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Monseigneur
2007-03-01, 12:19 PM
We all know the great trick:You can't see an enemy, you attack the magical darkness it's in. The purpose of this thread is to find new and creative ways to ruin all attempts at this. However, you cannot house-rule against it.

Example:"I attack the darkness."

"Alright. The darkness has hardness 80 and 5000 hit points per inch of thickness. Good luck."

Quietus
2007-03-01, 12:30 PM
Easy. Place another hemispherical spell inside of it. Find out what people think when their arrows bounce off, or when they watch their melee guy walk up, step into the darkness, and their screams suddenly get cut off.

Swordguy
2007-03-01, 12:32 PM
A darkness is simply the absence of light, you can't successfully attack something that isn't there. Problem solved.

The Great Skenardo
2007-03-01, 12:34 PM
Zeno's Arrow.
"Well, in order to hit the guy in the darkness, the arrow has to travel halfway through the darkness. Before it can get that far, it must travel half of that distance. And before it can get that far..."

Telonius
2007-03-01, 12:35 PM
Kidnap a local innocent and keep them with you inside the darkness. (Or, have an illusion of them up just before you cast darkness). The heroes might not want to attack in that case.

Buy a pair of Ring Gates. Mount one of them on the side of the wall next to where the adventurers will be, and put one of them in front of you. If somebody shoots you, it passes through the gate and hits them instead.

Inyssius Tor
2007-03-01, 12:36 PM
"Uhh... unless I missed something, Darkness is a 20-foot sphere. Do your characters normally have the BAB and the reach to attack, what, each of the 70 squares blanketed by darkness in one round (because if they don't, the hidden-by-shadows guy can just move to a space where your characters have already attacked)?"

"If the darkness is, like, five feet square... frankly, your villains are pretty low on Int. I mean, he's gotta be in there!" :smalltongue:

"I cast Magic Missile, and ready an action to five-foot step out of the way if someone charges me."

"The darkness attacks back."

The Great Skenardo
2007-03-01, 12:42 PM
Solution: Faulty quantum mechanics.

You've attacked the darkness in front of you, but the location of the enemy is unknown to you. Therefore, there exist simultaneously an infinite number of waveforms, some of which contain an enemy that has been struck, and some of which contain an enemy unharmed. Now, the act of observation determines the state, so you simultaneously will have hit her and not hit her until you actually can friggin' see her.

That Lanky Bugger
2007-03-01, 12:56 PM
PC: I attack the darkness!

DM: Great, swing at the darkness, roll to hit?

PC: I rolled a natural 20! Now I rolled another! Confirmed critical!

DM: You're doing good! Now roll damage!

PC: 4d6+20 means he takes 33 damage!

DM: Great! So, having successfully nailed the empty air with a critical hit, you hear a sharp whistling as you bring the blade down into the ground with a solid crunch, where it becomes stuck. It'll take a DC20 Strength check to remove it.

Edit: I would like to point out that one of my PCs developed a very successful tactic for foes in magically darkened spheres. He would perform a bull-rush THROUGH the darkness, and if he snagged a foe he'd do his best to push that foe out. Given he was a Half-Giant, it usually worked.

Swordguy
2007-03-01, 01:00 PM
Solution: Faulty quantum mechanics.

You've attacked the darkness in front of you, but the location of the enemy is unknown to you. Therefore, there exist simultaneously an infinite number of waveforms, some of which contain an enemy that has been struck, and some of which contain an enemy unharmed. Now, the act of observation determines the state, so you simultaneously will have hit her and not hit her until you actually can friggin' see her.

Wait, you're pulling a derivative of the Heisenburg Uncertainty Principle into this?

Sweet.

Thoughtbot360
2007-03-01, 01:02 PM
Uhh... unless I missed something, Darkness is a 20-foot sphere. Do your characters normally have the BAB and the reach to attack, what, each of the 70 squares blanketed by darkness in one round (because if they don't, the hidden-by-shadows guy can just move to a space where your characters have already attacked)? If so, what are your villains doing expecting to be effectively protected by second-level spells?

I know! Attacking the darkness=shooting blindly hoping to hit the bad guys. What is all this crazy stuff about ring gates (besides, how will the bad guy know where the archer is standing?) If you've become such an unadaptable control freak need to make your darkness (YOUR DARKNESS, FOR CRYING OUT LOUD!) out of McDickium (http://www.theharrow.com/rpg/outthinkinggm.html), then I think its time for your players to become complete smegheads (http://www.criticalmiss.com/issue10/CompSmeg1.html).

Edit: Dammit Tor! You edited it!

