Summoning a Black Knight Eidolon

[Duboris]

So, plain and simple, I want my summoner to essential summon a black knight equivalent that kicks a rather royal amount of ass.

Stats are as follows:

10
14
13
14
11
17

I have no idea how I'm going to go about this, and the summoner is currently only level 2, but I was mostly concerned with progression. I'm not too worried about serious optimization, mind you, but I don't wanna be the limp noodle of the party. Suggestions on progression would be greatly appreciated. The Eidolon, of course, needs to be Bipedal, although I have experiemented with the idea of making a Quadruped Centaur who was his own horse, but let's avoid that for now.

[stack]

Take martial weapon prof as a feat, too expensive as an evolution. Increase natural armor, boost strength & con, see if your dm will let you apply the reach evo to a manufactured weapon. Power attack is good but the decreased bab of the eidolon hurt it some. Are natural attacks entirely out?

[Duboris]

I do want to exclude natural attacks entirely, yes. I realize that's silly as Multi attack is usually an Eidolon's main form of DPS, but like I said, I don't want to be a severely overpowered summoner that ruins it for the others. If I wanted to do that, I'd be a synthesist, lol.

[stack]

Check Saph's guide for slugger builds, should be a good place to start. No link since I'm on my phone. Aasimar get a nice favored class bonus, might want to check it out.

[Ganorenas]

Since you are forgoing natural attacks, ask your DM if you can trade the free multi attack for weapon focus?
^ otherwise take it as a feat?

Your summoner can take Extra Evolution to give your Eidolon a few more Evo Points (I may be mid naming the feat, I seem to do that a lot with this one, upon double checking we are in the clear)

Suggested Evolutions: just based on what a humanoid black knight might have, out know what you really want =)
1 point---------------
The energy resistances are alright, especially if you upgrade them to immunity
The wording on reach seems to allow for manufactured weapons (choose an attack), so double check with your DM
Skilled on one you use regularly (+8 is a big deal)
A swim or climb speed can be quite useful if you have extra points
2 point --------------
Str/Dex/Con increases
Immunity to an element
3 point -------------
Damage reduction
Blind sense (maybe?)
Frightful Presence (usually a bad choice, since you'll often fight things with more HD than your eidolon)
4 point-------------
Fast healing (free healing, of course)
Large (if it doesn't ruin your image of course. Will give you stats where you want them and reach)
Spell resistance (it specifically says that your spells do not check for spell resistance if your eidolon has this ability, so buff away)

For other feats:
I'd suggest Toughness (eidolons don't get a lot of Hp)
^ just a filler
Power attack
Weapon focus
Dodge <- filler, unless you do a lot of maneuvering and feel you need Mobility also


There is a summoner handbook that I recall using and enjoying when I was planning out my summoner a couple months back

[stack]

Escape route is nice if you want to hang out up front with you pet. You both need it though, tactical feat.

[grarrrg]

The energy resistances are alright, especially if you upgrade them to immunity
Immunity to an element

If you encounter a certain element often, or want Resist/Immunity for thematic reasons, then go for it. Otherwise Immunity is best gotten through the Evolution Surge spells as needed.


The wording on reach seems to allow for manufactured weapons (choose an attack), so double check with your DM
If you go by the FAQ (http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fn#v5748eaic9qjz) it was "... intended to let you emulate having a dragon-eidolon, as a dragon's bite attack has greater reach than its claws."
So very much so for Natural Attacks. But it _IS_ very poorly worded, so your DM may let it slide, especially since you aren't making a Ball-o-Attacks-dolon.

Any of the 'sense' type evolutions could be good. Blind sense, tremor sense, etc...

Kinda surprised you missed Improved Natural Armor.

For 4 Evo-points you can give it Magical Flight, which can be handy (and doesn't give it actual wings like 2 Evo-Flight does).

Shadow Blend for 2 Evo-points is pretty good, giving 20% chance to be missed in all but bright light (and it combos with Shadow Form, but that has a downside, so use a Surge spell when needed).

[Ganorenas]

Stack already mentioned Improved natural armor, but I did put down everything else they mentioned, so I don't quite know why I didn't mention it...

It was definitely at the front of my mind when I was typing, so my mistake

From my experience-

Having the improved natural armor evolutions, casting Mage armor, and then getting share spell for Shield (or just casting it with the eidolon as your target and ignoring yourself) were more than enough to have my eidolon have the highest Ac in my 7th level party

[Slipperychicken]

The Eidolon, of course, needs to be Bipedal, although I have experiemented with the idea of making a Quadruped Centaur who was his own horse, but let's avoid that for now.

