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Beleriphon
2007-03-01, 05:30 AM
With the appearent death of amry vs PC threads I thought I would present a slighty, I hope, more realistic scenario using PCs and a medival level of technology.

To start our scenario is a war of succession. We have three nations at war: Doombatia, Lordonia and Theocratica. The nations all border each other, like a pie, on a continent of a similar size to the United States. In effect each country borders the other two in such a way to never signficantly impede the invasion of another if needed.

Lordonia has the largest amount of land, approximately the size of the two others combined, it also has a total population of approximately 15 million. It covers the southern end of the continent and is know for having a large, and highly productive agricultural base, as well as a solid industrial base. They are in no way lacking food or military materials. The leaders of the nation are largely NPC classed (aristocrat and expert mostly_, although a number of the military leaders have up to four levels in a relevent PC class (fighter or ranger mostly, there are several wizards however). The army itself is large and professional, it is largely composed of warriors. The dispersion of the population is fairly even, consisting of thousands of small towns that supply larger towns, which in turn supply the half dozen large cities and metropolises.

Doombatia was once a powerful nation and currently cover approximately 1/3 of the continent, known for a prevelance of powerful leaders. These leaders a predominantly PC classed, although none are above 10th level, and none possess any prestige classes. The current population of Doombatia is only about 2.5 million, they have a small standing army, but use a very large number of undead troops to bolster their lower number of living soldiers. In terms of food production Doombatia has a low turn out, but they have a very large base of raw material production owing to being on the northern end of the continent with huge forests and mountain ranges. Due to the difficult terrain of the country there are several nigh unassailable fortress cities scattered throughout the mountains. If necessary it would be possible to withdraw nearly 80% of the country's population into the protection of these cities over the course of approximately six weeks.

Theocratica is a nation of religion. Their leadership is composed entirely of clerics, or lay members, of the dominant religion. They're country covers the western part of the continent with a strong agricultural base, but weak industry. The total population is approximately 7.5 million. In combat each unit usually has a first level cleric or adept, and the majority of the army is composed of warriors or conscripted commoners, although they are well known for using magical armarments in combat.

The specifics of the armies.

Lordonia
Total army size: 600,000 men
Leadership: General McFluffy LN 6 Ari/4 Ftr
Composition: 550,000 typical men split among cavalry, infantry, and archers. None are higher then 5th level and these compose only 5% of the total army. 50,000 men split among none fighting classes as engineers or other specialist. Of these remaining 50,000 only 1% are PC classed. These 500 specialist are no higher then 8th level, and some possess PrCs, limited to the DMG as a source. They form a single special unit of "troubleshooters" and special forces operatives. There is a slight preference to Fighter as a PC class as part of this last 1%.
Rulers: King Lordo is well liked and McFluffy is his brother. Lordo is a Pal 7/ Exp 3, he has twelve children. None of Lordo's children are of age to take the throne should he die (although several of his son's would be within a few years), so that would fall to McFluffy as a regent. McFluffy is childless.

Theocratica
Total army size: 350,000 men
Leadership: Baron Aaron NG Clr 4/4 Ari
Composition: The Therocratican army is similar in composition to the Lordonian army in terms of percentages. However they field a special regiment of wizards mounted on gryphons that is 1000 strong, none are higher level then fifth. Otherwise every single unit in the army has a signle adept or cleric no higher then third level. They provide healing and spiritual guidance to the troops in battle. The troops themselves are well equipped, with magical items of low level (+1 weapons) being given to lieutenants and above.
Rulers: Cardinal Korak LE Clr 8

Doombatia
Total army size: 200,000 men
Leadership: Warlord Wadabia LE Ftr 10
Composition: 150,000 + 75,000 undead. The troops of are hardened and bitter. None of them are below third level, and most have one level in fighter. They rely largely on heavy infantry armed with greatswords and wearing full plate. These infantry compose approximately 80% of the army. The remaining 20% is an even split between archers and heavy cavalry. The undead are vaguely free willed, in that they can be given orders like any normal troop and have some level automous thought. They are capable of determining the difference between friend and foe, and will use basic tactics in combat, up to and including changing targets as a unit if something more dangerous appears. All units are equipped with masterwork versions of normal equipment.
Rulers: King Zod LE Lich Sor 11, has ruled for nearly 100 years and is generally well liked for a rotting corpse.

If necessary each country can bring traditional seige weapons to bear, although Lordonia can construct it in 3/4 the time of the other two countries. Theocratica's seige weapons are often magical, and Doombatia's have ranges 150% of either Lordonia or Theocratica's.

Take a side and win me a war, if you're up to it. If I missed something that you need info about I'll add it to the this post.

Jade_Tarem
2007-03-01, 05:45 AM
I can only assume, based on the fractions you give, that Theocratica covers 1/6 of the continent. Lordania will try to conquer it first, and will do so quickly, adding whatever magical reserves they can to thier numbers before attempting to take the heavily entrenched Doombatia on. They'll have to rely on standard tactics and conventions to tackle either nation, and that may hurt. Thier troubleshooters are going to get some serious action when they get around to Doombatia.

DB is going to have to choose battles carefully. It helps that you can shield 80% of your populace in a crunch - but it would be so much better if you could make sure that your enemies feel whatever it is you're hiding from. See if you can lure Lordania into a Russian Winter scenario. Fight them through the summer along your borders. Allow them to make headway into the heartland of your beautiful northern country. Then comes October and BAM - Valley Forge! As for the cleric group? They are weak. Strike a deal with them for magic weapons and bolster undeads. If they're dumb enough to refuse, feed the wizards their own griffons.

Theocratia will have to rely on it's marginally superior magic abilities. I get the feeling that 1000 wizards on griffons is often going to look more like 1000 fireballs coming from outside archer range. Cheese it for what it's worth, bueause TC doesn't have a whole lot else going for it.

Sardia
2007-03-01, 05:52 AM
I'm leaning toward Theocratia here, just because of the griffin-mounted-wizard unit that enables them to do a fire-laying "March through Georgia" against one of the other two nations. Catching up with a thousand 7-hd monsters with a move of 80 and darkvision isn't going to be an easy task, even before you put wizards on them.

Lordonia's major asset is its population...if they feel like getting into a heavy war of attrition, which might not work because the other two armies seem to have greater resilience-- higher level, abundant clerics, good fortresses, or just being raised from the dead.

daggaz
2007-03-01, 06:34 AM
Doombatia will be invaded first, with very heavy forces, tho only partly. Lordania will seize the lower more accessible lands, forcing the meager population into their mountain shelters. Once the lower areas are firmly under control, and the Doombatia army is safely entrenched and basically removed from any major military maneuvers, there will be an all out full scale attack on Theocratia.

This second attack will occur very soon after the initial attack, and will use every possible unit available, leaving only a modicum of defenses in Doombatia's lands. However, the Lordanian attack on Theocratia will be swift and ruthless, speed is of the essence. While there may be some attempts by the Doombatians to regain some of their territory (remember they have to come down out of the mtns to do it), the losses sustained in defending from their limited attacks will be acceptable. In the meantime, the real threat in Theocratia will be razed to the ground. Every form of infrastructure, save the armies supply roads and bridges, will be burnt or destroyed. The populace will be slaughtered. The crops and livestock will go directly into the belly of the advancing army.

As the offense continues, the main bulk of Lordania will be moving forward into the occupied lands.. its southern most reaches will be thinned, but not emptied. Once Theocratia is sufficiently controlled (preferably with only a smattering of resistance groups left, at best), full attention will be turned to the retaking of lost Doombatia territory (if any), and the ultimate siege and capture of their highland cities.

