Artificer

[Teapot Salty]

Hey guys. So I looked at the artificer and I wondered: why why is it tier one? It just seems like an inferior transmuter wizard. That said, I haven't read all the class features and was wondering if any of them are just tier one smash. My only guess as to their tier oneyness is that they are a magic item factory, otherwise...

[thethird]

So you know how a wizard has an ample spell selection and needs to select their spells and plan for them?
Well the artificer is in a whole other league, he has a much wider spell list to select from but has to plan further in advance, because he is going to be crafting items to supply for the spells.

Of course there are a LOT of dirty and nasty tricks that you can pull with an artificer, my go to build crafts items at a really low % of their normal cost. Or you could create them for free, if you wanted. Or get free wishes. Just crazy stuff.

[Hazrond]

Hey guys. So I looked at the artificer and I wondered: why why is it tier one? It just seems like an inferior transmuter wizard. That said, I haven't read all the class features and was wondering if any of them are just tier one smash. My only guess as to their tier oneyness is that they are a magic item factory, otherwise...

Magic items are power, the artificer is better than ANYONE at magic items, if he is smart he will outplay the wizard in versatility EASILY if he's smart

[lord_khaine]

Not to mention he can do some sick things with metamagic effects, putting them into wands ect, or persisting spells like polymorp or simular at a very early level.

[thethird]

Not to speak of the psionic artificer, even stronger.

[Urpriest]

The magic items aren't a huge part of it, though they are a part.

First, taking into account infusions like Spell Storing Item, you've got access to any level-appropriate spell for levels 1-4 given a small amount of prep time. Having access to just the entire Wizard list is enough to make a Wizard Tier 1, remember. So level 1-8 you're automatically Tier 1 just from that. You can also pull out the Weapon Augmentation and Armor Enhancement lines, which have a whole host of abilities you can access including summoning elementals, controlling undead, various status effects...

At higher levels, crafting itself becomes a big part of your power. You can craft things two levels ahead of everyone else, and you almost never have to pay XP costs. You can also use what you craft as well as a Tier 1 caster with good PrC choices, since you're great at adding metamagic to wands and staves through a variety of methods.

There really isn't any similarity to Transmuters, besides the fact that they both share boring buffs like Bull's Strength.

[Gavinfoxx]

Incredible spell access. They just make scrolls of any spell they ever want, from ANYONE'S list.

[Mato]

Hey guys. So I looked at the artificer and I wondered: why why is it tier one? It just seems like an inferior transmuter wizard. That said, I haven't read all the class features and was wondering if any of them are just tier one smash. My only guess as to their tier oneyness is that they are a magic item factory, otherwise...Because the artificer isn't tier one.

The primary problem with the artificer is crafting doesn't offer anything. The minmaxboards has covered this a few items so if you want details you can look it up over there but the gist of things is the mic says you can buy whatever you want, designers state the crafting feats were intended to explain how magic items exist in the world (like profession explains barkeepers), and the wealth by level rules are designed to prevent bombing enemies with truckloads of magic items and crafting does not circumvent it. Conceptually the idea is fairly flawed to begin with, even a fighter can umd a wand or scroll and we don't award "flamewar points" to people that bring it up. The artificer isn't any different but the misconception is that it should be. Sort of how like monks suck and fighters need fixed. And no matter how new a player is, if you ask them if giving up spellcasting levels is a good idea they say no. Running an entire level behind the party singing "experience is like a river" isn't going to change the fact you traded away haste, fly, greater shivering touch, and venomfire for a cl3 wand of scorching ray.

