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ExHunterEmerald
2007-03-01, 11:09 AM
One of the DM's in our gang has decided to run an ECL 15 game with a rogue, a cleric, a fighter, and a wizard. I'm pretty sure that's Tomb of Horrors. It's been discussed before.
I'm gunning for the rogue at the moment. My problem, though, is I've never played high-levels before.
What should I do for my rogue? Dex-boosting items, feats, abilities, and so on?

I don't want to be unbelievably superbly optimized, but I'd like to be an effective force.

Thoughts? And thanks.

Pocket lint
2007-03-01, 11:13 AM
Judging from the novel, bring a 10-foot pole. *Lots* of 10-foot poles.

And max your trapfinding abilities as much as humanly possible.

Swordguy
2007-03-01, 11:25 AM
Bring spare character sheets.

Oh, for the rogue, max out every trapfinding think you can do, and see if the party wizard can permenancy some stuff onto you (low-light vision, heck, try for true-seeing!). You'll want your saves as high as possible, because you'll be rolling a lot of them. Obviously, you'll get a lot of use out of your class evasion abilities.

Have UMD high and a wand of Knock, followed by a wand of dispel magic and a wand of mage hand. All of those are good remote trap-disarming tools.

I can't remember the name of the item, but they goggles that basically give you X-ray vision will help as well.

ToH is mean. This is one of those few times where I'd support optimization. Heck, depending on the DM running it, I'd support bringing Pun-Pun.

ExHunterEmerald
2007-03-01, 11:37 AM
Bring spare character sheets.

Oh, for the rogue, max out every trapfinding think you can do, and see if the party wizard can permenancy some stuff onto you (low-light vision, heck, try for true-seeing!). You'll want your saves as high as possible, because you'll be rolling a lot of them. Obviously, you'll get a lot of use out of your class evasion abilities.

Have UMD high and a wand of Knock, followed by a wand of dispel magic and a wand of mage hand. All of those are good remote trap-disarming tools.

I can't remember the name of the item, but they goggles that basically give you X-ray vision will help as well.

ToH is mean. This is one of those few times where I'd support optimization. Heck, depending on the DM running it, I'd support bringing Pun-Pun.

...Oh man, this will be interesting. The DM's also said "no backups." You're dead, you're dead.

Swordguy
2007-03-01, 11:54 AM
Actually, I think the quote your looking for is from Aliens.

"Nuke the tomb from orbit. It's the only way to be sure."

Quietus
2007-03-01, 11:57 AM
Super lethal and only one char? Sounds like a good time. :smallbiggrin:

Fax Celestis
2007-03-01, 12:02 PM
Hm.

Well, for survivability's sake as a rogue, forget Str and Cha. You won't need them here. If you're in a fight, have someone else do the fighting, and shoot into the battle from the sidelines with a bow or something.

Meanwhile, boost your Int and Wis. You want those skill points, and every spare mod you can get onto your Wis related skills is useful. I'd suggest a dip to Monk (or Ninja or Swordsage, if you can) for Wis-to-AC for extra survivability.

As far as an actual build? Monk 2/Rogue 5/Exemplar 8 would be my recommendation. You're a skillmonkey, and Exemplar helps that marvelously. Also helps some of your comrades also be slightly more skillish.

For gear, get Bracers of Armor if you use Monk, Mithril Breastplate if you use Swordsage. If you do go swordsage, get a pair of Bracelets of Spell Sharing (DMG-II) and put them on the party Cleric. Now all his personal-range spells affect you as well, halving the duration for the both of you. So what? If he's got divine metacheese: persistant, that means 12 hours instead of 24. You'll be lucky to live that long.

Get yourself some wands (and dorjes, if you can get Use Psionic Device) of a variety of spells you like. Sneak attack with them from the shadows. However, focus on spells that'll either put down an enemy quickly or make you incredibly hard to kill.

Rings of greater counterspelling (DMG-II), with flesh to stone and wail of the banshee in them. Three of those bags that make animals. Boots of flying. A greater cloak of displacement. A variety of potions.

Swordguy
2007-03-01, 12:06 PM
Yeah, there are some completely unfair traps in there.

To give an example NOT from the ToH (but on the same level of lethality):

In the Lankhmar Campaign setting, there is a particular adventure, in which you have to penetrate a tomb filled with nasty traps to get at a dead spellcaster and master trapsmith's loot.

