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gr8artist
2014-07-17, 05:22 PM
We could spend ages debating ways to balance, fix, and work around some of the feats present in 3.5/PF (looking at you, Leadership). But I think it's possible to come up with adequate or suitable fixes to some of the simpler feats in a much shorter amount of time. What I propose is that we pick one feat each week, and everybody try to pitch in at least one idea that might help fix that feat. We'll list all the homebrewed fixes compiled, and vote on our favorite. Then we'll move on to another feat.
If there's a particular feat you want everyone to chime in on, mention it, and we'll add it to the list. A feat fix should include derived feats/feat chains that follow the same purpose, so we won't need to list Improved Sunder and Greater Sunder on separate weeks. Feats that make up the basis for several trees should probably be designed to fix one tree or purpose.
Spells improve as their caster levels up. Likewise, feats should improve with level or BAB. We also want to add more versatility to the fixed feats, though this is never expected to fix the inherent problems between the fighter and the wizard.

This week: Dodge and its derivatives.
Voting: Favorite Weapon Focus fix.

Dodge
Dodge grants a +1 dodge bonus to AC. This bonus increases by +1 at +4 BAB and every 4 BAB thereafter, to a maximum of +6 when your BAB reaches +20. You lose this bonus while flat footed or denied your dexterity bonus to AC. While fighting defensively or using the total defense action or combat expertise feat, you can spend an immediate action to double this dodge bonus against one attack. If you do, you lose the benefits of this feat until the start of your next turn.

Mobility allows you to ignore all attacks of opportunity made by 1 creature each round, though only attacks you provoked by moving through its threatened area. Mobility also includes the benefits of spring attack and shot on the run when your BAB reaches +6.

Spring attack and shot on the run are absorbed. Whirlwind attack is no longer derived from these feats.
Dodge: You gain a dodge bonus to your AC equal to half your base attack bonus or half your ranks in acrobatics, whichever is higher, to a maximum of your max dex bonus to AC. A condition that makes you lose your Dex bonus to AC also makes you lose the benefits of this feat.

Mobility: If you have a dodge bonus to AC, you gain an insight bonus to tumble attempts equal to the dodge bonus.
Dodge: At the start of a round, you designate one or more opponents and receive a +2 dodge bonus to Armor Class against attacks from those opponents until the start of the next round. The maximum number of opponents you may designate is equal to your dexterity bonus.
A condition that makes you lose your Dexterity bonus to Armor Class (if any) also makes you lose dodge bonuses. Also, dodge bonuses stack with each other, unlike most other types of bonuses.

Mobility (prereq 15 Dex OR 15 Str): Your base speed is increased by 10 ft.
In addition, you get a +4 dodge bonus to Armor Class against attacks of opportunity caused when you move out of or within a threatened area. A condition that makes you lose your Dexterity bonus to Armor Class (if any) also makes you lose dodge bonuses.
Dodge bonuses stack with each other, unlike most types of bonuses.

Spring Attack: When using the attack action with a melee or ranged weapon, you can move both before and after the attack, provided that your total distance moved is not greater than your speed. Moving in this way does not provoke an attack of opportunity from the defender you attack, though it might provoke attacks of opportunity from other creatures, if appropriate. You canít use this feat if you are wearing heavy armor.
You must move at least 5 feet both before and after you make your attack in order to utilize the benefits of Spring Attack.
Dodge (req's base reflex save of +4): You may substitute your total Reflex Save Modifier, (i.e. base save + all bonus's), plus 10 for your total AC, (i.e. including all modifiers). You also gain a +2 Circumstance modifier to all Reflex Saves, (this does apply to it's use via this feat).

Lightning Reflexes (req's Dodge and base ref save of +7): You may take 10 on any Reflex save even if under pressure, hurried e.t.c. In addition for the purposes of using the dodge feat your circumstance modifier to Reflex Saves improves to +5

Other feats mimic this mechanic using Fort and Will saves in place of AC, similar to 4.0's defense system.

Mobility (req's Dex 20): So long as you do not move at a speed greater than your base movement speed for the movement type being used you do not provoke Attacks of Opportunity. You may take this feat a second time, if you do, you may move at any speed without provoking attacks of opportunity.

