3.PF - ToB classes use Martial Lore for Diamond Mind and other Concentration checks?

[AnonymousPepper]

I'm running a 3.PF game with some higher-op/knowledgeable players.

It hasn't come up with the PCs yet, but I suspect if one of the melee beatsticks happens to die, it may... ToB classes are, like everything else, still a thing (and, hell, I've used a few against the PCs in the early levels). Concentration, however, has been explicitly removed as a skill, and so for obvious reasons I don't want to bring that back just for them.

My thought, and that of my co-DM, was to key any Concentration checks that ToB class might take off of their Martial Lore ranks instead, that being another unique ToB skill (and incidentally one that was very underused).

What does GitP think of this?

[Thanatosia]

Yeah, seems perfectly reasonable in light of Concentrations removal.

My bigger question, is why was concentration removed? Are casters now unable to cast defensively and automatically fail any cast if they are hit with an AOO (or normal attack in the case of full round cast spellls)? I understand a lot of people want to nerf the heck out of the big bad T1 casters, but that would seem to have a lot of collateral damage to more balanced caster classes. Or did you go the other way and buff casters by making concentration checks automatic? What about Combat Casting Feat - does it do anything now? Do you still require it as a pre-req for a large number of prestige classes even if it does nothing? What about spells and effects that cause casters to need to make a concentration cast everytime they try to cast a spell like 'Buzzing Bee' (spell compendium) - seems a bit OP to make a lv 1 spell into a complete no-save caster shutdown.

[IAmTehDave]

I'm running a 3.PF game with some higher-op/knowledgeable players.

It hasn't come up with the PCs yet, but I suspect if one of the melee beatsticks happens to die, it may... ToB classes are, like everything else, still a thing (and, hell, I've used a few against the PCs in the early levels). Concentration, however, has been explicitly removed as a skill, and so for obvious reasons I don't want to bring that back just for them.

My thought, and that of my co-DM, was to key any Concentration checks that ToB class might take off of their Martial Lore ranks instead, that being another unique ToB skill (and incidentally one that was very underused).

What does GitP think of this?

1) Minor usage note: I believe the forums are called "The Playground" and the titular Giant is, in fact, Mr Burlew. So most people say "What does The Playground think of this?"

2) The problem with using the Martial Lore skill instead of Concentration is that Martial Lore is Spellcraft for ToB.* You might want to consider just allowing martials to use the spellcaster-style Concentration check (using INT for Warblade and WIS for Swordsage)**. It'll end up, in most cases, as higher than their respective Saves (just like in 3.5) or damage. (for the strike(s?)) The only thing that they won't be able to do is make custom +skill items, but I think there might be items that give bonuses to concentration checks anyway.

Edit2:
*and it uses INT, instead of Con
** - or just use Con for both, to fit closer to 3.5 ToB
Edit1:

My bigger question, is why was concentration removed? Are casters now unable to cast defensively and automatically fail any cast if they are hit with an AOO (or normal attack in the case of full round cast spellls)? I understand a lot of people want to nerf the heck out of the big bad T1 casters, but that would seem to have a lot of collateral damage to more balanced caster classes. Or did you go the other way and buff casters by making concentration checks automatic? What about Combat Casting Feat - does it do anything now? Do you still require it as a pre-req for a large number of prestige classes even if it does nothing?
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic#TOC-Concentration

I think Concentration was removed as a skill for a couple reasons (and this is entirely my opinion)
1) Having the skill is too punishing for low-skillpoint casters, as it forces one of their very precious skill points/level into Concentration (at low-op)
2) at higher op, Concentration as a skill is almost negligible, considering all the ways to get bonuses to skills (custom item of +I Win, for instance)
3) It's a stick, as opposed to a carrot, telling spellcasters to stick to the class. Note that it's based on your caster level, and can be different for, say, two sides of a theurge. (Whereas in 3.5 the concentration skill was shared between the two sides)
4) Almost no one but casters used it in OGL content. So folding it into the base spellcasting rules removes some of the fiddlyness of the classes. Maybe. (I'd argue it adds, but I'm not a major spellcaster fan in D&D anyway)

[Kantolin]

Are casters now unable to cast defensively and automatically fail any cast if they are hit with an AOO (or normal attack in the case of full round cast spellls)?

That one I do know - there is still casting defensively, it functionally presumes that everyone has maximum ranks in concentration. The rule can be found here (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic#TOC-Cast-Defensively), or:


Casting Defensively

If you want to cast a spell without provoking any attacks of opportunity, you must make a concentration check (DC 15 + double the level of the spell you're casting) to succeed. You lose the spell if you fail.

Complete with a table. Concentration is now d20+Ability Score modifier.

I do second using martial lore instead.

[IAmTehDave]

casting defensively (...) functionally presumes that everyone has maximum ranks in concentration.

Also that Concentration is not a class skill for anyone, is a completely different skill for every caster class you have, each using a different stat modifier.

[John Longarrow]

When I tried this out, the solution we came up with was Initiator level +3 + CON. This tied it to how good of a Warblade/Crusader/Sword Sage they were without giving them another skill to drop points on.

It worked really well at lower levels without opening it to some of the skill abuses you can otherwise come up with.

[The Insanity]

We just substitute it with Perception.

[Psyren]

1) Minor usage note: I believe the forums are called "The Playground" and the titular Giant is, in fact, Mr Burlew. So most people say "What does The Playground think of this?"