You could just make it so the quadrapedal Eidolon-knight appears to be riding a horse or some hideous mount like a Warg or something. You determine its appearance, after all.

[Spore]

You could just make it so the quadrapedal Eidolon-knight appears to be riding a horse or some hideous mount like a Warg or something. You determine its appearance, after all.

http://www.oocities.org/timessquare/arena/2944/centaurman.gif

[Spore]

Biped Eidolon:

2nd level
Feats: Weapon Proficiency (Falchion)
Evolutions (4): Improved Natural Armor, Reach (Falchion), Ability Increase (Str)

5th level
Feats: Weapon Proficiency (Falchion), Power Attack
Evolutions (8): Improved Natural Armor, Reach (Falchion), Flight (6 Points, Speed 50 ft)

I know Flight might be odd flavor but it increases the area your eidolon is threatening in all three dimensions. If you dislike flight, take Ability Increase Str, Dex, Con is good for powering up without providing hindering flavor

9th level
Feats: Weapon Proficiency (Falchion), Power Attack, Furious Focus, Critical Focus
Evolutions (13): Improved Natural Armor (2), Reach (Falchion), Large, Flight (6 Points, Speed 50ft)

Strength of nearly 30, good to-hit, insane armor, flight and reach of 15 ft.

I really REALLY recommend flight for your eidolon. Nothing beats charging a flying cackling wizard and splitting him in two because he didn't see you summoning your eidolon and him charging 100 ft. into the air from an insane angle.

[Duboris]

Hmm. I kind of wanted to give him a tower shield, but that's super feat heavy and preposterous. Instead of Falchion, I'm thinking Lance since his "Improved Natural Armor" can just be him growing his left hand into a "Tower shield" of sorts and taking on a more knightly appearance like a bulky, chivalrious evangalion. As much as I like the Falchion it's not so much a "Knight" weapon, really, and I prefer flavor to DPS.

That said, the lance is great for charging and bracing, so that's nice. If I do that and give him the flight, I can also take Death from Above instead of critical focus to boot, but I'll be missing out on spirited charge, more than likely.

How would I best incorporate a lance into his fight style?

[Duboris]

Also would Fast healing be a poor alternative to Flight, as I could just as easily cast fly on him by that point, couldn't I? Though I don't know what else I would give him.

[grarrrg]

Hmm. I kind of wanted to give him a tower shield, but that's super feat heavy and preposterous. Instead of Falchion, I'm thinking Lance since his "Improved Natural Armor" can just be him growing his left hand into a "Tower shield" of sorts and taking on a more knightly appearance like a bulky, chivalrious evangalion....

That said, the lance is great for charging and bracing, so that's nice. If I do that and give him the flight, I can also take Death from Above instead of critical focus to boot, but I'll be missing out on spirited charge, more than likely.

I would skip the Tower Shield regardless, using a (different) Shield may still be handy though, but prevents Two-Handing so...

As for Lance, skip it.
It only does extra charge damage when the wielder is mounted (unless you go for the "centaur" or "looks like a guy on a horse idea" and sweet-talk your DM).
That leaves it as a 1d8 x3 with Reach.
Most other Martial Polearms will beat that easily, even if we stick to "common Knight weapons":
Bec-de-Corbin or Halberd will bump up that damage to a 1d10 and give you Brace and Reach.
Bardiche is similar, but improves has better Crit Range, 1d10 19-20/x2 with Brace and Reach.
Bill has the same base stats as a Lance, but with Brace, Reach, and Disarm.
Etc...
Really outside of talking your DM into it there is nothing special about the Lance for your situation.

And since you are spending a Feat on it anyway, that means Exotic weapons are in play.
The Fauchard is the most "medieval Knight"-ish of the bunch, and offers 1d10, 18-20/x2, Reach and Trip


Also would Fast healing be a poor alternative to Flight, as I could just as easily cast fly on him by that point, couldn't I? Though I don't know what else I would give him.

Well, do you want all day Flight, and spend a couple spell slots to heal him up after combat?
Or do you want to buff with Flight at the beginning of combat, but the HP will take care of themselves?

I'd personally rather have all-day Flight, heal as needed. Flight has a lot more utility than healing does.

[Slipperychicken]

Well, do you want all day Flight, and spend a couple spell slots to heal him up after combat?
Or do you want to buff with Flight at the beginning of combat, but the HP will take care of themselves?

I'd personally rather have all-day Flight, heal as needed. Flight has a lot more utility than healing does.

Besides, your party should have healing covered anyway. If they don't, you can just buy/craft a wand of Infernal Healing (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/i/infernal-healing). It's on your spell list, so aside from alignment issues, there's little reason not to keep one around.

