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White Blade
2014-07-15, 01:02 PM
So I'm working on a setting and I'm building cultures for all the iconic D&D races that are unique(isn) but reflect the classic appeal of each race. I decided that the four "monster" races that are iconic are Goblinoids, Orcs, Drow and Kobolds. And I have a picture of my goblins, orcs, and drow that satisfies the iconic aspects (in my mind).

But what makes kobolds kobolds? Everybody loves them but I never really understood why. Could someone explain it to me?

zinycor
2014-07-15, 01:06 PM
really? I have never cared for kobolds... never met anyone who cared about them either... personally i would use duergars instead, or maybe ogres

Grim Portent
2014-07-15, 01:14 PM
I feel kobolds make the best underground minion style monster. They're the slaves of bigger and stronger things like dragons, drow and trolls but they have a knack for tunneling where directed and can swarm like goblins do on the surface.

lytokk
2014-07-15, 01:18 PM
I always viewed them as Least Dragons. Weak on their own, but deadly in groups, especially on their home turf. Since they're dragons, albeit the least version, they're much smarter than they let on. Knowledge of group tactics and how to use terrain to their advantage. Trapmakers and sorcerors by nature, they'll lead you on a chase through winding caverns slowly pecking away at your body and your sanity until you realize you're exactly back where you started, if you even get to make it that far.

Sartharina
2014-07-15, 02:00 PM
They are the bane of miners everywhere, and natural cave infestations. Unfortunately, 3e not only turned them into dragon-things (Which could have been nice to give them a 'something else' going for the underground blighters), but then WAY overplayed it, causing the 'Malevolently mischievous earth spirit' aspect (Which puts them opposite Gnomes, the 'benevolent mischievous earth spirit" race) to get overlooked completely

The_Werebear
2014-07-15, 02:20 PM
Kobolds are one of the few Lawfully aligned pest type monsters. Unlike Orcs and Goblins, Kobolds organize themselves. They plan and prepare, and have traps and contingencies. They produce and mine for themselves, making them less dependent on theft. Being the smallest and weakest physically, they make use of their intelligence, draconic heritage, and magic talent. Despite being perpetual underdogs, they thrive.

Furthermore, Kobolds are one of the few non-hive monsters who understand self sacrifice for the good of the group. Kobolds will hold a line and fight a futile defense to let the remainder of their tribe gain a defensive advantage, circle around behind enemies, or escape in a truly hopeless situation. They allow clever tactics and strategies that the typical orc or goblin could not come up with, nor that a drow would risk their own death on.

Also, this glorious piece of savagery (http://www.tuckerskobolds.com/).

TheFamilarRaven
2014-07-15, 02:20 PM
Why do (some) people like kobolds? 'Cause in general they are the underdogs of the DnD multiverse, and (most) people root for the underdogs. Why are they underdogs? Well, other than the fact they are described as a race that is pretty much bullied and looked down on by every other race. Throw in some of the worst racial stats in the game and you can quickly see why they're underdogs.

If you want to satisfy the iconic aspect of kobolds, it would be that they are the underdogs of DnD. Their appearance, their stats and their culture is all arbitrary when thinking of a kobold.

Brookshw
2014-07-15, 04:19 PM
Hate the lil' buggers, burn them, then burn them again. Mix the ashes with salt then salt the earth where they lived. And for good measure planeshift that patch of dirt to the plane of time so it'll turn to dust.

KillianHawkeye
2014-07-15, 04:47 PM
I like to picture a kobold tribe as an aggressive and ill-tempered ant hill.

Pathetically weak individually, the tribe can still be quite annoying and harmful to the surrounding lands through their natural stealthiness, persistence, and the fact that their small tunnels give them methods of movement that other races cannot easily access. Their rapid reproduction rate means that they can recover even from large losses (and their well-defended tunnels usually ensure that some of the tribe can escape an all out assault), and if the colony goes unchecked then the region is looking at a pretty bad infestation.