Unless Theocratia and Doombatia have several months advance notice of these plans, as well as the will to fight together and plan a communal defense, and HOPEFULLY as well some kind of trump card or power with which to surprise the soon to be invading army, they have little if any hope of survival, given their highly disadvantageous situation regarding territory and population sizes and allotment of resources. Lordania is lacking nothing for the maintainance and use of a large, forceful army, while the other two have definite weaknesses.

Sardia
2007-03-01, 06:44 AM
Every form of infrastructure, save the armies supply roads and bridges, will be burnt or destroyed. The populace will be slaughtered. The crops and livestock will go directly into the belly of the advancing army.

King Lordo will kiss his paladin status goodbye.

daggaz
2007-03-01, 06:54 AM
yeah... thats fine. Pally's suck, and Lordo would much rather be a blackguard anyhow. He'll have to be anyhow, if he is going to do any real conquering in the first place.

He will justify it as for the greater good of his glorious nation. Think the rise of Hitler.

Foxer
2007-03-01, 07:26 AM
I'll take Theocratia as my kingdom for this exercise.

Now, if I've read the brief correctly, I have a population of seven-and-a-half million and a conscript army of 350,000 men, well-supported by magic users, but not as well-trained as the troops the other nations are fielding.

I've got a good agricultural base, but my big economic weakness is industry and mining. My objective in the war is correcting that imbalance, so my target is Doombatia's industrial facilities.

My first priority is a good pretext for war, and to make sure Lordonia doesn't come in through my back door whilst I'm trouncing Doombatia. I'll send clerics and adepts across the border into Lordonia to spread the Good Word, help the poor and needy and - most importantly - to preach about the evil forces brooding within the borders of our shared neighbour. My
propaganda corps will start spreading stories (in both Theocratia and Lordonia) of Doombatia loosing control over its undead minions, and tell tales of groups of ghouls and zombies sneaking across the border to molest innocent villagers, interfere with our honoured dead and eat our tasty, tasty brains.

As Cardinal Korak, I'll brief some junior priests to make a few "unauthorised" hellfire-and-damnation sermons about the unnatural practices of the Doombatian elite, and whip up popular sentiment against Doombatia. With a little luck, the citizens of Lordonia will start agitating for better border defences with Doombatia, and force King Lordo to pull troops off our mutual
border and onto the border he shares with Doombatia. Since Lordonia is larger by far than my own nation, Doombatia will consider them the most serious threat, and reinforce that border at the expense of the one they share with me. Meanwhile I quietly lay in additional supplies of weapons, and quietly pull some of my level one clerics out of the front-line units and
train them as special undead-busting squads.

Now I announce a Holy Crusade against Doombatia, swearing to rid the continent of their evil. All those who join my crusade are promised redemption, a place in paradise if they fall in battle, and a nice patch of Doombatian real estate if they survive. Thousands more volunteers swell the ranks of my army, and I pour across Doombatia's border in a series of wave assualts, running the locals off the land and settling my own people on it as swiftly as possible. When I meet undead units, I will counter with my squads of clerics, whilst relying on weight of numbers to beat the hardened Doombatian heavy infantry. Since these guys will be slow, due to their heavy armour, even my poorly trained (but zealous) conscripts should be able to outmaneuver, outflank and surround them. The griffin-riding wizards will be split into two groups. One half will support my advance, and will be ordered to target Doombatian forces in the field. They are to concentrate on Doombatia's small forces of cavalry and archers since, without the mobility and fire-support these offer, destroying the heavy infantry will be an easier proposition for my conscript horde. Once the archers and cavalry are depleted, the griffin riders will be turned loose onto
targets of opportunity - concentrations of undead my forces can't cope with, fortifications and so on.

The other five hundred griffin riders will be split up into smaller units, and sent to roam the Doombatian interior. Primary targets will be bridges and barracks. The more Doombatian soldiers I can kill whilst they're mustering, the better. I have weight of numbers, so Doombatia cannot afford a long struggle. Therefore I will destroy military stores and quartermasters'
facilities to further reduce their "loiter-time". Most important, though, are the bridges. I need to stop Doombatia force-marching their reserves into the warzone and from pulling troops off the Doombatia-Lordonia border.

Once I've annexed a nice chunk of Doombatia, including lots of lumber-mills, mines, quarries and other desirable resources, I call a halt. I give out that Cardinal Korak is concerned for the suffering of the ordinary Doombatian commoners, who have been wounded or driven off in our assualt, and that, for their sakes, he will open negotiations with the Doombatian elite with a
view to a ceasefire and a peaceful settlement to the conflict. Since Doombatia needs time to regroup and raise more undead troops, I expect them to accept.

During the talks, which I will spin out for as long as possible, I will continue to pour settlers across the old border into occupied territory. Meanwhile my army will dig in and fortify our gains. Those Doombatians caught behind our lines will be offered citizenship and will be rehoused at my expense - paid for out of my war profits, naturally. I'll even round up a few junior officers, blame them for the suffering of the ordinary Doombatians, and hang them as war criminals (Cardinal Korak is evil, remember?). Then I present the new state of affairs to the Doombatian negotiators as a fait accompli.

Of course, no plan ever survives contact with the enemy, but I'd call that a modest win: I've expanded my borders, enlarged my population and improved my economy - what more could I want from a war?

Emperor Tippy
2007-03-01, 11:52 AM
The 3 steps for any nation to win a war in D&D (if the Spell Compendium is allowed):

Step 1: Higher one 20th level wizard for a week (say 100,000 GP)
Step 2: Have that wizard cast Greater Dragon Ally 8 times (2 days worth) (costs 176,000 GP)
Step 3: Set your 8 Adult dragons (you choose the color) loose against the enemy army

Total cost: 300,000 GP (you have to add in a little bit of padding incase of anything unforeseen)

Time Required: Less than a week

Inyssius Tor
2007-03-01, 12:22 PM
Yes, but where are you getting this epic caster? The highest level spellcaster we've got is Zod, and he's only level eleven (not including his lichy LA). If you say "I get him from Sigil," then why, if epic casters are easily obtainable there, can't the other two nations also obtain nigh-epic cheese? Well, because they can't get to Sigil, seeing as how the most powerful caster on the continent can't cast Plane Shift or Gate.

Quietus
2007-03-01, 12:28 PM
Because, you know, there's so many 20th level wizards with obscure spells floating around willing to do your work for you.

kellandros
2007-03-01, 01:09 PM
Secondly on the 20th level caster, how is even that much gold worth his time?

If he can summon a group of dragons to conquer the world for you, why doesn't he go ahead and do it himself? The answer is running the world takes up too much time away from his magical research and practice. Now, holding the world for ransom for ... ONE BILLION GOLD PIECES, that I could see. Especially with a hairless cat as a familiar.

--------------------
Anyway, back on topic.

The three sides appear to be primarily:
Lordonia: largest numbers, skill monkeys(specialists, engineers, prestige classes)
siege bonus: build faster
Theocratica: magic (common clerical, cadre of wizards, magic items)
siege bouns: magical enhancement
Doombatia: experience, toughness, fortifications
siege bonus: more range

Doombatia is geared toward defense Their siege weapon ranges mean they can destroy the weapons the other side is constructing or dragging into range. Not sure about infantry being used heavily in a siege, but the higher level, better armored infantry would be able to punch through lines of lower level soldiers easily. They would be the most interesting group to control for me.

I think they could trounce Lordonia's army in most battles. Siege-wise, longer range catapults allow unanswerable shots. As long as they get their attacks in first, they can destroy their opponent's attacks. Surprise attacks to destroy those weapons would probably fail when the guards are higher level and tougher.