Outside of crafting it's class features are fairly limited and self penalizing. Like while other classes and prcs hand out skill bonuses, take 10s, or even bonus feats tailored around skills the artificer gives you a +2 bonus to umd that only applies to a very limited pool of things and this pool is even smaller as you look towards the lower levels. His familiar alternative consumes gold in order to advance rather than freely provided progression. He needs three to four crafting skills to take up his npc mantle but also search & disable for traps and two knowledge skills for research plus concentration and spellcraft like any other spellcaster and most importantly umd but yet he has only 4 skill points per level, you need 28 intelligence to even keep up with them all. Metamagic spell trigger is offered to spellcasters through items and feats and the highest wand efficiency comes from multiple standard actions favoring a factotum based build over an artificer for wand nuking. To top this off, several infusions of anywhere from a one round (meaning you continue casting it until the beginning of your next turn) to one minute casting times but last at best ten minutes per level, attempting to line up item alteration so your vest of resistance stacks with your cloak of resistance requires burning action points or sky high concentration checks. Your ability to access your own class features should not be penalized in such a way to prevent usage.

Metamagic item also deserves a special mention. It allows the group to share wand costs and easily persist some of the most amazing spells ever printed, such as wraithstrike, to provide a significantly powerful contribution. However, in the scale of things what is the powerful element here? The spell. Prcs like the arcane archer or spellwarp sniper already allow wizards to cast persisted personal buffs on the party and prcs like the spelldancer, tainted scholar, & incantatrix and feats like metamagic node, metamagic song, & divine metamagic reduce or otherwise ignore metamagic costs so while kudos go to the artificer for easy access it doesn't earn any points for a tier one claim when npc based builds, like magewrights and adapts, can do the same. But overall, it is a nice make up.

If spell storing item didn't suck xp each use and was utterly dependent on your artificer level (rather than caster level allowing prcs to progress it) and maybe if you could craft infusion based items things wouldn't be so bad and you could overlook a lot of it's flaws. I mean not ever party has a wizard that's 15 minutes away from preparing the idea spell, or any spellcaster limited wishing or planar binding, away form the exact solution needed. Sometimes the lost xp can be overlooked or so minor your reserve can pay for it.

[RedMage125]

Because the artificer isn't tier one.

Oh, really?

I refer you to the source of the entire concept of the "Tier system"

http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=1002.0

And ask that you furnish proof of your claims, which you failed to do in your post.

Magic Item crafting does not rely on the Craft skill AT ALL. You want to craft a magic sword? Sure, you pay 1/2 the completed item cost in gp (which is more than enough to have flat-out purchased a masterwork sword as a part of the "crafting materials"), you spend the xp and time, and POOF, magic sword.

So much of the rest of your post shows that you perhaps do not understand what the Tier System truly represents. I refer you to the source page in the hope that you will read the whole thing, including FAQs, and understand that it represents class versatility. Saying "Artificer is a Tier 1 class" does not mean that "every artificer character is better than every sorcerer character". It means that artificers -since they essentially have access to ALL cleric/druid/wizard spells- can, with sufficient preparation, do anything those classes can do. And what they can do is LITERALLY alter reality at a whim.

[lord_khaine]

Running an entire level behind the party singing "experience is like a river" isn't going to change the fact you traded away haste, fly, greater shivering touch, and venomfire for a cl3 wand of scorching ray.


This especially in a long post of misconceptions jumped into my eyes, because you are not traiding those things away, you are getting them at level 3, or ending encounters with Ewards Black tentacles at level 5.

Having an artificer in the party is just plain nasty, and while he does need a little more downtime to function, then its easily something he can convince the party to take, by offering the party magic items for 75% of the market price.

[Forrestfire]

If an artificer isn't tier 1, then neither are Cleric and Druid. The artificer can play CoDzilla better than either of them, thanks to Metamagic Item and Concurrent Infusions (or Spell-Storing Item, if you feel like burning exp). For the cost of a few infusions per day and two feats taken, you can have buff spells off any list persisted. Constant Greater Invisibility, Polymorph, Divine Power, Greater Mirror Image, Ray Deflection, Wraithstrike, Beastland Ferocity + Delay Death... Artificer gets some very silly things.

