Sorcerer Spell Selection for mage's duels?

[Caligstro Smith]

I'm making a Sorcerer/Metaphysical Spellshaper/Force Missile Mage, and the character is magic obsessed. He wants to be the best "duelist" he can, where duelist is thought of as 1-vs-1 caster vs caster "duel."

To that end I'm trying to take spells that are good for that. The character is currently level 11 (10th level Sorcerer casting), so I'm mostly interested in 5th level and lower spells, but higher ones are good too for future planning. I've not really played a caster before, so I'm not really familiar with lots of spells? Many of the ones below I found in threads on good sorcerer spells already.

1st:
Magic Missile (B/c Force Missile Mage & I'm focusing on MM feat reducers around this for my primary damage dealing means)
Nervskitter*
Expeditious Retreat, Swift
Feather Fall*
Swift Shield (Force Missile Mage class feature gives shield as immediate action cast x/day)
Power Word: Pain**

2:
Wings of Cover
Arcane Turmoil
See Invisibility
Ray of Stupidity**

3:
Chain Missile (obligatory for Force Missile Mage theme)
Dispel Magic
Battle Magic Perception
Great Thunderclap **

4:
Ruin Delver's Fortune
Force Missile (obligatory for Force Missile Mage theme)
(OR Orb of Force instead)
Solid Fog**
Black Tentacles

5th:
Arcane Fusion
Celerity

6th (when I get there):
Arcane Spellsurge
Greater Dispel Magic
True Seeing

* = Maybe get a (eternal?) wand of this instead?
** = Not sure if I want to take this or not due to low # spells known by Sorcerer, but considering it still


Shadow Cloak (DotU) 5500 gp
Dispelling Cord?
A few Lesser Metamagic Rods?
+1 Twilight Mithril Githcraft Breastplate?
Item of Charisma +X (as high as I can get)

[Sith_Happens]

Orb of Force. It's right there in the "Suggested spells for a Force Missile Mage" sidebar and scales great with metamagic.

[Wacky89]

I wouldn't pick nerveskitter, since you can easily just buy a wand of it instead

[Caligstro Smith]

I wouldn't pick nerveskitter, since you can easily just buy a wand of it instead

Good point, I didn't think of that. Don't you have to be already holding the wand though, before combat, for that to work though?

Speaking of, is it possible to have a wand chamber in a metamagic rod? Since the character is like a metamagic nerd I was going to have quite a few lesser ones and usually just carry those around held most of the time.

[Sudain]

I'm making a Sorcerer/Metaphysical Spellshaper/Force Missile Mage, and the character is magic obsessed. He wants to be the best "duelist" he can, where duelist is thought of as 1-vs-1 caster vs caster "duel."

To that end I'm trying to take spells that are good for that. The character is currently level 11 (10th level Sorcerer casting), so I'm mostly interested in 5th level and lower spells, but higher ones are good too for future planning. I've not really played a caster before, so I'm not really familiar with lots of spells? Many of the ones below I found in threads on good sorcerer spells already.

The ones I already have thought of/found:

1st:
Magic Missile (B/c Force Missile Mage & I'm focusing on MM feat reducers around this)
Nervskitter
Expeditious Retreat, Swift
Swift Shield (Force Missile Mage class feature gives shield as immediate action cast x/day)

2:
Wings of Cover
Arcane Turmoil ???

3:
Chain Missile (obligatory for Force Missile Mage theme)

4:
Ruin Delver's Fortune
Force Missile (obligatory for Force Missile Mage theme)
Solid Fog ???
Black Tentacles ???

5th:
Arcane Fusion

6th (when I get there):
Arcane Spellsurge

I like your idea and the way you are going about it - but... what exactly constitutes a duel here?

Some spells have a range of long(400+ feet), many do not. If he is fine with killing his foe from afar why would he want to get close? Do Save or Die spells Count? Baleful Polymorph comes to mind. Counterspelling seems like a VERY strong spell to have access to(just waste their time). If you are going to use battlefield control spells look at spells that block Line of Effect(Wall line) and spells that block Line of Sight(Cloud line) so they can't target anything.

What assumptions is your character operating under, and why is he doing so?

[Ramza00]

True seeing
Battle magic perception so you can counter spell as a free action

[Malroth]

feeblemind, Enervation, Dimensional Anchor, Disintigrate

[Blackhawk748]

feeblemind, Enervation, Dimensional Anchor, Disintigrate

I second these, nothing worse than having your opponent run out of you. Also may want to add Contigency, its pretty nice for this kind of thing.