The Great Skenardo
2007-03-01, 01:05 PM
Wait, you're pulling a derivative of the Heisenburg Uncertainty Principle into this?

Sweet.

And the best part is, you'll never know if the explanation actually killed the catgirl until you look into the box! :smalltongue:

EDIT: Schroedinger's Catgirl experiment!

ExHunterEmerald
2007-03-01, 01:10 PM
Well, I have a counter-counter solution. There's nothing particularly against indiscriminate fireballing of the darkened area.
As for thwarting? I guess you could probably port an assassin into the darkness and ask your player if it's been three rounds yet...

The Great Skenardo
2007-03-01, 01:19 PM
Certainly. Fireball is a wonderful solution to concealment problems in general. I think the classical problem is with fighter-types or archers or mages attempting to target with an attack something they can't see. This is somewhat like trying to attack an invisible assailant in a large open room. Picking a square and swinging randomly probably isn't going to work.

mikeejimbo
2007-03-01, 01:21 PM
And the best part is, you'll never know if the explanation actually killed the catgirl until you look into the box! :smalltongue:

EDIT: Schroedinger's Catgirl experiment!

Quantum Physics: Is there any problem it can't make harder?

Swordguy
2007-03-01, 01:21 PM
And the best part is, you'll never know if the explanation actually killed the catgirl until you look into the box! :smalltongue:

EDIT: Schroedinger's Catgirl experiment!

*Sniff* That was beautiful man.

+1 for you.

Hyfigh
2007-03-01, 01:22 PM
Umm... Daylight spell?

Oh, creative... My bad.

The Great Skenardo
2007-03-01, 01:24 PM
*Sniff* That was beautiful man.

+1 for you.

Hee hee. Sigg'd.

dorshe1
2007-03-01, 01:26 PM
First, you hire a 20th level wizard. Then he creates spell 'Kill darkness' it is a level 8 spell so he can cast it a zillion times a day. He'll know the darkness is there because he casts divination spells and knows everything.

The End.

ExHunterEmerald
2007-03-01, 01:29 PM
Certainly. Fireball is a wonderful solution to concealment problems in general. I think the classical problem is with fighter-types or archers or mages attempting to target with an attack something they can't see. This is somewhat like trying to attack an invisible assailant in a large open room. Picking a square and swinging randomly probably isn't going to work.

Sure it will. You just need manpower.
ONE: Seal exits.
TWO: Line up at one end of the room, and advance in a line without a gap. Like how you do for covering an entire field for someone.

The Great Skenardo
2007-03-01, 01:32 PM
Sure it will. You just need manpower.
ONE: Seal exits.
TWO: Line up at one end of the room, and advance in a line without a gap. Like how you do for covering an entire field for someone.

...And hope like hell that she doesn't know Lightning bolt. I'm pretty sure you get an extra life or something if you manage to hit that many people at once with a lightning bolt; like jumping ten goombas in a row in Mario.

One imagines a small tinny tune playing after the deafening thunderclap and before the screams and scorched hair smells.

ExHunterEmerald
2007-03-01, 01:39 PM
...And hope like hell that she doesn't know Lightning bolt. I'm pretty sure you get an extra life or something if you manage to hit that many people at once with a lightning bolt; like jumping ten goombas in a row in Mario.

One imagines a small tinny tune playing after the deafening thunderclap and before the screams and scorched hair smells.

How's Stealthy McPredator gonna line 'em up for a lightning bolt? They're filling the whole five-foot line, and unless she's lodged in a wall, she's not going to be able to get the line of effect.

Quietus
2007-03-01, 01:43 PM
Skenardo, they'd only be able to catch one person with that lightning bolt, 'cause the line would be moving perpendicular to where the bolt would come from. It's their fireballs you need to worry about... those spreads can hurt.

Roderick_BR
2007-03-01, 01:47 PM
AoE spells are usually the best. 20 feet sphere? Unless the buy is floating, you have only 4 possible targets. 3 if you enter one of them yourself.

You can go invisible too, and wait till his magical darkness end. If he tries to flee, you can see (unless he casts invisibility also).
You could be mean and throw in some caltrops too XD

About the Heisenburg Uncertainty Principle idea...
Player: "I shot an arrow. Now, I may or may have not hit him"
DM: "Okay, so there's two possible outcomes. You hit him or you didn't hit him. You can't know if you hit him or not untill you see him. It means that he's both hit and unhit. That means he is now two possible results, two possible mages... Well, they both cast fireball at you."
:p

daggaz
2007-03-01, 02:29 PM
Gate a devil with see in darkness and send him on in... Tell him he can keep whatever souls he manages to find in there, it'll be like an easter egg hunt, only the eggs will be stumbling around blindly in plain sight.