There's an item called a Minor Schema in Magic of Eberron. It's a 1/day spell completion item of an infusion. A CL 8 minor schema of Concurrent Infusions is 12,800gp, and one of Metamagic Item is 6,000gp. This means that your artificer can, once he hits level 10 (although probably 12 because of feat slots) and can make them (or buy some), spend 18,800 gold for an extremely versatile all-day buff item. He can have a bunch of these. Hell, he can even share them. An artificer makes the whole party CoDzilla, if there's gold around to do it.

It gets better, though. At level 11, Artificers get Metamagic Spell Completion, letting them apply a metamagic feat to a minor schema for free 3+int mod times per day. Minor Schemas are up to 6th-level spells, so for another one-time purchase, you're getting persisted buffs (again, off any list) of 6th level or higher. Or persisted buffs off the infusions list. Want more of a stat? Grab a minor schema of Item Alteration, your +6 item of stat now provides a circumstance bonus, and you can put on another one (then repeat, if you want). Anti-Magic Field is a 5th-level spell for a Runescarred Berserker, so if you pick up Selective Spell, you can make one in a 6th-level schema for a bit over 25,000gp, if I'm remembering correctly. Persisted selective AMF seems really good, whether you use it on yourself or stick it on the party fighter to turn off enemy defenses. There are a ton of other good spells, too, even if you feel like just doing something boring like, say, becoming immune to all the elements through stacking various transmutations and Energy Immunity.

In any case... Artificer's main strength is its versatile item creation, but the infusions and its class features are kinda amazing. Make sure you've got dispelling defenses, though. Spellblades, rings of counterspelling, homunculi with rings of counterspelling...

[Vortenger]

Oh, really?

I refer you to the source of the entire concept of the "Tier system"

http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=1002.0

And ask that you furnish proof of your claims, which you failed to do in your post.

Magic Item crafting does not rely on the Craft skill AT ALL. You want to craft a magic sword? Sure, you pay 1/2 the completed item cost in gp (which is more than enough to have flat-out purchased a masterwork sword as a part of the "crafting materials"), you spend the xp and time, and POOF, magic sword.

So much of the rest of your post shows that you perhaps do not understand what the Tier System truly represents. I refer you to the source page in the hope that you will read the whole thing, including FAQs, and understand that it represents class versatility. Saying "Artificer is a Tier 1 class" does not mean that "every artificer character is better than every sorcerer character". It means that artificers -since they essentially have access to ALL cleric/druid/wizard spells- can, with sufficient preparation, do anything those classes can do. And what they can do is LITERALLY alter reality at a whim.

He's likely referring to SorO's opinion of it, and though he's often right, SorO's opinions are famously...abrasive... just ask him. He'll tell you.

Link to source here (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=11530.msg195536#msg195536)

[Telonius]

Artificer's crafting is a way to break WBL, but it also shows what I think is the Artificer's biggest strength: power multiplier.

Let's say a Fighter finally has 8000gp and wants to buy a +2 sword. "Hey, Fighter," says the Artificer. "I'll sell you one for just 5500gp." Artificer pockets 1500gp (more, if he has the Artisan feat) and buys 4 3rd-level utility scrolls; Fighter gets his +2 sword and buys an Amulet of Natural Armor or a Ring of Protection. The Artificer's main shtick just got him a few utlility scrolls, but the Fighter got better (semi-permanently) too; all at the cost of 320 XP (or less, depending on the feats and craft reserve). While it's true that any character with the appropriate item crafting feats can do this, Artificer gets all the crafting feats for free, bonus feats he can use to reduce crafting costs, and a Craft Reserve on top of that. And he never has to worry about not having a spell on his class list.

[Mato]

I refer you to the source of the entire concept of the "Tier system"Me to.


The artificer cannot cast spells, his infusions have grant no direct access to direct damage like orb of acid, no ability to answer questions like access to the divination school, no summoning like summon monster, no enslavement like dominate, no battlefield control like black tentacles, no action breaking like celerity and no campaign breakers like planar binding, no cloning like ice assassin and no creation of other worlds like genesis.

What he has is the ability to cast spell storing item which is capped at 4th level spells and the ability to craft scrolls.