Theocratia could defeat them in most battlefield encounters. Zombie soldiers meet Turn Undead. Clerics can buff their allies and heal, plus magical weapons/armor even out the level/HD inequality. Siege weapons and fortifications are not designed to use against fast flying targets. Without a huge mass of archers or ranged spellcasting, nothing they have can hurt them. Holed up in their fortresses, they could hold off Theocratia for a long while, but would lose- clerics defeat the normal ravages of sieges- lack of food and water, diseases, attrition.

Lordonia vs. Theocratia though:
Basic armies are identical, none higher than fifth level. It is a little unclear in the original description, but I think the 50,000 specialists Lordonia gets are seperate from what Theocratia duplicates. So you have skill levels, and possibly a higher percentage of fighter levels(slightly more HP, +1 to hit), and almost a 2:1 numbers advantage. Theocratia gets the clerics with their troops(buff spells, plus healing), and wizards providing some air cover.

I'd still give the edge to Theocratia. Lordonia doesn't have a large enough manpower advantage to win by attrition, especially when their opponents have access to healing. Flight also tends to allow easy avoidance of siege lines.

Piccamo
2007-03-01, 01:13 PM
The 3 steps for any nation to win a war in D&D (if the Spell Compendium is allowed):

Step 1: Higher one 20th level wizard for a week (say 100,000 GP)
Step 2: Have that wizard cast Greater Dragon Ally 8 times (2 days worth) (costs 176,000 GP)
Step 3: Set your 8 Adult dragons (you choose the color) loose against the enemy army

Total cost: 300,000 GP (you have to add in a little bit of padding incase of anything unforeseen)

Time Required: Less than a week

Thats an answer to a separate question. If you're going to troll about how great wizards are, wait until another fighter v. wizard thread pops up. They happen once every couple weeks. Thanks.

dorshe1
2007-03-01, 01:23 PM
Thats an answer to a separate question. If you're going to troll about how great wizards are, wait until another fighter v. wizard thread pops up. They happen once every couple weeks. Thanks.

Some people just can't wait. They just get that wizard itch.

I'd pick the big one. Make an alliance with the clerics. "Doombatia is run by a Lich!!! They are EVIL!!!! We'll supply you with troops, you turn the undead."

After you crush Doombatia try to figure out whether or not it is worth it to conquer the clerics, or you could just offer them to join your empire and give the highest level cleric a cool sounding title. "Chief Imperial Spiritual Defender" Or some such.

spotmarkedx
2007-03-01, 01:31 PM
Huh. This is very classic "Romance of three Kingdoms"-like. With three countries in the field, it will not be very long, if a single one of those countries gains an obvious edge, before the other two band together to form an alliance against the other.

My thoughts? Doombatia has the advantage in a drawn out war scenario assuming that the undead legions are reasonably easy to replace with new undead soldiers, as the casting time of a spell to create these undead will most likely be less than the time to train a new unit of conscripts. For purposes of this arguement, I'm assuming that Doombatia has a HD limitation of undead that is keeping their standing undead forces to that 75k limit. Anyway, they should be able to form an alliance early in the war with Theocratia, since the obviously large army is more likely to cause fear, and have the advantage of early momentum. If they mostly use their (easily replacable) undead units for their ally and border obligations, they should be able to win the attrition war handily, keeping the main part of their human fighting force in reserve until they feel that they can take on a good part of both armies at the same time.

If instead the undead are effectively irreplacable on the short-term (it takes a couple years to grow them in vats or something), I think Theocratica has the edge. The 1000-griffon strong unit of air power is going to be pretty difficult for Lordonia to stop, and the ability for Theocratica to Turn/rebuke a third of Doombatia's forces is too much of an advantage. Also, being the small, more "elite" force, they are going to be more often the preferable ally to have against the other nation, and if their leadership has a good grasp of diplomacy, they should be able to play the other nations against eachother for a while as they gear up to make a play themselves.


Doombatia will be invaded first, with very heavy forces, tho only partly. Lordania will seize the lower more accessible lands, forcing the meager population into their mountain shelters. Once the lower areas are firmly under control, and the Doombatia army is safely entrenched and basically removed from any major military maneuvers, there will be an all out full scale attack on Theocratia.

This second attack will occur very soon after the initial attack, and will use every possible unit available, leaving only a modicum of defenses in Doombatia's lands. However, the Lordanian attack on Theocratia will be swift and ruthless, speed is of the essence. While there may be some attempts by the Doombatians to regain some of their territory (remember they have to come down out of the mtns to do it), the losses sustained in defending from their limited attacks will be acceptable. Not sure I agree here. I'll agree that if Lordania focuses the majority of his army on Doombatia, they will be forced to retreat to their mountain fortresses. But then you're only leaving a "modicom of defenses" to keep them from retaking their lands and hitting you from behind? How do you figure? Doombatia has fearless shock troops (undead), and well equipped heavy plate. His army numbers 225k troops (well, figure 175k after losses in the field battles that led to the siege) Are you honestly going to only leave a small portion of your army to defend against this? And even if you just try to wait them out, (assuming he can remake his undead legions), he's going to wear you down by hitting you with waves of undead.

So, assuming you take your 600k army, force the siege (figure half the losses Doombatia took), so you're at 575k. If you only leave equal troops ( bad idea, IMO, but lets run with it), you're taking 400k into Theocratia, who can muster an army of 350k. With mages riding griffons. With clerics that keep their units healthy. Sorry, I think Theocratia spanks your armies in the field in this situation. It then becomes a race between Theocratia and Doombatia over who can eat up more of your territory over the remainder of the campaign season.

Foxer
2007-03-01, 02:07 PM
Slightly off-topic, but I felt it needs to be said:

Some reasons why 20th+ spellcasters cannot be used in war.

"I can't be getting involved with this sort of nonsense..."

A spellcaster who has reached the dizzying heights of epic or near-epic levels probably has a sense of priorities that lesser beings would consider somewhat esoteric. An epic spellcaster is likely more concerned with events on a multiplanar level than on what's happening in his or her immediate geographic area. Getting one of these sages to drop what for them are serious concerns to deal with something as mundane as a mere foreign invasion might be rather tricky.

"... especially at my age."

Epic spellcasters are old. Really old. And even if they've delayed or arrested the aging process by dint of their magical powers, they are far from immortal. Unlike youngsters (who all secretly believe themselves immortal), these guys are likely to be highly-conscious of all the stuff they've still to do and the ever-decreasing amount of time they have to do it in.

Spending a week observing an astral conjunction they won't get another chance to see for five hundred years might be on the list, but fighting your war for you probably isn't. Sorry.

"Besides, I have responsibilities..."

Cohorts, students, apprentices, family members and other dependents; would the high mage abandon them to come to the aid of your nation? No matter how dire your situation, he might well have existing demands on his valuable time.

"... and what will the Liche-King Beth-zoral do whilst my back's turned? I've got problems of my own, you know?"

You don't get to 20th level without stepping on a few toes. High-level casters have high-level enemies, who would just love to wreck their carefully-laid plans. That epic caster is even less likely to come to your aid if it means risking one of his enemies making their move whilst they're preoccupied with your problems.

"And, trust me, you don't want my problems."

Worse, the epic caster's enemies might have a nasty habit of making the caster's business their own. If you do manage to drag an epic caster away from his own important projects you might get more than you bargained for when another, nastier, epic caster offers his services to your enemies out of simple spite. There won't be many epic casters out there, and, since just
about the only thing that can hurt one is another epic caster, you can just bet that they watch each other like hawks all the time. If the caster you've called upon does come to your aid, at least one mage of equal or greater power is going to be paying very close attention.

"The stars are right!"

Some idiot is trying to raise the Elder Gods from their prison of aeons. That Vecna twit is trying to return from the dead, again. Civil war has broken out amongst the Olympians. What was your problem again?