I wouldn't worry too much, since Summoners can act like one-man parties if they want to. Healing? Infernal Healing, and UMD'd wands. Fighting? Your Eidolon + Summons can put the Fighter out of a job. Buffs? Look at your spell list. Utility? Keep looking at your spell list. Face? Charisma is your main stat, and you get some of the social skills on your list. Other skills? Your eidolon can be built to be very good at skills which aren't Int-based.

[Spore]

If I do that and give him the flight, I can also take Death from Above instead of critical focus to boot, but I'll be missing out on spirited charge, more than likely.

With a somewhat dubious definition of "mounted" that you introduced into your opening post I wouldn't really see the eidolon qualify for being "mounted". You should really get Skill Focus (Know Nature) and Eldritch Heritage (Sylvan) and get a Horse Animal Companion at effective druid level -5 (then push it up to EDL -1 with Boon Companion).

By 6th level you'd have a Biped Eidolon:
Feats: Mounted Combat, Ride-By Attack, Spirited Charge
Evolutions: Martial Weapon Training (4) (get your Weapon Prof [Lance] later and recover these precious evo points), Ability Increase Str +4 (4), Improved Natural Armor

You're bound to the ground without spells but - assuming Str 22 with belt +2 - your Lance does 3d8+27 damage. Your main problem will be that your companion isn't eligible for Enlarge Person so you would have to stick to medium eidolon/large mount.

[grarrrg]

With a somewhat dubious definition of "mounted" that you introduced into your opening post I wouldn't really see the eidolon qualify for being "mounted". You should really get Skill Focus (Know Nature) and Eldritch Heritage (Sylvan) and get a Horse Animal Companion at effective druid level -5 (then push it up to EDL -1 with Boon Companion).

Silly Sporeegg, Animal Ally (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/animal-ally) is where it's at.
Only a -3 effective penalty (meaning Boon Companion gets you to =level), a slightly better Pre-req feat, no CHA requirement (which admittedly doesn't matter as much with a Summoner), and, finally, less rules-gray-area-ness.

[Slipperychicken]

Silly Sporeegg, Animal Ally (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/animal-ally) is where it's at.
Only a -3 effective penalty (meaning Boon Companion gets you to =level), a slightly better Pre-req feat, no CHA requirement (which admittedly doesn't matter as much with a Summoner), and, finally, less rules-gray-area-ness.

While better for our purposes (since we just want a horse), Animal Ally does give a more limited selection, though.

For other purposes, such as if a character of yours wants an exotic mount (such as a giant wasp or Roc [dat 80ft fly speed]), Eldritch Heritage can get you that.

[Arbane]

Your main problem will be that your companion isn't eligible for Enlarge Person so you would have to stick to medium eidolon/large mount.

Actually, with Share Spells, "A summoner may cast spells on his eidolon even if the spells normally do not affect creatures of the eidolon’s type (outsider)."

[Ellowryn]

Well, if you really care about fluff over crunch you could always go for the broodmaster ACF. put most of the feats/evolutions/etc on the bipedal eidolon "knight", while having the second one be the quadrapod "horse" tossing the occasional HD or evolution (flight) when needed. That way you can affect both with spells and buffs and wont cost you a bunch of feats.

[grarrrg]

get a Horse Animal Companion
...Your main problem will be that your companion isn't eligible for Enlarge Person so you would have to stick to medium eidolon/large mount.Actually, with Share Spells, "A summoner may cast spells on his eidolon even if the spells normally do not affect creatures of the eidolon’s type (outsider)."

Wrong target of spell there.
The problem is that while he can boost the Eidolon with Size-spells, he would NOT be able to affect the Mount with them. Thus Size-changing magic is off the table if he wants to stay mounted.

If, at some point, he gets a Huge Companion somehow, then he would be able to use a Large Eidolon.

[Spore]

Well, if you really care about fluff over crunch you could always go for the broodmaster ACF. put most of the feats/evolutions/etc on the bipedal eidolon "knight", while having the second one be the quadrapod "horse" tossing the occasional HD or evolution (flight) when needed. That way you can affect both with spells and buffs and wont cost you a bunch of feats.

Casting (touched creature range spells) is superior to all Broodmaster variants.

[Vortenger]

Take martial weapon prof as a feat, too expensive as an evolution. Increase natural armor, boost strength & con, see if your dm will let you apply the reach evo to a manufactured weapon. Power attack is good but the decreased bab of the eidolon hurt it some. Are natural attacks entirely out?

I've often wondered about this. Aren't all outsiders naturally proficient with martial weapons? By type?