Then there's the Power Through, IPT, and new Spring Attack feats. Listing here in a spoiler because he's taken SA out of the Dodge feat tree, but it's still related.
Power Through:
Requirements: BAB +4

For every attack, (ranged or melee), that hit's you may make another attack at half your full BAB. This attack must be made with the same weapon and is subject to all the normal rules that would apply, (so if you used the Manyshot feat the Manyshot attack roll penalty would apply). Bonus attacks granted by this feat do not grant further bonus attacks.

Replaces the Cleave Feat

Improved Power Through:
Requirements: BAB +8, Power Through Feat

Bonus attacks due to the Power Through Feat are now made at full BAB instead of half full BAB.

Replaces the Grat Cleave feat

Spring Attack:
Requirements: BAB +12, Improved Power Through Feat

Any time you are allowed an attack, (melee or ranged), except those granted by Cleave and Great Cleave feats, you may move upto your base movement speed. This movement may occur before or after the attack, or may be split between the two. This feat cannot allow you to exceed your base movement speed or the normal limit on your movement for the type of attack you are making, whichever is higher. If you make multipule attacks then each grants you movement though the total must still adhere to the limits above. This feat functions whilst mounted so long as you and your mount act at the same initiative step. If you and your mount do not act at the same initiative step then your mount must also posses this feat for you to use it.

Replaces Spring Attack, Shot on the Run, and Ride By Attack
Dodge: Add your base reflex save to your armor class as a dodge bonus subject to the following limitations. If you wear armor or use a shield subtract your armor check penalty from this bonus. This bonus is always at least +1 even if you have no reflex save or your armor check penalty would reduce the bonus below +1. This bonus may never exceed your class level +3. Any circumstance which would cause you to lose your dexterity modifier to AC also negates any dodge bonus. Dodge bonuses stack together unlike other types of bonuses.

Mobility: Any time you would be subject to an attack of opportunity provoked by movement you may immediately make a Jump or Tumble check with a bonus equal to your bonus from the Dodge feat vs a DC of the attackers attack roll. If you succeed the attack misses and you may make a free 5' step before continuing your movement normally. Any condition that causes you to lose your dex bonus to AC (if any) also causes you to lose access to this feat.
(note that much of this terminology is from 3.5 but has equivalent checks in PF)

Spring Attack: As a full round action, you can move, make a single attack and move again. This movement never draws an attack of opportunity from your target but does provoke attacks from other enemies as normal. For every opponent who is granted an attack of opportunity against you, because of your movement before your attack, you deal an additional +2 damage typed as your attack would normally deal. This damage is multiplied if you critically hit. You must move at least 10' before making your attack and cannot attack an opponent who is adjacent to you at the start of your turn. The total distance that you move cannot be greater than your speed. At +12 and +18 BAB you may make an additional attack, all be it with a cumulative -5 penalty to each additional attack. The bonus damage from provoked attacks of opportunity applies to these additional attacks as well.
You can add 1 + 1/4 your BAB as a dodge bonus to your AC. If you gain a shield bonus to your AC (even through the shield spell or Two-Weapon Defense), you can as a swift action choose 1 enemy and double your base shield bonus against that creature. Do not double your shield's enhancement bonus.

Mobility (Combat):
Requirements: Dex 13, Dodge
Creatures that have taken a full-round action or have cast a spell with a longer casting time than 1 swift action or 1 immediate action in their last turn cannot make attacks of opportunity on you for moving. They can still make attacks of opportunity for other reasons (like spellcasting or firing a ranged weapon in melee). You gain +4 to AC against any attacks of opportunity caused by moving that there still are.

Spring Attack (Combat):
Requirements: Dex 13, Dodge, Mobility
You can use a standard action to move your speed and take an attack action with a melee weapon. At BAB +11, you may also take an attack action with a melee weapon within a move action (or 2 attack actions within a double move), or you may take a single attack action during a run action. The second attack granted by this feat is at a -5 penalty.
Special: Attacks from this feat cannot be combined with a charge, but can be combined with other standard action attacks (like Vital Strike or Cleave), even if you make 2 attacks. This cannot be done on a mount unless the mount also has Spring Attack (but see Ride-by Attack).

Shot on the Run (Combat)
Requirements: Dex 13, Dodge, Mobility, Point-Blank Shot, BAB +4
Within a move action or a double move, you can take an attack action with a ranged weapon anywhere within the movement. At BAB +11, you can take a standard action to attack with a ranged weapon within a double move, or you can take an attack action during a run action.
Special: Attacks granted by this feat are attack actions, allowing you to use feats like Vital Strike on these attacks. You do not gain this effect on ranged touch attacks given by spells (but this still applies to touch attacks granted by guns and other class features for weapons).