"What's in it for me?"

He doesn't need money. He already has more eldrich artifacts than he knows what to do with. He can summon up lithe succubi when he needs a little sugar. What the hell do you offer this guy in return for his services?

"You really are not the boss of me."

You've got nothing the arch-wizard wants, so you can't bribe him. He's got problems you can't even imagine, so he won't be coming to your rescue out of the goodness of his heart. You sure as hell can't order him to help, even if he is technically a subject. Don't try - a baleful polymorph often offends.

Dausuul
2007-03-01, 02:08 PM
Can we have some more exact figures, please?

1. What exactly are the compositions of the armies? You say that Theocratia and Lordania don't have any regular troops above 5th level, but that covers a lot of ground; 550,000 fifth-level warriors are a whole lot tougher than 550,000 first-level warriors. What's the approximate level breakdown for each of the nations?

2. What does King Zod have for a spell selection? He's not one of the 20th-level wizards that Emperor Tippy likes to yabber on about, but he's still the most powerful caster on the continent and he's got lich toughness to back it up. He can be a major factor in the war... but a lot hinges on whether he took teleport or cloudkill when he hit 10th level.

3. What's available for magic items? This seems to be a pretty low-magic setting; if the world isn't crawling with high-level casters, it's probably also not drowning in high-level items. How much can the leaders of each nation spend on personal magic gear and what's the cap on how much any one item can cost?

4. Where does King Zod get his horde of undead and what does he have to do to get more?

daggaz
2007-03-01, 02:18 PM
Yes. A modicum of defense. First they are hit, and hit hard enough to force them into the hills. Yes, the army will take losses (with the population as high as it is, its rather silly the army is so small. I would institute a draft and at least 2 weeks basic training, but ok lets go with these numbers..) but they gain the defensive ground. In other words, they dig in in the strategic points in the lower areas. And under this, doombotia takes heavy losses as well, and remember who has the significantly smaller army here. Afterwards, if they want to come back down and fight, fine, but they will be 1) moving through steep, mountainous regions in full plate (or having to lug the armor around with them) 2) denied the best agricultural areas and thus the majority of their food supply (im sure they will take a lot with them, but once again, steep mountainous areas. Every pound counts against them here) and 3) be forced to go on the offensive against a defensive position (you need vastly superior numbers for that to be effective) rather than holding out from a siege in their own defensive nest. Modicum of forces means just enough to defend the most strategic low lying areas. Certain losses will be acceptable, all that needs to be done is to maintain a war of attrition, where the enemy cannot advance without great cost and difficulty. Basically, all this is is a holding move.

Ultimately tho, the whole scenario is missing key points, namely the diplomatic relations between countries, past history, power of the kings over the people (popular doesnt quite explain things), and willingness/coercability of the population to do what it takes. Probably a few more things would be nice to know..

Oh, and whenever you are fighting a lich king, it just goes without saying that you burn whatever dead you can get your hands on, from either side.

spotmarkedx
2007-03-01, 02:59 PM
Yes. A modicum of defense. First they are hit, and hit hard enough to force them into the hills. Yes, the army will take losses (with the population as high as it is, its rather silly the army is so small. I would institute a draft and at least 2 weeks basic training, but ok lets go with these numbers..) but they gain the defensive ground. In other words, they dig in in the strategic points in the lower areas. <snip>

Ah, so you're digging in then, instead of your stated lightning strike against Theocratia? Did I misunderstand this comment then:

This second attack will occur very soon after the initial attack, and will use every possible unit available, leaving only a modicum of defenses in Doombatia's lands.
I agree that you push Doombatia back to their mountain fortresses, but assuming that they have any sense of your impending attack (I'm not sure how you would be masking it with a 600k man force), they've probably already started bringing their citizens to safety. If they are smart, they sent an envoy to Theocratia too. They fight a withdrawl action (I did assume that you caused casualties on a 2:1 ratio here), but don't try to fight a field engagement. They lose about a quarter of their army (the 50k I mentioned). Now do you entrench? Or move to strike Theocratia? How much time do you spend entrenching before you move? How many troops do you leave behind, and how many do you send against Theocratia? How many troops did you leave behind to defend your own borders against Theocratia while you started invading Doombatia? What happens if/when Doombatia's envoy convinces Theocratia to move against your entrenching army before you move against their own country? Or your now unprotected homelands?


Afterwards, if they want to come back down and fight, fine, but they will be 1) moving through steep, mountainous regions in full plate (or having to lug the armor around with them)
Are you implying heavy infantry is not the preferred unit of choice in hills or mountains? I'll certainly take them over cavalry any day. Doombatia wishes it has more archers, but you can't have everything :D


2) denied the best agricultural areas and thus the majority of their food supply (im sure they will take a lot with them, but once again, steep mountainous areas. Every pound counts against them here) and 3) be forced to go on the offensive against a defensive position (you need vastly superior numbers for that to be effective) rather than holding out from a siege in their own defensive nest. Modicum of forces means just enough to defend the most strategic low lying areas. Certain losses will be acceptable, all that needs to be done is to maintain a war of attrition, where the enemy cannot advance without great cost and difficulty. Basically, all this is is a holding move.
So you think you can hold with less than 175k? Give timelines and numbers please. I think you are overestimating your own capability of taking on both enemies at the same time.

edit:
with the population as high as it is, its rather silly the army is so small. I would institute a draft and at least 2 weeks basic training, but ok lets go with these numbers
What was Sun Tzu's suggestion 1 soldier to 20 at home to support? The numbers for your army aren't all that far off. (You might be able to support another 100k of conscripts or so without overextending)

Jade_Tarem
2007-03-01, 03:57 PM
What, no love for Doombatia?

Like I said, Russian Winter. Don't be afraid to lure your enemies into your lowlands just before blizzard season. They'll find that after fighting for months on end to conquer half of your country that they really don't want it at all.

And as before, righteous crusades tend to dry up in the face of Skeletons in full plate that are, on average, higher level than your clerics. Offer Theocratica a 1-time limited offer: join with you to defeat the "superior" forces of Lordania. Point out that thier small size and numbers coupled with their magical loot and supplies easily make them the juiciest target in the local hemisphere. If they give you any lip about a bunch of wizards on griffons, then it may be time to have a little trip to the griffon paddocks one night... After you make your alliance, and hopefully defeat Lordania, turn on Theocratica and destroy them as well. Eliminate the word "Once" from your nation's title.

spotmarkedx
2007-03-01, 04:22 PM
What, no love for Doombatia?
Hey, I'll just point out that I put my money behind Doombatia in a three-sided war if they can replace their undead legions above. You're not impervious to turns (I see nothing in the setup post that indicates that you are working with more than 1 or 2HD undead), but having an easily replacable section of your army makes for the long-term win

Winterking
2007-03-01, 04:50 PM
Even if they can't easily replenish their undead, I'd put my money on Doombatia for the win. Their fortresses can easily protect their population, the terrain is very unpleasant for any invader, but more importantly, they have the best soldiers.

Take 50,000 of Doombatia's higher-level fighters/combat mooks--most of the cavalry, a few thousand archers, and the rest heavy infantry. Conscript horses/mules/beasts of burden from the common folk, and give every one of your 50,000 a mount, plus a remount/supply animal for every two or three soldiers. Right there you have a force that, if the general is talented (and a high-level general ought to be...if s/he's not, Doombatia's kinda screwed anyway) can take on Lordania with little or no problem, and they'd be the first target.

