Hard Choice

[loodwig]

So, I've made a few "help me out guys, I'm sort of new at this" posts in here, and the community has been exceptionally helpful and friendly. Thank you.

However, the major impetus I had to coming in here and asking questions is that I had one particular member with several years of GM and specifically pathfinder experience who harshly critiqued nearly every week's session. Our group has been going for about four months now, which is longer than any campaign I've participated in, and people are fairly reliable about showing up. Worse still, this player is one of two guys I met at a local game store that meets for weekly PFS modules, and as such is the friend I made that introduced me to five of the other six sitting across from me at the table.

Now a little about me. My day job is lead front end development at a significant company that places me as one of three people in charge of 30 or so software developers located in the United States and elsewhere. On a professional level, if I had a co-worker that continued to present a negative attitude for several weeks, I'd write him up, and eventually move to have him terminated. No matter how productive and no matter how much I like the guy, a negative person will destroy a group. More than my own performance as a developer, my performance as a leader will dictate the ability of my team and myself to stay in business and not get collectively sacked by the powers that be. It's a hard choice, but a problem worker must be culled and quickly.

Role Playing is not my job. I've been a developer for approaching two decades, and I've been a GM for approaching six months. A loss of a job is a substantial change that threatens the safety and security of myself and my family. Pathfinder is a game played purely for entertainment. That said, my gut says I need to kick my friend out of the group, even if it threatens the very existence of the group.

Without literally spelling out the details of his latest tirade, I once again solicit the advice of this good community to see how you would handle it. How have you dealt with these situations in the past, and what advice would you give me now? Should I just ignore his complaints, or should I show him the door? Should I attempt an assertive come-to-jesus talk with him in which I basically state his critique is no longer welcome, since it's consistently full of bile and frankly unhelpful? Should I just go play something else? I'm tired and I want this resolved decisively.

[ElenionAncalima]

With a problem player the first two step should always be:

1. Consider ways in which you may be the problem. Are some of his criticisms valid? Do other players seem to agree with some of his critiques? Of course, since you have only one player being so consistentely negative, odds are the bulk of the problem is on his end. However, even if you disagree with him, understanding where he is coming from will make it much easier to have a non-confrontational conversation with him.

2. Always talk to the player! Try to do this in an as unconfronational way as possible. Perhaps he thinks he is being helpful. Perhaps he doesn't realize he is expressing complaints in an deconstructive way. Perhaps he has been in a bad mood due to personal reasons and he doesn't realize he has been taking it out on the group. He may very well just be a jerk, but I would give him the benefit of the doubt until you hear his defense.

Personally, I would never boot a player until I had completed both of those steps. Checking with your players may also be an important step. If they don't percieve the guy as a problem, they may consider you unreasonable for booting him.

[hymer]

What do the other players think about your game? About the player? About his complaints?
What sort of complaints does he make? Is he dissatisfied with the story? With your rulings? With the other players?

[Telonius]

I generally agree with the other posters - get some outside perspective. Ask some of the other gamers, separately and privately, what they'd like to see more of (and less of) in the campaign. (Phrase it like that, too; start from the premise that you want them to have more fun and the game to be more awesome, and need their help to do it). Maybe Problem Player is just saying what they haven't felt confident in saying; maybe not. Either way it's good to check in with the rest of the group from time to time. This might be a good time to ask them all what they think of Problem Player, and if they're comfortable (or not) in having him in your group. If the rest of the group wants him gone, get him gone.

Once you have a little bit of perspective (and assuming he doesn't have a date with the front walkway), talk to Problem Player separately. If you've determined that any of the critiques are "real" ones, let him know which changes you'll be making. But also make it clear to him that being rude about it is not the best way to get your attention.

[loodwig]

That's all excellent feedback.

I've ended each session with "Hey, did you all have fun? What was your favorite part? What could I have done better?" Consistently I get an essay from the one difficult player, and sometimes I get some critique from others... usually it's stuff like "No enemies with SR, that sucked that my glitterdust didn't go through... hahah just kidding." Most of the time it's been, "Nah dude, I can't think of anything. This is seriously fun, best group I've been in ever."