And Roderick.. I know they usually reserve this for monkeygrip, but..

The Heisenburg Uncertainty Principal doesn't work that way!!!

The Great Skenardo
2007-03-01, 03:06 PM
Skenardo, they'd only be able to catch one person with that lightning bolt, 'cause the line would be moving perpendicular to where the bolt would come from. It's their fireballs you need to worry about... those spreads can hurt.

Eh, step to one side, cast defensively while occupying the bloke on the end's square. It'd be like
"Dodge this." ZZOT! Ding dada Ding! "Yeeoow!"

Grendita
2007-03-01, 03:12 PM
Get your party fighter, and another random member, you hand the end of a rope to each of them, and you get them to spread themselves out (Say 30ft) and run with the rope strung between them so that it should catch the target.

Meanwhile the mage and any archers you have wait for the sound of him falling on his ass (Or Jumping the rope or the "Oh crap!") to which they frag him!

Or the more comedic approach, take a Qualls Feather Token (Tree) throw it in and shout the command word, see how he copes with a tree suddenly sprouting in his hidey hole.

Nerd-o-rama
2007-03-01, 03:53 PM
You know, there are rules for attacking a square you can't see anything in. But you know that, I'm sure, and this is just ways to maximize your chances of finding the correct square and hitting?

Hmm...well, if they're moving, a Listen check to find them should be feasible. It's just opposed by their regular move silently. If you beat it by enough, you'll know what square they're in. Quicken True Strike, or do something else to negate miss chance, and fire away.

This isn't really very feasible, since it relies on them moving un-stealthily and on you having a good listen check and fifth-level arcane spells, but...I'll find something better later.

Monseigneur
2007-03-02, 01:12 PM
I like where this topic has gone. Made me laugh.

PC:I attack the darkness.

DM:You have been transported to the Soviet Russian demiplane. In Soviet Russia, darkness attacks you! It has the stats of a Tarrasque, plus it deals 5 negative levels with a successful hit.

Roderick_BR
2007-03-02, 01:24 PM
I like where this topic has gone. Made me laugh.

PC:I attack the darkness.

DM:You have been transported to the Soviet Russian demiplane. In Soviet Russia, darkness attacks you! It has the stats of a Tarrasque, plus it deals 5 negative levels with a successful hit.

Lol! Is it against the board's rules to use "In Sovietic Russia..." sigs?

Indon
2007-03-02, 01:36 PM
"Okay, roll a sunder attempt. Do you have a ghost touch weapon? Abstract concepts are incorporeal, don't you know."

Nerd-o-rama
2007-03-02, 02:06 PM
Lol! Is it against the board's rules to use "In Sovietic Russia..." sigs?

Well, in Soviet Russia, rules are against YOU! But I think it's legal on these American-hosted boards, yes.

ajkkjjk52
2007-03-02, 04:24 PM
Intimidation sometimes works, sometimes doesn't. I once encountered a patch of darkness and bluffed that I was going to cast fireball. (Let's see... where's my bat guano?)

Now, I couldn't cast fireball (evocation was my banned school and I was only 4th lvl anyway), but I figured the drow cleric we thought we were facing would come sprinting out to avoid the fireball. Turned out we were fighting a black dragon. Who could aim his breath weapon based on the mage he heard loudly announcing his plans.

Yeah..., saying you're going to attack the darkness is not always such a good idea.

Monseigneur
2007-03-02, 04:33 PM
Say it OOC. <________<;;;;;;;

Draz74
2007-03-03, 04:11 PM
Solution: Faulty quantum mechanics.

You've attacked the darkness in front of you, but the location of the enemy is unknown to you. Therefore, there exist simultaneously an infinite number of waveforms, some of which contain an enemy that has been struck, and some of which contain an enemy unharmed. Now, the act of observation determines the state, so you simultaneously will have hit her and not hit her until you actually can friggin' see her.

Once you stick your weapon into the darkness, though, isn't its location unknown, therefore making an infinite number of waveforms of your weapon that can hit an infinite number of possible enemies?

Let's kill Schroedinger's Catgirl as many times as possible.

NullAshton
2007-03-03, 04:21 PM
...so, then, cast darkness on a bunch of enemies, step out of the darkness... then plunge your sword into the darkness, simutanously hitting all of the enemies at once? Genius!

Indon
2007-03-03, 04:36 PM
Let's kill Schroedinger's Catgirl as many times as possible.

I'm pretty sure nobody will know if we've even managed to kill one Schrodinger's Catgirl until someone casts Daylight.

bosssmiley
2007-03-04, 02:41 PM
Solution: Faulty quantum mechanics.