Here's how I envisage the campaign working:
First, Doombatia (me) puts together that force of elites and turns them into mounted infantry. Sure, the heavy foot won't know how to fight from horse back, but they can use the mounts to move farther/faster in a day than an army of conscripts on foot.
-The rest of Doombatia's forces turtle up, moving inside the fortresses, setting up ambushes/raids/scorched earth in expectation of a Lordanian attack.
(Theocratia has to be at worst neutral, at best a close ally--if they're jumping in too, Doombatia has little chance right away)
-The elite force strikes into Lordania, moving fast, living off the land as much as possible.
-Lordania won't be able to concentrate her entire numerical advantage against the elites--it's hard enough to feed an army of 50,000 using medieval/fantasy techniques and living off the land, let alone 100,000 or 200,000 in a province.
-My elite corps will be able to effectively pick its battles--riding nags and mules will let them maneuver to ground of their choosing.
-The elites will try to catch Lordanian army groups on their own (the divide and conquer trick), and use as many dirty tricks, clever schemes, and strategems as they can. With the greater training/experience and higher fighting power, the elites should be able to rout Lordanian forces their size and larger, while taking only limited casualties.
-Further, they are not just wandering about and raiding aimlessly. They maneuver as necessary to avoid being smashed by HUGE Lordanian forces, and while doing so, the general leads them closer and closer to a major Lordanian city.
-Ideally, the elites rout the nearest Lordanian corps, and arrive at the city with little opposition. The seige equipment they brought along gets assembled/built, and the city is offered a chance to surrender.
-If they do, and/or the city is taken, Doombatia entertains offers of peace from the Lordanians, or, if none are forthcoming, sends another column of skilled troops to reinforce the now-occupying-a-city Doombatian host.
-From there, we either rinse and repeat, burning cities that resist, doing as much damage as possible while crushing every Lordanian army we can, or I entrench the elites in my new city, and watch while Lordanian troops get cut apart in attempts to retake it. (higher level troops + defenses +better range on seige weapons=lotta carnage among the attackers).
-Basically, the idea is to beat Lordania's armies repeatedly, destroy their fighting capability. (and if we can face them at approximately equal numbers, our elites' maneuverabilty, skill, and equipment should destroy the foe with limited loss) And while doing that, occupy successive slices of Lordanian territory.

Theocratia's griffon-wizards, and their many clerics, would be a serious problem. However, with 15,000 archers (10% of 150,000), that's 15 archers per wizard; and while they may not be as skilled, you can bet that the rest of the army's fighters are proficient in martial weapons, and can fill in for fallen archers. And if the wizards are otherwise occupied (say, busy fighting in Lordania when I suddenly, treacherously roll down out of my mountains), Theocratia's army could be very seriously hurt. Oh, and King Lich-dude? His new job is to find ways to kill Griffons.

Nevermore
2007-03-01, 05:37 PM
I would also choose to lead Doombatia. I like Jade and Spotted's ideas on the Russian Winter... infact, this would be a key point of my plan, one I would expand on.

undead don't feel the cold:

During the intense Doombatian winter, I would leave them with nothing but scorched earth to live on during the hellish blizzards and storms... and out of the tempest Undead raiders would come. Sentries would be dragged away, and wagon trains full of supplys would be captured as suddenly heavily armed undead erupted from nowhere.

All the while my undead minions and would also be circling, making sure thaty any soldiers would be hugging their fires every night, fearing the cannibalistic monsters in the dark. They would be ordered to make the kills as gruesome as possible, so that the mangled devoured, frozen bodies would be discovered and the cries of pain and horror would be screamed into the night.

During the day, on days when the wether isn't too hellish to move, I would use my elite troops to harry and raid the exhausted enemy units.

Overall, I would grind down the enemy until they flee, surrender, or spring comes and I retreat my undead back to my forts.

Theocratia would appear to be a problem, but several parts of my strategy were included specifically to destroy them.
-blizzards ground their mages
-destroying supply trains and adopting the scorched earth policy would force their casters to rely on their spells to keep their forces fed, wasting caster slots.
-attacking at night disrupts the spell caster's abilityt to study and rest. Lack of food and supplies also hurts them as spell components become scarce... the griffons might openly turn on their masters because their is no food beyond horse and man flesh.

Lordania
-more attacks on supplies, as they have no magical means of making food or anything.
-less disciplined I would hazard a guess, so the terror tactics would have more effects.
-the winter would rip them apart without the healing spells the Theocratians get.

javcs
2007-03-01, 09:59 PM
I'll take Theocratia for this.
Plan 1:
Negotiate an alliance with Doombatia, nominally for defense in the face of the Lordonian army, in reality, to find the locations of the Doombatian high command.
Alternatively, use divinations to locate the DB high command.
Send a sizable detachment of the mounted wizards as part of a 'diplomatic envoy' to DB. Strike the high command hard and all sections simultaneously, decapitating DB. Keep that TC did it quiet, spread propaganda that Lordonia made an unprovoked attack on the peaceful nation of DB, and that they probably plan to make a similar strike against TC or invade DB soon.
Throw support behind a potential leader who would be easy to control. Magically manipulate this new leader into signing a treaty, joining DB as part of TC, make him a regional governor as a reward. If necessary, use illusions to make him appear as though he's King Zod.
Now, combine the best of your siege weapon capabilities into long range, magical siege weapons. Place siege artillery back from the TC(DB) and Lordonian border, but where it can be used to savage invading Lordonian forces, and where it, if absolutely necessary, can be quickly and easily withdrawn to other, prepared positions.
Heavily fortify the Lordonian border, using undead to work nonstop.
Send a strike force, priorities are in maneuverability and striking power, but not just the wizards, into Lordonia, preferably with some of the new, long range, magical siege weapons, use the wizards with this force to locate Lordonian military targets, wasting units in the field and bases when possible to do so, fighting a maneuver war, living off the land of course, civilian structures are to be savaged, but not all the people, after all, nobody can report widespread destruction if they're dead. This will have the effect of sparking civil unrest and discontent with the government in Lordonia from their failure to achieve significant victories, particularly since the strike force is under orders to avoid engagements with Lordonian forces that pose a threat to the force.
Most of the mounted wizards who are not with the army in Lordonia are to be tasked with going deep into Lordonian territory, striking targets of opportunity, particularly large towns, cities, transportation choke points, Lordonian resource infrastructure, and military forces, with the overall objective of disrupting Lordonia to the point where they have difficulty coordinating operations, weakening the resolve of the Lordonians to fight, and ultimately, if things go mostly to plan, launching raids on the Lordonian command structure, with the intent to decap Lordonia, which, in the middle of a war, would be very bad for Lordonia.

There're no doubt improvements that could be made to this.
Plan 2 is essentially the same, except that replace Doombatia with Lordonia, and vice versa, and just crush DB with overwhelming force, primary targets would be DB siege artillery and fortifications for the wizards, simply hitting the siege artillery from altitude just about straight up or from one of the sides or from behind.

Beleriphon
2007-03-01, 11:00 PM
Keep in mind that you are trying to conquer both other countries. Lordonia has one distinct advantage, a population much large then either of the other two, and nation large enough that makes it virtually impossible to effecitvely occupy.

As for exact issues with popluations. Lordonia's king is well liked by the people. Doombatia's lich isn't liked per se, but he "makes the trains run on time" so most people tend to ignore is other excesses. Theocratica is nation ruled by relgion, the vast majority of the population adhere to the national religion (a LN deity/pantheon/what have you) and as such will follow their leadership. The undead in Doombatia made in such a way that a mass raising can be performed over the course of a day, but requires a loyal Doombatian to raise. They are powerful enough that a second level cleric could cause them to flee, but not destroy them.

The exact break down PC vs NPC classes is one PC class of the same level for every 1500 troops. So for every 1500 warriors you will find a a fighter of the same level.

