a hippogriff in every garage?

[Dimers]

I'm (over)preparing for a campaign in which the PCs will have to close gates that are letting in a steady trickle of otherworldly invaders. The second story arc will have the heroes in a huge prairie setting -- flat, easy to ride on, no cover from bowfire. That means, realistically, the PCs are in real trouble against any invaders with higher movement speed and at-will ranged attacks. So they'll need fast mounts.

The setting will last for a level or two, maybe around level 13 or so. Special-order mounts are easy to work in as story rewards by this time.

What's going to make mounts workable? useful? highly valued? Does it make a better story to make them tough or fragile? Special abilities or no? All identical, each one different, somewhere in between? What special rules are going to frustrate me and the players? What can I do to throw a bone to the classes with mount-like class features, e.g. beastmaster ranger and cavalier?

I homebrew stuff all the time, so it's easy for me to translate ideas into mechanics. I just don't have much sense of which ideas are good enough to use and which would waste my time.

[NecroRebel]

There's some wondrous items in... I think the first Adventurer's Vault that turn into a creature when activated. Something like those could be useful for "reusable" mounts. That, in turn, would let you have the mounts be fragile while also making it so that your party doesn't have to corral a dozen remounts to replace ones that die in battle.

You could simply avoid using very long-range fast invaders, too. If the enemy can't actually attack from outside the melee PCs' charge range effectively, they'll still be vulnerable, though still extremely irritating.

Alternatively, monsters could just not try to attack mounts, though they should still be willing to if they have no other available targets or if they have area attacks.



Overall, it would be cooler if each player had a unique mount. Mountable class features could simply be enhanced beyond their normal - maybe they get an item that controls the winds of the prairies to make sure they always have a tailwind and so enhance their mobility? I dunno, something that boosts them up. If you mean to have a lot of combats where the mounts will be important, you should make the mounts either tough enough to last multiple combats or make them replaceable easily.

[Laserlight]

I'm (over)preparing for a campaign in which the PCs will have to close gates that are letting in a steady trickle of otherworldly invaders. The second story arc will have the heroes in a huge prairie setting -- flat, easy to ride on, no cover from bowfire. That means, realistically, the PCs are in real trouble against any invaders with higher movement speed and at-will ranged attacks. So they'll need fast mounts.

The difficulty with "I have a faster mount" vs steppe nomads is that it assumes you've only got to worry about one group of nomads and therefore have a safe direction to run to.

So they might instead (or in addition) need their own, longer ranged/more effective attacks. Or some way of generating their own cover--ice walls, for example.

[Doug Lampert]

The difficulty with "I have a faster mount" vs steppe nomads is that it assumes you've only got to worry about one group of nomads and therefore have a safe direction to run to.

So they might instead (or in addition) need their own, longer ranged/more effective attacks. Or some way of generating their own cover--ice walls, for example.
At low level my PCs learned fast that they should ALL carry a longbow. The extra shots from the wizard weren't all that useful, but even non-proficient it was better than nothing if the foe insisted in staying at range 21+ and was fast moving or flying.

This faded with level as the characters got more options and as the difference in attributes increased making hits with a non-magic weapon using a secondary attribute less and less likely and as increased damage made basic ranged attacks with a non-proficient bow increasingly irrelevant if they did hit. But if you get them into the mindset of "always have something to do at range if you can't close" then everyone will in fact find something they can do to add value to such an encounter.

Ice walls and the like being obvious possibilities as are fast mounts.

But it's their problem, let them solve it, just make it clear early that in the open you're perfectly willing to throw ranged fliers or horse-archers at them and make it THEIR problem at a point where it's still fairly trivially solvable with a few pieces of non-magic gear. Then they'll keep a solution on hand as they advance.

It's the "Surprise! This foe is going to kite you to death if you aren't specifically prepared for it" that causes problems.

[masteraleph]

It's the "Surprise! This foe is going to kite you to death if you aren't specifically prepared for it" that causes problems.