[Spore]

I've often wondered about this. Aren't all outsiders naturally proficient with martial weapons? By type?

Only the ones they come with aka the one written in their vanilla stat block. So a Marilith would be proficient with Short Swords. Eidola sadly don't come with weapons.

[Slipperychicken]

We could just get the eidolon a regular mount if we don't want to spend too many feats for it and aren't worried about its durability. Also, couldn't the Eidolon take Animal Ally instead? It would get a lower effective level for the companion, but that could save the Summoner two feats.

Thirdly, I just realized that if both Summoner and Eidolon could take Animal Ally or Eldritch Heritage, that means you could have a level 6 Summoner walking around with 3 beatsticks (one Eidolon at 5HD. the summoner's companion at 3 HD, and the eidolon's companion at 2HD). Take Boon Companion (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/boon-companion) on both Summoner and Eidolon (total of 3 feats each), and suddenly all three minions are at full or near-full advancement (if the Eidolon's companion is keyed off the Eidolon's HD, then it's going to start lagging behind around level 10. Both would be at full advancement at level 6, making this look like a strong contender for a "P6" game). Then the Summoner can throw down mass buffs and CC, join the fray himself, or even just grab a bag of popcorn and watch the show.

[Vortenger]

Only the ones they come with aka the one written in their vanilla stat block. So a Marilith would be proficient with Short Swords. Eidola sadly don't come with weapons.

Ummm...no?


Proficient with all simple and martial weapons and any weapons mentioned in its entry. Emphasis mine. Unless I've missed a ruling elsewhere (which would not shock me). I do remember something about requiring racial hit dice, but the Eidolon grants that already. If the OP can save a feat or evolution for his knight, that's pretty substantial.

[stack]

I believe there is a specific callout for eidolon's not getting proficiency, or else the weapon prof evolutions would be pretty silly (not that it would be impossible for that to get overlooked).

Can't find it at the moment though.

[grarrrg]

Also, couldn't the Eidolon take Animal Ally instead? It would get a lower effective level for the companion, but that could save the Summoner two feats.

Same reason an Eidolon can't take Leadership, or Eldritch Heritage. All of them have a requirement of "Character level X". Eidolons are not Characters.

[Slipperychicken]

Same reason an Eidolon can't take Leadership, or Eldritch Heritage. All of them have a requirement of "Character level X". Eidolons are not Characters.

I always figured hit dice counted as levels for most purposes, as they did in 3.5. Especially since the ruling you said would have some weird implications, like monsters not benefiting from natural healing.


I did find this, however:


Monster (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/basics-ability-scores/glossary#TOC-Monster)

Monsters are creatures that rely on racial Hit Dice instead of class levels for their powers and abilities (although some possess class levels as well). PCs are usually not monsters.

[Spore]

Going to sleep instead of searching for evidence has paid off. You guys did this for me. See how proficiency is neither a "power" nor an "ability". It is a feat that removes some penalties.

[...]

Well, if you're making a black knight, make sure he can bite your legs off. #comic136ftw

[grarrrg]

I always figured hit dice counted as levels for most purposes, as they did in 3.5. Especially since the ruling you said would have some weird implications, like monsters not benefiting from natural healing.

For what it's worth, "Character level" _is_ a defined game term:
Linky (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/basics-ability-scores/glossary#TOC-Character-Level)

The total level of the character, which is the sum of all class levels held by that character.

Eidolon's do not have Class Levels, thus they do not qualify as a Character.

I will grant you that this can cause issues with "Monsters as player characters", but there's issues with those anyway.

[Slipperychicken]

For what it's worth, "Character level" _is_ a defined game term:
Linky (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/basics-ability-scores/glossary#TOC-Character-Level)


Eidolon's do not have Class Levels, thus they do not qualify as a Character.

I will grant you that this can cause issues with "Monsters as player characters", but there's issues with those anyway.

I have seen that, but I'd still consider the text I quoted ("Monsters are creatures that rely on racial Hit Dice instead of class levels for their powers and abilities") as precedent for counting monsters' racial HD as levels for the purpose of qualifying for feats and such.

[grarrrg]

I have seen that, but I'd still consider the text I quoted ("Monsters are creatures that rely on racial Hit Dice instead of class levels for their powers and abilities") as precedent for counting monsters' racial HD as levels for the purpose of qualifying for feats and such.

But an Eidolon isn't a monster either, it's a class feature :smalltongue:

[Ellowryn]

Well, technically, both "A summoner begins play with the ability to summon to his side a powerful outsider called an eidolon". I think this is another argument that can't really be settled with anything other than "Ask your DM".