I want you to look at the warlock whom has the ability to craft any scroll in D&D and maintains this ability while being able to take levels in hellfire warlock and something abusive like legacy champion. What tier is he? 4th. Same ominous crafting ability form the 12th level on, no weight in it.

Also found in the second tier are classes like the sorcerer whom can directly expand his spell list by feats and prcs as well as form items like runestaffs and knowstones. Via limited wish they can craft all sorts of spells cherry picking from any prc list, they can also form dragonpacts for little cost to them selves. Using one of it's known slots to pick up mental pinnacle even allows the sorcerer to manifest various psionic powers opening psionic crafting without the required usage of an alternative class feature.

We also see the psion on this list which has psychic chirurgery and is capable of learning every single psionic power printed, including spells converted by an erudite, and infinite manifesting per day thanks to various power point granting combinations.

Here we see the real value of ominous crafting, a 4th ranked trait, and the artificer's limitation on 4th level spells through spell storing item betrays him as even limited wish has a higher cap. Other classes of the second tier can possess a massive range of 9th level spells and powers and are so much more powerful as a result.



Capable, with months of downtime, of doing all things. Capable of doing one thing (burning xp) well while still trying to be useful in other ways (as a gold sink) as a fall back. But it simply doesn't do as well as better classes.

This sounds like the artificer's home.


There's an item called a Minor Schema in Magic of Eberron. It's a 1/day spell completion item of an infusion. A CL 8 minor schema of Concurrent Infusions is 12,800gp, and one of Metamagic Item is 6,000gp.Great highlight. Concurrent infusions imbues any three 1st level infusions in an item, knowing them or not isn't even mentioned allowing anyone to pick it up for immediate 1st level infusion access.

And if you want to cast one of the artificer's highest level infusions each day of the year, it costs a hair more than twenty six thousand gold for anyone to pick up and own.


Artificer's crafting is a way to break WBLCan you provide a rules quote on this claim? I'd love to see one.


He's likely referring to SorO's opinion of it, and though he's often right, SorO's opinions are famously...abrasive... just ask him. He'll tell you.

Link to source here (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=11530.msg195536#msg195536)There is another thread with a bunch of text from the mic supporting the idea you can buy anything. I know I seen it but that's not the topic.

[Telonius]

Me to.

Can you provide a rules quote on this claim? I'd love to see one.



Partially. Actual WBL figures aren't open game license, so to really crunch the numbers you'd have to do that on your own. But, from the Treasure (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/treasure.htm#monstersWithTreasure)section:



The level of the treasure is equal to the CR of the monsters in the encounter... On average, the PCs should earn one treasure suitable to their level for each encounter they overcome.

From page 41 of the DMG:

Table 5–1: Character Wealth by Level gives a guideline for about how much treasure a character of a certain level should possess. This
guideline is based on the (slightly more than) thirteen encounters per level formula and assumes average treasures were given out.

And, from the Craft Magic Arms and Armor feat (just to keep with the example):

You can create any magic weapon, armor, or shield whose prerequisites you meet. Enhancing a weapon, suit of armor, or shield takes one day for each 1,000 gp in the price of its magical features. To enhance a weapon, suit of armor, or shield, you must spend 1/25 of its features’ total price in XP and use up raw materials costing one-half of this total price.

So, just based on that, as soon as any character starts crafting anything, they start getting more powerful treasure than their wealth by level "should" allow. This is limited in most characters, by requiring them to expend scarce feats on crafting items. But Artificers get those feats for free.

[B-Unit]

As someone who's presently playing an Artificer in a game, I would have to say that they are most definitely Tier 1 in power, provided that your DM continues to follow standard rules for loot generation. If you're in a game where the DM scales back rewards because you're crafting items, then you have noticeably less impact on the game, but that strikes me as just denying class features to the Artificer similar to not allowing the fighter to have bonus feats.