The trap in question is a 100' long, 10' wide hallway, with an indentation in the floor exactly halfway through. There is nothing to differentiate this hallway from any other hallway in the complex, except for the indentation. A Detect Life spell with a 5' radius was cast on this indentation. This is the trap trigger. If life is detected in this area, the trap goes off, with the following effect:

Take your hands and place them (with the thumb and forefinger at a 90-degree angle) right over left, so the 2 right angles form a square (thumbtip to thumbtip, and the thumbtips should meet in the lower left corner of the square). This is the cross-section of the corridor. Now, slide your right hand over your left hand, and rotate the square 90 degrees to the left (so your thumbtips would be on the lower right corner), and bring the webbing of your thumbs together in the center while you do.

This is the action of the corridor. Anything inside the corridor is squeezed out the ends in a liquid mess with no saving throw (no damage rating, you're just dead) unless you're 5' from the ends - in which case you would make a Dex check (REF save now) to jump back or have a body part lopped off by the closing action.

Have fun!

Quietus
2007-03-01, 12:15 PM
Dude. That's a bloody AWESOME trap.

*Wipes away the drool*

wowy319
2007-03-01, 12:20 PM
Scrolls of augury & knock, a gem of true seeing, and top it off with a good cloak of resistance & a damn good pair of gloves of dexterity. And also, you might wanto to consider levels in thief-acrobat and/or dungeon delver. They'll do you good.

And be a halfling. those saving throw bonuses will be a boon.

Ethdred
2007-03-01, 12:25 PM
Bring spare character sheets.

Oh, for the rogue, max out every trapfinding think you can do, and see if the party wizard can permenancy some stuff onto you (low-light vision, heck, try for true-seeing!). You'll want your saves as high as possible, because you'll be rolling a lot of them. Obviously, you'll get a lot of use out of your class evasion abilities.

Have UMD high and a wand of Knock, followed by a wand of dispel magic and a wand of mage hand. All of those are good remote trap-disarming tools.

I can't remember the name of the item, but they goggles that basically give you X-ray vision will help as well.

ToH is mean. This is one of those few times where I'd support optimization. Heck, depending on the DM running it, I'd support bringing Pun-Pun.

I agree that this is a sick sick dungeon - you really don't want to do this, but I suppose it will be cool to say you haev done it. As well as the wands mentioned above, take at least one wand of SM I - use those critters to go through every door before you do!

Swordguy
2007-03-01, 12:30 PM
Dude. That's a bloody AWESOME trap.

*Wipes away the drool*

Yeah, Lankhmar had some really cool stuff in it. I keep thinking about ways to update the setting to 3.x, and then I think about how massively lethal the campaign was (all spellcasting times are increased by one step, so a 1 round casting time becomes 1 turn, magic traps with inherent suppress magic aura spells on them, NPCs with "instakill" special attacks - and I mean literally instakill, not just lots of damage).

Actually, this would be a good idea for a sticked thread: cool trap ideas as a tool for GMs.

Quietus
2007-03-01, 12:51 PM
Yeah, Lankhmar had some really cool stuff in it. I keep thinking about ways to update the setting to 3.x, and then I think about how massively lethal the campaign was (all spellcasting times are increased by one step, so a 1 round casting time becomes 1 turn, magic traps with inherent suppress magic aura spells on them, NPCs with "instakill" special attacks - and I mean literally instakill, not just lots of damage).

Actually, this would be a good idea for a sticked thread: cool trap ideas as a tool for GMs.

Sounds like fun. I play in games with that kind of lethality quite a bit (though instakill tends to come in the form of damage; Kinda like sending a troll at a three-man party of average level 3), and while it's sad to see so many characters go, I do love never knowing if I'll "do it" or not.

Darion
2007-03-01, 02:05 PM
I can count the number of players I know of that have successfully completed the ToH played as intended by the DM (ie- henious) on slightly more than both hands. I can count the number that have done it with a single character on one and have room to spare. It is a tough, tough dungeon.

My advice: in addition to your stats, YOU will need to be on the ball, paying attention to details. You should think about writing out your stats at levels 12-15, assuming that you'll die and (possibly) be brought back several times, and having solutions to the level loss on hand is not a garuntee. Invest in a significant number of utility spells and items, in addition to your character stats, you'll need all sorts of tricks to survive.