I also sent an email out to other members of the group that know him and are not currently married to him, and solicited their feedback. So far what I've received is shock ranging from "Dude, I don't know what this guy's beef is but he needs to get his panties out of a bunch. He's a guest in your home, and needs to show some respect" to "Yeah, he can be a bitch sometimes. I'd just ignore him."

I'll wait to hear more of course, but what I'm leaning to is just having a long talk in person with him in several days, and seeing if he wants to continue coming over.

[Brookshw]

At this time booting doesn't seem appropriate. Some good feedback has been offered so far which I hope helps.

Does he contribute to the fun during the game?
Is there some validity to his feedback? Can you befriend the bear so to speak, tell him your interested and discuss it later in the week via email? Attitudes improve when people feel they're being listened to, and if one in ten helps you improve as a dm, hey, you'll be up one!
Don't take it personally, you can't please everyone.

If you can't find a positive and he's hurting the overall enjoyment after talking to him and the group, then its time to be frank, tell him how he's impacting things. If that doesn't work I'd suggest its time to point him to the door.

[Slipperychicken]

Is this guy aware that his attitude is problematic?

[Segev]

Is he only launching at the end, when you ask for feedback, or is he down and negative throughout the game? The former without the latter could be him thinking he's just answering your question. The latter is more likely to actually cause the game's mood to plummet.

Have you spoken with him about it privately? It can be tricky to broach the subject without making it seem confrontational, but you should try to find out, from him, if his tirades are expressing ire and a desire that the game be radically different than it is, or are meant to be a laundry list of possible ways it could improve. The "laundry list" is likely not meant to be exhaustively followed, but just to be a fast but thorough expression of things he thinks could be better. If it's the former, however, you need to discuss it with him and ask him to not just say what's wrong, but what he thinks could be done better. And focus, where possible, on what he does like about it, as well.

If he can't talk about it without ranting, as gently as possible you should ask him if he's enjoying the game. If he isn't, but you're sure the others are, you might just have to let him go. I wouldn't boot him, just yet, but I would remind him that he isn't obligated to play if he's not having fun.

[loodwig]

Is he only launching at the end, when you ask for feedback, or is he down and negative throughout the game?
He's not negative during the game (usually), but in this case he left abruptly before we concluded the campaign for the evening, and his comments were unsolicited.


Have you spoken with him about it privately?
I haven't confronted him yet, but probably will do so today. After having more feedback from other players, I'm thinking his feelings are a personal grudge against me. As to why, I haven't the slightest idea, but this passive aggressive behavior masked within the game sucks out any possibility of fun from me. Considering the time and money investment, I can find other ways to have fun, possibly continuing the campaign without him and anyone else who leaves out of principle.


If he can't talk about it without ranting, as gently as possible you should ask him if he's enjoying the game.
I think this is probably the best course of action. Days later, still offended, but no where near as angry, I don't foresee an outcome that ends with reconciliation. As much as it pains me to consider the outcome, this may just end the campaign and a few friendships in the process. I hate that it is this petty, but as I reflect on his behavior over the last 6 months, I've realized that his behavior is largely abusive. I've tolerated him too long, and in doing so I've set a precedent that it is acceptable. That is my fault, but it is not a mistake I must continue making.

I'll call him, and using a cold and assertive tone lay out the riot act after (and if) I get a straight answer. If I don't hear so much as an apology from him for his behavior, he will no longer be welcome in my home. We'll see what happens after that.

[Stormageddon]

So it's been my experience that when a game is bad they tend not to make the effort to show up for group. Showing up isn't nothing. You've got to get in your car; hop on a bus, petal you bike, walk/run, or whatever you're into. Meaning that even though your friend is being harsh about your DMing style. He is still making the choice to show up.

That means he really doesn't think your game is all that bad, but maybe he is complaining for some other reason. E.I. Thinking he is making himself look better by putting down your game; Some slight he imagines in game towards him; Jealously so on and so forth.

Not really advice on what you should do, but maybe some helpful insight.

