PF Silly Questions Thread

[Dalebert]

Pathfinder
What is "silly" is totally up to your personal judgment. I'll kick it off with the question that inspired me and I'm just embarrassed to ask in the main thread as if I'm wasting people's time but it's bugging me! I'm sure more will come to me. Feel free to carry on at length arguing over things that don't matter. That's what the thread is all about.

Q 1
Does hydrophobia (http://www.pathfindersrd.com/magic/all-spells/h/hydrophobia) work on water-based creatures? Would it work on dolphins or merfolk, for instance? Would they be in a rush to escape the water? Would they take damage? It says damage is from "swallowing water" and not necessarily drowning.

[SweaterKittens]

I would say, based on the wording of the spell, that yes it would. It does not specifically target creatures that can drown, only that it makes the creatures deathly afraid of it. Personally, I would say that they would be exempt from the damage, despite the 'swallowing' keyword. I think the RAI is that if it is cast on something that normally breathes air, then they panic and begin to act as someone who is drowing (i.e., swallowing water while desperately trying to get air). I would also say that yes, the creature would try to get out of the water. The duration is fairly short, so I can't see it being used in any gamebreaking way, really.

Q 2
When enchanting items, the PHB says that you must have at least +1 on the item before it can be enchanted. does this mean that any of the '+1 Equivalent' enchantments, such as Keen and Valorous actually cost 8,000 on a stock item, since you're required to pay 2,000 to enchant it to +1 first, then 6,000 to get it to 'equivalent +2'?

[Spore]

A1 Completely RAI I would give them +4 on the save and let it affect them. Similar to how Baleful Polymorphing a person into a fish on land is harder.

A2 Yes. But it is then a +1 Keen Weapon.

[Dalebert]

Q 3
What sorts of ways are there, such as feats or magic items, to raise your caster level above your character level, if any?

Q 4
How subtle is a supernatural ability? Apparently they require no verbal or somatic components and don't provoke AoO. So could a witch, for instance, use Slumber on someone in a tavern without anyone knowing she caused it? Maybe let people think the person just had too much to drink?

[Segev]

Q 3
What sorts of ways are there, such as feats or magic items, to raise your caster level above your character level, if any?With the aid of a Bard's Inspire Greatness, the Practiced Spellcaster feat can raise your CL by up to 4 above your level (as long as the bard can Inspire that many HD onto you). Arcanist's Gloves give an outright +2 to your CL. With cheesy shenanigans to give your wizard some spontaneous casting ability, Ultimate Magus's levels that give "+1 to prepared/+1 to spontaneous" will actually give +2 wizard casting levels. Unlike the Arcanist's Gloves, which can be argued to apply "second," this definitely would not stack with the Practiced Spellcaster trick, however.


Q 4
How subtle is a supernatural ability? Apparently they require no verbal or somatic components and don't provoke AoO. So could a witch, for instance, use Slumber on someone in a tavern without anyone knowing she caused it? Maybe let people think the person just had too much to drink?
If it doesn't specify a cue, then yes, you can be that subtle. Many supernatural abilities do specify a cue as to what's going on. Dragons breathe their breath weapons, medusae have to meet your gaze, etc.


Q5: Am I reading Item Familiar's inheritance rules correctly? Does inheriting an Item Familiar give you the exp, spells, and skills invested in the item by its previous owner? (i.e. the 200/level + 10% total exp, the skill ranks AND extra skill bonuses, and both the invested highest-level spell slot and the spell slot two levels lower?)

[Dalebert]

With the aid of a Bard's Inspire Greatness, the Practiced Spellcaster feat can raise your CL by up to 4 above your level (as long as the bard can Inspire that many HD onto you). Arcanist's Gloves give an outright +2 to your CL. With cheesy shenanigans to give your wizard some spontaneous casting ability, Ultimate Magus's levels that give "+1 to prepared/+1 to spontaneous" will actually give +2 wizard casting levels. Unlike the Arcanist's Gloves, which can be argued to apply "second," this definitely would not stack with the Practiced Spellcaster trick, however.

I don't think Practiced Spellcaster or UM is available in PF. I will ask my DM if he'd allow Arcanist's Gloves though I was hoping for something that would affect higher than 1st level spells. I guess it's a pretty powerful effect and I should not expect it to come easily.


Q5: Am I reading Item Familiar's inheritance rules correctly?

I couldn't find that in a search of the PFSRD. I think you may have overlooked that this is a PF thread.
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/

[grarrrg]

I couldn't find that in a search of the PFSRD. I think you may have overlooked that this is a PF thread.

You may want to go back and edit the first post and put "Pathfinder" in a big bold font.
Also, the "Pathfinder title tag" doesn't appear in the posts at all, so you may want to put a semi-redundant "PF" in the Title as well.

[Cowardly Griffo]

Q6: If you're a Wild Shadow Ranger of at least level 11 who later goes all the way through Horizon Walker, would every single attack you make entangle your foes, or would this not work in Urban settings?