You've attacked the darkness in front of you, but the location of the enemy is unknown to you. Therefore, there exist simultaneously an infinite number of waveforms, some of which contain an enemy that has been struck, and some of which contain an enemy unharmed. Now, the act of observation determines the state, so you simultaneously will have hit her and not hit her until you actually can friggin' see her.

Heh, puts me in mind of the Possible Sword from Mieville's "The Scar" (see Dragon #352).

Easy way to attack the darkness (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Darkness): plane shift to Lowestoft. :smallwink:

Or, if that's too cheesily metafictive for you, just area effect spell the darkness. I find poison gas clouds (targeted at a random empty square) hilariously effective. When the darkness effect winks out, then enemy = dead.

Arang
2007-03-04, 03:04 PM
I'm pretty sure nobody will know if we've even managed to kill one Schrodinger's Catgirl until someone casts Daylight.

They already did. It's got Sylvester and Sage Stallone, Stan Shaw, Amy Brenneman and a few others.

If there were to be an infinite amount of possible weapons possibly hitting possible enemies in the darkness, all of them would be simultaneously hit or not hit for an amount of damage between zero and infinity. Assume that they are all dead and not dead, then rocks fall, everyone dies, and make new characters.

And never have NPCs use Darkness again.

Viscount Einstrauss
2007-03-04, 03:32 PM
Just start casting lots of summoning spells inside the darkness.

"Hey guys! I hit the caster!"

*dragon steps out*

"...Hey cleric, I need cured!"

Assasinater
2007-03-04, 03:57 PM
Just have the target teleported to somewhere else after she casted darkness, and watch the players as they deploy their "clever" tactics.

Mage: "I cast fireball so, that it envelops the full quarter of the darkened area. Then I repeat that for the other quarters."
Rogue: "By the way, I shoot with my bow directly at the right tip of the darkened area, and take small steps to the left while I repeat."
Fighters: "We split and cover the four possible exits from the darkened area."
DM: "Very good."
Players: "So?"
DM: "So, what?"
Players: "What happens?"
DM: "Well, you can't see what happens because of the darkness."
Players: "Hmph... so we wait then."
DM: "You know, it might be a Extended spell."
Players: "..."

anphorus
2007-03-04, 04:22 PM
"Okay, roll a sunder attempt. Do you have a ghost touch weapon? Abstract concepts are incorporeal, don't you know."

Heh. "I attack the BBEG's "lust for vengance!" The possibilities are endless.

Viscount Einstrauss
2007-03-04, 04:26 PM
"I smite attack the opposing army's resolve!"
"I cast finger of death on the king's will to live!"
"Natural 20! Confirmed crit! I hit the DM's common sense!"

TheOOB
2007-03-04, 05:17 PM
I attack the darkness the same way I attack anything else, with my +5 flaming burst attack gnomes of throwing!

Arbitrarity
2007-03-04, 09:17 PM
Deeper darkness!

"We wait to see if he's dead."
"Ok, 5 days later..."

JoeFredBob
2007-03-04, 11:25 PM
You know, my party just had to fight practically an entire battle in darkness (and silence for several rounds too!) and were still fairly effective. If the enemy is doing something to you, you can probably tell where it's coming from (arrows, ray spells, fireball, anything like that gives a direction) and if you get within 5 feet of them you can see them. Also, many summoned things have the scent ability, which helps a lot.

Monseigneur
2007-03-05, 04:56 PM
I believe this thread should be renamed "The GITP Catgirl Massacre, with a healthy amount of cheese.".

Sam K
2007-03-05, 05:55 PM
If players attack the darkness, you must roll the dice to see if they get drunk.

Alternatively:

Player: "I attack the darkness."
DM: "You attack the darkness. It dies. Suddenly, a shadow leaps at you, shouting "I am Shadow Montoyaz, you killed my father, now prepare to die!""

What, you thought the darkness didn't have relatives too?

Arceliar
2007-03-05, 07:13 PM
This is where ye-olde Blind Fight, Whirlwind Attack, and a Spiked Chain come in handy. Enlarge person too, if you've got access to it.

But anyway, one time one of my players really wanted to cast magic missile at the darkness. So, I allowed it. However, I ruled that magic missiles produce a small amount of light...and obviously, excluding spell resistance and such, they always hit, that's why the spells so useful. So we had a runaway magic missile zipping around the room, chasing darkness it could never quite reach, till the darkness dissipated. At which point said missile froze in the air, as it had no obvious target.

To this day the missile remains there in that setting.