Even Thog would groan...

[Everyman]

My playing group is messing around in an...enhanced version of Undermountain (see WotC website for info). The concept for the game is really simple:
1) Build the cheesiest character you can.
2) Build the weirdest character you can.
3) Have fun.
4) Make things hurt.
Ergo, this is an extreme dungeon crawl.

Recently, I have become giggly over my newest monster: a half-ogre war
hulk. Here's my character after stat adjustments and enhancements:

Barb. 3/Fighter 2/War Hulk 10 (ECL 17)
Str 50 Dex 18 Con 30 Int/Wis/Cha 3

BAB: 5
Feats: Power Attack, Cleave, Imp. Bullrush, Awesome Blow, Endurance, Steadfast Determination, Extra Rage, [ONE FEAT UNDECIDED]

Before anyone asks, yes...those mental stats are intentional. I don't really need'em and I did roll those legally. Besides, the triple 3 actually gives me a bit of an advantage. Our DM is utilizing an "insanity" system, but my total lack of mental aptitude actually renders me immune to system (DM's call).

What I need from you guys is a brief review of what I have going for me, some suggestions for the last feat, and any equipment ideas that you see necessary (I'm thinking I definately want the slippery mind ability on my armor). I like all my chosen feats as is (expect perhaps the Extra Rage feat), so please don't comment on those unless you know of a better feat that will get the same task done.

Thanks for you help!
PS. Any Core, Complete, PHBII, and DMGII is fine. Beyond that, I may have to check with my DM.
PSS. We got the War Hulk progression online, hence why the Minis book is not present for the materials I may use in the game.
EDIT: Grammer

[martyboy74]

Get a spiked chain, and potentially a ring of expansion. Works wonders with the War Hulk's 10th level ability.

Also, why cleave? At ECL 17, anything you see you won't be able to kill in one round anyways.

[Everyman]

Cleave is required to become a War Hulk.:smallsmile:

[Everyman]

I apologize for the doublepost, but the forums posted the above message twice. Mods, please don't hurt me.

[Bears With Lasers]

You've got Improved Bullrush; snag Shock trooper.

Not having Improved Trip is a crime, but you can't get the Expertise prerequisite; if you can, take the Wolf Lodge Berserker feat from the Unapproachable East FR book, that'll let you qualify for Imp. Trip without Expertise and give you a bonus.

[Everyman]

Unfortunately, I don't have that book, Bears. Is the feat listed anywhere online...perhaps on the WotC site?

[Fax Celestis]

If you take another level of Barbarian and lose one level of War Hulk, you can get an iterative attack.

Just a thought.

[daggaz]

Recently, I have become giggly over my newest monster: a half-ogre war
hulk. Here's my character after stat adjustments and enhancements:

Barb. 3/Fighter 2/War Hulk 10 (ECL 17)
Str 50 Dex 18 Con 30 Int/Wis/Cha 3
...

What I need from you guys is a brief overview of what I have going for me...


Yeah... I'd say you have that going for you. Is that some kinda thing from the war hulk PrC?

[Everyman]

The Str bonus is. The Con bonus is just good ol' fashioned power gaming.
...
Though I wonder if I can be called a power gamer if I intentionally let Imp. Trip slip past me.

Fax: That's a good point. I may take your suggestion.

[Bears With Lasers]

Unfortunately, I don't have that book, Bears. Is the feat listed anywhere online...perhaps on the WotC site?

Nope.

Quick cheesy tip for War Hulk: use a Skillful weapon (enhancement from the Complete Arcane). It basically gives you 3/4 BAB instead of what you've got. Mm, iterative attacks.

[Fax Celestis]

Wolf Lodge Berserker (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Wolf_Berserker,Una).

[brian c]

There's a feat called Large and in Charge, I forget where it is, probably Monster Manual. If you have reach 10ft then you get an attack of opportunity anytime an opponent comes within 5 ft of you, and if you succeed you push them back. Kind like spiked chain, but you don't need that specific weapon.

[Fax Celestis]

Also: if you have a party cleric who's going to be using Divine Metacheese, get them a pair of Bracelets of Spell Sharing, and wear the other one yourself.

[Everyman]

Bears, Fax...
I know I've never told you this before but...
...
*sniff*
I love you guys.

Unfortunately, my DM has informed me that the Wolf Lodge Beserker feat is a No-can-do. However, Skillful is definately something to look into. Thank you both for the input.

