Is the Magician Archetype Worthwhile?

[Palanan]

I have a low-level druid/bard who hasn't made much use of his bardic side so far, and I'm not seeing that IC would be all that valuable. By contrast, I like the look of the Magician Archetype (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/bard/archetypes/paizo---bard-archetypes/magician) from the APG. Since we have a sorcerer, a cleric and a summoner in the party, would this be a useful archetype to have around?

This is my first Pathfinder game and I have zero experience with archetypes, so constructive advice is welcome.

[Psyren]

Magician is indeed good. I personally like to combine it with Sound Striker (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/bard/archetypes/paizo---bard-archetypes/sound-striker) for some bardic blasting.

The main advantages of Magician are the UMD bonus, free spells known (and they are non-bardic spells on top of that), Dweomercraft and Wand Mastery. The downside is that you must choose a bonded object, which ties your spellcasting to something that can be destroyed or stolen, so be careful. Making this object a wand however is useful because you can put nearly any spell into it without needing the crafting prereqs and benefit from Wand Mastery on that spell.

Magician is not quite as necessary if there are other arcanists in the party, though they will love you for Dweomercraft at least, and you will love them for helping you craft non-bard spells into your wand for Wand Mastery.

[Larkas]

you will love them for helping you craft non-bard spells into your wand for Wand Mastery.

Wait, does that even work? Doesn't Wand Mastery apply to wands containing a spell on the bard's spell list? Can you have more than one spell in a wand?

[Psyren]

Wait, does that even work? Doesn't Wand Mastery apply to wands containing a spell on the bard's spell list? Can you have more than one spell in a wand?

Sure it does, but there are going to be plenty of spells on your list that you don't actually know and therefore can't put into the wand yourself. (In fact, those would be the most ideal candidates for "wandage," considering that any spell in your wand is one that you don't need to be taking up a valuable spells known slot.)

[Larkas]

Sure it does, but there are going to be plenty of spells on your list that you don't actually know and therefore can't put into the wand yourself. (In fact, those would be the most ideal candidates for "wandage," considering that any spell in your wand is one that you don't need to be taking up a valuable spells known slot.)

I know that, but you mentioned non-bard spells. The only way for that to work for them is if you can more than one spell in a wand (one bard, one non-bard). Is that possible?

[Psyren]

I know that, but you mentioned non-bard spells. The only way for that to work for them is if you can more than one spell in a wand (one bard, one non-bard). Is that possible?

Did I? My bad. I guess I was thinking that Expanded Repertoire adds the new spells to your individual list as well, but the most recent FAQ seems to enforce the distinction between spell list and spells known.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Psyren
Magician is indeed good…. The main advantages of Magician are the UMD bonus, free spells known (and they are non-bardic spells on top of that), Dweomercraft and Wand Mastery.

Outstanding, and thanks as always for your very helpful advice.

I'm quite tempted by that extra arcane spell. Is there one you'd recommend from the other arcane spell lists?

[Psyren]

Outstanding, and thanks as always for your very helpful advice.

I'm quite tempted by that extra arcane spell. Is there one you'd recommend from the other arcane spell lists?

To answer that, just look at a bard's strengths and weaknesses.

Pros: good buffs, healing, lots of will saves and social spells.

Cons: poor direct offense, lack of attacks that target reflex, fort and AC/CMD, they are likely to have moderate Cha and low spell levels so they will have weak DCs,

What you pick to fill those gaps depends on the campaign. In an undead-heavy campaign I would want more blasting for instance (because fewer will and fort saves will work) - so that would mean picking up efficient blasts like Scorching Ray and Intensified Magic Missile. (I would also most definitely lean towards Sound Striker for such a campaign.)

Another key trove to raid are spells that are lower on someone else's list. Summoner is a gold mine for this, getting you gems like Haste and Phantom Steed at 2nd level, Dimension Door/Greater Invisibility at 3rd level, and Teleport at 4th level.

[RogueDM]

I think the greatest value of the Magician archetype is the mental image of a bard in top hat and cape, maybe even a jaunty mustache, pulling cheesy stage antics. Or, alternately, the Zaltanna costume... that might just be me though.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Psyren
What you pick to fill those gaps depends on the campaign. In an undead-heavy campaign I would want more blasting….