One bit of advice on something to avoid (that I don't think is a spoiler). My first time through the Tomb (yes, its good enough to play through more than once, after you've had enough time to forget many of the details), I had several "there's no way X will happen, its far too cliched" moments. What got me was that the Tomb of Horrors is one of the original adventures that helped define and create those cliches. So, in short, keep an open mind.

Good luck!

ken-do-nim
2007-03-01, 02:22 PM
When I ran Tomb of Horrors, back oh like 100 years ago, I gave the party a save game option. The original module gave a 100,000 xp award for completing the adventure, and I told the players that every time they had to revert to their "saved game" that I would cut the award in half. The players only had to use the saved game once when there was a TPK. Beyond that, 2 characters died anyway.

I did make one rather significant DM screw-up though that perhaps should have led to more. C'est la vie.

ExHunterEmerald
2007-03-01, 09:21 PM
Uh oh.

Okay, as it turns out, I've received more info:
1: No character stuff outside of the PHB.
2: This module was updated from first edition by the DM.

Thoughts? Bueller?

Delcan
2007-03-01, 09:39 PM
Uh oh.

Okay, as it turns out, I've received more info:
1: No character stuff outside of the PHB.
2: This module was updated from first edition by the DM.

Thoughts? Bueller?

In the words of the immortal Calvin: "Hooray, we're dead."

Seriously. If the DM's doing the updating, count on some unfairness above and beyond the evil that is ToH.

Beyond minmaxing your character to the most egregious possible point, I suggest you not invest too much interest in your character. They ain't gonna last.

Fax Celestis
2007-03-01, 09:43 PM
Monk 2/Rogue 3/Assassin 10, or Rogue 3/Wizard 5/Arcane Trickster 7.

Arbitrarity
2007-03-01, 09:44 PM
Do what Ben did in Full Throttle. When in doubt, drop bunnies on the ground, have them hop in, and slowly follow the path of exploding bodies. Hopefully there's nothing left.

They were mechanical bunnies!

ExHunterEmerald
2007-03-01, 09:45 PM
Monk 2/Rogue 3/Assassin 10, or Rogue 3/Wizard 5/Arcane Trickster 7.

Got to be a straight rogue. Also, no prestige classes at all.

The_Snark
2007-03-01, 09:47 PM
Be a very devout rogue. Pray. Become friends with your cleric.

Buy him lots of diamonds.

brian c
2007-03-01, 09:48 PM
Got to be a straight rogue. Also, no prestige classes at all.

Yeah you can't really do much of anything. Good luck though!

Toliudar
2007-03-01, 11:33 PM
Scrolls of raise dead, for when your cleric dies.

Search for traps everywhere. Then, practice not complaining when you still don't find them.

I'd suggest halfling, with focus on dex, int, wis and con, in that order. Strength and Charisma will be irrelevant to you.

Without knowing the DM, a new update might not be a bad idea. If he's forcing you to straight archetypal characters, he's probably testing something out - which means that he too has a vested interest in this working.

Fax Celestis
2007-03-01, 11:36 PM
No, wait, did he say "Straight rogue", or did he say "Only the PHB"?

Because if it's the latter, you can go Monk 1/Paladin 2/Rogue 12, and get Wis-to-AC and Cha-to-Saves, as well as three levels of slightly higher HD (and BAB, in the case of the Paladin).

Mewtarthio
2007-03-01, 11:37 PM
Play a Centaur Barbarian. Run hell-bent-for-leather in the opposite direction of the tomb.

ExHunterEmerald
2007-03-02, 01:50 AM
No, wait, did he say "Straight rogue", or did he say "Only the PHB"?

Because if it's the latter, you can go Monk 1/Paladin 2/Rogue 12, and get Wis-to-AC and Cha-to-Saves, as well as three levels of slightly higher HD (and BAB, in the case of the Paladin).
Both. So, rogue PHB only.

Quietus
2007-03-02, 01:54 AM
So not only is he putting you into a specifically lethal setting, but he's also FORCING you to play a pure Rogue?

Limiting it to Core, I can see. Force-feeding players characters... well, I hope you're okay with that, I know I wouldn't be.

Matthew
2007-03-02, 09:26 AM
Sounds like fun. If you really want to survive, don't go in, but if you want to have a chance of surviving, time to max out Search, Spot, Listen, Open Locks and Disable Device.