[Dalebert]

Q 7

Curse of Lycanthropy (Su)
A natural lycanthrope's bite attack in animal or hybrid form infects a humanoid target with lycanthropy (Fortitude DC 15 negates). If the victim's size is not within one size category of the lycanthrope, this ability has no effect.

Does this mean you could potentially make anything humanoid into a were-creature? For instance, could a medium-sized wererat infect something large. Then the large wererat infect something huge, and so on? It occurs to me as I'm writing this that there may not be any humanoids that are larger than large. Not sure.

Q 8
Most wererats are medium-sized and turn into dire rats (small). Would a large creature turn into a larger version, i.e a dire rat with the giant template which would make it one size larger (medium)? This is actually relevant to a game I'm running today.

[Psyren]

Q 4
How subtle is a supernatural ability? Apparently they require no verbal or somatic components and don't provoke AoO. So could a witch, for instance, use Slumber on someone in a tavern without anyone knowing she caused it? Maybe let people think the person just had too much to drink?

How subtle they are is left up to the DM really - there's a common sense element to their use. Some do have obvious verbal components, like Cackle.

As a rule of thumb, if they don't describe a specific movement or sound being made I consider them to be still and silent.


Q 7


Does this mean you could potentially make anything humanoid into a were-creature? For instance, could a medium-sized wererat infect something large. Then the large wererat infect something huge, and so on? It occurs to me as I'm writing this that there may not be any humanoids that are larger than large. Not sure.

Giants are humanoids now there are a few Huge ones. Cloud Giants (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/humanoids/giants/giant-true/giant-cloud) for example.

[grarrrg]

Q6: If you're a Wild Shadow Ranger of at least level 11 who later goes all the way through Horizon Walker, would every single attack you make entangle your foes, or would this not work in Urban settings?

This works, even in Urban terrain.
But it takes a Standard Action to start, and you can only do it _one_ opponent per hour (at best), AND that opponent must also be a Favored Enemy.
The Instant Enemy spell can help fix that last one, nothing doing about the first 2 though.

And you don't even need 10 levels of Horizon Walker, just go Shoe Shopping (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/wondrous-items/a-b/boots-of-friendly-terrain) instead.

[FabulousFizban]

Pathfinder
Q 1
Does hydrophobia (http://www.pathfindersrd.com/magic/all-spells/h/hydrophobia) work on water-based creatures? Would it work on dolphins or merfolk, for instance? Would they be in a rush to escape the water? Would they take damage? It says damage is from "swallowing water" and not necessarily drowning.

my DM once made my character afraid of his own hand, so yeah sure why not. I would say they probably get over it pretty fast or have to deal with some kind of insanity, but it is workable.

the character was wisdom drained to 0 by an allip. DM thought it would be funny to make my insanity be a fear of my hand. I couldn't make the saves for the remainder of the dungeon due to my wisdom being so low (when I eventually woke up), so we tied my arm behind my back so I couldn't see the hand. It turned dark though when we got back to town. Still fearful of my hand, I had it welded into a locked gauntlet. I had the blacksmith heat the gauntlet while on my hand until the flesh melted to it. I roleplayed the screams and everything.

[abadguy]

Q9. As a paladin with the remove paralysis Lay on Hands Mercy, can you remove paralysis on yourself? A paralyzed creative cannot move or act but can take purely mental actions.

[Yanisa]

A9

Lay On Hands (Su)

Beginning at 2nd level, a paladin can heal wounds (her own or those of others) by touch.
So no, the paladins needs to touch herself to cure that paralysis.

[Arbane]

A9

So no, the paladins needs to touch herself to cure that paralysis.

But everyone is always touching their own bodies, unless astrally projecting....

[abadguy]

But everyone is always touching their own bodies, unless astrally projecting....


A9

So no, the paladins needs to touch herself to cure that paralysis.

Ok so DM fiat I guess?

[meschlum]

Q 7


Does this mean you could potentially make anything humanoid into a were-creature? For instance, could a medium-sized wererat infect something large. Then the large wererat infect something huge, and so on? It occurs to me as I'm writing this that there may not be any humanoids that are larger than large. Not sure.

Q 8
Most wererats are medium-sized and turn into dire rats (small). Would a large creature turn into a larger version, i.e a dire rat with the giant template which would make it one size larger (medium)? This is actually relevant to a game I'm running today.

Lycanthropy is a great way to get free stat replacement for your casters and melee types.

That aside, the Lycanthrope Template states that the affliction can only be passed on to a humanoid within one size class of the base creature's size. So a Medium Humanoid (the vast majority) can get lycanthropy from animals in the Small to Large range only.

Q7: No such luck. The Base Animal is the Dire Rat (Small), so only Tiny to Medium humanoids can become Were-Rats. On the other hand, a Giant Dire Rat is Medium, so Small through Large humanoids can become Were-Giant Dire Rats, if infcted by a Were-Giant Dire Rat, of course.