Whirlwind attack is an improvement on Great Cleave.


Weapon Focus
Weapon focus grants a +1 bonus to attack rolls with an entire weapon group. This bonus increases by one at +4 BAB and every 4 BAB thereafter, to a maximum of +6 when your BAB reaches +20. While using the power attack, deadly aim, or piranha strike feats, this bonus is applied to damage, rather than attack rolls. While fighting defensively or using the combat expertise feat, this bonus is applied to your AC instead of your attack rolls.
Greater weapon focus is absorbed by this feat. Weapon specialization and GWS will be either changed or removed.
Choose one form of weapon with which you possess proficiency. You gain one of the following options, plus one for every 4 points of Base Attack Bonus you possess (selecting new ones as your base attack bonus increases). Your choices may not be changed afterwards and each of the benefits below each stack with themselves up to twice.

You gain a +1 bonus on attack rolls made with the chosen weapon.
You gain a +2 bonus on damage rolls made with the selected weapon.
You gain a +1 bonus to CMB checks and a +2 bonus to CMD while holding the selected weapon.
Your weapon gains an additional range increment (becoming a thrown weapon with a single range increment of 10 feet if it lacked one).
You gain a +2 bonus on threat confirmation rolls with the chosen weapon and its threat range increases by 1.
You gain a +2 bonus on bluff checks made to feint with the chosen weapon and on sleight of hand checks made to conceal it.

Choose one weapon. Gain +1 to attacks made with that weapon. Gain an additional +1 to attacks made with that weapon for each +5 points of BAB. (+2 at BAB +5 to +9, +3 at BAB of +10 to +14, etc.) This Feat may be take additional times. Each time this feat is taken it must apply to a different weapon. This feat may be chosen as a Fighter's bonus feat.Select a weapon you are Proficient with. For every +4 Base attack bonus you have, you gain +1 on attack rolls and +2 to damage rolls with the chosen weapon. At BAB +8, The critical Range of your chosen Weapon doubles. This improved Critical Range does not stack with Keen or Impact.
Fighters may take this feat as a bonus feat. This feat is treated as Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, Greater Weapon Specialization, Greater Weapon Focus, and Improved Critical for feat and class prerequisites. This Feat may be taken upto 3 times. Each time it must be taken for a different weapon.
When attacking with a weapon all of your attacks beyond the first gain an increase to their base attack bonus equal to the number of extra attacks beyond the first made with that weapon. This may not increase the base attack bonus of any of the affected attacks beyond your normal full BAB. If a character is wielding multiple weapons calculate each separately using only the number of extra attacks that weapon gets.
Weapon Focus: May take 5 on any attack roll

GWF: May Take 10
When you gain this feat, select one weapon. You are proficient with this weapon and gains a +1 bonus on attack and damage rolls with this weapon. This bonus also applies to your CMD when resisting Sunder and Disarm attempts and on saving throws against effects that target your selected weapon while you wield it. When your base attack bonus reaches +4, and every +4 thereafter, these bonuses increase by +1 (up to a maximum of +6 at BAB +20).
Fighter: If a fighter selects this feat as one of his bonus combat feat, the bonus to damage rolls increases by +50%.
Special: You may gain this feat more than once. Its effects do not stack. Each time, you must select a different weapon. This feat replaces Weapon Focus, Greater Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization and Greater Weapon Specialization for meeting prerequisites.


7 fixes up, with plenty of variety and mechanics.
We have 1 vote for G, and 1 vote for A.

gr8artist
2014-07-17, 05:24 PM
Post reserved in case this actually takes off and we need a list or concordance of some kind.

Realms of Chaos
2014-07-17, 05:45 PM
Are these feats for pathfinder or 3.5? Just asking because some concepts like CMD don't directly translate over. :smallconfused:

1pwny
2014-07-17, 05:50 PM
@Realms of Chaos:

When giantitp.com revamped itself, they added a tagging system for threads. Those are those little categories you see in front of all the post names. In front of the post, was the "Pathfinder" tag.