Elf Rogue

Level 01: Alertness
Level 03: Nimble Fingers
Level 06: Skill Focus (Search)
Level 09:
Level 12:
Level 15:

Search: [18 (Ranks) + 2 (Racial) + 3 (Skill Focus)]
Spot: [18 (Ranks) + 2 (Racial) + 2 (Alertness)]
Listen: [18 (Ranks) + 2 (Racial) + 2 (Alertness)]
Disable Device: [18 (Ranks) + 2 (Nimble Fingers)]
Open Locks: [18 (Ranks) + 2 (Nimble Fingers)]


You are going to want at least 14 in both Wisdom and Intelligence, but you are probably going to want to make Dexterity your highest Attribute. Invest in Magical items to increase these three Attributes.

Not much, but it's a start. How much Gold and freedom to choose Magical Items do you have? Is there going to be a party fund for Healing / Restoration / Resurrection Magic?

Premier
2007-03-02, 09:41 AM
ToH is the sort of dungeon where all your bonuses, saving throws and cool abilities mean a lot, lot less than your discretion and circumspection as a player. With this in mind, the best advice I can give you is this:

- It CAN and WILL kill you just by you touching it. If you're not sure you want to touch it, don't.

- It CAN and WILL be hidden in some place where you'd never look for it. If you can search a place for interesting stuff without violating the previous advice, do so.

- Proceed slowly. Take a careful look at everything and commit what you see to memory. Don't be too macho to retreat and rest up.

- Follow the path of least resistance. If a certain direction looks potentially dangerous, problematic or weird, then don't take it until you have exhausted the other possible avenues of investigation.

jjpickar
2007-03-02, 09:52 AM
Also, as a rule, hide all the time. Never let anything see you.

Swordguy
2007-03-02, 10:53 AM
Uh oh.

Okay, as it turns out, I've received more info:
1: No character stuff outside of the PHB.
2: This module was updated from first edition by the DM.

Thoughts? Bueller?

First, buy your DM a copy of the 3rd ed version. You'll spend 20 bucks. You'll save a great deal of frustration, annoyance, and carpet cleaning bills from trying to clean that red stain where your DM used to sit.

Character Build for a 15th level straight-up rogue?

Oi...

Well, you don't have all that much customizability in class features, just your Rogue Special Abilities. You'll get 2 (1 at 10th, 1 at 13th). The first should be Improved Evasion, no questions asked. As for the second, I'd go with Skill Mastery (Disable Device) or a Skill Focus feat or your choice.

Let's see...as Matthew mentioned, max out Search, Spot, Listen, Open Locks and Disable Device. I'd go as a Halfling, simply for the iconic-ness of the class/race combo and the nifty rogue-type bonuses the furry little blighters get. The lifting/carrying limits won't mean as much because you ought to have plenty of extradimensional storage space in the party (GET a Heward's handy Haversack!).

Feats...(assuming you're playing a generalist, trapfinding rogue)
Dodge and Mobility if you're playing a melee backstabber rogue
Alertness (+2 Listen and Spot)
Blindfighting (if you can't get "anything of True Seeing"), otherwise Combat expertise
Investigator (+2 Search)
Nimble Fingers (+2 Disable Device/Open Locks? Sold!)
Magical Aptitude (for the +2 on UMD checks)
any of the save-boosting feats
Run (I don't have to outrun the Balrog, just YOU!)
If you have the feats required, I've found Spring Attack to be really useful on melee rogues. Tumble past the enemy (and keep going). Stay out of their range, spring attack in (getting flanking and sneak attack bonuses), stabbination, and jump back out of counterattack range.
If you have the feats required and are a ranged fighter, Shot on the Run can be useful (spring attack with a bow!).

Equipment is tough to recommend without more information about gp available and magic item restrictions. However, figure out some way to get a bit of masterworked equipment that gives you a +2 bonus on Search checks. See if your DM will go with adding that bonus to the Magnifying Glass (which currently only give an Appraise bonus). Otherwise, quote the general "tool, Masterwork" entry:


Tool, Masterwork

This well-made item is the perfect tool for the job. It grants a +2 circumstance bonus on a related skill check (if any). Bonuses provided by multiple masterwork items used toward the same skill check do not stack.


If your DM says no, then make an appropriate quip that obviously the only tool allowed in the game is the DM himself.


Bring tanglefoot bags. While anything you encounter at ECL 15 should be capable of ignoring a DC15 reflex save, use the contents of the bag to gum up the works of any weapon or mechanical traps you may find. If nothing else, claim the +2 "favorable circumstance bonus" from such an action.