The template options are amusing, since Young creatures will, presumably, get over having the template at some point - which also means the loss of lycanthropy! A Young Ogre is Medium, so it can become a 'normal' Were-Dire Rat. Once the Ogre is old enough, it becomes Large again, and cannot be a Were-Dire Rat anymore.

Amusingly enough, lycanthropes remain humanoids (with the shapechanger subtype), so they can catch more forms of lycanthropy. The RAI are probably that the base form (not hybrid or animal) is used as a baseline for allowed sizes, but this is not specified. So a were-tiger (Large in hybrid form) could become a were-elephant (Huge in hybrid form), allowing the transition to were-tyrannosaurus. Editing.

Q8: Yes. When a lycanthrope adopts animal (not hybrid) form, it gains the size of its animal form. Since a Large creature must be a Were-Giant Dire Rat, it gains the size of a Giant Dire Rat, i.e. Medium.

Note that when a lycanthrope assumes hybrid form, it has the largest size of its base humanoid or base animal forms. This does not affect physical attributes, which remain the maximum of the base humanoid form and the base animal form.

[Cowardly Griffo]

Q10: Would it be off-theme to put Blistering Invective (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/b/blistering) on the Paladin spell list so that Inquisitors don't get to have all the fun of cussing at the heretics until they catch fire?

[Yanisa]

But everyone is always touching their own bodies, unless astrally projecting....

Ok so DM fiat I guess?

Well the ability is Lay on Hands, so the implications seems you need to use your hand in that touch. Most likely it seems you need to touch the wound you want to heal judging from the sentence "a paladin can heal wounds by touch".
Also:

Using this ability is a standard action, unless the paladin targets herself, in which case it is a swift action.
Thus touching yourself isn't a free action, there is actual effort involved in this whole touching yourself.

So this implies some sort of "somatic" component to Lay on Hands, which means it isn't a pure mental ability, regardless of who is getting the healing. (So even if you are paralyzed and fall on someone else, you cannot heal that person.)

Speaking about paladins

Q11
Is there a source about when Paladins get their lay on hands back? Is it tied in with spells (and thus the favorite time of day of the deity) or does it happen at midnight?

[grarrrg]

A9
So no, the paladins needs to touch herself to cure that paralysis.Well the ability is Lay on Hands, so the implications seems you need to use your hand in that touch. Most likely it seems you need to touch the wound you want to heal judging from the sentence "a paladin can heal wounds by touch".
Also:

Thus touching yourself isn't a free action, there is actual effort involved in this whole touching yourself.

So this implies some sort of "somatic" component to Lay on Hands, which means it isn't a pure mental ability, regardless of who is getting the healing. (So even if you are paralyzed and fall on someone else, you cannot heal that person.)

There's also this "Despite the name of this ability, a paladin only needs one free hand to use this ability."
You need a Free Hand to use this. There is nothing saying a self-target ignores needing a Free Hand.


Q11
Is there a source about when Paladins get their lay on hands back? Is it tied in with spells (and thus the favorite time of day of the deity) or does it happen at midnight?

All it says in description is "each day", so...

[Dalebert]

Well the ability is Lay on Hands, so the implications seems you need to use your hand in that touch. Most likely it seems you need to touch the wound you want to heal judging from the sentence "a paladin can heal wounds by touch".

I agree with the former, and it is an action that seems to at least involve a somatic component. It's not purely mental. I disagree with the latter, however. Couldn't this be used as an attack against undead? In which case, it would be a touch attack and use touch AC which is easier than armored. You just have to make physical contact with the recipient. Further, what if their injuries are internal? Do you have to touch those? No.

Maybe a generous DM would allow it if you somehow happened to have your own hand on your body, like if you were conscientiously fighting with one hand on your waist or something, like with fencing.



Q11
Is there a source about when Paladins get their lay on hands back? Is it tied in with spells (and thus the favorite time of day of the deity) or does it happen at midnight?

I wouldn't expect this to be addressed specifically unless it were unusual but you did make me curious as to how spell-like abilities with per-day limits are recovered. I would expect this to follow those guidelines. I've spent some time searching for exactly that and have had no luck so far. This is a pretty big area of ambiguity. In the case of a paladin, I would say it happens at the time they would pray and regain spells but without the same limitations, i.e. even if they don't manage to rest and pray to recover spells, their daily powers would be renewed at that time.

[Cowardly Griffo]

A11. I'd personally rule that you recover Lay on Hands (and other limited-per-day abilities) the same time and way you recover spells: a good night's rest. I'd probably say that spells are the only thing that require any prayer or memorization time, everything else just needs sleep.

Q12. If a human takes Racial Heritage (Kitsune), do they gain the shapechanger subtype? How about if they then take Fox Shape, would they gain the subtype at that point?