Black Swan
2007-03-02, 01:58 AM
These are my initial impressions.
Doombatia:
They can’t win offensively.
If they take the fight to Lordonia, they can’t beat Lordonia’s force structure. Yes, they have a strong corps of melee warriors. Yes, they have undead shock troopers. They don’t have a good combined arms force. They have 15,000 archers and Lordonia has something like 150,000. That’s a withering amount of firepower. With their low amount of cavalry they probably won’t ever have the intelligence advantage; if your spellcasters are otherwise occupied, cavalry is the main means of intelligence gathering. Also, they can’t take advantage of the shock that a heavy cavalry charge can generate.

If they take the fight to Theocratia they face similar problems. It’s 15,000 archers against 100,000 with the additional problem of Theocratia essentially being able to drop one Arc Light raid per day. It’d help to know how many clerics Theocratia had exactly and what exactly Beleriphon meant by a ‘unit’. If that’s every company, okay, that helps. If it’s every battalion, that doesn’t really help quite as much.

Once they leave their home field they lose their strongest advantage: their awesome defensive works. Even then, that’s not necessarily much of an advantage. If an opponent besieges them, what do they do when their food runs out? Especially with enemy troops holding agriculturally significant pieces of terrain.

Doombatia will have to pick its battles very, very carefully. They have a lot of problems. I don’t like their force structure for offensive operations. It means that to avoid being decimated by archers or wizards, they have to spread out. However, to be effective on the attack, they have to mass and make maximum use of what they have. Also, they don’t have a way to deal with cavalry. They have an infantry corps which can resist the shock of a heavy cavalry charge, but they don’t have pikemen.

Doombatia’s a longshot, unless they get an exceptional number of chances to backstab and betray the other two combatants.

Theocratia:
The small size of their country severely hampers their ability to conduct an offensive. They control maybe 1/6 of the continent if Lordonia controls half and Doombatia controls 1/3. The small size of their country also has severe implications for their defense. They can’t really choose to conduct a defense in depth. On the other hand, it means they can probably focus their defenses on key pieces of terrain. Oh wait, they’re mostly agricultural, so there probably aren’t many places to mount a strong defense because most of the land is probably flat. Their inability to conduct a defense in depth limits the absolute number of soldiers they can use for any offensive.

That said, they have many strong advantages. First, its wizard regiment. This is significant for multiple reasons. First, it’s air power. That means a lot. It means that Doombatia’s fortresses are suddenly a lot less significant. It also means they have the decisive advantage in reconnaissance. Secondly, it’s an Arc Light strike per day. That means that massing one’s troops suddenly gets far riskier.

Overall, Theocratia is a strong contender. I think their basic plan here is to play kingmaker, then backstab their partner.

Lordonia:
Lordonia is my personal favorite to win. They have the combined arms mix and mass to win decisive battles. They can outmass either opponent individually. They have the land area to conduct a defense in depth and trade land for time. That said, they have a difficult fight ahead of them. They have to find a way to overcome a regiment of wizards on one hand, and a hardened corps of veterans, bolsted by fearless undead shock troopers, on the other. For Lordonia, resource management and allocation, logistics, and the implementation of total warfare are key.

Lordonia’s warlords must recognize from the start that their enemies’ armies are not likely to be their actual targets. Doombatia will probably not attack them, and when they fight Doombatia they will likely see the enemy army only when they lay siege to a fortress-city, or when Doombatia’s army appears to break a siege. Theocratia’s strategic situation makes an attack from them unlikely because of the high number of personnel tied down by the requirements of defense.

Doombatia presents the smaller threat and can be left for later. Theocratia is left. Ideally, the ruler of Lordonia cuts a deal with the lord of Doombatia and the two knock off Theocratia from the get-go. That’s probably not going to happen and it makes for a less interesting scenario, so let’s ignore that possibility completely.

Lordonia has two options. The first is decisive battle and the second is a war of attrition.

In the first option, Lordonia uses its superior mass to fix and destroy Theocratia’s army by forcing them to defend a vital point. I don’t believe that Theocratia’s regiment of wizards makes up for a large troop strength advantage. Lordonia’s warlords can minimize the advantage the wizards constitute by using spread-out troop formations and only massing soldiers for assaults at the focal points of battles. Additionally, Lordonia can, because of its landmass, afford to use a minimally-manned defense in depth against potential Doombatian incursions. They can trade land for time with no problem. It’s not an issue, because it can be taken back when Theocratia ceases to be a concern. Theocratia can’t bring its full weight to bear either because defense against a Doombatian incursion ties down some troops. Unlike Lordonia, Theocratia can’t afford to trade land for time. From there, it’s a matter of tactics. Theocratia has the advantage in reconnaissance, but at some point, they won’t be able to avoid a fight. It’s a simple matter of forcing them to retreat until they can retreat no more. Pretty simple, really.

The second option is a war against the land. The first move is an assault into Doombatia, into the region bordering Theocratia. Since Theocratia is agricultural, that area is probably part of Doombatia’s agricultural production. While the troops are there, salt it. No point in not denying Doombatia the use of that land when you move out. Then, use that part of Doombatia as a jumpoff point for a converging assault along multiple axes. Loot, pillage, and salt the land along the advance. This strategy has its risks. It practically invites defeat in detail; however, the reward is worth the risk. Theocratia has so little land mass that wrecking their land will cripple them. Besides, to defeat any of Lordonia’s formations in detail, Theocratia has to completely ignore multiple other formations. This strategy also invites attack from Doombatia. This is also less problematic than one might think. Any land lost can be retaken later; Lordonia has land to spare. Additionally, because of its cavalry advantage Lordonia can attempt to trap Doombatian invaders in a pocket and either force a surrender or destroy them. Depends on how deep the Doombatians go.

Beleriphon
2007-03-02, 02:50 AM
To clarify my previous statment about clerics for Theocratica there is a single cleric or adept (50/50 split) per company. Each company would be about the same size as the one you saw in M*A*S*H.

Jothki
2007-03-02, 03:25 AM
It seems like to me that the obvious first moves would be for Doombatia and Theocratica to gang up on Lordonia, especially since its army is larger than both of theirs combined. Doombatia would have an advantage against the individually weaker Lordonian soldiers, and assuming that it can maintain battlefield control and a greater than one to one kill ratio (which might be reasonable with careful planning), they can keep their troops replenished, without having to worry about their undead being turned. Theocratica would have the advantage of not having to invade Doombatia, and would be able to still defend against Doombatia thanks to being able to rapidly shuffle around the wizards.

Once Lordonia has been weakened, I would expect Theocratica to attempt to ally with Lordonia against Doombatia. Doombatia might try this as well, but assuming that they are raising tons of troops from Lordonian corpses (which may or may not be true, depending on how efficient they are at creating undead), they would have less incentive, since much of Lordonia would end up serving them anyway.

After that, it's a toss up, largely based on how much undead the Doombatians managed to raise and how horribly the Doombatian army does again clerics and flying wizards.

Demented
2007-03-02, 07:36 AM
Lordonia is Scissors
Theocratica is Paper
Doombatia is Rock

Lordonia, however, has the best chance of winning. It simply needs to survive long enough to rub its argiculture and industry together. The resulting powerhouse of Lordonian forces will roll over Theocratica and starve out Doombatia.... Provided the Lordonian people don't sue for peace first, as its borders will be getting a whacking from Doombatia's veterans and Theocratica's substantial army. Unless both Theocratica and Doombatica try to stop Lordonia, its greater production capacity is going to overwhelm and outlast either of the two lesser nations.