On a side note, perhaps grabbing Spiked Chain prof. wouldn't be a bad investment. It's not exactly Imp. Trip, but it does make it easy for me to trip without getting punished.

[Bears With Lasers]

Don't waste the feat on a spiked chain. Just carry a guisarme, and a spiked gauntlet, armor spikes, blade boots, etc. etc.

[Fax Celestis]

Perhaps also...what was that weapon I saw yesterday...Oh, it's in the DMG-II, one of the weapon enhancements. I forget what it did exactly, but it'd be perfect here.

[Everyman]

Fax, are you referring to Brutal Surge?

[Fax Celestis]

YES. Yes I am.

[Everyman]

Good thought.

On a side note, does Skillful give me extra attacks? I lent my book out and can't remember the exact wording of the ability.

[Bears With Lasers]

Yeah, it does. Iterative attacks come from BAB. Skillful sets your bab to 3/4 levels.

[Everyman]

True. I just couldn't remember if it let me treat my BAB as 3/4 level for attacks or if it gave me all the bells and whistles for having a BAB that high.

Thanks!

[Dark Tira]

As a side note, skillful also gives proficiency in the weapon as well, so go with a spiked chain.

[Everyman]

I was not aware of that.:smallamused:

Now, I'm off to build said character completely. Thank you all for your help!

[Darrin]

On a side note, perhaps grabbing Spiked Chain prof. wouldn't be a bad investment. It's not exactly Imp. Trip, but it does make it easy for me to trip without getting punished.

Will your DM allow variant classes? The Exoticist (Fighter variant from Dragon #310) gets four Exotic Weapon Proficiencies instead of Martial Proficiency (which you have anyway via Barbarian). Other than Spiked Chain, EWP: Halfling, EWP: Kitchen Sink, and EWP: Rules Loophole might be amusing.

Wolf Totem Barbarian (UA p.49) gets Improved Trip as a Bonus Feat at 2nd level instead of Uncanny Dodge and Trap Sense. Ape Totem Barbarian (UA p.48) gets Power Attack at 3rd instead of Fast Movement and Uncanny Dodge.

You might want to consider the Whirling Frenzy variant from UA, +4 Str/+4 Dex and an extra attack instead of +4 Con.

If you've got room for it... would Knockdown be good, or is that mostly unnecessary with this build?

[Bears With Lasers]

Nice catch on the Wolf Totem barbarian.

Whirling Frenzy's a good idea, too.

[brian c]

There's a feat called Large and in Charge, I forget where it is, probably Monster Manual. If you have reach 10ft then you get an attack of opportunity anytime an opponent comes within 5 ft of you, and if you succeed you push them back. Kind like spiked chain, but you don't need that specific weapon.

I found it; it's in Sword and Fist (3.0) but your DM might still allow it. It's not listed with the feats, it's a sidebar on pg61 when they're talking about large fighters (different sized monks, and reach). I still do recommend the feat; it's sort of a poor man's spiked chain in that it keeps people away from you.

[The_Snark]

Instead of that, if your DM is crazy enough to allow it with a spiked chain get Knockdown, listed under the divine section of the SRD (because it was in Deities and Demigods). Allows free trip attacks every time you deal more than 10 points of damage, which with this character... is with every attack.

So you attack, hit, get a free trip, get another free attack from Knockdown, hit them with an AoO when they try to get up, trip them again, rinse, repeat. There is a reason this thing stayed in 3.0.

Edit- Link. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineAbilitiesFeats.htm#knockDown) I can't make it link to the feat directly, so you'll have to scroll down.

[Fax Celestis]

Instead of that, if your DM is crazy enough to allow it with a spiked chain get Knockdown, listed under the divine section of the SRD (because it was in Deities and Demigods). Allows free trip attacks every time you deal more than 10 points of damage, which with this character... is with every attack.

So you attack, hit, get a free trip, get another free attack from Knockdown, hit them with an AoO when they try to get up, trip them again, rinse, repeat. There is a reason this thing stayed in 3.0.

Edit- Link. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineAbilitiesFeats.htm#knockDown) I can't make it link to the feat directly, so you'll have to scroll down.

Uh, Deities and Demigods was updated to 3.5 with the 3.5 Update Packet. Knockdown is perfectly acceptable and is 3.5 legal.

