Tindertwigs! Why do they even exist?

[Crustypeanut]

Alright guys, been looking too heavily into the use of tindertwigs and various other alchemical goodies, and I've finally figured out basically how useless these things are.

For this, we're going to compare Flint & Steel, a Magnifying Glass, and a Tindertwig and their use of lighting a good old fashioned torch. We won't be using the spell Spark in this example, as I'm dealing with a non-spellcaster. Spark would be the best choice, though.
=================

Flint & Steel:
Round 1: Move Action to Retrieve Torch; Move Action to Retrieve Flint & Steel
Round 2: Full Round Action to Light Torch.
Total Rounds: 2


Magnifying Glass:
Round 1: Move Action to Retrieve Torch; Move Action to Retrieve Magnifying Glass
Round 2: Full Round Action to Light Torch (Provided you have Bright Light)
Total Rounds: 2


Tindertwig:
Round 1: Move Action to Retrieve Torch; Move Action to Retrieve Tindertwig
Round 2: Move Action to Strike Tindertwig; Standard Action to Light Torch
Total Rounds: 2

Now.. what really is the use of the tindertwig then?

Perhaps the "Standard Action to light a torch" is supposed to include the act of striking the tindertwig, whereas they included the "Move action to strike a tindertwig" is for those people who want to throw it into a pool of oil or something.

Thoughts? Am I understanding this wrong, or does the tindertwig just plain suck? Perhaps I should have given this rogue the Minor Spellcasting rogue talent so she could light things faster? The reason I'm even bothering is because I'm having an NPC light a fuse grenade - but every way I look at it, it will take three rounds to draw, light, and throw the thing, and it might very well blow up in her face.

[John Longarrow]

Turn 1 - Pull out Tindertwig, Light Tindertwig.
Turn 2 - Ready action to drop Tindertwig onto pool of oil when monster is in pool.

Can't do that with either of the others.

Use any time you would normally use a match.

[Crustypeanut]

Tindertwigs only last 1d2 rounds - and based off how spells work, if you roll a '1' on that 1d2, the tindertwig snuffs out just before your initiative on your next turn.

So theres a 50% chance that you couldn't even do that before the tindertwig snuffed out.

I actually had a friend who suggested giving this NPC slightly-modified tindertwigs that last 1d2+1 rounds, (Costing 2 gold each). She has a tindertwig tied to a Fuse Grenade, so that it'll only take a total of two rounds to draw, strike, light, and throw the fuse grenade, with no risk that the tindertwig will snuff out before she can use it or that the fuse grenade can go off in her face before she can throw it.

The players will, after they kill her, discover these new tindertwigs and can easily replicate them. Normal tindertwigs still suck, though.

[Broken Crown]

For this, we're going to compare Flint & Steel, a Magnifying Glass, and a Tindertwig and their use of lighting a good old fashioned torch. We won't be using the spell Spark in this example, as I'm dealing with a non-spellcaster. Spark would be the best choice, though.
=================

Flint & Steel:
Round 1: Move Action to Retrieve Torch; Move Action to Retrieve Flint & Steel
Round 2: Full Round Action to Light Torch.
Total Rounds: 2


Magnifying Glass:
Round 1: Move Action to Retrieve Torch; Move Action to Retrieve Magnifying Glass
Round 2: Full Round Action to Light Torch (Provided you have Bright Light)
Total Rounds: 2


Tindertwig:
Round 1: Move Action to Retrieve Torch; Move Action to Retrieve Tindertwig
Round 2: Move Action to Strike Tindertwig; Standard Action to Light Torch
Total Rounds: 2

Now.. what really is the use of the tindertwig then?
Well, here's is the problem. Flint and steel and magnifying glasses are unrealistically quick. Have you ever used a magnifying glass to light a fire? Ever managed to do it in six seconds, even in the brightest sunlight? Similarly, lighting a fire (other than a blowtorch) with a flint and steel is far from easy or reliable; I've never seen anyone do it on the first try no matter how good their tinder and kindling were.

(Notably, in 2e AD&D, fire-lighting used to be a skill. Matches weren't on the standard equipment list, but if they had been, they should have provided a huge bonus.)

Fire-lighting in D&D is just unrealistic, though less so than economics.

As to the point of tinder twigs from a purely game-mechanics perspective, they'll work in the absence of bright sunlight, so they're more useful than magnifying glasses in that respect. You can probably also strike a match one-handed (unlike flint and steel) and possibly manage a slow walk while doing it (similar to drawing a weapon). This isn't RAW, but it's logical.

[AMFV]

Tindertwigs are quiet in comparison to flint and steel, and work in the dark. Useful for arsonists, no?

Although I'm not sure if the rules support that, but it'd be easier to argue with the DM, and that's what matters in the end.