Not only getting more equipment, but getting the equipment that you want or need is extremely powerful. Our level 12 party casually strolls around with a handful of +10 Weapons, +5 Cloaks of Resistance, Belts of Battles on every member, and a pile of other goodies. Despite my character generally not participating in combat himself, the impact of his contribution to the team is immense and has prevented our party from being challenged by encounters with CR equal to our levels basically at all.

Magical items are an enormous source of power in this game, and anytime you can get ahead of the curve in that regard it absolutely changes how the game flows.

[Aquillion]

By far the most important artificer class feature is the ability to craft items two levels sooner than anyone else. I cannot underline it enough. This feature is the reason you are playing an artificer. This feature, more than anything else, is the reason artificers are T1. It's the reason artificers are more than just a bunch of free craft feats, some bonus WBL via the reserve, and some other random stuff. It's a big deal, for a couple of reasons.

First, spells in D&D do not progress linearly. Getting access to the next spell level early is a much bigger deal than eg. a linear increase to damage or HP, or an extra attack. A big part of the reason why the Wizard is considered better than the Sorcerer is because it is one level ahead (not the only reason, but probably the biggest one.) The Artificer is two levels ahead of the wizard. You do the math. The other reason wizards are better, by the way, is because Wizards have broader spell access than any given Sorcerer -- they can pull out more options when given prep time. Artificers, of course, have vastly better access than the Wizard. Again, you do the math. On top of this, the ability to pick spells from any list means that artificers can get them at the lowest level they appear, anywhere. Often this can get ridiculous.

What's that you're saying? This comes at the cost of artificers having to pay for their spells out of their craft reserve and, eventually, XP? Well, that brings me to the second reason the +2 level bonus is so important...

This advantage gives you a 'buffer' if you spend your own XP for crafting. Even if you fall a level behind, you are still making wands, staves, and scrolls that are one class level higher than anything the wizard can cast. Even if you're two levels behind, you're still breaking even (while having access to every spell in the game!) It is unthinkable that your crafting could put you more than two levels behind your party (it's extremely unlikely it will ever put you more than one, with the craft reserve, and probably not for long if that), since both XP gain and the XP needed for next level are scaled.

Functionally, this means that the disadvantage of needing to spend craft reserve and XP (like the wizard's disadvantage of needing to prepare spells) is more illusory than it appears at first. You have enough craft reserve and spare XP to completely nova your way through levels 1 to 20 while keeping close enough in level to your party for the +2 bonus to keep you competitive with the wizard. You won't have to go that far, of course (and shouldn't), but you can, which means that playing an artificer is basically an exercise in deciding how much of your vast reserve / XP / charge-based wealth you feel this situation requires you to spend. (This is like playing a normal caster deciding when to burn spell slots, but more hardcore -- with more significant costs, yes, but more options and more raw power to make up for it -- we're talking more of both than the wizard, who is already the gold standard at those things. And, again, you can afford it.)

Sure, anyone else can spend WBL to buy those things, but that's like saying anyone with UMD can spend WBL to mimic the wizard -- UMD doesn't make the Rogue into a Wizard; just buying wands doesn't make you competitive with the artificer, because only the artificer has that huge cushion of extra resources to spend on those tricks.


Beyond that, artificers gain a number of other advantages that are non-obvious. Low-level wands don't increase much in cost, but the artificer gets better and better at using them thanks to spell trigger effects; again, the power curve of magic helps a lot here, combined with the fact that you get to choose whatever spells you want (so you can pick and choose the best) -- wands of the right low-level spells remain very useful at high levels, when you can burn through them freely without really worrying about their now-trivial costs.

The artificer's infusions are not really the selling point of the class, but they're still very nice to have (and yes, Spell Storing Item is basically a Level 1 "very limited wish".) Mostly, they give you a few options to contribute when you don't feel a situation warrants burning wealth.

My experience with people who critique Artificers is that they mostly say "well... you're going to regret burning all those permanent resources... someday...", but that in practice, because of the curves to XP and advancement and the way the party is constantly advancing along them (combined with the cushion your craft reserve and +2 level bonus gives you), that 'someday' never, ever, ever arrives.