I just wanted to emphasize this- the designers of 4e intentionally made characters that operate at range weaker than characters that operate close in. That's why a ranged ranger (which should be the most ranged character ever, right?) gains a bonus if no allies are closer to the target than them, and why there's then a whole tree of feats that boost that feature. It's also why Close powers tend to do more damage than Area powers (particularly Flame Spiral, but there are other examples too). Ranged rogues don't have anywhere near the power selection of melee rogues- by way of illustration, melee rogues get an amazing minor action attack at level 3 and another at level 17, and get an attack that dazes at level 1; ranged rogues get the only minor action ranged attack in the entire game at 7, and don't get a dazing attack until 17- and then, only if they're wielding a sling.

In short, they should come up with creative solutions, but be aware that constantly requiring encounters fought at range is going to be harder for the PCs and more frustrating than melee range encounters.

[Doug Lampert]

I just wanted to emphasize this- the designers of 4e intentionally made characters that operate at range weaker than characters that operate close in. That's why a ranged ranger (which should be the most ranged character ever, right?) gains a bonus if no allies are closer to the target than them, and why there's then a whole tree of feats that boost that feature. It's also why Close powers tend to do more damage than Area powers (particularly Flame Spiral, but there are other examples too). Ranged rogues don't have anywhere near the power selection of melee rogues- by way of illustration, melee rogues get an amazing minor action attack at level 3 and another at level 17, and get an attack that dazes at level 1; ranged rogues get the only minor action ranged attack in the entire game at 7, and don't get a dazing attack until 17- and then, only if they're wielding a sling.

In short, they should come up with creative solutions, but be aware that constantly requiring encounters fought at range is going to be harder for the PCs and more frustrating than melee range encounters.

I'll add, ranged fliers or horse archer types need to be outgunned vs. most parties. Maybe half the typical XP budget, because the party is likely to be at seriously reduced effectiveness.

And they should be artillery that's relatively weak in melee, because that way getting into melee with them has a reward. And they probably shouldn't fight to the death, the entire style cries out for disengaging if bloodied.

A party of 5 fighting 4 artillery of 1 level lower will find that the low HP, defenses, and slightly weaker attacks of the artillery and their tendency to run away and their inability to take a PC down with a single volley combines to mean that the party can win, but has a tough fight. The low damage needed to win and the fact that the foes will run away if plainly losing keeps it surprisingly quick to resolve. This can be a fun fight every now and then.

WARNING: be very very careful with fast, long ranged minions. If you can't hit them, 1 HP is as good as infinity. If only the ranger can hit them, and that with his secondary weapon, then the minions simply won't be killed at the expected rate. With Errata at paragon 5 minions replace 1 standard, and do about 2.5x as much damage. Replace my 4 artillery 1 level lower with 20 minions and the nominally same challenge minions will slaughter the party. Just stay out of range of the area attacks or stay spread out and shoot one PC to death each round...

Edited to add: Or you can limit the foe's range to 5, 10, or 15 squares. Almost every class can do something at that range but it still has some of the flavor of a ranged battle. Note that even this won't save you if you never use ranged attackers that stay at range till paragon. This needs to be brought up in Heroic where it can be dealt with.

[Tegu8788]

The ideas about having them skirmish sounds good, but if this is a bad guys coming in and chasing down players, they might not be so willing to fall back. So, I have two ideas.

One, if you need a long range prairie style running fights, make it a skill challenge. Keeping track of move speeds and ranges when everyone is constantly moving in one direction can be complex, so make it theory of the mind. Athletics to make a hard run, Acrobatics to sit backwards and fire that bow, Arcana to summon temporary roadblocks for enemies, Nature to unlock the animal's potential...

Second, well, occasionally, the enemy does a pincer maneuver. At some point, they are going to need to come in close to actually apprehend the party. Melee time! Or if there is some manner of enemy vessel, have it launch a catapult full of melee-ers into their midst. It can be scary, watching this burning rock smash into the ground ahead of them "We are in their range!" Then as they run past it, not worrying about the missed shot, it bursts open, and a swarm of baddies pop out.


Well, a third, not really fleshed out. Consider Star Wars. TIE Fighters, tons of them, weak damage, no shields, but fast. X-Wings, solid speed, massive damage output, good shields, and move in pairs or quads. But both have roughly equal range. Sure, you can take plenty of shots that will go past your target, but actually hitting them is real hard. Drop a bunch of dice, make them sweat, then when all but one or two miss, the sigh of relief will be palpable.

