Looking for story seeds, distilled fictions.

[SiuiS]

A request, ladies and gentleman and goats and such. I am looking for snippets, ideas on how to tell simple children's stories. Stories of knights rescuing damsels, dragons capturing princesses, heroes being sent out on a quest and coming back to find the evil mayor's son has fortified the city and wed the heroes' betrothed. BUT. I want this to be subtle, subversive. Like, first three stories feed into princess culture bias, fourth smashes it and asks "did you really think that was how everything was, always?", or the hero going into a rage and vanquishing his foe and being taken to task for resorting to violence, leaving and being angry and trying to come to toerms with their dissappointment, sometimes failing.

I want to write short and sweet, but sweeping, fairy tales. I want to write them as human as I can, however, without necessarily neat endings or entirely simple morality. I want to read these mythic tales to children and have them go away thinking about whether the hero really was the hero, and whether faltering could make someone less of a hero. Hell, less of a man. Is manliness inherent, or given by society? Does it matter, in the end? Etc.

I want to tackle difficult questions founded in social awareness and emotional intelligence through what will read like well-composed short story campaign logs from RPGs. And for that, I will need to actually get ahold of story seeds, the basic components and how they work and why they work. Like, the hero's journey, what is that? Why is that? How does it work when people get the pattern right but not the purpose?

Can you break down all of literature for me, ladies and gentlemen? Can you roll the rock of Sisyphus? You may not succeed, but is it not valuable, sometimes, just to try?

[thubby]

all stories depend on characters. without people we care about, all the grand ideas in the world are for naught.

[Saph]

Can you break down all of literature for me, ladies and gentlemen? Can you roll the rock of Sisyphus? You may not succeed, but is it not valuable, sometimes, just to try?

Generally speaking, the way you write good literature is by putting the story first. Deliberately trying be subversive usually doesn't make for a good story. (If you write honestly and well, the result may very well be subversive by some people's standards, but that's not the same thing.)

[SiuiS]

all stories depend on characters. without people we care about, all the grand ideas in the world are for naught.

That can be tailored. You will get different stories by saying "I want to write more Marchande" and "I want to write about a moral issue". Both are valid. I am not looking for the first. Not yet. Not here. When I get details for characters it will be in a more intimate setting, because religion will be a thing. So will politics.


Generally speaking, the way you write good literature is by putting the story first. Deliberately trying be subversive usually doesn't make for a good story. (If you write honestly and well, the result may very well be subversive by some people's standards, but that's not the same thing.)

I felt the need for brevity. I don't want to set out to write a story of subversion, necessarily. I want to write a story that feels true to the morals I hold. Many stories have that. Too many. I cannot break it down timely enough on my own.

So that's why I went with the examples I did; I will accept a breakdown of "knight frees captured princess, gets married, happy ever after". But I will not limit it there. This is not apophatic. I will also accept "knight has backstory about blablabla dragons princess marriage. Knight has to navigate a relationship where it's not as easy as murder giant reptile problem", and also "knight saves process from dragon. Knight is not interested in princess, must politely decline" and "knight is interested but princess is a lesbian. Knight has to grapple with entitlement issues".

I am afraid that I will have to ask for components, and just have you trust that I can inject 'good' into the literature myself.

[Aotrs Commander]

Well, you could always mix it up a bit and have dragon rescue knight from princess for a change. Or something...

[Saph]

Okay, several points here.

First, you're late to the party on the fairy-tale thing. Everyone and their dog has done a parody/retelling of the classic fairy tales, so you aren't doing anything new by "subverting" them. It's also worth noting that "knight saves princess" is what's referred to as a dead unicorn trope – people believe that it was some ever-present tale, when the truth is that it was never particularly common in the first place. Honestly, I've read so many retellings of "knight saves princess, but with a twist" that when I read yet another, I'm genuinely more surprised when there ISN'T a twist.

Second, when it comes to stories, seeds and components aren't typically all that useful. A common thing that professional writers will tell you is that ideas are cheap – sure, they can come up with them, but they aren't worth anything. It's the execution and development of the idea that's the hard part. If you just want story seeds, then all you have to do is go to TVTropes. You'll get more seeds than you know what to do with, but I don't recommend it for direct inspiration.