Maryring
2014-07-15, 04:52 PM
Pretty much this. Besides being underdog, they can easily be used for amusement or cuteness, depending on how you play them.

http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj240/TheTygre/Kobolds_zps0e852e4e.jpg

Gemini Lupus
2014-07-15, 05:15 PM
Wow, there's an awful lot of Kobold hate going around. While they're not my favorite D&D monster, they are up there. As underground dwellers, they are crafty. They make lots of traps and use hit and run tactics to lead overly confident adventurers to their deaths. As the descendants of dragons, they have a pride rivaling that of the Saiyans, but they know their strengths and weaknesses and when they do not have the advantage, they are smart enough to either retreat or surrender and don't consider it a mar on their honor or cowardly, unlike Orcs.

I like Kobolds. They are easily underestimated and you can give them a unique culture that emphasizes their strengths and justifies their weaknesses.

Me two coppers.

cobaltstarfire
2014-07-15, 05:59 PM
I like Kobolds because of Deekin, he was a pretty entertaining henchman in neverwinter nights, and I think Deekin was the first time I even became aware of kobolds.

I also rather like the way their society is built and think it's too bad that they are evil. Their entire existence from creation myth to present is to be stepped upon, so I suppose it's a good justification for their extreme distrust and hatred of the other races. But I have an appreciation for how giving they are with their own , and also how driven they are to succeed at the things that are important to them.

I also generally find most kobolds to be pretty endearing, whether they are the draconic ones of modern dnd, the dog like sorts, or the weird whiskery guys from warcraft.

LibraryOgre
2014-07-15, 07:09 PM
So I'm working on a setting and I'm building cultures for all the iconic D&D races that are unique(isn) but reflect the classic appeal of each race. I decided that the four "monster" races that are iconic are Goblinoids, Orcs, Drow and Kobolds. And I have a picture of my goblins, orcs, and drow that satisfies the iconic aspects (in my mind).

But what makes kobolds kobolds? Everybody loves them but I never really understood why. Could someone explain it to me?

Part of this comes down to edition... the 3.x Kobolds become some sort of dragon, whereas the AD&D Kobolds were more like chupacabras... scaly, dog-like creatures that lurk in the dark and kill livestock. They know they're weak and so don't try to fight on fair terms.

In some ways, I see kobolds as the humanoid mirror of gnomes. Gnomes don't try to fight fair, but they are otherwise reasonably fair. Kobolds don't fight fair, but they're EXTREMELY tribal... they don't care about the folks outside their tribe. Those outside the tribe exist to be taken advantage of. Inside the tribe, there's the evil jockeying for position, but the tribe is their unit.

Cowardly Griffo
2014-07-15, 07:31 PM
I agree with the underdog aspect that's being tossed around. But more than that, you know what makes you root for an underdog like the kobolds? They never give up.

Yes, they're weak. Weaker than pretty much any other sapient on the planet. But they don't let that stop them, because they care about their tribe and will wreck your day if you mess with that tribe. Or at least they'll try to. They'll try, down to the very last man–and woman, actually.

Actually, why don't we put that on the list, too: unlike pretty much every other stereotypically evil monster group out there, the kobolds have gender equality going for them. I can't think of a single time when gender has even been brought up with regards to kobolds. No commentary about how the dudes are stronger, no commentary about how "a strong woman in the tribe can become a leader too" like that's a surprise. Nothing. It's a non-issue.

Oh, also cutebolds. But keep safe-search on for that one, it's from 4chan. :smallcool:

kyoryu
2014-07-15, 07:44 PM
Tucker. Because Tucker.

sktarq
2014-07-15, 08:39 PM
Kobolds have a bunch of things going for them. Individually weak but they survive by playing smarter. Yes total commitment and determination may seem like a major Kobold trait, and sometimes they are played that way, but they work around problems. They use traps, they use poisons, they use hit and run, they "think" more than most opponents. Especially the other low challenge level dangerous sapient bipeds. They are the nerds who have banded together and are now trying to mess with "jock" PC's.

also their size and level of, well, spunk make them of high entertainment value.

awa
2014-07-15, 09:44 PM
Wow, there's an awful lot of Kobold hate going around.
I cant say for sure but here my opinion part of the reason for the hate at least for me is how they were changed. They use to be sadistic cowards with little mention about being particularly organized or community minded (beyond being lawful) but then they became dragon and sorcerer themed when before they were yappy rat dogs who could not be arcane caters at all. Tuckers kobolds became well known and the idea of them being god trapsters instead of low level chumps became more and more common. Also leading to dungeons where bad dms would design very unfun dungeons so they could show off how amazing their villain sue kobolds were or to try and shove baby kobod in the player face and make them feel bad by railroading them into to artificial moral dilemmas. Then on top of all that latter books started giving them powerups so they were actually a very viable race rather then a weak underdog.