[Dimers]

There's some wondrous items in... I think the first Adventurer's Vault that turn into a creature when activated. Something like those could be useful for "reusable" mounts. ... If you mean to have a lot of combats where the mounts will be important, you should make the mounts either tough enough to last multiple combats or make them replaceable easily.

I may be missing something because I don't have the source in dead-tree format, but the DDI writeups of those AV creatures look very fragile. Reuseable is a good alternative to Big Piles Of Hitpoints, though! So if I decide I need to homebrew something, I should work on a reusable item/feature with more durability than an AV critter but less than a beast companion. The reusability could be limited by surges, money, time, total quantity ...


You could simply avoid using very long-range fast invaders, too.

Well, sure, but I thought this would provide an interesting change in the tactical situation, a place where different builds and abilities could shine. The first story arc is mostly in woodlands with cover everywhere and the big sidequest during this arc is in cramped, twisty tunnels. Open plains really changes things ... makes the world come alive a little more to have that difference.


If the enemy can't actually attack from outside the melee PCs' charge range effectively, they'll still be vulnerable, though still extremely irritating.

Constantly requiring encounters fought at range is going to be harder for the PCs and more frustrating than melee range encounters.

Hmm. Want to avoid "irritating" and "frustrating". Notes to self: ask players for feedback after the first or second skirmish; prep plentiful combats that aren't this. Masteraleph, good point about the tendency existing at the heart of the system.


Overall, it would be cooler if each player had a unique mount.

Yup. They could have different speeds, extra movement modes, defensive abilities, charge-boosters, maybe immediates they can use when attacked ... some of them might even have melee attacks themselves. And oh-the-possibilities for an artificer's special mount!


The difficulty with "I have a faster mount" vs steppe nomads is that it assumes you've only got to worry about one group of nomads and therefore have a safe direction to run to. So they might instead (or in addition) need their own, longer ranged/more effective attacks.

Sorry, didn't mean to imply they only need faster mounts :smallwink: It's ... um, how did that guy put it ... "necessary but not sufficient". No, you're right, this is definitely not just a comparison of movement speeds between two groups. I intend to have multiple groups of enemies nearby enough to be strategically important, whether the PCs are running away, chasing or just skirmishing.


Or some way of generating their own cover--ice walls, for example.

I hadn't even considered walls, honestly. Control-oriented powers are really going to shine during this arc, if the controller gets close enough to use them. Oh, hey, there's another idea -- something that can increase range of powers! If you can suddenly drop a wall right in front of an enemy's face as he's zooming away ... *crunchsplat*


At low level my PCs learned fast that they should ALL carry a longbow. The extra shots from the wizard weren't all that useful, but even non-proficient it was better than nothing if the foe insisted in staying at range 21+ and was fast moving or flying.

My vague plan was to give the enemies pretty good attacks within 10 squares or so and taunting stings out to about 40 squares. If all the PCs have longbows, that's about equivalent.


It's their problem, let them solve it, just make it clear early that in the open you're perfectly willing to throw ranged fliers or horse-archers at them and make it THEIR problem at a point where it's still fairly trivially solvable with a few pieces of non-magic gear. Then they'll keep a solution on hand as they advance. It's the "Surprise! This foe is going to kite you to death if you aren't specifically prepared for it" that causes problems.

I completely agree that I shouldn't spring it on them suddenly. They'll have plentiful warning as to the terrain and the baddies' capabilities, both IC and OOC, and they'll be allowed extra retraining accordingly. But if their solution is to get themselves excellent mounts ... :smallwink: Part of the reason I thought of mounts first is that the party will have a lot of NPCs wanting to give them stuff so they can do their jobs better, including (probably) a person with magical talent for breeding animals, a person they will (probably) save in the first arc. It'd be a shame not to use that connection later in the story.


And they should be artillery that's relatively weak in melee, because that way getting into melee with them has a reward.