For Feats, id recommend Occular Spell. Load up Finger of Death (which i recommend) or Wings of Flurry (cant recommend this enough) and laugh as you fire death eye lazers.

[The Grue]

I second these, nothing worse than having your opponent run out of you.

I would think that, in the context of a 1v1 "duel", forcing the other party to flee would constitute a victory.

Why is it that D&D players don't consider anything less than complete wholesale slaughter to be a win? I don't think I've ever seen a party allow an attacking force to retreat.

[Blackhawk748]

I would think that, in the context of a 1v1 "duel", forcing the other party to flee would constitute a victory.

Why is it that D&D players don't consider anything less than complete wholesale slaughter to be a win? I don't think I've ever seen a party allow an attacking force to retreat.

I was thinking in a general context, in a duel just let him run.

And i dont let the enemy run because its came back to bite me in my rear end more than once, so i simply wreck them so they cant get me later.

[(Un)Inspired]

You're gonna want celerity ASAP. As a sorcerer you're already behind in the game of action economy (no automatic familiar or planar bound allies. Less options for crafted contingent spells, no free feats for quicken metamagic). Not having celerity basically ensures you'll lose every caster duel your character will ever get into.

[fishyfishyfishy]

A dueling Sorcerer who doesn't know Dispel Magic or it's greater counterpart? Probably not a good idea to skip that spell...

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Power Word: Pain (1st, RotD), and keep in mind that you can cast it multiple times on the same target for multiple d6's per round, and that it's ongoing damage so it forces a Concentration check to cast. Combined with Fell Drain it can inflict a negative level every round depending on your reading of that feat.

Great Thunderclap (3rd, SC) forces a Will save vs stun, a Reflex save vs being knocked prone, and a Fort save vs being deafened. Note that deafened (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#deafened) characters have a 20% chance to automatically fail casting any spell with a verbal component.

Some kind of summoning spell, especially one that can get something with Improved Grab, such as Summon Monster IV for a Lion or Giant Praying Mantis. Summon Undead is also decently useful, as it can get Shadows, Allips, Wights, etc. as well as high-HP meat shields. I would definitely include (Greater) Dispel Magic for this reason, as Arcane Turmoil can only get rid of a single summoned creature at a time unless you (Lesser Rod of) Chain Spell it.

Take Ancestral Relic and make it a custom Runestaff, and put whatever spells you want on it. The base item should be an Elvencraft Composite Longbow with three Wand Chambers. As long as you're holding it you can activate any of those three wands it contains as though you were holding them.

Arcane Disciple or the Domain Access ACF in CC for the Spell domain gets you Silence. You can ready an action to cast that if they cast a spell with a verbal component, and cast it on a point in space so they don't get a saving throw or SR against it. Their spell will automatically be interrupted and ruined but still spent, and they'll be forced to move out of the silence before they're able to cast anything else with a verbal component. You can also use wands of this and put it on the above Runestaff for additional daily uses.

[Caligstro Smith]

I like your idea and the way you are going about it - but... what exactly constitutes a duel here?

Some spells have a range of long(400+ feet), many do not. If he is fine with killing his foe from afar why would he want to get close? Do Save or Die spells Count? Baleful Polymorph comes to mind. Counterspelling seems like a VERY strong spell to have access to(just waste their time). If you are going to use battlefield control spells look at spells that block Line of Effect(Wall line) and spells that block Line of Sight(Cloud line) so they can't target anything.

What assumptions is your character operating under, and why is he doing so?

Generally a duel would be thought of as an explicitly declared challenge where you begin without buffs. You would start at medium range from each other. It would not be against the rules to kill your opponent, but for your average duel it would be extremely unsporting to go out of your way to try to do so. Win conditions will depend on the specific duel, but could be anything from first blood/damage (or first hit, perhaps if it was agreed to limit only to non-lethal spells), to yield/unconsciousness/death (if the terms were settled for this condition. It would be a very serious duel to have such a term though).

Besides that pretty much anything goes in a mage's duel. You can use non-magical means of fighting too (melee, bows, w/e), but again, unless your method of casting is related to that (ranger, duskblade, arcane archer, etc), it's sorta like admitting that your not as good a caster, so you have to do something else to win.