Of course for me my secret hipster shame is i did the tuckers kobold thing before it was cool and now seeing it made cannon bugs me.

That said hate is a very strong word for my feelings.

Erik Vale
2014-07-15, 11:48 PM
*Reads a couple and skips*
Why kobolds?
Drow are chaotic evils suffering from backstabbing disorder, if they're lucky they may edge into NE and LE.
Orcs are NE/CE/CN rampaging marauders that lack smarts, but can be big and powerful.
Goblins are small orcs, so better for low levels, and better at the swarming.

Kobolds however, they are smart. They think. They plan. The Cooperate. They're 'Evil' because they need to be to survive in this crazy world, but really, they stick near the LN end of the pool. They're like goblins but being based around dwarves, and given a dragon paint job so that adventurers get free reign to be d*cks. There's a reason it's Tucker's kobolds, not Tucker's goblins.
Oh, and Kobolds work with Dragons. Dragons may rule a orc tribe, but that's not common, and they don't rule drow. And Goblins? Why would they bother with them, they're small orcs, use the big guys. But they use kobolds because they're smart.

----
The above is for a generic game. In my world I have orcs and goblins. Orcs are a little dim, but are mostly just shamanistic hunter gatherers that have been forced into the desert, but are fairly peaceful. Except they need this thing called food, and they breed to well, and since the humans kicked them out they want to return the favour. Goblins are slightly smarter but cowardly, and weak, and almost extinct. And Ogres are larger, dumber orcs that live alongside them.

A Tad Insane
2014-07-16, 12:26 AM
They're just shy of being brutally sadistic while still being mercilessly efficient, making them paradoxically the most reasonable evil race and the most likely (short of goblins) to torture you with their traps to make themselves feel better

Forum Explorer
2014-07-16, 12:37 AM
because their main threat is from them working together and playing it smart. In a world of high powered and deadly monsters they thrive from their intelligence and loyalty to each other. If they didn't hate everyone else they'd be pretty heroic.

inuyasha
2014-07-16, 12:46 AM
I love kobolds! I love them as angry short people who are really good miners and trapmakers. I do not however like how everyone thinks they are related to dragons, so I make that a delusion fabricated by the kobold race :smallbiggrin:

SiuiS
2014-07-16, 04:47 AM
Kobolds manifest within dungeons.

Dungeons, also, manifest within the earth.

These are known. Where the eyes of the civil folk do not fall, a ditch will become a ravine will become a cavern will become a dungeon. In the wilds, dark places grow like parasitic worms. Kobolds grow, too, manifesting from the stone. They form in pockets deep in the earth and spring out, the dwellers of the dark reaches. They are the janitorial system of the dungeons. They are the antibodies and the digestive bacteria. They clear away bones and debris. They pull treasure away from the falls. And hide it in caches deeper in the lairs of stone. They may be oppressed. They may be killed. Try may be enslaved. They may be many things, many unpleasant things. But they will always be.

There is but one exception: gnomes. Gnomes stop kobolds. Kobolds do not grow naturally near gnome settlements and under gnome supervision. When a dungeon grows near a gnomish burrough, the kobolds will actively engage in war (such that they can), to end the hateful blight that is the fey protections of the gnome clans. Even gnome statues have this effect, and many an adventurer has found a house in the wild, a cottage or tavern far from the civil reaches, with a small gnome statuette in the garden, lest the cellar doors one day open up to a labyrinth suitable for orcs and worse.

Joe the Rat
2014-07-16, 07:05 AM
That picture from the 1st ed Monster Manual. Undersized and Ugly-cute. The Pugs of the humanoid universe. That's where it gets started. They're the inversion of gnomes and halflings - the ultimate little guys, except not even the good-aligned like you. Plus they eat babies.