I've assuming that getting into close-combat range will be impossible without faster mounts, but I suppose there are ways. Stealth is one -- I don't need to give all the monsters great perception. Anything else you can think of? Scry-and-die doesn't have viable mechanics in 4e so far as I'm aware, and frankly, I wouldn't like the implications for the 'home team' if it did.


If you need a long range prairie style running fight, make it a skill challenge.

I do want to encourage skill use. Don't really use skill challenges per se, but maybe this should be an exception. Should also look into what mount- and ranged-related rituals already exist, maybe brew up some revelant skill powers. What would this be like as a challenge that represents one encounter? What about if it represented a few days of maneuvering?


Second, well, occasionally, the enemy does a pincer maneuver. At some point, they are going to need to come in close to actually apprehend the party. Melee time! Or if there is some manner of enemy vessel, have it launch a catapult full of melee-ers into their midst. It can be scary, watching this burning rock smash into the ground ahead of them "We are in their range!" Then as they run past it, not worrying about the missed shot, it bursts open, and a swarm of baddies pop out.

Heehee. :smalltongue: Yup, I could use stealth or other tactics to put meleers right up in the party's face at some point, probably to their relief. The burning rock smashing into the ground brings up another idea for me, too -- because that's the calling card of the third party in this three-way war! Another way to get a group into melee range is via that third force, or maybe another independent group of commandos as rivals to the PCs. I can just see it ... the two hero parties wipe out the demons and immediately start accusing each other of killstealing ... :smallbiggrin:

[Laserlight]

I hadn't even considered walls, honestly. Control-oriented powers are really going to shine during this arc, if the controller gets close enough to use them.

Or let them find walls. Is this plain inhabited, or was it ever inhabited? If so, there are likely to be buildings or ruins--something like the Wupatki ruins, for instance. Which will be visible from quite a distance, across the plains. Give the party something to head towards. The baddies won't be able to attack effectively without getting up close and personal.

After one or two unsuccessful attacks, the enemy might wait for nightfall when they can creep up closer to the walls before the next assault. The party might be stuck there, beseiged for a while. This is an opportunity for roleplay.
"While you wait for the next attack, you tell each other tales of your exploits, your families, your enemies. Everyone, draw a card. Hearts? Tell about your family or a romance. Spades? Who is, or was, an enemy of yours, and what happened? Clubs? A tale of your travels, the amazing places you've seen. Diamonds? What is your goal, your dream, your quest?"

[Dimers]

I'd like to thank everyone who's contributed so far. :smallsmile:

In addition to BUMP :smallamused: I have one more related question to ask: Does anyone know of a free game system with good rules for chase scenes? I may be able to adapt such a thing to work with 4e rules, or at least get some inspiration for what's involved.

[Tegu8788]

White Wolf had an interesting mechanic. It's a d10 success based system, but you could set a DC for an athletics check or some such. Basically, if you got the number of successes equal to the target's speed, you caught it. Not perfect, but it was fun.

[Dimers]

White Wolf had an interesting mechanic. It's a d10 success based system, but you could set a DC for an athletics check or some such. Basically, if you got the number of successes equal to the target's speed, you caught it. Not perfect, but it was fun.

Oh? Is this nWoD, oWoD or something else? I don't recall that from the few books I own.

[Tegu8788]

The new one. I played Changeling, but I think it was a basic rule. I never actually saw the rulebook, just what I needed to build a character.

[Laserlight]

I have one more related question to ask: Does anyone know of a free game system with good rules for chase scenes? I may be able to adapt such a thing to work with 4e rules, or at least get some inspiration for what's involved.

Ranges would be something like: Contact (Melee), Short Range Missile Fire, Long Range, Extreme Range, In Sight, Distant, Out of Sight. Make it a straight opposed roll--each side rolls a D20 plus modifiers, and whoever gets the higher total can open or close the range by one band. You can add "Risk" to increase your chance of winning the roll, but the more risk you have, the more likely you are to have a disaster--which might be as mild as "penalty to all attacks" or "penalty for your next Chase roll", or as bad as "your riding beast tumbles and breaks his neck, and you take Fall damage".

Whatever you do, give the party a choice to make-- Fast/Risky vs Slow/Safe--and consequences for failing. If they're not making meaningful choices, then there's no reason to roll, just narrate it.