[Mato]

So, just based on that, as soon as any character starts crafting anything, they start getting more powerful treasure than their wealth by level "should" allow. This is limited in most characters, by requiring them to expend scarce feats on crafting items. But Artificers get those feats for free.I don't actually see anything saying you can exceed wbl.

And if you can, so what? You can use the craft skill and pay 3 silver pieces in raw materials to make 1 gold piece. Then pay 1 gold piece in raw materials to make 133 silver pieces and so on. The artificer is actually behind the curve of chapter 4 in the PHB, you don't even need a feat or spellcasting to craft infinite wealth. Magical items only improve the rate of obtaining wealth and flesh to salt on cows is the best ratio I know of, and that's not an artificer's thing either.


By far the most important artificer class feature is the ability to craft items two levels sooner than anyone else. I cannot underline it enough. This feature is the reason you are playing an artificer. This feature, more than anything else, is the reason artificers are T1.

If the item duplicates a spell effect, however, it uses the artificer's actual level as its caster level.Yeah but all the good items are off limits.
Cloak of resistance +1? That's resistance.
+2 weapon? That's greater magic weapon.
Amulet of natural armor +3? That's dragonskin.
Belt of strength +4? That's bull's strength.
Wand of scorching ray, scroll of teleport, hat of disguise, starmantle cloak, soulfire armor, ring of freedom of movement, and so on are all out of reach. Your required items, key defenses, and several get out of jail cards are ineligible for this benefit.


Low-level wands don't increase much in cost, but the artificer gets better and better at using them thanks to spell trigger effects;

Costs are always determined using the item's minimum caster level or the artificer's actual level (if it is higher).The price the artificer must pay for wand creation continues to increase as they level up. A 10th level artificer must pay 3,750gp & 300xp to create a wand of endure elements and he cannot choose to craft it at a lower cl to reduce it's cost enough through there is no mechanical benefit for using a higher cl. It's a dumb thing that needs houseruled away, but never the less it's a houserule to allow normal pricing when an artificer crafts items.

Reminds me of
Tier 6: Not even capable of shining in their own area of expertise.

[kkplx]

The magic items aren't a huge part of it, though they are a part.

First, taking into account infusions like Spell Storing Item, you've got access to any level-appropriate spell for levels 1-4 given a small amount of prep time. Having access to just the entire Wizard list is enough to make a Wizard Tier 1, remember. So level 1-8 you're automatically Tier 1 just from that. You can also pull out the Weapon Augmentation and Armor Enhancement lines, which have a whole host of abilities you can access including summoning elementals, controlling undead, various status effects...

At higher levels, crafting itself becomes a big part of your power. You can craft things two levels ahead of everyone else, and you almost never have to pay XP costs. You can also use what you craft as well as a Tier 1 caster with good PrC choices, since you're great at adding metamagic to wands and staves through a variety of methods.

There really isn't any similarity to Transmuters, besides the fact that they both share boring buffs like Bull's Strength.

It's important to note that that access to spells is unreliable at best and an outright waste of actions at LEAST until you reach level 5, and that only if you pour a LOT of money into stacking UMD. An artificer is incredibly weak at early levels, as he relies on 1 minute casting infusions on his weapon to deal any damage, or 50% chance scroll activations for spells that don't scale with CL or int.

[kkplx]

soulfire armor, ring of freedom of movement, and so on are all out of reach[/I]

Learn to use your infusions. You can infuse a partymember's armor with Soulfire as early as level 5, for the laughable price of 100gp. Prep time necessary, but that's what makes an Artificer - being prepared. Same for Freedom of movement. 100 mins FoM at levle 5, assuming you got a rod of extend? Hardly any other caster can do that ;)

[kkplx]

Not only getting more equipment, but getting the equipment that you want or need is extremely powerful. Our level 12 party casually strolls around with a handful of +10 Weapons, +5 Cloaks of Resistance, Belts of Battles on every member, and a pile of other goodies. Despite my character generally not participating in combat himself, the impact of his contribution to the team is immense and has prevented our party from being challenged by encounters with CR equal to our levels basically at all.

