realize that he's playing at a table with other people and he needs to let some of that RP go so others can have some fun.

Evil character bad, but Selfish or foolish people tying to play difficult characters is even worse.

[Donny_Green]

If you can actually get the players on board with this idea before the game starts, I'd say go with it. Granted, its gong to fall to your character to make reasons the party keeps you around, which any escaped hiding convict should be doing anyway. Maybe try Beguiler. Never played one myself but they seem to fit, someone so brilliant they're downright insane.

take a whisper gnome beguiler and get shadowcraft mage, at level 9 people will actually believe you could be a murderer.

[Dalebert]

Why is the party friends with you? If it's "because I'm a PC, they have to" then FAIL - go back to the drawing board, because that's the equivalent of "it's mostly edible" as a restaurant review. :roach:

Exactly. The PC glow is bull. Do not create and play your character as if the rest of the PCs are obligated to keep you in the party or not kill you. They're not.


Exactly why don't they slit your throat in your sleep?

If I were playing a CG character, that's exactly what I would do when I realized he was evil from his actions. If I was LG, I'd turn him in or at least kill him in a less underhanded way. If they don't, then they're not really role-playing their characters honestly.


If you can actually get the players on board with this idea before the game starts, I'd say go with it. Granted, its gong to fall to your character to make reasons the party keeps you around, which any escaped hiding convict should be doing anyway. Maybe try Beguiler. Never played one myself but they seem to fit, someone so brilliant they're downright insane.

This is the key. I played a NE beguiler with a mostly good party. It was mostly about faking. Beguilers get Undetectable Alignment at 1st. I was casting it at the end of every day for good measure if I had any 1st level spell slots left, and I always did. Your alignment describes your motivations and morals, but being evil doesn't mean you're stupid. It could actually be a lot of fun to figure out how evil you can get away with being without letting them know. Just hide it well. But if you don't bother hiding it, expect to die. If the other players aren't playing their presumably good characters honestly, then they deserve to have a miserable time. If they don't have the balls to kill you, the game might just suck enough that it fizzles from lack of fun for everyone but you.

[Nibbens]

No, it is about having fun together. When a character is being disruptive, doesn't fit in with the rest of the group and has goals that contradict those of the party, then a lot of people aren't having fun anymore and you probably should create a new character.

Agreed for two reasons - one, D&D is about every one having fun. If you're planning on just being a bad guy, make sure ALL your other players and DM are okay with it first. Second, your DM is new. There's no better way to destroy this game and end it than running him through this gauntlet. Please be kind to the new guys and start off easy. The Supreme Freedom thing can come after he's bumped and dinged his way through a few months (or years) of gaming.


Seconded

Thirded. lol

[FidgetySquirrel]

At the all-too-probable risk of turning this into ANOTHER alignment debate thread, how harshly are you defining Evil? I'm all for a Slytherin type of character, with the self-invested aspect often opening the "Hey, maybe we can't afford the rose-tinted option and we'll have to do some morally ambiguous things to get what we want" routes, and I could see that being possible Evil more more Neutral than anything. Any kind of "token Evil" type, like that which the OP is discussing but also just the kind of "Well we could let the captives go, but we don't have NOT to hurt them" type tends to clash with most parties that would be actually out adventuring, at least in my experience.Well, having a Belkar in most good/neutral parties will probably derail the campaign pretty fast. I'm more talking about someone who's going along with the adventurers mostly out of self-interest. Perhaps completing the big good questline will help vim realize vis goal of world domination, or whatever. Maybe the BBEG is going to turn the material plane into a negative energy plane teeming with undead, and our evil adventurer doesn't want that.

My thinking is someone who can work well with the party, which is admittedly easier with neutral PCs than good ones. This person would be willing to use means like kidnapping, blackmail, torture, perhaps even murder, to see the adventure through to the end. If necessary, the character will try to hide these acts from the more... sensitive PCs. These acts shouldn't be committed for teh evuls, but should always be done with the big picture in mind. I'm talking token evil teammate, not chronic backstabbing disorder.