The best Thieves’ Tools you can get are obvious...


See if you can convince someone to play a monk or a fighter to take Stunning Fist. Work in tandem with them to set you up for cheap Sneak Attacks.

Darrin
2007-03-02, 10:55 AM
Also, as a rule, hide all the time. Never let anything see you.

Doesn't really help much in ToH. Unless the DM has overhauled everything, there aren't enough monsters in ToH to really worry about hiding. The primary dangers are magical traps, with a smattering of somewhat mundane traps. The over-abundance of magical traps means Disable Device may be useless.

If you're going rogue, max out your Search and Spot. Also, you might want to dump as many points as possible into Knowledge: Arcana, and then ask as many stupid/obvious/bizarre questions as you can think of.

Some "Must Have" items for ToH:
* Wand of Detect Secret Doors
* Wand of Identify
* Wand of Shatter
* Wand/Potions of See Invisibility (a Gem of Seeing or something with True Sight, if your DM will allow it, could turn the entire module into a cakewalk)
* Wand of Unseen Servant/Summon Monster 1/Bag of Tricks ("trap testers")
* Something that lets you fly. If potions of Flying aren't feasible, Slippers of Spiderclimb might work in a pinch and are amazingly cheap.
* Nolzur's Pigments is awful cheap for a darned near infinite number of puzzle-breaking items at your fingertips.

Note: if your spellcaster doesn't take "Find the Path", you are compelled by the universal laws of the cosmos to beat him within an inch of his life.

Swordguy
2007-03-02, 11:10 AM
Doesn't really help much in ToH. Unless the DM has overhauled everything, there aren't enough monsters in ToH to really worry about hiding. The primary dangers are magical traps, with a smattering of somewhat mundane traps. The over-abundance of magical traps means Disable Device may be useless.


From the SRD:



Restriction

Rogues (and other characters with the trapfinding class feature) can disarm magic traps. A magic trap generally has a DC of 25 + the spell level of the magic used to create it.

The spells fire trap, glyph of warding, symbol, and teleportation circle also create traps that a rogue can disarm with a successful Disable Device check. Spike growth and spike stones, however, create magic traps against which Disable Device checks do not succeed. See the individual spell descriptions for details.

Disable Device is supposed to work on any given magical trap unless the spell description (or, I suppose, the trap description) specifically says it doesn't. Whether the DM plays it correctly is another matter.

Also, we should watch how much info we're giving out here. No need to spoil the surprises for Mr. Emerald... :smallbiggrin:

ken-do-nim
2007-03-02, 12:11 PM
First, buy your DM a copy of the 3rd ed version. You'll spend 20 bucks. You'll save a great deal of frustration, annoyance, and carpet cleaning bills from trying to clean that red stain where your DM used to sit.

??? The 3rd edition version of Tomb of Horrors is available as a free download from the Wizards website (along with White Plume Mountain). Have you seen a copy in a store?

Swordguy
2007-03-02, 12:19 PM
??? The 3rd edition version of Tomb of Horrors is available as a free download from the Wizards website (along with White Plume Mountain). Have you seen a copy in a store?

No, I just forgot it was a free download.

In which case...your DM has EVEN LESS BLOODY EXCUSE to not be using the official version.

Swordguy
2007-03-02, 12:28 PM
Heh. Found this in the Create-your-own-Nightmare-PC thread:





[Quote:
Originally Posted by UglyPanda] View Post
The CoC and/or Tomb of Horrors veteran
Race: Human
Believes everything is a trap, every piece of gold is cursed, and every NPC is out to kill him. Usually ends up carrying equipment equal to a fifth of his wealth by level since he refuses to grab any items retrieved in dungeons.
Alignment: NG

Hey! Let's see YOU go through Tomb of Horrors and pretend like it didn't bother you, like things can go back to normal. In ToH paranoia isn't just a good idea - it's the law.

Sample ToH Encounter EL "9" (bull).

Player 1: "I inhale... There isn't a trap on the air, right?"
DM: "Wrong, make a fortitude save vs. poison. Is it a natural 20? Too bad."
Player 2: "Gahh! I hold my breath and cast remove poison on Player 1!"
DM: "Devil Monkeys fly out of the rear end of the statue in the center of the room and counterspell your remove poison using advanced laser technology. Also you turn into a flounder."
Player 2: "What the f-"
DM: "And explode."