[loodwig]

So it's been my experience that when a game is bad they tend not to make the effort to show up for group. Showing up isn't nothing. You've got to get in your car; hop on a bus, petal you bike, walk/run, or whatever you're into. Meaning that even though your friend is being harsh about your DMing style. He is still making the choice to show up.

That means he really doesn't think your game is all that bad, but maybe he is complaining for some other reason. E.I. Thinking he is making himself look better by putting down your game; Some slight he imagines in game towards him; Jealously so on and so forth.

Not really advice on what you should do, but maybe some helpful insight.

Actually, this was far closer to the truth than I had imagined. I spent the weekend having a beer and chatting in the nice weather, and basically called him on his bs. His strongest arguments and my rebuttals were:

"Well, I've been GM'ing for a while, and I'll tell you this is not how I'd do things. You're not utilizing some key monster abilities, while making up others, and you're allowing players to get away with what really is cheating." "That's noted, but you should know by now that I use monsters as templates, not as specific opponents. I can and always do add and remove abilities at will, especially if combat is going badly quickly. For example, The demons you fought could have turned invisible, taken you out of initiative, and killed you in your sleep, whereas what I wanted was tough enemies that were effectively henchmen. As to the players cheating, I often don't know they are abusing a feat, etc, until after they do it (I look it up later). I'll allow a small amount of cheating if it keeps the game moving, and there's nothing saying I won't cheat back if I feel they're abusing their playstyle."

"Well, I know us introverts are having a hard time competing with the extroverts on the team. If you're not hearing complaints from them it's because they aren't speaking up." "No, I'm certain they aren't, because I asked. They flat out said they disagree with your critique and while they had minor complaints about this encounter or that, they're having enough fun to keep coming every week for 4 months, and said they would do so without you. And honestly, if you aren't having a good time, you don't have to come. I won't take it personally, a 6 player party is difficult to manage if you're introversion gives you issues in groups. However other introverts have told me that they just take it on themselves to speak out. So honestly, no matter how you look at it, this isn't my problem, it's yours."

He had no further complaints, apologized for blowing up at me, and plans on showing up for the next session. So while I don't like being this confrontational, I'm relieved to find that an assertive response that doesn't attack the person worked out very well.

And thank you, again, everyone who gave advice.

[137beth]

Actually, this was far closer to the truth than I had imagined. I spent the weekend having a beer and chatting in the nice weather, and basically called him on his bs. His strongest arguments and my rebuttals were:

"Well, I've been GM'ing for a while, and I'll tell you this is not how I'd do things. You're not utilizing some key monster abilities, while making up others, and you're allowing players to get away with what really is cheating." "That's noted, but you should know by now that I use monsters as templates, not as specific opponents. I can and always do add and remove abilities at will, especially if combat is going badly quickly. For example, The demons you fought could have turned invisible, taken you out of initiative, and killed you in your sleep, whereas what I wanted was tough enemies that were effectively henchmen. As to the players cheating, I often don't know they are abusing a feat, etc, until after they do it (I look it up later). I'll allow a small amount of cheating if it keeps the game moving, and there's nothing saying I won't cheat back if I feel they're abusing their playstyle."

"Well, I know us introverts are having a hard time competing with the extroverts on the team. If you're not hearing complaints from them it's because they aren't speaking up." "No, I'm certain they aren't, because I asked. They flat out said they disagree with your critique and while they had minor complaints about this encounter or that, they're having enough fun to keep coming every week for 4 months, and said they would do so without you. And honestly, if you aren't having a good time, you don't have to come. I won't take it personally, a 6 player party is difficult to manage if you're introversion gives you issues in groups. However other introverts have told me that they just take it on themselves to speak out. So honestly, no matter how you look at it, this isn't my problem, it's yours."

He had no further complaints, apologized for blowing up at me, and plans on showing up for the next session. So while I don't like being this confrontational, I'm relieved to find that an assertive response that doesn't attack the person worked out very well.

And thank you, again, everyone who gave advice.

Well, it sounds like things are going to work out, which shows the power of talking it out.
However, that's only if he actually improves. You'll find out after next session...