[The_Snark]

Is it? Interesting. Hadn't known that, but now that I look there are changes in the Epic and Deity sections, so I guess those have both updated.

Your DM still may not allow it, of course.

[Draz74]

Is it? Interesting. Hadn't known that, but now that I look there are changes in the Epic and Deity sections, so I guess those have both updated.

Your DM still may not allow it, of course.

Or may be sane enough to house rule, "If you trip someone for free using Knock-Down, you don't get another free attack against them from Improved Trip."

It's a pretty balanced feat with that little caviat.

[The_Snark]

True, though I'd rather house-rule that you can't trip someone with an attack of opportunity if they're drawing it by standing up.

[brian c]

True, though I'd rather house-rule that you can't trip someone with an attack of opportunity if they're drawing it by standing up.

Actually, RAW says that when someone is standing up from prone, the AoO on them still counts as if they are prone (thus you can't trip someone while they're trying to stand up).

[Everyman]

...which I already listed as one of my feats (read first post).

[BCOVertigo]

Just a thought, would you take any sort of attack penalty from wearing an exotic saddle and having a smaller party member with a few ranks in ride hold on?

[Arbitrarity]

Actually, RAW says that when someone is standing up from prone, the AoO on them still counts as if they are prone (thus you can't trip someone while they're trying to stand up).

Since it provokes an AOO, does this mean you need a concentration check?
"In general, if an action wouldn’t normally provoke an attack of opportunity, you need not make a Concentration check to avoid being distracted. "

And on top of that, if you can stand, and get smacked down by a fighter, and not fall to the ground, then this seems... odd.

And now, for technicalities!

"You can try to trip an opponent as an unarmed melee attack. You can only trip an opponent who is one size category larger than you, the same size, or smaller.

Making a Trip Attack
Make an unarmed melee touch attack against your target. This provokes an attack of opportunity from your target as normal for unarmed attacks.

If your attack succeeds, make a Strength check opposed by the defender’s Dexterity or Strength check (whichever ability score has the higher modifier). A combatant gets a +4 bonus for every size category he is larger than Medium or a -4 penalty for every size category he is smaller than Medium. The defender gets a +4 bonus on his check if he has more than two legs or is otherwise more stable than a normal humanoid. If you win, you trip the defender. If you lose, the defender may immediately react and make a Strength check opposed by your Dexterity or Strength check to try to trip you.

Avoiding Attacks of Opportunity
If you have the Improved Trip feat, or if you are tripping with a weapon (see below), you don’t provoke an attack of opportunity for making a trip attack.

Being Tripped (Prone)
A tripped character is prone. Standing up is a move action.

Tripping a Mounted Opponent
You may make a trip attack against a mounted opponent. The defender may make a Ride check in place of his Dexterity or Strength check. If you succeed, you pull the rider from his mount.

Tripping with a Weapon
Some weapons can be used to make trip attacks. In this case, you make a melee touch attack with the weapon instead of an unarmed melee touch attack, and you don’t provoke an attack of opportunity.

If you are tripped during your own trip attempt, you can drop the weapon to avoid being tripped. "


Nothing is said about opponents having to be standing! :smallwink:

[Rigeld2]

Sure. But heres what happens.

Prone person attempts to stand up.
AoO provoked, trip attack is chosen.
Prone person is tripped. Since hes already prone, nothing special happens.
Prone person stands up.

Who cares if you dont have to be standing to be tripped? If youre not standing, you get tripped, but since youre already prone........

[Thoughtbot360]

Before anyone asks, yes...those mental stats are intentional. I don't really need'em and I did roll those legally. Besides, the triple 3 actually gives me a bit of an advantage. Our DM is utilizing an "insanity" system, but my total lack of mental aptitude actually renders me immune to system (DM's call).

No problem: The Unspeakably Awful Horror Man Was Not Meant To Know (tm) is momentarily purplexed about why your brain didn't eat itself like the rest of the party, but then tells you jump into the nearby 20,000 foot pit, "Cuz' there's candy down there." :smallbiggrin:

Yes, I have been on the "Twist my wish" forum.

[brian c]

Sure. But heres what happens.

Prone person attempts to stand up.
AoO provoked, trip attack is chosen.
Prone person is tripped. Since hes already prone, nothing special happens.
Prone person stands up.

Who cares if you dont have to be standing to be tripped? If youre not standing, you get tripped, but since youre already prone........