As for Theocratica and Doombatia....
T has good mobility and offense in its wizards, but they are few.
They have the same troops as the Lordonians, but fewer in number and they don't have traditional PC-class special forces.
Their troops are replenishable, but their equipment is not. If the battle goes on too long, they'll soon be relying on young peasants.
At best, Theocratica can steal some industry from Lordonia or Doombatia. Doombatia has more industry, and even fortresses that may be possible to use to defend the newly acquired industry.... Otherwise, Theocratica has the lowest chances of victory.

D has better infantry than everyone, but fewer in number, and they have very few archers and cavalry.
Their undead are replenishable, but not as effective as heavy infantry.
Their troops aren't replenishable, but their equipment is, as are the undead.
The best agriculture is in Theocratica, but it's difficult to defend and outside of its fortresses, Doombatia has very weak defense. Doombatia would do better stealing agriculture from Lordonia, especially since they can repeatedly best Lordonia's infantry without worrying about wizard flights. (Until all those troops with a level in Fighter decide to use a bow; then Doombatia can even take on Theocratica.)

Note that while Lordonia has 500 special forces and Theocratica has 1000 wizards, Lordonia's special forces are between 5th and 8th level, while Theocratica's wizards are 5th level at most.

Dausuul
2007-03-02, 09:19 AM
I'd still like to know the exact level breakdown. (Not class breakdown--the difference between a 1st-level warrior and a 1st-level fighter is much less important than the difference between a 1st-level warrior and a 5th-level warrior.) However, at this point I'm going to go with Doombatia, based mainly on their undead mojo.

As King Zod, I'll start by retreating my population to the mountain citadels and using most of my living army on defense. A major offensive by the other nations could dig them out eventually, but it would take a long time and cost them massive casualties. Meanwhile, I personally assemble my undead host and lead it into Lordania.

The undead invasion force has colossal strategic advantages here. They need no supply lines. They can march day and night without stop, which lets them travel three times as fast as any other infantry force and probably twice as fast as cavalry. (Since I'm undead myself, I can keep right up with them.) And they never have to worry about morale.

My initial tactics will be hit-and-run. I'll swoop down on a small border city or town, put everyone to the sword, then have my undead pick up the bodies and as many supplies as they can carry. I then withdraw back to Doombatian territory, where I'll carry out the day-long ritual to turn the corpses into fresh undead; at the same time, I send the captured supplies to beef up my living troops. I'll then repeat this process with each city along the border.

Eventually, I'll be able to garrison those cities with living soldiers and some of my new-made undead. This will expand my territory and I can push further into Lordania. Presumably the new undead will be weaker than the old ones, since they're being made from peasants rather than trained warriors, but they still have the undead advantage, and numbers will start to tell after a while.

The main danger in this early stage is encountering a big Lordanian force that can smash my undead army. I'll scry and scout aggressively to avoid that, and stay on the move at all times while in enemy territory. I never hit a town without checking out the situation carefully first, and I make sure all of my undead have pikes in case I have to face a cavalry charge. Fortunately, I don't have to worry about them breaking when the cavalry comes down on them.

(Also note that if I do find myself trapped by a superior Lordanian force, I will personally go into battle a short way behind the front lines. I have DR 15/bludgeoning and magic, and I'm immune to crits, so the archers can't touch me, and I'll be careful to keep my undead between me and any melee heroes. From there, I can use AoE spells and illusions to target key points of the enemy lines. The only danger here is the possibility of running into that unit of "troubleshooters," which presumably has a fair number of casters. If I start seeing spells coming at me, I'll withdraw immediately. Worst-case, I'm "killed" and have to retreat to my phylactery, which is back at my fortress in the most inaccessible mountains of Doombatia, and start over.)

As my numbers grow, I'll be able to shift to a more substantial offensive. Eventually I can overwhelm Lordania, then turn on Theocratia, which doesn't have enough clerics to stop such a horde.

WrathOfLife
2007-03-02, 09:25 AM
I'd back the Therocratican's. There in for a hard battle but they have a few advantages. Wizards, a small but well equipped and trained army, and religion.

I'll assume each country wish to invade the other. That each has limited means of spying on each other, and that communication is possible over long distances at near instant speeds.

So... the first moves.

If Theocratica wants to win, it has to play smart. The clerics have to talk of the immoral actions of the lordonian's, how they sin and are in general bad people. At the same time they must talk in hushed whispers about the growing evils of Doombatia. While this is going on the Theocractica leadership will begin training civilians in peaceful non-violent resistance (this will be important later). The Theocractica ground forces will begin moving towards the Doombatia and Lordonian combined border. This move is calculated so that neither side is sure who will be invaded.

Theocractica's air force will now be employed... on Doombatia. The idea is to target the leadership, destroying whatever needs to be destroyed to get at the leaders of Doombatia, civilian losses in this situation are acceptable. Doombatia will then be provoked into moving against Theocractica. If there clever they'll move away from my approaching armies and into the heart land of Theocractica, relatively un-opposed, leaving my armies {If they invade} to attempt to oust the remainders from the forts.

However, through al of this Lordonia hasn't being doing nothing. Seeing Theocractica move its troops, would do the logical thing and assume war rasing there own force looking to take advantage of the situation. With there army at the ready, and mine apparently about to invade Doombatia, they should sweep in seeing the chance for a land grab.

Ops. We now have two armies who aren't on exactly good terms, in hostile territory. Remember that peaceful non-violent resistance? Well that now comes into play. Neither side can rely on local food, guides or entertainment. Traps will be every where, and sooner or later they will begin to have conflicts with the opposing army. Full out battle will not be far off from there. The religious conviction of our people will ensure that they keep up the fight, and help to sow mistrust between both sides.

While Doombatia and Lordonia are tearing up Theocractica, our land forces make a sudden turn and push quickly, but quietly through Lordonia, avoiding major cities, roads and trade routes. Once they have made distance, they begin to start a loot and burn system, targeting the small towns and villages. Think of this of a whole country under siege. Every large farm or farming village will be hit, with around 200 of our Wizards supporting this from the air. Civilian losses are a MUST, there should be nasty war crimes also, this is to turn the people against our army.

The remaining 800 Air units will keep up the attacks on Doombatia, the people aren’t a target for us, and we'll be wanting to keep them out of this as much as possible, if need be, try to generate the idea that this is a purely political war, and that we do not wish to disrupt there way of life at all. After all, they care little for undead ruler, just so long as they have a ruler who keeps things going. If possible, when the leadership is removed from the mainlands elect a new leader from the Doombatia population, doesn't matter how they feel about you, just so long as they hate Lordonia more.

By now the Lordonian and Doombatian armies will be tired and frustrated facing a hostile army and a hostile land, they will most likely attempt a cut and burn retreat. Moving back quickly destroying the land left behind. This sadly hurts our people, but serves our purpose nicely. We will assume that both armies are now at 50% operational strength.

Our army meanwhile has being rasing all kinds of hell in Lordonia, if done properly, the army should be looking at massive civilian armies rising up, revolts, civilian disobedience and all round a bad day. This is everything we could want. If our army has done its job properly there would be large scale food shortages with starvation setting in soon. Our army needs to get out of there fast.

Retreating back the way they came, the Theocractica army now moves into Doombatia. This is under the guise of helping the New Doombatian Government remove forces loyal to the evil Lordonia empire, of course what we're actually doing is using our forces to clear out those lovely fort's and take any in-tact for out own use. Hold up in our newly taken forts. We wait for now.

Lordonia will now be in a VERY bad way... There will be hungry armed mobs looking for Theocractican supporters and troops, they will be angry at Lordonian troops for not protecting them, and as stated they will be hungry. What's an angry mob to do? Loot, rape and murder is what. They will have to steal what they need, with the army gone and the civilian population used to living under fear they will be lawless and difficult to mange, murdering anyone who is suspected of helping our armies and hopefully rioting and even fighting the tired returning Lordonian army.

