What's the difference between these two skills?

[questionmark693]

Knowledge (arcana) and Spellcraft. Fluffwise, aren't they both knowledge of magic?

Separately, knowledge (nature) and survival, aren't they the same thing also?

This is a fluff question-I recognize what mechanics separate the two skills in both examples.

[ZeroNumerous]

Separately, knowledge (nature) and survival, aren't they the same thing also?

I can't speak for Know(Arcana) and Spellcraft because neither of those really exist. But while I know that you can fish up and prepare an Octopus, and could identify an octopus vs a squid, I could not go out and actually get one. That's the difference between Know(Nature) and Survival: Knowing what something is, or that it can be eaten, is not the same as going out and actually getting that thing.

[Dr.Gara]

The differences I see are in the difference between theory and practicum. You may know all about how guns work, exactly how they work, the principles behind their operation, what makes what thing what, what that thing does, and why, but not be able to shoot the broadside of a barn. In that same token, you may all about plants and how they grow, how animals act, what makes them tick, but you would starve to death in the forest.

Edit: Swordsage'd, and by less then a minute. Knew I shouldn't have gone back for that last spellcheck.

[erok0809]

I would say that Knowledge (arcana) is much more general than spellcraft. It would include things such as knowing a bit of magical history (not on the level of knowledge (history) though), knowing about magical monsters and dragons, and then knowing about myriad magical topics. On the other hand, spellcraft is more about knowing how spells are made, what makes each spell different, and how to identify a given spell based on what you see. It's much more specifically about spells than magic in general.

As for knowledge (nature) vs. Survival, survival is your skill at foraging for food, finding water, tracking, and the like. It's your ability to survive in the wild. Knowledge (nature) is knowing about the wild, knowing things about plants and trees and animals and the like. You can know a lot, and that will help you survive (this is why, iirc, there's a skill synergy between the two skills), but you have to actually have the ability to do the things you know about. So knowledge (nature) would be the theory, and survival is the practice, in a way. That's how I see these skills, anyway.

Edit: Double swordsage'd

[Bullet06320]

book learning vs practical application

I can read a book and understand how an engine works, but that don't make me a mechanic

[questionmark693]

Ok, that makes sense, and I can accept it. Thanks!

[prufock]

This is precisely why in my re-formatting of the 3.5 system I've combined those sets of skills. My revamp uses exactly 20 skills, as opposed to the 50 in standard D&D. Skill points and class skills are adjusted accordingly. Just for reference

Acrobatics (dex) – Balance, Escape Artist, Tumble, and Use Rope.
Arcana (int) – Knowledge (arcana), Spellcraft for arcane spells, and Use Magic Device.
Athletics (str) – Climb, Jump, Ride, and Swim.
Concentration (con) – Concentration and Autohypnosis.
Craft (int) – Not changed, really, except that you can now appraise items with a craft check, and it includes Knowledge about the items you can craft.
Deception (cha) – Bluff and Disguise.
Dungeoneering (int) – Knowledge (dungeoneering) and Survival checks while underground.
Healing (int) – Heal and knowledge about anatomy, diseases, medicines, poisons.
Intimidation (cha) – Intimidation and Iaijutsu Focus.
Knowledge (int) – Knowledge (history), Knowledge (local), and Knowledge (nobility and royalty), as well as any others other than arcana, dungeoneering, geography, nature, psionics, religion, planes, and tactics.
Linguistics (int) – Decipher Script, Forgery, and Speak Language.
Mechanics (int) – Craft (mechanics), Disable Device and Open Lock.
Perception (wis) – Listen, Search, Sense Motive, and Spot.
Persuasion (cha) – Diplomacy and Gather Information.
Performance (cha) – Perform is multiple subskills, no change from standard.
Psionics (int) – Knowledge (Psionics), Psicraft, and Use Psionic Device.
Religion (int) – Knowledge (religion), Knowledge (planes), Spellcraft for divine spells, and Survival checks on other planes.
Stealth (dex) – Hide, Move Silently, and Sleight of Hand.
Survival (int) – Handle Animal, Knowledge (geography), Knowledge (nature), and Survival.
Tactics (int) – Knowledge (tactics) and Martial Lore.

Appraise is eliminated. You can appraise items using any other relevant skill.
Profession is eliminated. You can make money, for instance, as a mechanic, spellcaster, healer, and so on using those checks or an appropriate expertise check.
Truespeak is no longer a skill, but a class ability. However knowing about truespeaking (just not being able to practice it) can fall under Linguistics.

Synergy bonuses no longer exist. Most skills which previously had synergy with one another are now combined into a single skill.

[Coidzor]

This is precisely why in my re-formatting of the 3.5 system I've combined those sets of skills. My revamp uses exactly 20 skills, as opposed to the 50 in standard D&D. Skill points and class skills are adjusted accordingly. Just for reference

Acrobatics (dex) – Balance, Escape Artist, Tumble, and Use Rope.
Arcana (int) – Knowledge (arcana), Spellcraft for arcane spells, and Use Magic Device.
Athletics (str) – Climb, Jump, Ride, and Swim.
Concentration (con) – Concentration and Autohypnosis.
Craft (int) – Not changed, really, except that you can now appraise items with a craft check, and it includes Knowledge about the items you can craft.
Deception (cha) – Bluff and Disguise.
Dungeoneering (int) – Knowledge (dungeoneering) and Survival checks while underground.
Healing (int) – Heal and knowledge about anatomy, diseases, medicines, poisons.
Intimidation (cha) – Intimidation and Iaijutsu Focus.
Knowledge (int) – Knowledge (history), Knowledge (local), and Knowledge (nobility and royalty), as well as any others other than arcana, dungeoneering, geography, nature, psionics, religion, planes, and tactics.
Linguistics (int) – Decipher Script, Forgery, and Speak Language.
Mechanics (int) – Craft (mechanics), Disable Device and Open Lock.
Perception (wis) – Listen, Search, Sense Motive, and Spot.
Persuasion (cha) – Diplomacy and Gather Information.
Performance (cha) – Perform is multiple subskills, no change from standard.
Psionics (int) – Knowledge (Psionics), Psicraft, and Use Psionic Device.
Religion (int) – Knowledge (religion), Knowledge (planes), Spellcraft for divine spells, and Survival checks on other planes.
Stealth (dex) – Hide, Move Silently, and Sleight of Hand.
Survival (int) – Handle Animal, Knowledge (geography), Knowledge (nature), and Survival.
Tactics (int) – Knowledge (tactics) and Martial Lore.

Appraise is eliminated. You can appraise items using any other relevant skill.
Profession is eliminated. You can make money, for instance, as a mechanic, spellcaster, healer, and so on using those checks or an appropriate expertise check.
Truespeak is no longer a skill, but a class ability. However knowing about truespeaking (just not being able to practice it) can fall under Linguistics.

Synergy bonuses no longer exist. Most skills which previously had synergy with one another are now combined into a single skill.

Why Iaijutsu Focus + Intimidation?

[prufock]

Why Iaijutsu Focus + Intimidation?

Iaijutsu is somewhat refluffed, I suppose. I'm picturing it more like a staredown followed by a draw and attack (which can be done with any weapon, guns included for an old-west style) as in an iaijutsu duel. I would remove or nerf the part that allows you to do this on any attack; that feels like it should be more a class feature than a skill.