[Dalebert]

A11. I'd personally rule that you recover Lay on Hands (and other limited-per-day abilities) the same time and way you recover spells: a good night's rest. I'd probably say that spells are the only thing that require any prayer or memorization time, everything else just needs sleep.

I tend to agree but it's still ambiguous. For instance, let's say someone woke up an 8am refreshed and then used their SLAs. Then they rested from Noon to 8pm. Would they have them back or is that too early? In the MiC, it's specifically stated that items with daily charges recharge at Dawn. I'm looking for something like that in the SRD with regard to this.

Q 13
How is produce flame (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/p/produce-flame) not a witch hex? Hello? Wizard of Oz! At the very least, it should be on their spell list.

"How about a little fire, scarecrow!"

[Yanisa]

The whole paladin question comes from the fact I got a paladin that doesn't sleep (lay on hands cures fatigue), and doesn't get his spells with the rest of the group (Sun god, so his prayer moment is noon). Because both the DM and the party like early morning ambushes it kinda became an issue and I had the small hope I might get lay on hands back at midnight or dawn. :smalltongue:

A12
Racial Heritage doesn't mention anything about subtypes, so that doesn't change. Even taking Fox shape wouldn't help you because

A shapechanger has the supernatural ability to assume one or more alternate forms. Many magical effects allow some kind of shapeshifting, and not every creature that can change shape has the shapechanger subtype.

A13
Unlike druids, witches don't seem to have many spells, or hexes, that relate to fire. I never understand why Druids get so many fire spells in the first place, I though only they could prevent forest fires, not start them. A wicked witch can still go for burning hands or burning gaze.

In the more specific case, hexes or save or suck spells vs one target, produce flame doesn't fit that mold. It ends up with the odd situation that you can make multiple attacks with a single hex, but only can attack each enemy once. :smalltongue:

[Dalebert]

Q 14 I was inspired by a thread about creative uses for Silent Image when I thought of something. Let's say I use an illusion to make a broken bridge look whole or to hide a pit. Now imagine I try to make it appear that I'm naturally walking across the bridge or pit using magical flight. How would you decide how convincing my act was? Would it make any difference if I specifically said I was practicing in between adventures? Would you use my fly skill? My bluff? What would that go up against in viewers? Would you say that could make the illusion more likely to be believed or is it more likely to raise suspicion due to not being done convincingly?

Q 15
In last night's game, we met a lvl 15 necromancer. I'm not certain of class but I think he may be a specialist wizard. He was able to make some scrolls for me. At one point, he merely concentrated and a battalion of skeletons and zombies marched up from fairly far away. I say they were far because we didn't see them before that point. Any idea how he would do that per RAW or is my DM just fudging him some extra weird powers? He supposedly has thousands of undead under his control. I'm not quite sure how he'd manage that either.

[grarrrg]

Q 14use an illusion to make a broken bridge look whole or to hide a pit. Now imagine I try to make it appear that I'm naturally walking across the bridge or pit using magical flight.

DM would have to decide what happens.

I'd say it'd be a Bluff check of some sort (watch some bad CG of characters 'walking', half the time it looks like they're floating and peddling their legs).
If the Bluff check was successful it should boost the Disbelieve Illusion DC. "Situational bonuses" and all that.

[Cowardly Griffo]

A 15: Theoretically he could have a spell-like ability that could summon undead, but... a whole battalion? I don't see that happening, at least not at Level 15. And thousands of undead is out of the question entirely; you just can't control that amount of undead directly. Even if he were using the Undead Leadership feat from 3.5, that'd still only get him about 150 followers at best. Barring leadership chaining shenanigans or whatever, but I've never met a GM who would actually do that when they can just fiat it.

So, theory number one: it's just a plot power. Maybe a bit much for level 15, but hey, call him an aristocrat whose serfs happen to be vitally challenged. If they're just skeletons and zombies, it's probably legit enough.

Theory number two: he's created that many undead, but he only actually controls a limited number at a time. Which is incredibly dangerous, but totally possible.

Theory number three, my personal favorite: he's actually a master illusionist who's pretending to be a master necromancer. The battalion that appeared out of nowhere? Actually appeared out of nowhere. Note that he needed to concentrate to get them to appear.

Theory number one is most likely, though. Rule zero and all that.

[Spore]

Q 15
In last night's game, we met a lvl 15 necromancer. I'm not certain of class but I think he may be a specialist wizard. He was able to make some scrolls for me. At one point, he merely concentrated and a battalion of skeletons and zombies marched up from fairly far away. I say they were far because we didn't see them before that point. Any idea how he would do that per RAW or is my DM just fudging him some extra weird powers? He supposedly has thousands of undead under his control. I'm not quite sure how he'd manage that either.