Realms of Chaos
2014-07-17, 06:21 PM
Welp, I guess that just shows me for not looking at... the top of my screen. Yeesh, I can see the word "pathfinder" in two places while typing this. :smallredface:

I've always been a fan of more encompassing feats so let me give this a try:

Weapon Focus [Combat]
You are well-trained in the use of a specific weapon.
Benefits: Choose one form of weapon with which you possess proficiency, such as longsword or club. You gain one of the following options, plus one for every 4 points of Base Attack Bonus you possess (selecting new ones as your base attack bonus increases). Your choices may not be changed afterwards and each of the benefits below each stack with themselves up to twice.

You gain a +1 bonus on attack rolls made with the chosen weapon.
You gain a +2 bonus on damage rolls made with the selected weapon.
You gain a +1 bonus to CMB checks and a +2 bonus to CMD while holding the selected weapon.
You're weapon gains an additional range increment (becoming a thrown weapon with a single range increment of 10 feet if it lacked one).
You gain a +2 bonus on threat confirmation rolls with the chosen weapon and its threat range increases by 1.
You gain a +2 bonus on bluff checks made to feint with the chosen weapon and on sleight of hand checks made to conceal it.
Special: You may select this feat multiple times, selecting a different form of weapon each time.

gr8artist
2014-07-17, 08:44 PM
That's a good fix. What feats would get absorbed by it?

Realms of Chaos
2014-07-17, 10:30 PM
I'm... not sure. :smallconfused:

It definitely subsumes the weapon focus/weapon specialization line but it might also subsume the throw anything and improved critical feats, except that it does so imperfectly, meaning some people may prefer the original feats. Any thoughts? :smallconfused:

Temotei
2014-07-17, 11:12 PM
Looking at RoC's Weapon Focus: I'd like to point out that "form of weapon" is pretty vague. Is that a single weapon as in "halberds," "daggers," and "longbows," or does it apply to "all two-handed weapons" or "all polearms?" A little more definition on that (or rewording) would be good for the feat.

Realms of Chaos
2014-07-17, 11:42 PM
Added another few words to give examples of what I mean. Thanks, Temotei

Yakk
2014-07-18, 02:02 PM
Why restrict to a single weapon?

Suppose we had 5 weapon groups:

Blades: Longsword, Bastard Sword, Two-Handed Sword, Scimitar, Short sword, Daggers
Unbalanced: Axes, Hammers, Flails
Longshaft: Spear, Polearms
Archery: Bows and Crossbows
Peasant: Unarmed, Slings, Sickle (overlap), Handaxe (overlap), Net, Bolas, Shortbow (overlap)

Each category is broad enough that entire sets of weapons are available.

Carl
2014-07-18, 04:29 PM
Hmm since weapon spec seems to be a common feat being affected here. Here's my suggestions for that based off my fighter fix.

Weapon Specialization:
Requirements: BAB 6+
Effect: Any weapon wielded by the Character rolls treble the normal number of Base damage dice, (e.g. a Greatsword would increase from 2D6 to 6D6). This effect cannot be combined with any form of damage multiplier except that granted by critical hits, and that granted by the Spirited Charge Feat.

Improved Weapon Specialization:
Requirements: BAB 11+, Weapon Specialization
Effect: Any weapon wielded by the Character rolls 5 times the normal number of Base damage dice, (e.g. a Greatsword would increase from 2D6 to 10D6). This effect cannot be combined with any form of damage multiplier except that granted by critical hits, and that granted by the Spirited Charge Feat. This replaces the effect of the Weapon Specialization Feat

Greater Weapon Specialization:
Requirements: BAB 16+, Improved Weapon Specialization
Effect: Any weapon wielded by the Character rolls 7 times the normal number of Base damage dice, (e.g. a Greatsword would increase from 2D6 to 14D6). This effect cannot be combined with any form of damage multiplier except that granted by critical hits, and that granted by the Spirited Charge Feat. This replaces the effect of the Improved Weapon Specialization Feat


I'd say this line could also effectively replace power attack, (one of my most loathed feats i admit, so some bias here), as a damage booster.

gr8artist
2014-07-19, 05:55 PM
Yakk, PF has "weapon groups" that are almost exactly as you describe. The fighter gets to pick a group to get better with, and additional groups every 4 (?) levels, and his existing groups improve at each of these steps as well.
I agree that applying weapon focus (or any weapon-specific feat) to the whole group is a good approach. Is your idea otherwise identical to RoC's?

Carl, I'll hold on to those until next week; we can do weapon specialization next. For the purpose of fixing WF, however, we will pretend that the rest of the game remains unchanged. Feats can be removed or absorbed, but we won't worry about changing them yet.