GitP is the name of the forum/site and we refer to it as such pretty often, so that's fine. Rich by contrast is always The Giant.



I think Concentration was removed as a skill for a couple reasons (and this is entirely my opinion)
1) Having the skill is too punishing for low-skillpoint casters, as it forces one of their very precious skill points/level into Concentration (at low-op)
2) at higher op, Concentration as a skill is almost negligible, considering all the ways to get bonuses to skills (custom item of +I Win, for instance)
3) It's a stick, as opposed to a carrot, telling spellcasters to stick to the class. Note that it's based on your caster level, and can be different for, say, two sides of a theurge. (Whereas in 3.5 the concentration skill was shared between the two sides)
4) Almost no one but casters used it in OGL content. So folding it into the base spellcasting rules removes some of the fiddlyness of the classes. Maybe. (I'd argue it adds, but I'm not a major spellcaster fan in D&D anyway)

This is a pretty good list. I would say #2 was probably the most pressing concern, because one of PF's goals was to make casting in melee harder (higher DC, Step Up in core, no more skill focus or +3 bonus for class skill, harder tumble to move away etc) and that doing so basically requires casters, at least at low levels, to depend on melee a little more.

[Eldaran]

I ended up using Autohpynosis in place of Concentration, it seems to fit the similar mind over body type of skill, but because 3.5 Concentration was based off of Con I decided that when using maneuvers you add your Con in place of Wis on the check.

[137beth]

As a disclaimer, I'll say that I mainly run 3.5 with pathfinder mixed in, rather than the other way around like you are doing, so this was never an issue for me to begin with.

That said, you could probably get away with making concentration work like it does for pathfinder casters (Initiator level+ability score (con)+d20). If you feel having each discipline tied to an actual skill is important for consistency, you could add bring back concentration the skill, but have it only apply to initiators and leave manifester/caster concentration as it is in pathfinder. Or, you could use autohypnosis but allow initiators to substitute their constitution modifier in...which amounts to almost the same thing as bringing back concentration as a skill.

[Eldaran]

Or, you could use autohypnosis but allow initiators to substitute their constitution modifier in...which amounts to almost the same thing as bringing back concentration as a skill.

I wouldn't say it's the same, it's actually better. Autohypnosis actually has a number of nice uses for the skill that's not related to maneuvers, whereas using the concentration skill or a PF concentration check does nothing outside of the maneuver.

[Coidzor]

I wouldn't say it's the same, it's actually better. Autohypnosis actually has a number of nice uses for the skill that's not related to maneuvers, whereas using the concentration skill or a PF concentration check does nothing outside of the maneuver.

Yeah, having a skill that *only* exists to work with a maneuver or set of maneuvers is a bit harsh.

[IAmTehDave]

(...)one of PF's goals was to make casting in melee harder (higher DC, Step Up in core, no more skill focus or +3 bonus for class skill, harder tumble to move away etc) and that doing so basically requires casters, at least at low levels, to depend on melee a little more.
It's an excuse for casters to actually take Combat Casting other than as a feat tax for a PrC? There's also a second feat from Ultimate Magic that removes the requirement for vigorous motion, and gives an additional +2 so a +6 from feats (as opposed to +7 for 2 feats in 3.5)


I wouldn't say it's the same, it's actually better. Autohypnosis actually has a number of nice uses for the skill that's not related to maneuvers, whereas using the concentration skill or a PF concentration check does nothing outside of the maneuver.
Autohypnosis is a really fun skill, IMO. It did take a bit of a nerf in PF (re: poison and fear) but if you want a character with eidetic memory, this skill is a good way to simulate that.
It's also a good way to make sure your character never remembers the magic word to open a secret door. Just roll 2 natural 1s in a row and have your DM say "Yeah your character will never be able to pronounce the phrase correctly".


Yeah, having a skill that *only* exists to work with a maneuver or set of maneuvers is a bit harsh.
It's not unprecedented in 3.X. (I've never used OA, but I think Iaijutsu Focus was a bit of a one-trick-pony of a skill)

On the other hand, Autohypnosis has a lot of utility for a skill, has a lot of flavor, and doesn't actually require psionic abilities to work. I'm going to throw my vote in that direction.
(Plus, the awesome that can be had: Autohypnosis lets you take actions while at 0 HP without taking damage from them. That plus a (nearly full) necklace of fireballs saved my party once.)

[Cowardly Griffo]

I'm gonna add to the chorus of Autohypnosis. I wouldn't have thought of it myself, but yeah, it actually seems like a pretty perfect fit.

How long was that magic phrase anyway? o.O
Autohypnosis covers stuff that's like 800 words long.

[IAmTehDave]

How long was that magic phrase anyway? o.O
Autohypnosis covers stuff that's like 800 words long.

Yeah...my DM lets me use autohypnosis to simulate my character having a near perfect eidedic memory. So I use it for nearly everything I have to remember. (even if I also write it down somewhere) I also sometimes use it as a joke.
(Although it did come in handy when I used it to recount a prince's last words intended for his brother, word for word and inflection for inflection, including the bit that said "And don't tell Gordon that last part")

The actual phrase was something like 4 syllables?
This particular DM treats natural 1s as the universe conspiring against the roller. (He has a crit generator he uses....it's not pretty)