It's funny cause it's true. :smallbiggrin:

Fax Celestis
2007-03-02, 12:31 PM
*dies laughing*

I have a mighty urge to run a ToH campaign, but my group is all noobz and I don't want to scare them off.

Tengu
2007-03-02, 12:31 PM
In which case...your DM has EVEN LESS BLOODY EXCUSE to not be using the official version.

Or perhaps the DM is running a completely different 1st edition very hard adventure, which ws never converted to 3.x so he had to do it himself?

PS. I always considered carrying a ten foot pole, and especially multiple ten foot poles, ridiculous. Something that long will limit your maneuverability, especially when running for your life. Why not just throw stones?

Swordguy
2007-03-02, 12:39 PM
Or perhaps the DM is running a completely different 1st edition very hard adventure, which ws never converted to 3.x so he had to do it himself?

PS. I always considered carrying a ten foot pole, and especially multiple ten foot poles, ridiculous. Something that long will limit your maneuverability, especially when running for your life. Why not just throw stones?

??? The OP said they're a 3.x group running the ToH. He also said the DM is updating his copy of the 1st edition ToH by himself. There is an updated copy of ToH, available for free, on the WotC site. Therefore, the DM can save himself a lot of work (and placate any misbalancing or misconversion issue with the players) by simply downloading the updated copy.

As for the 10' poles: extra-dimensional storage space FTW!

ExHunterEmerald
2007-03-02, 12:43 PM
Well, for one, it's a one-shot. So I don't mind filling a role specifically--hell, I got first pick.
Second, I'm not entirely sure it's tomb of horrors. I just know we were talking about running it awhile ago, and I thought I heard this is the right ECL for TOH.

Golthur
2007-03-02, 01:07 PM
PS. I always considered carrying a ten foot pole, and especially multiple ten foot poles, ridiculous. Something that long will limit your maneuverability, especially when running for your life. Why not just throw stones?

Never a 10' pole. I've suffered from too many old-school traps designed around the 10' pole. Use an 11' or 12' pole.

Fax Celestis
2007-03-02, 01:15 PM
Nonono, use a 30' ladder.

Swordguy
2007-03-02, 01:19 PM
Nonono, use a 30' ladder.

Pfft. Animated Levitating Basket. Like a hot-air balloon, without the balloon!

Fax Celestis
2007-03-02, 01:24 PM
Hell, get yourself a bag of caltrops, and use the catapult cantrip to launch them at things.

*ting* *RUMBLERUMBLECRUSH*

*a pause*

"...looks like it's trapped."

ken-do-nim
2007-03-02, 01:28 PM
Here's an embarassing story. I DM'd Tomb of Horrors, so I should have been really familiar with it, and several years later on one of those long bus rides my friend put me through it as a player. I just took one character, a wizard/thief who was at least 15th level. Having some memory of the dungeon, I decided that I would not travel in any of the existing corridors. So I just made my own corridors with disintegrate and used them. I'd rest for a day and rememorize disintegrate and there wasn't much the DM could do about it. Except ... whine. He convinced me to stick to the module, so I did. When my disintegrated corridor broke into one of the existing ones, I took that. I didn't remember it ... followed it ... and ... I bit it. Bad.

ExHunterEmerald
2007-03-02, 07:49 PM
Okay, well. It's TOH. We changed to the updated version WOTC has. And I apparently have the most experience in 3.5.

Oh crap.

We're playing now.

Matthew
2007-03-02, 07:59 PM
Max out your Search, Spot, Listen, Open Locks and Disable Device Skills, as outlined above! [Edit]Probably Knowledge (Arcane), as well.

Get Attribute enhancing Magic Items! Be prepared to run away... and let us know how it turns out.

MeklorIlavator
2007-03-02, 08:02 PM
I feel as if four voices cried out in pain and were silenced

Tengu
2007-03-02, 08:05 PM
Never a 10' pole. I've suffered from too many old-school traps designed around the 10' pole. Use an 11' or 12' pole.
While it's very useful to overcome the cliched traps, isn't a longer pole even more unwieldy?



As for the 10' poles: extra-dimensional storage space FTW!
But, at the time when you can afford it, aren't they better ways of finding traps than poking the floor and walls with a long stick?

ExHunterEmerald
2007-03-02, 08:05 PM
Max out your Search, Spot, Listen, Open Locks and Disable Device Skills, as outlined above! [Edit]Probably Knowledge (Arcane), as well.