[Brookshw]

I'm thrilled to hear it ended so constructively! Glad things worked out for you :smallbiggrin:

[Segev]

Good luck!

As a passing word of advice just from your posting of one of his complaints, I would make some special effort during game to prod him for input. Be aware of how much he's participating, and ask him for feedback.

Regarding the alleged cheating/misuse of feats/features/spells/whatever, you've probably got the right of it for during-the-game, but you want to talk to those who misuse abilities, much as you did this player about his attitude, after the game. Don't treat it as an IC problem to respond to with "cheating" of your own; make sure they know what the rules say and make sure they know you know what they say. Come to an agreement on what they mean, if the player thinks it means something other than what you do. Even be willing, if needs be, to let them swap out a feat or spell choice if they discover it is useless the way you wish to run it.

Assume they're making a mistake if at all possible; it will avoid recrimination and bad feelings. Even if they're cheating on purpose, give them the "out" when you reveal you've caught them, and it generally will go more smoothly. (If you detect a pattern of rampant cheating to the point that it's harming the game, then confront them about it, but if it's just an ability here or there that's misinterpreted, I'd correct each incident as courteously as possible.)

You might also let your friend, if his attitude does improve, be a rules-referee. While you don't have to go with his interpretation every time during a game, if he happens to know a rule off the top of his head and it will prevent something from going screwball, run with his ruling for the moment and (as always) check it later when you have time.

[loodwig]

Regarding the alleged cheating/misuse of feats/features/spells/whatever, you've probably got the right of it for during-the-game, but you want to talk to those who misuse abilities, much as you did this player about his attitude, after the game. Don't treat it as an IC problem to respond to with "cheating" of your own; make sure they know what the rules say and make sure they know you know what they say. Come to an agreement on what they mean, if the player thinks it means something other than what you do. Even be willing, if needs be, to let them swap out a feat or spell choice if they discover it is useless the way you wish to run it.

I've allowed swapping a few times. Case and point, my fighter was trying to use vicious strike on every attack. I told her she couldn't do that, to which she felt her character was nerfed as a result. I let her take a different feat, and told her how Vicious strike worked as I understood it (and therefore how it worked in my campaign). Ultimately, she ended up grabbing Vicious strike at lvl 7 anyway, and it worked out very well. Never have I felt cheating was intentionally deceptive or selfish: always a misunderstanding of incredibly complicated rules.

I've always disliked the "It's a good whatever now, but it will become useless in 5 levels" aspect of the game. For example, let's say someone buys some excellent composite long bow that is 2 str for damage. The same person later gets a belt of giants strength and now wants to have a 3 str composite longbow (mind you, this isn't magical enchantment). The rules state this is a different bow. I say "Meh, pay the difference... the guy takes your old bow at equal trade, or just starts layering on wood, or lampshades whatever." So if I'm cool with this decidedly non-tournament style play, I'm okay with allowing a respec. After all, I want them to have fun and like their characters, and they could just as well re-roll at any point for much more effort than I care to spend on either of us. Maybe that makes me an easy GM, but... who cares?


You might also let your friend, if his attitude does improve, be a rules-referee. While you don't have to go with his interpretation every time during a game, if he happens to know a rule off the top of his head and it will prevent something from going screwball, run with his ruling for the moment and (as always) check it later when you have time.

I think that's a good way of validating his feelings. By contrast, there's another player who, IMO, is just as experienced, but no where near as picky about rules violations. This means I can effectively have a tribunal of rule experts, which will allow me to make better judgements in the future, consulting the "experts" and asking on here as well.

[draken50]

I've never let rules get in the way of a good game, and the kind of stuff you just mentioned really does seem like the kind of thing that might annoy a person overly familiar with running games.

As a GM now, I've had problems in games of being frustrated with the way games have been run. Ultimately, I never complained about it. I suppose it would probably be more difficult were it the same system. I guess I could see concern that player expectations would be changed by your games, when playing his.

This is not to say it is correct, in fact it's quite the opposite, more... for the sake of understanding I suppose. So, good job talking to him about it. It's your game to run your way, and it's not at all wrong to adhere to that.