0. Most likely DM fudge. If I were a DM I wouldn't care about HOW my encounter is transported.
1. Gate spell from pocket dimension.
2. My Google-fu has shown me the way: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?154158-Small-guide-to-large-finite-Undead-Armies

(You could just create undead and stuff them into your pocket dimension. If you need them, gate them in and flee the battlefield/cast hide from undead as they will attack you indiscriminately)

[Dalebert]

Q 16
A person can forfeit a saving throw if desired, right? If an ally is casting a spell on you, presumably for your benefit, wouldn't you typically do exactly that?

So here's my stupid question. You have an undead creature under the effects of command undead (http://www.pathfindersrd.com/magic/all-spells/c/command-undead). If you tell it you're casting a beneficial spell on it, and then cast command undead in order to renew the duration, wouldn't it not save and probably also drop SR if it has it? Of course, if it had spellcraft, it would have a chance to recognize what you're casting in which case I wouldn't necessarily expect it to do so.

Then again, maybe it still wouldn't matter. It may actually be aware you cast command undead on it before, but the spell makes it friendly to you anyway (assuming save failed). Presumably, it trusts you within reason.

[Spore]

A16 First of all, yes you can drop your save. But you cannot drop your SR instantly.

Secondly this would mean a Bluff/Sense Motive check. With a hefty penalty since the creature has been controlled in the past and is most likely hostile and your lie is unlikely (-5).

Hey! Buddy! You know how I did control you in the past against your will for extended periods of time and this spell has now worn off? Let me refresh an ENTIRELY DIFFERENT spell for you. I want to heal you. Believe me!

[Dalebert]

Secondly this would mean a Bluff/Sense Motive check. With a hefty penalty since the creature has been controlled in the past and is most likely hostile and your lie is unlikely (-5).

No, I said it was still under the effect. You're renewing it before it wears off. The creature is (currently) friendly.

[Cowardly Griffo]

At the very least you'd need an opposed Charisma check, as lowering its saving throw for you is something it wouldn't ordinarily do.

And my interpretation has always been that whenever you lie, you roll bluff and the other creature gets to roll sense motive, regardless of whether they're suspicious of you or not. I wouldn't necessarily apply the penalties that Sporeegg described, at least on the first renewal, since as you quite rightly pointed out the undead is still friendly towards you–but if you fail your bluff, then they'll see through your ruse, and will refuse to submit to the obviously harmful act of allowing themselves to be enslaved by you again. You can still try it and hope they fail the saving throw, though.

[Dalebert]

At the very least you'd need an opposed Charisma check, as lowering its saving throw for you is something it wouldn't ordinarily do.

But I think it is something they would normally do for an ally which is how they currently perceive me. People choose not to resist beneficial spells from allies all the time.


And my interpretation has always been that whenever you lie, you roll bluff and the other creature gets to roll sense motive, regardless of whether they're suspicious of you or not.

That makes sense to me. It's not really relevant to the question but my character's case is weird. He's got this really elaborate mythology going. He's been deluded by his poppet into believing that undead are spirits trapped in their dead bodies for complicated reasons and being manipulated by evil forces. He thinks he's freeing them from that with his magic and giving them some of their mortal will back so they can redeem themselves and eventually their spirits will be able to move on. He's sees himself as a kind of spiritual guidance counselor to undead. He's not bluffing when he says he's casting a beneficial spell. He would describe it as "This will protect your mind from being manipulated by evil forces" and he would really believe that. So a sense motive would indicate that he's actually not bluffing.

[Segrain]

A16 First of all, yes you can drop your save. But you cannot drop your SR instantly.
Actually, (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic).

A creature can voluntarily forgo a saving throw and willingly accept a spell's result. Even a character with a special resistance to magic can suppress this quality.

[Dalebert]

Pretty sure it's a standard action to drop SR for 1 round per RAW and then it comes right back the next round. It can actually be quite a nuisance if you need spells cast on you in combat. Seems a bit ridiculous to me but there you go. Doesn't matter. Command Undead is a 1 day / lvl spell. It's not something I'd be trying to renew in the middle of combat.

EDIT: Confirmed (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/special-abilities#TOC-Spell-Resistance).

[Raven777]

Speaking of that...


A creature can voluntarily forgo a saving throw and willingly accept a spell's result. Even a character with a special resistance to magic can suppress this quality.

Would that mean that a Ghoul Barbarian could voluntarily drop his immunity to morale effects in order to get his rage bonus?

[Spore]

By RAW yes. Although a ghoul has no Int and therefore no will and thusly cannot do things "willingly".

[Dalebert]

Ghouls (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/undead/ghoul) have above average intelligence (13).

[Yanisa]

And Barbarian rage is an extraordinary ability (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/barbarian#TOC-Rage-Ex-) and doesn't fit in the line of "Even a character with a special resistance to magic can suppress this quality".

In general though immunities outside spell resistance cannot be dropped, lack of rules. Saving throws can be failed, but that still doesn't mean you will be affected by the spell (for example: a fireball vs a fire elemental for example. He can fail the saving throw to avoid the fireball, but still doesn't get fire damage).