They're diggers and mechanics, individually weak, but dangerous in numbers. And they're organized. It's like they've got a Union, only with pit traps full of pitch and spikes and gelatinous doom instead of a lawyers. There is no joke here, move along.


I love kobolds! I love them as angry short people who are really good miners and trapmakers. I do not however like how everyone thinks they are related to dragons, so I make that a delusion fabricated by the kobold race :smallbiggrin:

As far back as 1st ed, they were pseudoreptilian egg-layers with far longer (potential) lifespans than the other humanoids. I always thought there was some sort of connection, particularly in how they tend to show up around dragon lairs. Small, irritating, makes holes in your walls that let other pests (aka adventurers) into your lair? It's more like kobolds are dragon-vermin than dragon-descendent. Common cladistics doth not bloodline make. "Oooo, I'm a mammal! I have hair and a four-chambered heart! Fear my retractable claws and sonar! What? Other mammals have these traits, so why shouldn't I?"

But yes, I rather like your take on it. In my head-canon, they've been pinning their ears back with clothespins for the last two editions to throw everyone off. Another idea I'd been toying with is that the different types of kobolds (draconic, scaly dog, dog-faced, hairy little miners with potato noses, whatever else) are due to different tribes making pacts with different entities for power/protection, and it manifests in the tribes appearance. Hence dragon-kobolds (duh, Dragons), scaly dogs with horns (Glabrezu), etc. Although maybe that last one should be Infernal (I think the Malebranche came with horns (duh) and scales), with dog-faced being the race standard...

DigoDragon
2014-07-16, 07:21 AM
Another "evil mirror of the gnome" aspect that I particularly play up is kobolds are crafty tinkerers and inventors. They're known for building complicated traps, but can also apply that knowledge to build advanced cities. Their heavy mining industry provides them with all the raw materials needed and I even play them up as intelligent enough to know that they can capitalize on their skillset by selling weapons to opposing warring nations (and once both sides have destroyed each other's army and bankrupted themselves, the kobolds can buy up their lands). :smallbiggrin:

cobaltstarfire
2014-07-16, 12:24 PM
Common cladistics doth not bloodline make.


The 3.5 fluff/legend for Kobolds is that they were born when the first dragons were taught by their creator how to use their blood to create life. First they made mates for themselves, then they made servants (kobolds).

Of course who knows how much of it is true, it's hard to tell in a world were all gods are real and stuff like that.

SiuiS
2014-07-16, 01:28 PM
The 3.5 fluff/legend for Kobolds is that they were born when the first dragons were taught by their creator how to use their blood to create life. First they made mates for themselves, then they made servants (kobolds).

Of course who knows how much of it is true, it's hard to tell in a world were all gods are real and stuff like that.

And where gods actively lie for their own agenda.

Both the fiendish codices, for example, tell stories that deny the involvement of orthodoxy in D&D. Orthodoxy meanwhile means neither codex can be true. FC 1 seems to confuse the abyss with limbo in specific ways to paint demons as less malevolent and more just a thing that happens, and FC 2 changes a lot of history for the gods and presupposes contracts and ideals that don't exist anywhere else.

Forum Explorer
2014-07-16, 04:08 PM
And where gods actively lie for their own agenda.

Both the fiendish codices, for example, tell stories that deny the involvement of orthodoxy in D&D. Orthodoxy meanwhile means neither codex can be true. FC 1 seems to confuse the abyss with limbo in specific ways to paint demons as less malevolent and more just a thing that happens, and FC 2 changes a lot of history for the gods and presupposes contracts and ideals that don't exist anywhere else.

Including Kobold propaganda. Saying they're related to the biggest, strongest, smartest, species around is way of salving their ego. Yeah they might be forced to live in crappy conditions, be weaker, and smaller then everyone else, but their related to dragons and that makes them superior.

illyahr
2014-07-17, 01:02 PM
Kobold Rogues with daggers and polearms. You are now flanked by 26 creatures, each with Sneak Attack. Give them Teamwork feats just to be mean. :smallamused:

Stellar_Magic
2014-07-17, 04:00 PM
If you looked at the old Wizards web enhancements for Kobolds... you realize that a Kobold really effectively has a NEGATIVE LEVEL ADJUSTMENT. Everyone that has said underdogs has hit the nail on the proverbial head when it comes to strength. Small with a -4 to Con and a -2 to Str with just a +2 Dex? OUCH.

