Mach 4 and +1,200 to hit

[Immabozo]

So, I was going to post in a speed related thread, but realized my post was exceedingly unhelpful, so I started a thread of my own.

So here is a quote from here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?327689-Movement-at-mach-1-5) that is a previous post I made on this topic.


So, I know part of this idea is controversial to some of you, but I stand by it.

So we take a cheetah, slap the Paragon and mage bred. Since this cheetah falls under the very broad generalization of any carnivore (cause even unique creatures fall into the category of "any") now we use it as a basis for a lycanthrope.

Now the tycanthrope can never, by RAW, take the templated form of his animal half.

BUT, if this is an afflicted lycanthrope, after taking a bunch of damage, is FORCED to make a control shape check to not be forced into animal form. Voluntarily fail this save, and then you are this beast.

Level 1 of monk and level 1 of barbarian also give +10ft movement each. I am unsure if they would affect you outside your normal form, but they are class abilities and not a base speed. So I would think they would.

So, base speed of a cheetah is 50 ft, + 10ft from magebred, + 10 from Barbarian, +10 from monk, x3 from paragon, x10 from cheetah, x4 from the run action. So the speed you reach is 2400, and 9,600 from the run action.

At 1,126 feet per second, sound travels 6,756 feet in a 6 second round. You are now traveling at mach 1.5!

Granted, a cheetah, by RAW, only the speed increase when making a charge. But, still, it's a silly idea.

A giant squid can jet at 340 feet, not sure if that is eligible for the same shennigans though, cause it is a "full round action" to move 340 feet.

And please dont take this as anything other than a silly idea.

I have a few additions that I thought would be a good addition.

So, Shadow template has this little line "Dark creatures encountered away from the Plane of Shadow have the extraplanar subtype." which insinuates the on the plane of shadow, they dont, meaning the animal retains it's original and unchanged type. So that is +10 ft movement.

Quick trait is +10 feet.

Speed of thought gives +10 feet movement while psionically focused and is eligible to be taken multiple times. 2 flaws + level 1 (lets leave room for feats to make the build viable) + 30 while psionically focused.

rapid wrath is a spear that doubles speed for those who carry it. (not wield it)

Collar of Umbral Metamorphosis, item, grants 10 ft movement

So, base speed of a cheetah is 50 ft, + 10ft from magebred + 10 from Shadow template + 10 quick trait x 3 from paragon (all the inherited templates and traits first) + 10 from Barbarian, + 10 from monk + 10 from Collar of Umbral metamorphosis + 30 from Speed of thought x 2 from Rapid Wrath x 10 from cheetah x 4 from the run action. So the speed you reach is 6000, and the run action brings us up to 24,000. We reach a whopping just barely under mach 4.


If you can become a Lawful Evil Devil, Mark of Minauros from Fiendish Codex II gives +2 to charge attack rolls for every 10 feet you charge.

So, on a charge, we can move up to double our base land speed, which is 12,000, giving us a +1,200 to hit.

Now, I am lost as to where to go from there, at least so far. But mach 4 and a +1,200 to-hit is certainly a start. Any suggestions on where the build can go from here?

[Pan151]

Do note that, in 3.5, multipliers stack additively, not multiplicatively. So your max speed would be 80 ft x 17 = 1360 ft, if my math is not off.

PS. Also, cheetah's ability is 10x its normal speed (so, flat 500 feet, no modifiers, no multipliers). Which would mean that the above calculations are kinda meaningless. Not to mention that you can't run and charge at the same time (both are full round actions).

So, in truth, 500 feet is the best you can do.

[FreakyCheeseMan]

Ah, here we have a perfect example of the common "Parade/Rain" model of GitP thread. :P

[Divide by Zero]

Do note that, in 3.5, multipliers stack additively, not multiplicatively. So your max speed would be 80 ft x 17 = 1360 ft, if my math is not off.

I was under the impression that multipliers stacked additively for abstract things like damage, but multiplicatively for "real" things like speed.

[Pinkie Pyro]

Do note that, in 3.5, multipliers stack additively, not multiplicatively. So your max speed would be 80 ft x 17 = 1360 ft, if my math is not off.

PS. Also, cheetah's ability is 10x its normal speed (so, flat 500 feet, no modifiers, no multipliers). Which would mean that the above calculations are kinda meaningless. Not to mention that you can't run and charge at the same time (both are full round actions).

So, in truth, 500 feet is the best you can do.