[Jafnvera]

They take the same amount of time, a standard and a move being equivalent to a full round, as is a move and a move) but you have the option to hold the tindertwig to use at a time that is not immediate so you can ready it.

On the magnifying glass, why you dont just buy a command word magic lighter(Wondrous item/Prestidigitation, as expanded upon in tome and blood here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20010707)) with 1 charge/day for 180gp? or one that has unlimited uses on command word for 900gp (both offereing other abilities beyond just starting fires)? Spending the 100gp on a magnifying glass is insane for any reason unless there is fluff for it, in which case the tindertwigs are equally valid.


Edit: just saw this was a pathfinder post and not a 3.5, I'm pretty sure the rules mentioned still stand however.

[SiuiS]

Tindertwigs only last 1d2 rounds - and based off how spells work, if you roll a '1' on that 1d2, the tindertwig snuffs out just before your initiative on your next turn.

So theres a 50% chance that you couldn't even do that before the tindertwig snuffed out.

I actually had a friend who suggested giving this NPC slightly-modified tindertwigs that last 1d2+1 rounds, (Costing 2 gold each). She has a tindertwig tied to a Fuse Grenade, so that it'll only take a total of two rounds to draw, strike, light, and throw the fuse grenade, with no risk that the tindertwig will snuff out before she can use it or that the fuse grenade can go off in her face before she can throw it.

The players will, after they kill her, discover these new tindertwigs and can easily replicate them. Normal tindertwigs still suck, though.

Tinder twigs exist because lighting fires used to be hard and one of those thigs DMs wouldn't hassle you for until they wanted to screw with you, and tinder twigs are screw proof.

[Coidzor]

Possible Solution: Make retrieving them a swift action if they're conveniently stored, make striking them a swift action and using them to light non-prepared fuel sources a standard action and prepared fuel sources a move action.

As to why they exist? They're matches. Whats your goblin going to light his stogie with if not either matches or some form of lighter that isn't covered by the basic rules?

[AMFV]

Possible Solution: Make retrieving them a swift action if they're conveniently stored, make striking them a swift action and using them to light non-prepared fuel sources a standard action and prepared fuel sources a move action.

As to why they exist? They're matches. Whats your goblin going to light his stogie with if not either matches or some form of lighter that isn't covered by the basic rules?

Wait... wait just one second... there are rules for stogies in Pathfinder?!?!? I'd have jumped ship so much faster if I'd have known that... now I must wallow in my regret.

[Coidzor]

Wait... wait just one second... there are rules for stogies in Pathfinder?!?!? I'd have jumped ship so much faster if I'd have known that... now I must wallow in my regret.

You need rules for cigars beyond knowing that tobacco is cultivated in-setting like every other kitchen-sink setting? :smalltongue:

[AMFV]

You need rules for cigars beyond knowing that tobacco is cultivated in-setting like every other kitchen-sink setting? :smalltongue:

What?!? No Tobacconist archetypes? No rules for smoking boosting charisma because it makes you look cool... That way lies only madness.

[Coidzor]

What?!? No Tobacconist archetypes? No rules for smoking boosting charisma because it makes you look cool... That way lies only madness.

The real reason Zon Kuthon went crazy.

Though you can kludge together a Smoking Jacket that boosts some of that, unless I'm misremembering how the crafting guidelines and rules were changed.

[Diachronos]

RAW, they're just a way to light something quickly with only one hand when you're not in bright sunlight.

The problem is that, for whatever reason, the devs thought that taking 6 seconds to strike a little stick against a rough surface was realistic. Even if you have to try a couple times it only takes half that to light the thing realistically. I'm in agreement that it should only be a swift action to light it/retrieve it from a convenient place. Striking and lighting something would probably be a movement action.

[AMFV]

The real reason Zon Kuthon went crazy.

Though you can kludge together a Smoking Jacket that boosts some of that, unless I'm misremembering how the crafting guidelines and rules were changed.

Well I mean they have a gunslinger, so I assume that the Marlboro Man can't be that far behind.

[Crustypeanut]

What I've decided to do with my game is allow players (and NPCs) tie the tindertwigs to what they plan on lighting with string or twine - this is generally done out of combat (such as at camp). Doing so, they retrieve the tindertwig along with said item. In this case, I'm using a fuse grenade.

And although I'm not going to change the basic Tindertwig's stats for now, I have made a small, regional variant to perform how I want it.

Called a Varisian Tindertwig, they were made by Varisian fireworks specialists - they take only a swift action to strike, and last for 1d2+1 rounds. They cost 2 gp and are effectively made the same way. As an added flavor-effect, their small flame burns blue-green.

Just a small, setting-specific variant that I'll be using quite often considering that the campaign is set in Varisia.