However, the specific terms of any duel can be settled on beforehand, so the above may vary. (Different starting range, win conditions, banned X, lethal/non-lethal, pre-buffs, bring in equipment or not, use non-magical means or not, etc).

Also keep in mind that this is all his idea of a duel, and generally in the campaign world I have no guarantee (yet at least) that there are any generally agreed upon terms for a duel (mage's or otherwise), so his opponents might not always share his opinions on what is sporting/unsporting/pride or may "cheat" by agreeing to terms and then breaching them.

About counterspell: So I didn't realize that I couldn't use Arcane Turmoil to do general counterspelling like you can with Dispel Magic. I -ALSO- didn't realize that Dispel Magic is a 3rd level Sorc/Wiz spell; I thought it was 4th for some reason.

Wings of Cover gets him the ability to block line-of-effect immediately as needed, and I was also going to have a Shadow Cloak for duels that allow outside items, for more immediate action (or non-action-when-you-are-attacked like with Shadow Cloak) responses to avoid spells. For walls and fogs and stuff, wouldn't it be problematic that I'm also blocking my OWN line of sight/effect to the opponent? And I won't know when/where they'll come out of the effect?

1st:
Magic Missile (B/c Force Missile Mage & I'm focusing on MM feat reducers around this for my primary damage dealing means)
Nervskitter*
Expeditious Retreat, Swift
Feather Fall*
Swift Shield (Force Missile Mage class feature gives shield as immediate action cast x/day)
Power Word: Pain**

2:
Wings of Cover
Arcane Turmoil
See Invisibility
Ray of Stupidity**

3:
Chain Missile (obligatory for Force Missile Mage theme)
Dispel Magic
Battle Magic Perception
Great Thunderclap **

4:
Ruin Delver's Fortune
Force Missile (obligatory for Force Missile Mage theme)
(OR Orb of Force instead)
Solid Fog**
Black Tentacles

5th:
Arcane Fusion
Celerity

6th (when I get there):
Arcane Spellsurge
Greater Dispel Magic
True Seeing

* = Maybe get a (eternal?) wand of this instead?
** = Not sure if I want to take this or not due to low # spells known by Sorcerer, but considering it still


Shadow Cloak (DotU) 5500 gp
Dispelling Cord?
A few Lesser Metamagic Rods?
+1 Twilight Mithril Githcraft Breastplate?
Item of Charisma +X (as high as I can get)

I've updated the OP with these lists too

[Sudain]

Also keep in mind that this is all his idea of a duel, and generally in the campaign world I have no guarantee (yet at least) that there are any generally agreed upon terms for a duel (mage's or otherwise), so his opponents might not always share his opinions on what is sporting/unsporting/pride or may "cheat" by agreeing to terms and then breaching them.

For walls and fogs and stuff, wouldn't it be problematic that I'm also blocking my OWN line of sight/effect to the opponent? And I won't know when/where they'll come out of the effect?


For fogs and walls - see below.

Okay I'm going to assume that I'm a caster your going to go against. My mentality and tactics will be based upon a survivalist. I'm going to lie, cheat or use anything I need to to win. If the it's first blood, I'm going to hire a spell caster before hand to cast suggestion on you to allow me to go first because your that good. If I get to choose the place/time before hand I'm going to hire some people to dig a couple pits out in the street and disguise them. If the range is medium I'm going to walk to 300 feet away and say that's my medium range - and if you can't hit me from there you should come back in a couple levels. I'm going to pay someone to figure out what spells you can cast - a mugging or a hit before hand. Outside of dirty tricks - I know you are a caster, I'm going to fight and deny you based upon the things casters rely upon.


Save of Dies -
Blindness/Deafness(Fort - fail and I win)
Web(Entangled - 20. feet grants me total cover - no LoE or LoS)
Stinking Cloud(Fort - fail and you can only move. Cloud to play hide and seek)
Sleet storm(Massive area - slows you down and blocks LoS - this grants me 1-2 free turns)
Solid Fog(No save - slow and blocks LoS)
Cloudkill(Combine with something that blocks movment(Web?) and you are going to die unless you can dispell it)
Feeblemind(Might not kill you but if I get a free turn sure)
Baleful Polymorph(Fort save to turn you in to something without hands or a voice, then a will to see if you stay a PC)

HP Damage -
Magic Missile(Accuracy/Force)
Fireball(AoE/Fire/Long-range)
Black Tenticals(AoE/Grappled/Strangulation)