This person would want to be in the party, and should act in a way to encourage the party to keep vim around. Perhaps ve even likes the good-natured PCs, but believes they don't have the stomach to get the job done. In a fantasy setting, evil doesn't have to be destructive and uncompromising. It can be friendly and co-operative, but with a sinister side lurking beneath the surface that only those unfortunate enough to get in the way of 'the plan' have to see.

[Synar]

And what about female paladins?


What, exactly, are you suggesting?

[Brookshw]

Agreeing that a discussion with the dm/group is paramount before you go any further.

[WeaselGuy]

Yeah, I'm DMing for the first time in a long time (about a decade) and we're a few sessions in, level 3 I think. We have a NE Whisper Gnome Cleric/Crusader (planning on going into RKV), a TN or CN (can't remember) Gunslinger/Psychic Warrior (I think he's planning on some Elocator/Deepwood Sniper shenanigans) and the new guy, who's a NE Death Master, who actually plans on shifting alignment to NG for backstory reasons. It's been interesting dealing with the Cleric dumping bodies, palming loot, and generally lying his face off, but makes for some hilarious situations, mostly with me looking at my computer screen trying to figure out how to read the next paragraph...

Long Story Short, I told them straight up at character creation, I did not care what alignment they chose, as long as they operated as a group for whatever reason they concocted. If they didn't they'd die or get thrown in prison. And if they don't act like their alignment, it will shift. Which happened yesterday... The gunslinger brought in an alt to help level the new guy up, and quickly went from TN to CE, shortly before being blown up (sort of accidentally >.>)

[Grod_The_Giant]

Agreeing that a discussion with the dm/group is paramount before you go any further.
Yes. Get everyone's OK on this before you go any farther.

[Cool Raoul]

There is a big difference between a character being crazy/doing terrible/frightening things that make the party a little nervous, and doing those things to the fellow party members. It didn't sound like the OP was saying he planned on murdering/torturing all of his fellow party members.

No I am thinking this is more of the guy who gets in a brawl, and when it is clearly over, and everyone else is ready to walk away, he goes and curb stomps one of the fallen foes. This is the guy the party members needs to pull off the dead gnoll, because enough is enough, and now he is just making a mess.

I would take the feral template (SS, p 116), giving you faster movement, +6 natural armor, claw attacks, improved grab, fast healing 2, darkvision... all things that would mesh well with the savage criminal you want to build.

Take Barbarian for your first class level and pick up the Rage ability, and yet another 10' of fast movement.
Take the Feat: Extra Rage (CW, p 98)
Take the Flaw: Uncontrollable Rage (Dragon #325), and with it, pick up the feat Reckless Rage (RoS, p 143) to make your rages more ferocious and, well, uncontrollable. You will keep clawing, biting, and bashing that dead enemy until your rage ends, unless your allies pull you off and subdue you. And they might think twice about doing that - as it may cause you to lash out at them. This isn't as extreme as the Frenzied Berserker where you just start attacking your party members... that is unless they actively get in your way.

From there, you can go in any direction you want, but you will have the base framework of the out of control pain dealer.

This. Thank you, I wrote my op pretty quickly and I was in know way going to harm the party. One of the reasons for them keeping him around though would be his combat prowess or set of skills that he brings to the party. I do enjoy the uncontrollable rage.

[WeaselGuy]

Sounds a lot like Sabertooth actually... and with the description that guy gave above, it also sounds extremely fun to play. I might have to try it sometime :-)

[PraxisVetli]

While casting is something you said you wanted to stay away from, Beguilers are pretty freakin sweet. Any metamagic that starts with 'Fell' can be usefull, and the spell list is already lots of fun.

That aside, for a melee, do whatever it takes to win, grab twist pull type combatany, may I suggest the humble Black Blood Cultist from Champions of Ruin?
Works great on a Barbarian too, if that's what you were looking at.