Magical items are an enormous source of power in this game, and anytime you can get ahead of the curve in that regard it absolutely changes how the game flows.

A +10 item sports a 200'000gp value, or 200 days of work on it. What kind of GM lets you spend a year on a single item at level 12, AND how the hell is your character keeping up with the group after losing 8000xp repeatedly?

While you're right that pick&choose magical gear is AMAZING, the time penalties for doing so are absolutely crippling in most games.

[Telonius]

I don't actually see anything saying you can exceed wbl.

And if you can, so what? You can use the craft skill and pay 3 silver pieces in raw materials to make 1 gold piece. Then pay 1 gold piece in raw materials to make 133 silver pieces and so on. The artificer is actually behind the curve of chapter 4 in the PHB, you don't even need a feat or spellcasting to craft infinite wealth. Magical items only improve the rate of obtaining wealth and flesh to salt on cows is the best ratio I know of, and that's not an artificer's thing either.


Here's how you exceed WBL: WBL assumes you're getting a certain number standard treasures, worth a certain amount of gold, based on the standard CR of a monster. You take those resources and - instead of buying things at the regular list price, which WBL assumes - you create them at half price, effectively doubling your wealth for each item created. So by getting the standard treasure that WBL prescribes, you're getting more value than WBL assumes. The DM can make adjustments to this by limiting future treasure ... but when the DM has to fix it, that means it's broken.

The difference between Artificer and pillars of salt etc. is that pillars of salt are generally seen as cheap exploits. The intended purpose of pillar of salt isn't to generate infinite wealth, it's to turn a hostile enemy into a pillar of salt. It might have the effect of turning the dairy industry into a salt mine, but that's not its purpose. As such, that sort of exploit tends to get shot down by most DMs when they're abused. (Crafting is a broken part of the system generally; nobody's denying that).

But while those things have the effect of allowing infinite wealth generation, the entire purpose of the Artificer is to be a magical crafter. Just by doing what it's supposed to do, it creates an imbalance in one of the game's basic assumptions - and at the same time gives itself most of the same tricks that several of the other imbalancing classes get just by doing what they're supposed to do.

[Mato]

Learn to use your infusions. You can infuse a partymember's armor with Soulfire as early as level 5, for the laughable price of 100gpThat has nothing to do with crafting through.

Also with a duration of only 50 minutes before having to renew and without sacrificing action points it takes an entire minute to cast any of the armor enhancements. You need to predict an encounter in a campaign to actually see the benefit while soulfire's constant effect guarantees you'll have it's benefit at virtually any time you wish.

That "laughable" price is the difference between having it when you need it and having it when it looks pretty.

[prufock]

Yeah but all the good items are off limits.
Cloak of resistance +1? That's resistance.
+2 weapon? That's greater magic weapon.
Amulet of natural armor +3? That's dragonskin.
Belt of strength +4? That's bull's strength.
Wand of scorching ray, scroll of teleport, hat of disguise, starmantle cloak, soulfire armor, ring of freedom of movement, and so on are all out of reach. Your required items, key defenses, and several get out of jail cards are ineligible for this benefit.

Most of the items you listed, while resembling spells, are not duplicating spell effects. An item only duplicates a spell effect if its description says so. IE Cape of the Mountebank "On command, this bright red and gold cape allows the wearer to use the magic of the dimension door spell once per day." Starmantle Cloak et al state no such thing, they only require certain spells to craft. Similarly, a cloak of resistance just gives you a resistance bonus to saving throws, it doesn't duplicate resistance.

The wands, scrolls, hat of disguise, ring of freedom of movement do duplicate spell effects. The others do not.

[kkplx]

Also with a duration of only 50 minutes before having to renew and without sacrificing action points it takes an entire minute to cast any of the armor enhancements. You need to predict an encounter in a campaign to actually see the benefit while soulfire's constant effect guarantees you'll have it's benefit at virtually any time you wish.