Outside of Mechanics there are other rather unique factors to consider with Kobolds. Rolling back all the DnD editions to the underlying myth, I'll put it this way.

Goblins are traditionally the most mischievous form of fey.
Kobolds are the german name for goblins, and occasionally associate with the name drache (dragons/drakes).

Hence, Kobolds are German Goblins with Dragon influences. They're determined, persistent, and subtle... They mine, they cause cave ins, and so forth. However the thing that separates them from the Goblin is that they're not a group you can't possibly negotiate with. I like to throw in a curve ball when you get the typical 'Kobold bounty' quest line.

The kobolds could well try and negotiate a deal... remember, LE, not stupid. They live in a mine, I could easily see them offer up a bribe of gold or whatever they're mining.

A kobold is Lawful Evil, not due to their nature itself... but due to their place on the totem-pole. A human commoner is actually strong enough to be a danger to a kobold warrior (-4 con remember), not to mention a house-cat. They have to fight to defend their mines and homes, otherwise every CN or even pure N local group is going to kick them from their mines in a heartbeat.

When faced with the threat of surface dwelling giants (kobolds tend to be the smallest of small-sized creatures), they have to rely on their wits, traps, and numbers. The best way to characterize the kobold, I think, is to think of them as a race of underground communists waging a constant war for their own livelihoods.

Ironically, one of my first DMs put it this way. Kobolds are sentient velociraptors (before dinosaurs got feathers)... Hell, they're even the right size and shape for that. XD

Sartharina
2014-07-17, 04:14 PM
when faced with the threat of surface dwelling giants (kobolds tend to be the smallest of small-sized creatures), they have to rely on their wits, traps, and numbers. The best way to characterize the kobold, i think, is to think of them as a race of underground communists waging a constant war for their own livelihoods.

FOR THE KOBOLDARIAT! :smalltongue: Sorry, couldn't resist.

Beleriphon
2014-07-17, 09:12 PM
I'm going to owe the popularity large to Deekin, who is a very entertaining character in one of the NWN expansions. When you meet him in NWN2 he basically says he's too old for that stuff and just wants people to not kick him when he sells stupidly powerful magic items.

Eldan
2014-07-18, 06:53 AM
Kobolds manifest within dungeons.

Dungeons, also, manifest within the earth.

These are known. Where the eyes of the civil folk do not fall, a ditch will become a ravine will become a cavern will become a dungeon. In the wilds, dark places grow like parasitic worms.

Bravo. Sadly, I already have different fluff, but I think I must write a dangerous darkness/earth elemental swarm-thing now that inhabits dark places and makes them darker, larger and more dungeon-like, just for that sentence of fluff. I love the idea that places that aren't civilized become wilder and more dangerous by themselves.

Sartharina
2014-07-21, 11:34 AM
Bravo. Sadly, I already have different fluff, but I think I must write a dangerous darkness/earth elemental swarm-thing now that inhabits dark places and makes them darker, larger and more dungeon-like, just for that sentence of fluff. I love the idea that places that aren't civilized become wilder and more dangerous by themselves.It's already done. They're called Kobolds.

SiuiS
2014-07-21, 06:20 PM
It's already done. They're called Kobolds.

Indeed. This was actually an implicit part of older editions whenever they drew inspiration from three hearts and three lions; Law was the normal and civil, Chaos was the weird and otherworldly, and adventure happened at the border, at this liminal point because at this edge of one thing and another, choices could still be made to shape the world.

Wherever law held no sway, chaos did. And that's why the chaotic races – the orcs, the goblins, those few humans who forsook what it means when we say "humanity" and the demihumans who chose sensation over reason – were so alien; their world didn't require causation and law and consequence in the same way ours did.

I love the idea that civilization has entirely different physics than the wild, it adds spice back into the existence of alignment. That's what is missig nowadays; your chosen side is just your team, you're picking shirts or skins. You aren't making the metaphysical distinction between physical sciences and obfuscatory, alien mysticism anymore.




I hope the idea serves you well, Eldan.