Almost, but not quite. You actually cannot make a prone person the target of a trip attack; minor technical difference but the net result is right. It may not make sense, but per RAW you can't very well stop someone from standing up.

[Thiel]

And besides, you can't trip someone who provokes an AoO from standing up from prone since you attack him/her before he/she gets up.

Argh simued

[Bears With Lasers]

Almost, but not quite. You actually cannot make a prone person the target of a trip attack; minor technical difference but the net result is right. It may not make sense, but per RAW you can't very well stop someone from standing up.
Sure you can. Readied actions.

[Rigeld2]

Almost, but not quite. You actually cannot make a prone person the target of a trip attack; minor technical difference but the net result is right. It may not make sense, but per RAW you can't very well stop someone from standing up.
Yes, yes you can. FAQ supports it, and RAW doesnt say anything about only tripping standing targets.

Now, its pointless to do it, as I showed, since the trip lands before they stand, making them Prone when they are already, and then they stand up... but if you just whack them on the AoO and ready an action to trip them when they stand up, youre gtg.

[NullAshton]

Yes, yes you can. FAQ supports it, and RAW doesnt say anything about only tripping standing targets.

Now, its pointless to do it, as I showed, since the trip lands before they stand, making them Prone when they are already, and then they stand up... but if you just whack them on the AoO and ready an action to trip them when they stand up, youre gtg.

Until your opponent decides to just forget it, and make full attacks while on the ground, prone. Hey, you just get a couple of -4 penalties...

[Darrin]

So you attack, hit, get a free trip, get another free attack from Knockdown, hit them with an AoO when they try to get up, trip them again, rinse, repeat. There is a reason this thing stayed in 3.0.


Unfortunately, the errata for Sword&Fist put the kibosh on the Knockdown + Improved Trip combo:




p. 7, Knockdown
Insert to end of Benefit:
12/5/01 3 Sword and Fist Errata

Use of this feat cannot be combined with Improved Trip to generate an extra attack, and successful use of this feat does not grant an extra attack through the Cleave or Great Cleave feats.
Insert may into "you may make a trip attack as a free action."
After "whenever you deal 10 or more points of damage to your opponent in melee" insert: with a single attack


I believe you *do* get the +4 bonus from Improved Trip on the trip check, but supposedly Knockdown is not actually tripping them, it's just using a similar mechanic to simulate knocking someone down with the force of the blow. (There may additional errata on what specifically can trigger a free attack via Improved Trip... not sure if AoO or Cleave-type attacks count.)

This is why I was wondering if Knockdown would be worth it, since all it does is allow you to attack first then trip, rather than the other way around:

Improved Trip = Trip Attempt + Free Attack
Knockdown = Attack + Free Trip Attempt

Mechanically, I'm not sure there's an advantage to the order in which you trip/attack.

[NullAshton]

BY attacking then getting a free trip attempt, you're focusing on damage instead of knocking them down. You get the attack even if you fail the trip attempt.

[Rigeld2]

Unfortunately, the errata for Sword&Fist put the kibosh on the Knockdown + Improved Trip combo:
Thats errata for S&F. The feat exists in the Divine section of the SRD. RAW, one doesnt apply to another, especially since S&F is 3.0 and the SRD is 3.5.

[Darrin]

Thats errata for S&F. The feat exists in the Divine section of the SRD. RAW, one doesnt apply to another, especially since S&F is 3.0 and the SRD is 3.5.

It looks like the same feat from S&F. I'm not sure why errata from 3.0 would no longer be relevant in 3.5.

I guess... *shudder* CustServ would have to clarify that.

[brian c]

Yes, yes you can. FAQ supports it, and RAW doesnt say anything about only tripping standing targets.

Now, its pointless to do it, as I showed, since the trip lands before they stand, making them Prone when they are already, and then they stand up... but if you just whack them on the AoO and ready an action to trip them when they stand up, youre gtg.

I wish I could remember where, but I recall reading something, in the rules that said exactly what I'm saying, that you can't make a trip attack as your AoO on someone in the process of standing up.

[Rigeld2]

It looks like the same feat from S&F. I'm not sure why errata from 3.0 would no longer be relevant in 3.5.
Its perfectly relevant if the errated piece didnt get updated.

Knockdown got reprinted in 3.5, so the updated one is the one to use.