Then again, as a DM I would never stop a player if he wants to be voluntary hit by something not beneficial. :smallamused:

[Psyren]

Would that mean that a Ghoul Barbarian could voluntarily drop his immunity to morale effects in order to get his rage bonus?

I don't see anything allowing them to do that. Their immunity to mind-affecting/morale effects is just part of their creature type.

[Dalebert]

Q 17
How do race points figure into alternative races? I can't find a LA for lizardfolk, for instance. If I'm trying to convince my DM to let me play a lizardfolk, is it relevant that they have 8 RP and (let's say) catfolk (actually listed as a playable race) have 9 RP? Does that equate to the catfolk being considered to have more racial benefits on balance?

[Cowardly Griffo]

A 17 Pathfinder doesn't really do level adjustment. It seems like the designers went to a fair amount of effort to make sure that the entire party has the same amount of XP and is consequently at the same level, hence no XP costs for spells or crafting. Likewise, there's no LA and no LA buyoff.

Instead, the Advanced Race Guide recommends that GMs scale up the CR of encounters based on the average race points of the PCs, as outlined here (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/advancedRaceGuide/raceBuilder.html). It's still a good idea to keep the PCs within a stone's throw of one another, but honestly a difference of 1 race point isn't anything to worry about. Most racial traits are minor and situational, and the ones that are broadly applicable (like at-will Alter Self and nonconditional spell resistance) are way up in the Monstrous Races bracket. For a typical game, the feats and archetypes available to a given race make much more difference than their inherent racial traits, and most everything from Paizo gets some cool stuff to play with.

[Yanisa]

A17 Addition

Core Races:

Half-Orc 8 RP
Dwarf 11 RP

I wouldn't sweat the difference between Lizardfolk and Catfolk.

Bonus points: Aasimar 15 RP, PFS legal, meaning Paizo doesn't see a single problem with a 15 RP and 8 RP in the same group without any adjustment.

Insanity Points: Noble Drow have 41 points, the old advice for Noble drow was to keep them 1 level below the party. The more up to date advice was Drow Noble was equal to a level 3 char and Drow noble have 3 RHD, so basically no level adjustment. In fact, at the average party level of 9 a drow has 8 class levels and 3 RHD... Compare that to an half-orc Joe with his 9 fighter levels..

But ignoring the odd numbers of RP that still make a legal balanced party.

Higher RP doesn't mean you have more features, it can also mean that on average your features are stronger, yet this is not always the case, sadly.

For example:
Goblins, 10 RP, have 3 racial traits.
Humans, 9 RP have 3 racial traits.
Dwarves, 11 RP have 8 racial traits.

Yet humans are the best race in the core group, and fit every build.
Dwarves are a decent middle of the road race, but fit only certain character builds.
Goblins are a horrible race and only fit very specific builds mostly tailored to the unique racial classes and feats of goblins (and maybe their high dex).

So RP doesn't say anything about the amount of traits nor the power of said traits. They do work as a general estimate, races with around 10 RP tend to be equally strong and either have big features (like humans and their feats) or a lot of small features (like dwarves). Most core races are in that 8-11 RP group, and races like Aasimar, 15 RP, tend to be called out for being strong, yet not partially game breaking (and without Blood of Angels they aren't even that flexible). So a whether a Lizardfolk has 7, RP, 8 RP, or 9 RP shouldn't matter that much, they would fit a normal core race party. It does show they are at the weaker and boring side of the RP spectrum, but race talents (except humans and their damn feats) rarely change the game.

[Dalebert]

Q 18
I came across a 4 HD kobold blood skeleton. Is that actually possible? I thought skeletons had the base HD of the creature and then whatever the template applies (which I don't think is any additional). Am I missing something?

[MrBright01]

A 18 Sure, it has base 4HD. There are the advancement rules that are applicable to all creatures, if I recall (might be wrong, I don't use the monster manual that much anymore). Or maybe the DM just really wanted a blood skeleton kobold there, but you needed a higher CR, so he fudged it.

[Psyren]

Q 17
How do race points figure into alternative races? I can't find a LA for lizardfolk, for instance. If I'm trying to convince my DM to let me play a lizardfolk, is it relevant that they have 8 RP and (let's say) catfolk (actually listed as a playable race) have 9 RP? Does that equate to the catfolk being considered to have more racial benefits on balance?

In addition to Griffo's point about PF not having LA, the core and other base races in PF have all been powered up, so the floor/baseline is much higher than in 3.5. Thus Lizardfolk and Catfolk are no longer so much stronger than, say, Elves and Half-orcs that a LA is warranted anymore.

If you really want a guideline as far as "What's the most powerful race I can have and still have LA 0?" I would say to look at something like Svirfneblin as the high end (24 RP, LA 0) and Drow Noble as an example of LA 1 (41 RP.)'