Except in the case of distance, actually, so this totally works.

though I prefer the "bladedancer 10 dragonspawn with run and the spell fly like an arrow." build.

final fly speed = base land speed X 900

[Divide by Zero]

Ah yes, here we go: (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/theBasics.htm#multiplying)

When applying multipliers to real-world values (such as weight or distance), normal rules of math apply instead. A creature whose size doubles (thus multiplying its weight by 8) and then is turned to stone (which would multiply its weight by a factor of roughly 3) now weighs about 24 times normal, not 10 times normal. Similarly, a blinded creature attempting to negotiate difficult terrain would count each square as 4 squares (doubling the cost twice, for a total multiplier of ×4), rather than as 3 squares (adding 100% twice).

[Pan151]

Except in the case of distance, actually, so this totally works.


Even if it does work like that for movement speed, the charge speed of a cheetah is still 500 feet flat, at least with all the modifiers presented by the OP.

[Immabozo]

Do note that, in 3.5, multipliers stack additively, not multiplicatively. So your max speed would be 80 ft x 17 = 1360 ft, if my math is not off.

PS. Also, cheetah's ability is 10x its normal speed (so, flat 500 feet, no modifiers, no multipliers). Which would mean that the above calculations are kinda meaningless. Not to mention that you can't run and charge at the same time (both are full round actions).

So, in truth, 500 feet is the best you can do.

I disagree. If they meant 500, they would say 500, not x10.

EDIT, also, this build is not counting the run action and charge in the same calculations.

[Pan151]

I disagree. If they meant 500, they would say 500, not x10.


They did say 500.


Sprint (Ex): Once per hour, a cheetah can move ten times its normal speed (500 feet) when it makes a charge.

Emphasis mine.

[SiuiS]

Even if it does work like that for movement speed, the charge speed of a cheetah is still 500 feet flat, at least with all the modifiers presented by the OP.

Unless some of the other additions increase normal speed. Monk and barbarian and items wouldn't, but paragon would.

Ahaha, preemptively countered~!

[Immabozo]

Unless some of the other additions increase normal speed. Monk and barbarian and items wouldn't, but paragon would.

Ahaha, preemptively countered~!

I was thinking similar. But at least I corrected the Paragon no longer multiplying barb and monk speed!

[Pan151]

Unless some of the other additions increase normal speed. Monk and barbarian and items wouldn't, but paragon would.

Depends if you consider the ability as giving 10x normal speed or flat 500 feet (it mentions both).

[Immabozo]

Depends if you consider the ability as giving 10x normal speed or flat 500 feet (it mentions both).

I would think we are both right in a way. I put the multiplication is the wrong spot in the calculations. Perhaps the feats, class levels and items would not count, but inherited templates would.

[Pan151]

Just to be clear, I would personally rule that it does infact grant 10x normal speed, instead of a flat 500 feet, so as to avoid the situation where the creature's regular run speed is faster than its charge speed.

Plus, I have made a couple calculation errors of my own, which I can't really be bothered to go back and fix, so please disregard any actual numbers I have posted in this thread.

[Darrin]

If you add Wild Shape (Druid 5, Wild Shape Ranger 5, Divine Minion), you can take the Cheetah's Speed feat (Complete Divine). This lets you use wild shape to change your base speed to 50, and gives you the x10 multiplier on a charge once per hour.

This post (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=15535646&postcount=34) mentions some other speed buffs that might help.

[PraxisVetli]

Can someone explain where having a 12,000 speed grants +1200 to hit?
I've never heard anything like that.

[Talya]

In all those calculations, I lost track of what the base speed would be (for a single move action), listed on the character sheet.

Mostly because I want to calculate the basic jump modifier (base speed modifies jump checks by +4 per 10 feet in excess of speed 30, even if you are standing still) and then look for abuses using Tiger Claw discipline.

[Immabozo]

Can someone explain where having a 12,000 speed grants +1200 to hit?
I've never heard anything like that.

Mark of Minauros from Fiendish Codex II gives +2 to charge attack rolls for every 10 feet you charge. I think you have to be a lawful evil devil, or something


In all those calculations, I lost track of what the base speed would be (for a single move action), listed on the character sheet.

Mostly because I want to calculate the basic jump modifier (base speed modifies jump checks by +4 per 10 feet in excess of speed 30, even if you are standing still) and then look for abuses using Tiger Claw discipline.

The "movement" on the character sheet would be a little under 6,000 (I have a multiplication in the wrong place, as pointed out above, haven't had the time to fix it yet) so if you are correct, that is approximately 570 x 4 for a +2280 jump check. I am relatively unfamiliar with ToB maneuvers, please do explain!