So far it's shaping up to be a goblinoid-heavy campaign; in our first session we went up against goblins, hobgoblins and bugbears, almost all of whom shrugged off every charm spell we tried. I'm wondering if Shocking Grasp might be what I'm looking for.

:smalltongue:


Originally Posted by Psyren
Another key trove to raid are spells that are lower on someone else's list. Summoner is a gold mine for this….

Sadly, as a second-level bard it doesn't look like I'll be getting any of those for a while.

: /

[Psyren]

So far it's shaping up to be a goblinoid-heavy campaign; in our first session we went up against goblins, hobgoblins and bugbears, almost all of whom shrugged off every charm spell we tried. I'm wondering if Shocking Grasp might be what I'm looking for.

:smalltongue:

When I think of goblins, strong will saves aren't the first thing to come to mind usually. Maybe you were just unlucky.


Sadly, as a second-level bard it doesn't look like I'll be getting any of those for a while.

: /

Few archetypes get going at level 2, that's nothing new :smalltongue:

[grarrrg]

Another key trove to raid are spells that are lower on someone else's list. Summoner is a gold mine for this, getting you gems like Haste and Phantom Steed at 2nd level, Dimension Door/Greater Invisibility at 3rd level, and Teleport at 4th level.

Sadly, as a second-level bard it doesn't look like I'll be getting any of those for a while.

Why not?
BOOM! Sotto Voce, now a Cantrip thanks to Sorc/Wiz.
BOOM! Daze Monster, now a 1st level spell thanks to Summoner.
BOOM! Returning Weapon, now a 1st level spell thanks to Magus.
BOOM! Snapdragon Fireworks, now a 1st level spell thanks to Sorc/Wiz

Minor Dream is stolen from Witch, the rest are either Summoner or Sorc/Wiz.
All are discounted only 1 level, except for the last 3, which are discounted 2 levels.
2 Returning Weapon, Communal
2 Haste
2 Phantom Steed
2 Slow
2 See Invisibility
2 Minor Dream
2 Elemental Speech
2 Death From Below
3 Dimension Door
3 Nixie's Lure
3 Locate Creature
3 Summon Monster IV
3 Invisibility, Greater
3 Phantom Steed, Communal
4 Summon Monster V
4 Renovation
4 Cat's Grace, Mass
4 Eagle's Splendor, Mass
4 Fox's Cunning, Mass

[Psyren]

I know that, but you mentioned non-bard spells. The only way for that to work for them is if you can more than one spell in a wand (one bard, one non-bard). Is that possible?

Upon reread I see it is now actually possible for a Magician to make and use non-bardic wands (without UMD.) Expanded Repertoire does in fact add the spells to both their spells known and their spell list, making it eligible for them to cast from a spell-trigger or spell-completion item once created.

So to answer your question in post #3, yes it does work.

[Larkas]

Upon reread I see it is now actually possible for a Magician to make and use non-bardic wands (without UMD.) Expanded Repertoire does in fact add the spells to both their spells known and their spell list, making it eligible for them to cast from a spell-trigger or spell-completion item once created.

So to answer your question in post #3, yes it does work.

You're missing the point, man. I want to know if Wand Mastery can apply to wands of any spell not in your spell list, including those added by Expanded Repertoire. You said that:


you will love them for helping you craft non-bard spells into your wand for Wand Mastery

If you added a non-bard spell to your spell list via Expanded Repertoire, then you won't need your party members to supply said spells to you.

[Psyren]

If you added a non-bard spell to your spell list via Expanded Repertoire, then you won't need your party members to supply said spells to you.

Not true - if they get the spell before you do, you can create the wand first and then use it later.

[Larkas]

Not true - if they get the spell before you do, you can create the wand first and then use it later.

Indeed, but that's a pretty fringe case, right? If Wand Mastery worked with any wand, or at least any arcane wand, it would be awesome. As it is, it's just neat.

[Psyren]

Indeed, but that's a pretty fringe case, right?

It's not all that rare - from 3rd-level spells onward, Bards lag behind compared to full casters when it comes to accessing spells of the same level. So if such a caster can save you some crafting time before you gain access to that spell yourself, so much the better.