Tools:
Shield
Resist Energy
Dispel Magic
Arcane Sight
Resilient Sphere
Dimension Door
Greater Invisibility
Nightmare(I'll be casting this the night before because I'm interested in winning)
Interposing hand(Force)
Wall of Ice


Spell List for an 11th Level Sorc:
Level 1: Magic Missile,Silent Image,Grease,Erase,Obsuring Mist
Level 2: Blindness/Deafness,Web,Resist Energy,Gaseous Form,Pyrotechnics
Level 3: Fireball,Stinking Cloud,Dispel Magic,Arcane Sight
Level 4: Greater Invisibility,Dimension Door,Wall of Ice
Level 5: Baleful Polymorph, Cloudkill

Cool thing is this spell list is actually pretty good for adventuring as well. :)




My tactics are simple - I am going to ensure superior mobility for myself, while throwing status conditions on you until you run out of things to dispel status conditions. When I get a chance I will pop off Save of Dies and AoEs. Then I baring those I will try walking up and just shanking you. My goal is NOT to sling damaging spells back and forth - but to undermine your ability to hurt me and then kill you without risking myself.
Improved mobility - Greater Invisibility and Dimension Door, Gaseous Form.
Reduced Mobility - Web, Wall of Ice, Grease.
Defensive - Dispel Magic, Resist Energy, Obscuring Mist.
Reduced Sight - Web, Blindness/Deafness,Silent Image, Stinking Cloud, Obsuring mist, Pyrotechnics
Damage - Fireball, Magic Missle
Save of Die - Blindness/Deafness



Yes, clouds will also block your LoS to your target. You won't know where or when they will exit the cloud. And none of those are a problem. With one person inside a cloud, and one person outside, at any given positioning the person inside the cloud has a 50% chance of exiting in a position they can't be observed. If you think they exited on the other side of the cloud, MOVE and ready an action to shoot them if the person comes out of the cloud. After all, their objective to to regain LoS to shoot you - they WANT to come out. So let them and when they come out and try to cast - hurt them forcing a concentration check. It's not perfect, but it's not trivial either.



Ever try throwing a fireball against a stone wall? Or suddenly be trapped in an area FAR smaller than you want it to be to use your AoEs? Yeah... walls can do that and are a pain to break down. :)


What is the strategy you plan on using to win? (I'm not trying to come across as mocking - I'm asking for you to articulate).

[Vogonjeltz]

I'm making a Sorcerer/Metaphysical Spellshaper/Force Missile Mage, and the character is magic obsessed. He wants to be the best "duelist" he can, where duelist is thought of as 1-vs-1 caster vs caster "duel."

To that end I'm trying to take spells that are good for that. The character is currently level 11 (10th level Sorcerer casting), so I'm mostly interested in 5th level and lower spells, but higher ones are good too for future planning. I've not really played a caster before, so I'm not really familiar with lots of spells? Many of the ones below I found in threads on good sorcerer spells already.


Absent the use of the Extra Spell feat (which I can not recommend highly enough for a Sorcerer), here is my list (you could work many different setups however, an modify as necessary for the force spells)

@your level
0th - 9 spells: Read Magic, Detect Magic, Detect Poison, Light, Prestidigitation, Ray of Frost, Touch of Fatigue, Mage Hand, Arcane Mark
1st - 5 spells: Shield, Ray of Enfeeblement, True Strike, Ray of Clumsiness, Ray of Flame
2nd - 5 spells: Ray of Ice, Ray of Stupidity, Resist Energy, Rainbow Beam,
3rd - 4 spells: Dispel Magic, Protection from Energy, Rainbow Blast, Hold Person
4th - 3 spells: Lesser Globe of Invulnerability, Evard's Black Tentacles, Enervation
5th - 1 spell: Duel Ward

@up to 20th
4th - 1 more spell: Polymorph
5th - 3 more spells: Prismatic Ray, Greater Blink, Baleful Polymorph
6th - 3 spells: Disintigrate, Greater Dispel Magic, Ruby Ray of Reversal
7th - 3 spells: Limited Wish, Prismatic Spray, Spell Turning
8th - 3 spells: Moment of Prescience, Prismatic Wall, Power Word Stun
9th - 3 spells: Imprisonment, Mordenkainen's Disjunction, Power Word Kill

The basis of this setup:
You only learn spells that can be used often, any spell that lasts for a significant period of time is just a waste of a spell known, buy a scroll/runestaff/staff if you must have it. I also tend to avoid any costly material components because reasons.