[Talya]

Each of the nine disciplines in Tome of Battle has an associated skill. Not all maneuvers directly use the skill, but when a maneuver calls for a skill check, it invokes that associated skill. As an example, in the Diamond Mind school (associated skill: Concentration), some of the maneuvers allow you to substitute a concentration check in place of a saving throw, or in place of a damage roll with your weapon.

I'm drawing a blank (and away from the books at present) what Tiger Claw maneuvers do with their associated skill, but that skill is Jump. Off the top of my head, I'm unaware of any TC maneuver that uses a jump check directly to determine damage or save DC, but one of the maneuvers lets you move as a swift action up to a distance decided by a jump check. (Which, incidentally, would provide a boost to your speed here, as you can then proceed to take a run action afterward.)

Edit: So the only really abusable maneuvers with this are Sudden Leap and Swooping Dragon Strike. The former would let you move between 225 and 230 feet as a swift action when used, the latter would, in addition to +10d6 damage on a strike, stun your target with a Fort save DC in excess of 2280.

[Optimator]

Do note that, in 3.5, multipliers stack additively, not multiplicatively.
Not always. That's the rule for damage.

[Renen]

Reading the OP: Did you count collar of umbral Meta, and Dark tepmplate as 2 separate sources?

Also, if you charge at 12,000 and then divide that by 10 (because +2 per 10ft) you DO get 1200. But shouldnt you... oh i dont know... multiply that by 2?

[DarkSonic1337]

I believe he counted the Shadow Template and the Collar (which provides the Dark template), not two Dark templates.

[Psyren]

Ah, here we have a perfect example of the common "Parade/Rain" model of GitP thread. :P

Welcome to the Internet, please enjoy your stay.

[Immabozo]

Reading the OP: Did you count collar of umbral Meta, and Dark tepmplate as 2 separate sources?

Also, if you charge at 12,000 and then divide that by 10 (because +2 per 10ft) you DO get 1200. But shouldnt you... oh i dont know... multiply that by 2?

I believe Umbral meta can give +10 ft movement instead of the shadow template. Am I wrong? So shadow template giving +10 ft movement because of the template, Umbral just gives a flat 10 ft movement.

AH, I see on the +to hit you mean, right? You are correct.

[Zaq]

I have the XPH open right now, and I don't see anything about Speed of Thought being eligible for being taken multiple times. I'm looking at page 51. Where are you looking?

[Immabozo]

I have the XPH open right now, and I don't see anything about Speed of Thought being eligible for being taken multiple times. I'm looking at page 51. Where are you looking?

I apologize for the on-line link, but my books are unavailable. Here (http://dndtools.eu/feats/psionics-handbook-30--46/speed-of-thought--2690/) And I believe it is in CPsi, not XPH. It can also be found in the Speed Handbook (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=13532.0)

[Amphetryon]

I apologize for the on-line link, but my books are unavailable. Here (http://dndtools.eu/feats/psionics-handbook-30--46/speed-of-thought--2690/) And I believe it is in CPsi, not XPH. It can also be found in the Speed Handbook (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=13532.0)

That link directs to the 3.0 Psionics Handbook; it would appear the power received an update for 3.5. As such, the 3.0 version of the ability will often be an unavailable option.

[Immabozo]

That link directs to the 3.0 Psionics Handbook; it would appear the power received an update for 3.5. As such, the 3.0 version of the ability will often be an unavailable option.

When did I link a 3.0 handbook?

[Amphetryon]

When did I link a 3.0 handbook?

The hypertext link "here" in my quote of your text goes to a link of the Psionics Handbook, a 3.0 product, rather than the Expanded Psionics Handbook, a 3.5 product that made significant changes to how psionics worked. Hovering over the hypertext link will clearly demonstrate this, as will the text at the top of the page once you follow your link.

[Immabozo]

The hypertext link "here" in my quote of your text goes to a link of the Psionics Handbook, a 3.0 product, rather than the Expanded Psionics Handbook, a 3.5 product that made significant changes to how psionics worked. Hovering over the hypertext link will clearly demonstrate this, as will the text at the top of the page once you follow your link.

Interesting, thank you for the heads up. I never noticed. But I do believe that the CPsi has the update to re-allow taking the feat multiple times

[Amphetryon]

Interesting, thank you for the heads up. I never noticed. But I do believe that the CPsi has the update to re-allow taking the feat multiple times

I am unable to locate the feat 'Speed of Thought' in Complete Psionics. Could someone give a page number, please?

[Vaz]

It's not in CPsi.

[Immabozo]

It's not in CPsi.

Then I guys I am wrong. Contrary to popular belief, I am not infallible.