Basically a way for me to DM-Fiat this on the fly when I wanted to throw a fuse grenade at my players in the middle of combat, without seeming so cheaty as to change an object they already know about.

Rather than taking 3 rounds to safely retrieve, light, and throw a fuse grenade (Two at minimum, but you risk a few things), now it takes a mere two, provided the tindertwig is tied to the grenade.

I still think it should be a swift action to strike a tindertwig, then perhaps a move action to light the object, though.

[Dalebert]

Lighting things is way more of a frustration than should be allowed. If I waste one of my cantrip slots on it, spark should work on creatures that are soaked in oil. A couple thoughts--

Just keep a lit torch handy. It feels weird when the whole party has everburning torches. Those can be hidden as needed to snuff the light but are no good for lighting things. Downside is it's a beacon and kills a lot of stealth options but that may not matter if you have a party with non-darkvision members.

Lanterns already exist. It doesn't seem like much of a stretch to get DM approval for a slightly modified version with a much smaller flame and a little hood on a hinge that (mostly) conceals the light from the tiny flame but can be swiftly opened. It should last much longer than a standard lantern on a flask of oil so it could be smaller and run the same amount of time with a smaller reservoir. The problem is holding it. You could incorporate it into a staff or other item you're already holding perhaps, though if you were trying to fight with the staff, I'm sure it would have a high chance of going out. Unseen servant also comes to mind or even dancing lantern.



What?!? No Tobacconist archetypes? No rules for smoking boosting charisma because it makes you look cool... That way lies only madness.

This has inspired me to make a new item out of pure spite for political correctness. Apparently Constantine is being adapted for TV right now and he will somehow be a smoker and yet never actually be smoking on-screen. Also, he will no longer be bi.

[Crustypeanut]

Though it wouldn't work for my NPC (Who's a rogue), I do really like the idea of Unseen Servants. I'll probably use them with my Wizard in another campaign - though he's a summoner, he's only level 3 and could benefit from an Unseen Servant with a torch, so he can light fuse grenades/pellet grenades faster.

In fact.. using his Tiefling Prehensile Tail, he could use a Swift Action to retrieve the grenade, move to light it with the torch that his servant is holding, then throw it, all in one round.

Granted, he doesn't need a torch due to his darkvision, but its good for if he needs to throw a number of grenades in any given day, and it would give him more firepower than summoning 1d3+1 augmented fiendish hawks for a few rounds.

[Raimun]

Get dark vision.

Or light the torch before you go in to the darkness.

And wasting two rounds to inflict a die or two of fire damage is a bad call. Unless you fight monsters such as CR 1 "Oiled Straw and Matchstick Golems". With pyrophobia.

Anyone should have better options in combat than using mundane utility items.

[Dalebert]

There's a magician's trick (real life magicians) that involves cutting the friction strip from a match box, folding it, sticking the tip of a match in it, and paper-clipping it shut. Now you have a self-lighting match when you pull it out. This contraption can be fastened to the inside of your sleeve or a shirt pocket. It makes it look like you've just conjured a lit match. You might be able to demonstrate this for your DM and convince him to let you have a similar contraption in the game to both draw and light a tindertwig (basically a match) as a swift action or at least as a move action.

I agree though these are all solutions for low-level characters. This was an issue for me because alchemist's fire is still prohibitively expensive at 1st and even 2nd level and flaming oil is still sort of worthwhile. I can also picture a few situations when you desperately need to burn things in combat and just might not have a fire spell handy. I feel like alchemist's fire is way over-priced for its value. At low levels, it might be useful but is too expensive. At higher levels, there are better things available for not much more cost (like a wand of burning hands).

[Crustypeanut]

Get dark vision.

Or light the torch before you go in to the darkness.

And wasting two rounds to inflict a die or two of fire damage is a bad call. Unless you fight monsters such as CR 1 "Oiled Straw and Matchstick Golems". With pyrophobia.

Anyone should have better options in combat than using mundane utility items.

The torch used in the OP was nothing more than an example - I'm much more of a Sunrod or Light (Or Darkvision) person for my illuminating needs. In the actual game I'm running, the question came up due to a pellet grenade I was having an NPC use. I hadn't read just how "Bleargh" it was to prep and throw those, thus my response on here.

But yeah, issue solved for now, though its not perfect. After this combat is over (Play-by-post, takes ages to get anything done), I'll speak to my players about possible homebrew rules for Tindertwigs. The Investigator in particular would benefit from being able to use them faster, especially since he has no real way to contribute in combat right now except for alchemical items, knowledge checks, and spotting people trying to sneak.

Of course, I'd benefit from the homebrew rules as well, since I can use them against my players ;)

[magwaaf]

because people like matches. that's it. why can't they exist?