Meanwhile our Doombatia army returns home to find a new government, after an interesting period, which could go for or against us (I'll assume it works our way), the army will accept the new leadership and will talk of there battles against the Lordonians. Then of course, news of civil disorder and infighting from Lordonia will reach Doombatia.

Seeing its chance, Doombatia will move in and take over Lordonia after several very bloodily battles and mass murders. They will attempt to gain and maintain power in a simliar fashion to how they did back in Doombatia, of course its unlikely the people of Lordonia will like that much and will resist, the Doombatian's will most likely restore order by replacing angry civilians with calm happy undead/dead civilians, thus impsiring the others to work harder towards peaice (It really doesn't matter if this works or not). The Doombatia army now away and weakened will only watch as the Theocractican army marches down from there hill top forts and takes over Doombatia, securing the land with there ground forces and places a Theocractian leader in place of our Lordonia-hating Doombatia ruler.


In Lordonia, this time, we go in peacefully sending clerics to build hospitals and schools, and troops to restore law and order with a gentle but firm hand, and most importantly send in our Theocractian refugee's (Who our army enlists on the march, declaring final victory and how faith prevailed yadda yadda yadda) who can use there farming know how to help fight the food shortages... All of the Doombatia soilders would be offered a chance to surrender, showing that the leadership has changed again and they no longer have support for this war. Those who do not surrender will be called tratiors and hunted down to the last man, not that there should be much left of them by now anyway. This will be done by using mixed air/ground tactices. Focusing large firepower on small groups seperated from the whole, then striking the whole in air-raids before finally mopping the rest up after a few weeks of bombardments.

A Theocractian leader will be made figure head of the country under the guise of supervising its renewal as a country, later in a few years when everything is stabilised (maybe our homeland repaired) the 3 countries will sign an alliance to become a Federation, and eventually a republic with Cardinal Korak smugly taking his role as leader of the new Tri-nation republic.


Did i miss anything?

(for those who might wonder, yeah, my plan is more or less to abandon the home-land to both sides and yeah it would take a beating, but the people will have the other lands to move too, while the clerics and adepts work to repair the damage later on).

This was written at 1:06 AM my time, so sorry if it doesn't make sense in places. The reason for the non-violent resistance is so that to counter it, the armies will most likely use violent means of there own, thus proving the clerics right and strengthening not weaking civilian moral and faith in the gods.

Beleriphon
2007-03-02, 09:37 AM
As my numbers grow, I'll be able to shift to a more substantial offensive. Eventually I can overwhelm Lordania, then turn on Theocratia, which doesn't have enough clerics to stop such a horde.

Note, you're undead forces can only be raised in a special ritual requiring loyal doombatian soldiers. Its what makes them better then the average zombie. So raising other countries troops as undead is possible, but they wont be Doombatian Brand Undead (tm).

Dausuul
2007-03-02, 10:10 AM
Note, you're undead forces can only be raised in a special ritual requiring loyal doombatian soldiers. Its what makes them better then the average zombie. So raising other countries troops as undead is possible, but they wont be Doombatian Brand Undead (tm).

Ahhh, okay. I thought you meant I had to have a Doombatian soldier there to perform the ritual--didn't realize you meant I could only do it on the loyal Doombatians. That makes Doombatia a lot more balanced. :)

I assume I also have to abide by the usual Hit Die limitations on non-Doombatian undead, so butchering enemy civilians and raising them into an unstoppable horde is out...

Amphimir Míriel
2007-03-02, 03:36 PM
Endeavor to take control of Australia early in the game, after that is achieved hold up in Siam until the other players weaken each other significantly. Once that's done you can proceed on your conquer of Asia...

And once one holds Asia the game is practically over.

(of course there are disadvantages to this strategy, namely the old adage: "never get involved in a land war in asia", which Bush happily ignored)

Piccamo
2007-03-02, 04:02 PM
That strategy only works if people are stupid and ignore you and you're not playing against people who consider it a win to see you lose.

Amphimir Míriel
2007-03-02, 04:42 PM
That strategy only works if people are stupid and ignore you and you're not playing against people who consider it a win to see you lose.

I was actually trying to play a joke on the "wargamish" scenario of this thread...

Dausuul
2007-03-02, 06:39 PM
Okay, new plan, still as Doombatia.

As King Zod, I'm going to assume that I can choose my spell selection with anything from the SRD. I pick the following spells (also assuming I had to learn animate dead as part of creating Doombatia's undead-making rituals):

Level 1: Mage Armor, Shield, Magic Missile, Charm Person, Magic Aura
Level 2: Invisibility, Knock, Alter Self, Misdirection, Rope Trick
Level 3: Phantom Steed, Dispel Magic, Fly, Major Image
Level 4: Animate Dead, Greater Invisibility, Scrying
Level 5: Teleport, Dominate Person

Presumably the high commands of the other two nations will be well defended against scrying and teleportation, but they can't protect their entire command structure. Using dominate person, major image, and other such tricks, I will do my damndest to stir up trouble between Theocratia and Lordania--always being careful to stay within the bounds of believability; I will exacerbate existing tensions and provoke minor incidents. When dominating people, I'll make sure they die before the duration is up, and I won't make them do anything wildly out of character that might result in other spellcasters investigating.

My main objective here is to get the Theocratians and the Lordanians fighting. I'll offer my assistance to the Lordanians on generous terms. Above all, I want the Theocratian griffon-riders destroyed, and it would make me quite happy if those pesky clerics took heavy casualties as well. If the Lordanians are having trouble wiping the griffons out, I'll dominate the commander of the griffon-riders in the field, and make him lead his forces into a trap. I'll set the trap with my own archers if I have to, though I'd prefer to use Lordania's--there are more of them and I'd rather not risk my own troops.

Once I've rid myself of the only fighting force more mobile than my undead horde, and hopefully done crippling damage to the Theocratians, I'll order my people into the mountain fortresses and take said horde into the field against Lordania, along with a handful of my highest-level living servants (the undead can carry them while they sleep). Some of these servants will act as outriders on phantom steeds, which keeps my army from being caught off guard. They'll spot any force large enough to threaten me well before it spots them.

I will track enemy fighting forces using scrying (I'll pick a random soldier to scry on, so I don't have to worry about anti-scrying spells on the commanders). My tactics are scorched earth with a vengeance. I cut supply lines, lay waste to farmlands, raze poorly defended cities, and terrorize the countryside. I want the enemy demoralized and starving. I'll kill small groups of enemy warriors if I run across them, but I avoid engaging any force comparable to my own.

At this point, Theocratica and Lordania are apt to join forces against me and do one of two things. Either they will concentrate all their efforts on pinning me down and crushing my undead army, or they'll go for Doombatia itself. In the first case, I'll lead them up and down the countryside until their troops are utterly worn out, taking full advantage of the fact that they get tired and I don't. I'll stick to the coastline as much as possible; that way, if I have to, I can send my living buddies off on their phantom steeds, then lead my army into the sea, Pirates of the Caribbean style. If they give up chasing me, I go back to sacking and burning. Otherwise, I'll wear them down by sheer attrition, force marching their soldiers to death.

In the second case (an attack on Doombatia), the Warlord Wadabia has orders to harass the invaders but not engage them in any major battles. He's to fall back into the mountains instead, drawing them after him. Once they're deep into my territory, I'll bring my undead in behind to cut their supply lines. Let them try to forage in the mountains for a while. When their forces are utterly wrecked by hunger and fatigue, Wadabia will bring his men out to engage them while my undead fall on them from behind in a massive nighttime assault.