Third, writing simple children's stories, and doing it well, is hard. Much harder than writing non-simple fiction for adults. This goes double if you're trying to include morals. Simple children's stories that are also designed to endorse a particular set of morals usually end up being preachy and trite. If you look at the really good children's stories, they often have quite complex morals that don't lend themselves to easy lessons.

[Aotrs Commander]

I was particularly thinking that (as a high concept idea) it's just about time someone did an evil princess for a change, really: that's not an idea that's been done to death yet, especially in popular culture where "Princess" (thanks to Disney, largely, but aided and abetted by lots of others) has become synonemous with "good" and "queen" is a perjurative.



Also, to slightly rebutt thubby's point, you CAN write excellent stories without characters (save in the very broad sense of "characters" as "things that the story is about"). My favourite book of all time has maybe three or four people named in it in passing and was the single greatest corruption influence on me, probably of any source.

Granted, such stories are probably not the sort of thing you can aim at young (or older and comparitvely normal) children, but the point remains.



Though I think SiuiS, you are at the stage you need to ask questions of yourself about what EXACTLY it is you want do to. It sounds to me as though you have some sort of vague idea of what you want to do, but not enough specifics. It's alrigth having ahigh-end concept idea like "dragon rescues knight from princess" as subversion of the usual, but the details are the important point. It's like writing rules - you can't just start on the mechanics (because that gives you sucky rules: see the majority of wargames because people think rules are just mechanics). You have to decide "in this basic circumstance, what is the modal result I want to happen" first.

I mean, that idea of "dragon rescues knight from princess" could be something as simple as a My Little Pony fanfic wherein Spike the Dragon has to "rescue" Shining Armor from the clutches of his wife and her make-over session so they can sneak out to watch the Wonderbolts or something or a rather more serious approach in which a dragon hears the tale of a wicked Princess who has ensorcelled a kingdom's favored knight and sets out to save him/her because it's the right thing to do. Or something entirely different, like I might write for my nascent Andorlaine completely alien campaign world, wherein "dragon", "knight" and "princess" are almost unreconisable in execution from traditional tropes because of the alienness. But it's that sort of thing you need to start thinking about - even as just a test example - before you can really start anything.

As I have often found in unlife, sometimes there's no substitute for actually sitting down and trying to DO something to find out exactly what it is you don't know about the problem you're trying to solve.



Something else to consider was what David Eddings said; that before you were prepared to be a published author (if that is your intent), write a million words, and chunk 'em away, because then you'll be about ready to write. (Saph, you're, as I understand it, the professional here, that sound illustratively the right sort of idea?)

[Saph]

Something else to consider was what David Eddings said; that before you were prepared to be a published author (if that is your intent), write a million words, and chunk 'em away, because then you'll be about ready to write. (Saph, you're, as I understand it, the professional here, that sound illustratively the right sort of idea?)

Basically, yeah. Probably better off measuring it in hours rather than words (since it's really time spent that's the important metric) but the principle's right. Though it's absolutely fine just to write for the sake of enjoyment/self-expression rather than with any expectation of being published, and you'll probably have more fun that way, too.

[The_Snark]

I am a non-writer, but my advice - drawn from my considerable experience of not writing anything - is that the first and most essential step to telling a good story is to sit down and write.

Like, now. Seriously! If you close this window right now, open up the word processor of your choice and start typing, that would probably be more helpful than finishing this post. I wouldn't mind.


In the event that you're still here, or have gone away and come back:

You want to write a story that... holds true to your sensibilities? Is that the right way to put it? That's the impression I'm getting from your post. I think that will come more or less naturally to you (if only because most people don't bother writing stuff that doesn't engage them). Your sensibilities will leak into your writing on their own. Just write something. Take a premise. It can be "knight rescues princess from dragon" if you like, it doesn't have to be elaborate or original. You don't have to plan the story out in advance, or set out to tell a particular moral, or come up with a great plot twist that everything builds towards. Start with "Scene One: King gives mission briefing to prince", or "Scene One: Prince is cursed and banished from homeland," or "Scene One: Prince kneels defeated in front of dragon, narrating his tale via flashback." Wherever. Then improvise. Add twists on the fly, if you think they'd be funny or interesting. Add complications if the situation seems boring or overly simple. Figure out what it's supposed to mean, if anything, as you go.