Rapid infusion guarantees you have that option once a day, in case **** hits the fan. But as I already pointed out as part of the section you quoted but chose not to include, preparation is what makes or breaks an Artificer and part of how to play the class. In any situation where you actually get to buff your teammates, and if you make the effort of pressing ahead after the first combat, you can make even 10 minute duration infusions at level 1 last multiple encounters.

[lord_khaine]

A +10 item sports a 200'000gp value, or 200 days of work on it. What kind of GM lets you spend a year on a single item at level 12, AND how the hell is your character keeping up with the group after losing 8000xp repeatedly?

The artificers i have seen in actual play stayed about ½ a level behind the rest of the party, and they were terrifyingly efficient, to a degree where they ended up recieving a few specific nerfs for future campaigns.

As for the crafting time, smart artificers invest in a few minor golems to handle some of the actual work for them, meaning they get to go out and adventure while their construct toils away.

[kkplx]

As for the crafting time, smart artificers invest in a few minor golems to handle some of the actual work for them, meaning they get to go out and adventure while their construct toils away.

Golem. Singular. Also technically a Homunculus. It works in your stead, using your magical energy. Any individual can only be bonded to the work on one magical item at a time. Multiple dedicated wrights don't allow you to get past that tiny little issue. One magical item at a time. Only way you'll get more is leadership.

Mundane crafting isn't really worth talking about - unseen crafter takes care of that in 90% of cases - but if mundane crafting was your problem balance wise, something might be wrong with your campaign ;)

[shadow_archmagi]

I've run numerous artificers. They always stole the spotlight with heavily metamagicked wands (Twin Maximized Fireball he he he) and appeased the party with discount items.

The slow casting time of infusions is generally a nonissue. "LOL RANDOM ENCOUNTERS" tend to be very rare in the campaigns I've participated in, so trying to be ready for a full eight hours is a nonissue. In a dungeoncrawl, all your encounters will tend to be within an hour, easily.

[kkplx]

They always stole the spotlight with heavily metamagicked wands (Twin Maximized Fireball he he he) and appeased the party with discount items.

1800gp a pop for 120 fire damage with a DC 14 reflex save and SR:Yes at level 10 - that's a really underwhelming (the range is the only plus) way to blast compared to Scorching Ray, Arc Lightning and Orbs. Might as well just cast Polymorph, turn into a Pyro/Cryo-Hydra and deal the same damage, for free. Or into a Roper and remove any enemy form the fight with a full attack.

Oh, and it took 22 days to make, too.

[shadow_archmagi]

1800gp a pop for 120 fire damage with a DC 14 reflex save and SR:Yes at level 10 - that's a really underwhelming (the range is the only plus) way to blast compared to Scorching Ray, Arc Lightning and Orbs. Might as well just cast Polymorph, turn into a Pyro/Cryo-Hydra and deal the same damage, for free. Or into a Roper and remove any enemy form the fight with a full attack.


At 10th level? At 5th level. Obviously fireball isn't the spell of choice at 10th level.

11,250 gp for a wand of fireball.
Half price for artificer 5625
25% off of that from the feat means 4218 for the wand.

One casting of Metamagic Item for Twin to make it free, and then 3 extra charges for Maximize, so you're spending 4 per shot. It's actually 337 gp per shot for 60 damage a pop, which many CR 5 creatures simply cannot survive. (And, again, it's an AoE spell, so if you're using it, you're fighting multiple enemies, which probably means enemies with lower HP and CR, so very good odds that they'll be below CR 5)

Admittedly, that's in an emergency situation, so it's less efficient then- for a normal fight, I'd just use Metamagic Item to twin it and not expend extra charges, so 84.36 gold per shot for ~35 AoE damage.

And yeah, there are better spells. I'm just pointing that that Artificer is a very solid, very competitive class even with minimal effort. I just picked the classic blasting spell and put metamagic on it for free/cheap.