Get Attribute enhancing Magic Items! Be prepared to run away... and let us know how it turns out.

Already done. I'm the most optimized in the gang.

Oh, crap.

Shiny, Bearer of the Pokystick
2007-03-02, 09:10 PM
I've only survived it once, and there was considerable rogue cheese involved.

I did, however, enjoy utilizing the chicken-on-a-string as a trap-detection measure. It's exactly what it sounds like.

Ideally, you'll want a fairly heavy chicken for pressure plates et. al., and, granted, it'll probably only work once.

But c'mon. Chicken on a string.

Summary, good luck, you will need it.

Fax Celestis
2007-03-02, 09:45 PM
Let us know about your eventual grisly demises.

Hopefully your compatriots will go first.

ExHunterEmerald
2007-03-02, 09:48 PM
Let us know about your eventual grisly demises.

Hopefully your compatriots will go first.
As the rogue? PFFFT.
I've evaded a falling ceiling, narrowly escaped a pit, disabled a trap, and fallen down a poisoned spike pit trap. All with MOSTLY good rolling.

Arbitrarity
2007-03-02, 11:25 PM
Wow... the description is so... evil :D.

Sadly, I think I recognize most of the situations.

However, the PC's around here that did ToH last time Baleful Teleported the construct into a wall!

Yahzi
2007-03-03, 01:47 AM
ToH advice:

1. Don't touch anything. Anything. Seriously.

2. Don't go through any doorways, entrances, arches, or rooms. In fact, don't go through the front door. Just turn around and go home. Now.





The thing that cheesed me off about ToH was that the dungeon was worth more than the treasure. As I recall, there is a 10x10x10 foot door of solid adamantium. And a bank vault made out of mithiril.

We wanted to just give up on the rest of the dungeon and dig out those two features. But our DM said they turned to lead when we removed them from the dungeon. Good call on his part....

We made it all the way through, but only because the DM read one of the traps wrong (it would have killed us).

Arbitrarity
2007-03-03, 01:09 PM
The 3.5 edition has changed the doors, etc to steel, but they look like mithral/adamantium.

Matthew
2007-03-03, 01:47 PM
As the rogue? PFFFT.
I've evaded a falling ceiling, narrowly escaped a pit, disabled a trap, and fallen down a poisoned spike pit trap. All with MOSTLY good rolling.

Sounds like it has been fun so far. If you have time, would you mind posting up what Character build you went with in the end or linking to it or whatever? Just curious.

ExHunterEmerald
2007-03-03, 02:00 PM
Sounds like it has been fun so far. If you have time, would you mind posting up what Character build you went with in the end or linking to it or whatever? Just curious.
Sure. I didn't end up doing everything (wands and magic especially), since the rest of the party was working to their own bits and sharing stuff, so between the four of us we have just about everything.

Terry's sheet is here. (http://www.thetangledweb.net/profiler/view.php?id=10652) Heads up, though, seems to be down for now. EDIT: There it goes.

As for "Fun," well, yes. But...
Okay, so we find a desecrated altar-type area. Looks normal, visages of the gods, lots of rotting human figures in the art. I search the altar, cleric follows me. Thanks to some evasion goodness, I split-jump the lightning bolt and backflip out of a fireball. Cleric doesn't, but he's tough. He makes it out.
Then for various reasons, like one of the players really wanting to get into a fight before we ended the session. We'd only killed one monster, a four-armed mutant gargoyle, only we hold-person-coup-de-graced it. So, with the DM encouraging us to finish this room before we break for the night, I go through.
And Terry goes LE and changes gender. He goes back in and asks th cleric to heal the female bit. The cleric is roleplaying a very TN attitude about balance, and will only do it if Terry swears (bluffs, actually, with a nat. 20,) that he'll serve the balance the rest of his days to be restored.
Yyyyyeah. Don't try to bluff someone with a sense motive of 28.
So that's a wash. I go through again, I'm back to CG, still female.
And that's about where we left it. The party won't help him in any way, so it looks like for the duration Terry's stuck.

Other than the general annoyance there, it -has- been fun. Mostly when I disarm traps without even rolling. Hee.