Will this produce a good story? I don't know. I'm not a writer. But it will produce a story, which is more than you would get from reading Joseph Campbell or trying to come up with a really great high concept. I think you'd learn something. (At a bare minimum, you would learn that my advice was unhelpful. ^_^) Even if it turns out to be a bad story, that'll teach you something.

"Write" and "try to break down how stories work" are not mutually incompatible, of course. For all I know, you have a short story in the works already, or you're an experienced writer who wants to start delving into the theory of it. Talking about story structure and the like can be fun*. I just wanted to say this because it sounds a little like you think the process goes -

1. Learn how to write a good story
2. Start writing

- and I think that's exactly backwards.

*And I will be watching this thread with interest, in case somebody has books or essays to recommend, or finds a starting point for a good discussion.

[Aotrs Commander]

Basically, yeah. Probably better off measuring it in hours rather than words (since it's really time spent that's the important metric) but the principle's right. Though it's absolutely fine just to write for the sake of enjoyment/self-expression rather than with any expectation of being published, and you'll probably have more fun that way, too.

Indeed, I think it's possible that you might find that some (and increasing number?) of authors these days may do some of those early million words (etc) on stuff like fanfiction (I certainly know some fanfiction authors have aspirations); or at least perhaps, do the literary equilvent of webcomics.

(I suspect fanfiction would likely get you more exposure, though.)

I once heard it rumoured that the writer of a popular fanfiction crossover might be the author of one of the works so crossed; though I wouldn't lay any weight that claim (having read neither the work nor the fanfiction) I certainly wouldn't unilaterally deny the possibilty as something to do for breaking writer's block or fun in the relative safety of the anomimity of the internet.



I think the other big thing, though, is that - and again, Saph, you're the expert - professional authors write because they have to write, like artists have to draw. (Which is why I have only managed to write three short fanfiction stories in thirteen years...! I'm just not driven enough. I like the idea of being able to write - twenty-four years of DMing and quest writing certainly have got me at the level of plotting as well, some of my ideas are quite detailed, and get gone over and over and over in my head - but at the end of the day, I always fall down in actually finding the motivation to sit down and actually DO it. Though the day we have a device that can translate thoughts to narrative... Then you can worry!)

[SiuiS]

Okay, several points here.

First, you're late to the party on the fairy-tale thing. Everyone and their dog has done a parody/retelling of the classic fairy tales, so you aren't doing anything new by "subverting" them. It's also worth noting that "knight saves princess" is what's referred to as a dead unicorn trope – people believe that it was some ever-present tale, when the truth is that it was never particularly common in the first place. Honestly, I've read so many retellings of "knight saves princess, but with a twist" that when I read yet another, I'm genuinely more surprised when there ISN'T a twist.

But again, I'm not deciding to write a bunch of subversions at all. That was shorthand to give an impression, I did ask for actual stories too.

I am bemused that adding a "why I want a discussion to happen" section has prevented the discussion from happening. I understand writing is hard, and all that. You can either help and trust that I know what I plan to do with the pieces, or not. Explaining why you think I'm not qualified is not helpful.


Second, when it comes to stories, seeds and components aren't typically all that useful.

Does this mean a situation where they are useful doesn't exist?


Third, writing simple children's stories, and doing it well, is hard. Much harder than writing non-simple fiction for adults. This goes double if you're trying to include morals. Simple children's stories that are also designed to endorse a particular set of morals usually end up being preachy and trite. If you look at the really good children's stories, they often have quite complex morals that don't lend themselves to easy lessons.

I would rather not be judged by a finished product I haven't made. 'You probably won't write well' is a very poor reason to not give me ideas to write with.