But remember that the numbers are not a hard and fast science. One of the points ARG tries to stress is that designing races, like designing monsters or spells, is as much art as science. Hard and fast rules like "LA 0 = between X and Y points" simply aren't going to work because somebody will just take those guidelines as law and break the game with them.


Q 18
I came across a 4 HD kobold blood skeleton. Is that actually possible? I thought skeletons had the base HD of the creature and then whatever the template applies (which I don't think is any additional). Am I missing something?

You (as the DM) can advance monsters by HD all you like, and those HD will stay when you apply a template like skeleton. It is only monsters as PCs that cannot advance that way.

[Ssalarn]

Worth noting that dwarves actually have a higher RP than many of the "Featured Races", so, as Psyren stated, there really isn't as big a gap between traditionally LA races and the core baseline. His example of the Svirfneblin as high end no LA and Drow Nobles as LA +1 is pretty spot on.

[Dalebert]

Q 19 Do you know of some PF creatures who fly via magic/levitation/etc. and not with wings?

[Psyren]

Q 19 Do you know of some PF creatures who fly via magic/levitation/etc. and not with wings?

Nearly everything with perfect flight does so without wings (e.g. lantern archons) so that is a place to start. You'll have to dig through the SRD if you want a full list.

[Yanisa]

A19
The problem is... its barely ever told whether fly is natural or magical.

Here is a list of creatures that have confirmed magical flight:
The Iron Archer Golem, a specif creature from a module, might not count
Red Reaver also from a module, but at least seems a species of some kind. Magical Beasts.
Sagari, aberration
Creatures of the Protean subtype (Imentesh, Keketar, Naunet and Voidworm, maybe more)
Zhyen, a kind of Genie

Here is a list of creatures I feel have magical flight: (Mostly based on lack of wings and/or perfect flight)
Air Elementals, I guess
Demiliches
Incorperal Undead, Ghost, Shadows, Wraith, Allip, Banshee, Witchfire, Clawed Kadian, and many many more, but you get the idea
Djinni, Efreeti and Janie, genies, lack wings and are pretty magical beings. (Although Djinni are like native to the air plane, Efreeti might float by hot air...?)
Wendigo, lack of wings
Some Animated Objects can fly, like the Ship in a Bottle
Most aberrations with fly often seem to fly magical, like the Flying Polyp (although that one might fly natural due its air theme), Flumphs, Ghorazagh



One could make an argument for Dragons, Fey and humanoids with wings (many of tons are outsiders, devils, demons, angels). Although they do posses wings, their body structures wouldn't work in real life to be able to fly... Its either a case of ignore real life physics or magic did it...
Even giant birds and insects make a decent argument in this case, there is a physic reason why even the biggest birds are tiny compared to the biggest mammals, reptiles or fish. Also in the same vein, many magical beast with flight often don't seem capable of flying in real life, especially ones made out of multiple animals. Griffons, Manticores and Hippogriffs.

[Dalebert]

A19
The problem is... its barely ever told whether fly is natural or magical.


I feel bad that I didn't specify it was for making bloody skeletons who can fly. I'm sure I could have saved you some effort.


Speed: A winged skeleton can't use its wings to fly. If the base creature flew magically, so can the skeleton. All other movement types are retained.

[Psyren]

And now you know why I wait for you to elaborate before I put forth a bunch of effort :smalltongue:

The easiest thing would probably be for you to post whatever creatures you're interested turning into skeletons and then ask if they "use magic to fly."

(As a general rule though - even if draconic flight may be scientifically impossible - they're probably still using their wings to do it.)

[Yanisa]

I feel bad that I didn't specify it was for making bloody skeletons who can fly. I'm sure I could have saved you some effort.
I could have known. :smalltongue:

A short filters leaves us with:

100% sure
Outsiders: Proteans (Imentesh, Keketar, Naunet and Voidworm, maybe more) and Zhyen
Aberration: Sagari
Magical Beast: Red Reaver

Lesser sure
Outsiders: Air Elementals(?), Wendigo, Djinni, Efreeti and Janie, Lantern Archons
Aberration: Flying Polyp, Flumphs, Ghorazagh

And still we have some problems, mostly fluff wise. The rules allow it all, as long as the DM allows for corpses.
Outsiders tend to meld into the plane they die and don't leave corpses, especially true for elementals. But there no real rules about it.
Aberrations have really strange physiques and its hard to imagine the skeletons of these creatures working without the flesh. But no RAW rules against it.

Regardless it is a really small list, and most of these creatures are mentioned in later Bestiaries or in Supplementary material. There might be a few more then I named, but I suspect most are as obscure like the ones I found.