Oh, and earlier, because I thought it was funny, I thought I'd share.
One of the three uncovered entrances to the tomb, Terry is trying to open it from a distance using a grappling hook. Only I have to keep it taut in order to keep it from falling off. I get about halfway down the hallway when rocks fall...
After a brief conversation regarding +20 reflex saves and Evasion, Terry has done a jedi-style backflip-roll out of the tunnel, coming out on one knee, hands outstretched, with an inexplicable rose in his teeth.

Fax Celestis
2007-03-03, 02:06 PM
Sweet.

Looks like Evasion saves the day.

Yahzi
2007-03-03, 02:06 PM
The 3.5 edition has changed the doors, etc to steel, but they look like mithral/adamantium.
Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!

Man... that's as wrong as changing polymorph any object so you can't turn a sand grain into a beach!

:smallbiggrin:

Yahzi
2007-03-03, 02:19 PM
And Terry goes LE and changes gender.
That room was the source of my single greatest act of cheese.

Our party had survived ToH, and moved on. Now we're fighting a big bad evil cleric of the Norse pantheon (my character is a good cleric of the same pantheon). The NPC has levels on us, but we are a tough party (remind me to tell you how dragons got MR because of us), and I'd recently raised an army. So we besiege the BBEG in his lair.

The DM goes away for weeks, drawing up what he described as a long tunnel of absolute death. Traps, monsters, troops, you name it. Finally the big day comes.

We resolve it in 30 minutes, without touching the dice.

I tell the BBEG that before we tear our island apart in a civil war, we should try negotiating. I tell him I have arranged a private meeting with Odin, who will make him an offer to join our side. If he decides he's not interested, I'll return him to his lair, unharmed, and we'll do it the hard way.

Naturally he's suspicious. So I sign a contract: if he is any way dissatisfied with our attempts to restore things the way they were before he left his lair, he gets my soul. Poof! Automatic win.

The DM is going crazy. He knows we have a trick up our sleeve, but he can't figure it out. He knows we know that he's going to find some idiot clause, and thus invoke the contract and kill my character instantly. But he can't resist... he goes for it.

We teleport the BBEG to just outside that stupid door in the ToH (we disguised it by hanging up a pretty curtain).

I say, "Odin's waiting for you in there."

BBEG walks through the door (while the DM gives me funny looks).

I drop to my knees and pray - "Dear Odin, there is now a 14th level cleric of good alignment in the other room who needs a new patron. We can recruit to our cause very easily."

The text in ToH specifically states the character doesn't want to change back. So what is the BBEG gonna do? Odin offers him a job, he accepts. He walks out of the room and I salute him (he outranks me, after all).

"Ok, Boss, now what do we do?" I say.

We dug his 11th lvl Wizard wife out the lair (with his help it was easy) and tossed her through the door, too. The one problem was that while he wanted to become a man again, his wife was happy staying male...

The other problem is that we broke our DM. He never ran for us again. :smallredface:

ExHunterEmerald
2007-03-03, 02:24 PM
Sweet.

Looks like Evasion saves the day.

Oh, yes. Repeatedly.
Still missing his trouser titan, though.

Fax Celestis
2007-03-03, 02:25 PM
Oh, yes. Repeatedly.
Still missing his trouser titan, though.

Why?! WHY WOULD YOU WANT TO LIVE?

God, that makes me hurt just thinking about it.

ExHunterEmerald
2007-03-03, 02:37 PM
Why?! WHY WOULD YOU WANT TO LIVE?

God, that makes me hurt just thinking about it.
Terry is not very happy about this gate or his party. He's going to start by reminding them how he's risked his life the most in here, going ahead and enduring the traps, disabling them, and even was persuaded to go back and check a door we missed (all rooms trapped with magic arrows, and it was a dead end), and thus has earned their assistance.

Failing that, he's going to deck the cleric.

Attilargh
2007-03-03, 02:41 PM
That room was the source of my single greatest act of cheese.
You're my new hero. Shame about the DM, though.

Matthew
2007-03-03, 05:50 PM
Terry is not very happy about this gate or his party. He's going to start by reminding them how he's risked his life the most in here, going ahead and enduring the traps, disabling them, and even was persuaded to go back and check a door we missed (all rooms trapped with magic arrows, and it was a dead end), and thus has earned their assistance.

Failing that, he's going to deck the cleric.

Poor Terry (or should I say Teresa?). Oh well, such are the hazards of adventure... sounds like a fun transformation to roleplay, lots of opportunity for Hammer Horror style screaming...

Nahal
2007-03-03, 08:44 PM
What you need is one of those belts of gender switching.