(As a general rule though - even if draconic flight may be scientifically impossible - they're probably still using their wings to do it.)
Yeah, and this is mostly confirmed by dragon having mostly horrible maneuverabilities. :smalltongue: Other creatures are similar, but the animal and vermin tend to keep normal maneuverabilities, even when their bodies shouldn't allow it (Pegasus and their impossible perfect fly speed. Horses cannot fly. Even with wings). I guess most of those classify as extra-ordinary flight, which is allowed to break the scientific rules, but still is natural in nature, thus not magic.

Still it's something one could debate with a DM to be magical, especially because flying skeletons are really limited otherwise.

[meschlum]

Q 19 Do you know of some PF creatures who fly via magic/levitation/etc. and not with wings?

Nightmare Creature template. +1 CR, applicable to most things, gives lots of goodies, including Very Slow (Perfect) magical flight if it wasn't available before. Turning into a skeleton removes most of the goodies, though.

[Psyren]

The Skeletal Dragon template in Draconomicon explicitly loses its flight, for whatever that's worth.

On the other hand, plenty of skeletal dragons in other games (e.g. HOMM, Warcraft) can fly.

Isn't there a skeleton dragon in one of the adventure paths?

[Yanisa]

The Skeletal Dragon template in Draconomicon explicitly loses its flight, for whatever that's worth.

On the other hand, plenty of skeletal dragons in other games (e.g. HOMM, Warcraft) can fly.

Isn't there a skeleton dragon in one of the adventure paths?

Pathfinder has the Ravener Template (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/templates/ravener-CR-2). Which are a form of Skeletal Dragons and they still fly.

And one of the Modules indeed had a skeletal dragon (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/unique-monsters/cr-7/tar-baphon-s-dragon) and without flight, but it's pretty unique, seeing how this skeletal dragon is covered in gold. Also he has swim speed whereas the base dragon does not have it.

[Psyren]

Pathfinder has the Ravener Template (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/templates/ravener-CR-2). Which are a form of Skeletal Dragons and they still fly.

And one of the Modules indeed had a skeletal dragon (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/unique-monsters/cr-7/tar-baphon-s-dragon) and without flight, but it's pretty unique, seeing how this skeletal dragon is covered in gold. Also he has swim speed whereas the base dragon does not have it.

Raveners are intelligent though - closer to dracoliches than actual skeletons. So you can rationalize the flight as being magical in nature at that point.

[Dalebert]

It's too bad PF doesn't have laughing spheres. A friend of mine introduced them in his game inspired by the cover of The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy. I'm going to introduce them in my game as well. They're going to be a diabolical creation of Loki or his followers.

[Yanisa]

Raveners are intelligent though - closer to dracoliches than actual skeletons. So you can rationalize the flight as being magical in nature at that point.

The other skeletal dragon is also intelligent... well insane... but not mindless. :smalltongue: And he did loose fly. Its unclear whether that is due being a skeleton or being gold covered.

Regardless, I do agree, dragon flight is natural unless stated otherwise, by virtue of having wings. But it's not the best argument, nor does pathfinder have any strict rules about.

[Dalebert]

I'm pretty sure if something is already undead, I can't "kill" it and animate it as a bloody skeleton. Of course I realize the discussion has become somewhat academic at this point.

[Psyren]

I'm pretty sure if something is already undead, I can't "kill" it and animate it as a bloody skeleton. Of course I realize the discussion has become somewhat academic at this point.

We weren't saying "kill that undead dragon over there and raise it as a skeleton that can fly." We were saying "if there are other skeletal dragons in PF that can fly, that may give you a basis for the designers' intent."

[Dalebert]

Q 20 What ways are there (if any) to get access to spells not on your spell list? Will a runestaff do this or is that only for spells on your list that you don't know? What else?

[Psyren]

A20: Read this. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?296803-Pathfinder-mini-guide-Casting-spells-from-other-lists)

[Dalebert]

A 20 It later occurred to me that a regular staff is a way to get access to spells, though requiring a UMD which always has at least a 5% chance of failure. As long as one of the spells is on your list, you can recharge it so as to keep casting the spell from it at your current CL.

Q 21 What happens if you cast reincarnate on an infant? Does it come back in a young adult body?

Q 22 What sorts of wondrous items are there to help with level drain? (Blocking, restoring, etc.)

[Psyren]

A21: Most infants either don't have stats, or more likely, their Con is too low to survive the return trip. Your question has interesting applications for a wyrmling dragon however.

A22: Scarab of Protection (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/wondrous-items/r-z/scarab-of-protection) is the main one from the CRB. There are also others, like the Lifesurge (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/magic-weapons/magic-weapon-special-abilities/lifesurge) weapon property, Tribal War Paint (white) (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/wondrous-items/m-p/shoanti-war-paint), Elysian Shield (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/magic-armor/specific-magic-shields/elysian-shield), and Comfort's Cloak. (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/wondrous-items/c-d/cloak-comfort-s) Finally, there are spell-trigger or spell-completion items of spells like Death Ward or Heal. There are a number of other items and feats you can import from 3.5 as well.