What about a fix that allows you to spend a swift/immediate action to increase the WF bonus? Fighters usually have a swift action laying around each turn anyway.

Carl
2014-07-19, 07:18 PM
Carl, I'll hold on to those until next week; we can do weapon specialization next. For the purpose of fixing WF, however, we will pretend that the rest of the game remains unchanged. Feats can be removed or absorbed, but we won't worry about changing them yet.

No worries.

TBH the issue with weapon Focus is that rolling to hit on a D20 means that unless your under or overcapping, (ie your first iterative attack is going to miss on a natural 1 only or hit on a natural 20 only), enemy AC the effect of each +1 is around a 5% increase in hit rate. The issue isn't so much that this is an awful bonus on it's own, as that the ability to make a whole parcel of attack isn't really a core functioning part of 3.5 or Pathfinder. If combat averaged 4 rounds with an average of a full attack every other round a 20 fighter would be looking at 40 attacks over 4 encounters in a single day. That's 2 extra hits and a decent parcel of bonus damage per day from that.

It's just that in reality getting combat to last that long even in the realm of T5's is incredibly hard and rare. It's too easy to optmise out a build that can allow a party of 4 similar members to one round kill a dragon if they get to attack, never mind anything weaker.

On the flip side a large bonus can make for a hugely overpowered boost because of how it can interact with other stuff, (though without going digging for pathfinder rules i believe their version of Power Attack is less abusable at least in this respect, not that it's the only beneficiary of such things).

redwizard007
2014-07-19, 08:02 PM
I'm looking at this thread and having a hard time following why a feat that was DESIGNED to be a gateway feat is the target of such blatant powergamery. The only possible "fix" I have seen is the one RoC submitted and it replaces what, 4 feats? I lost count when I realized it will absorb improved critical... Not that I like waiting until lvl 8 to take improved crit but level 1 seems like to much of a gimme. You want a plausible fix? Try this one.

Weapon Focus
Choose one weapon. Gain +1 to attacks made with that weapon. Gain an additional +1 to attacks made with that weapon for each +5 points of BAB. (+2 at BAB +5 to +9, +3 at BAB of +10 to +14, etc.) This Feat may be take additional times. Each time this feat is taken it must apply to a different weapon. This feat may be chosen as a Fighter's bonus feat.

It scales, doesn't supplant any Fighter specific feats, doesn't replace any far stronger feats and sucks slightly less. Without making any other rules changes most DMs would at least consider this version. The other options are just asking to be vetoed.

gr8artist
2014-07-20, 02:33 AM
RW, perhaps I did not make myself clear. It is my belief (and, I believe, a viewpoint shared by many others) that playing a mundane or martial character in a party that includes casters can get monotonous and stagnant. You don't have enough viable options, your options are challenging to pull off, and the party wizard surpasses you in every category other than "meat shield". Your ability scores are spread thin, your features don't improve (much) over time, and you end up marginally more useful than the druid's pet.
The wizard gets an infinite collection of spells, which mostly increase in power as he levels, thus giving him twice as much growth as the fighter.
We can nerf the wizard, or we can buff the fighter. We could give the fighter 2 feats per level (a wizard gets two spells, and I'd like to think bending the fundamental laws of the cosmos is a little more challenging than learning to swing a new type of pointy thing) and he'd get close to the wizard in versatility, though he still needs abilities that increase with experience before they're actually compatible.
So, to me, it seems like a lot of the fiddly little feats like weapon focus could stand to gain a good bit of power, without getting into "powergamery".
Now, I like your fix. Its simple and to the point. But I worry that it basically devolves into a free power attack. In PF, power attack costs 1 + 1/4 BAB and grants 2+2/4 BAB in damage. If we adjust your feat to follow PF standards (every 4th level rather than every 5th) then it seems to fall into a little niche with PA and removes PA's tradeoff mechanic from the fighters concerns. (Not entirely true, but enemy AC is calculated with the expectation you're using your whole attack bonus to hit. PA becomes "lose my accuracy overkill for extra damage" rather than "miss more often for extra damage".
That's why I included the clause about the bonus going away if you use PA or fight defensively, so that WF doesn't become a penalty offset, but instead remains an interesting and fluid bonus.
That being said, when I get home and actually have a mouse and rightclicking options, I'll add your fix to the vote.

On a side note, the idea of gateway feats is irritating and insulting to fighters. We give them more feats, but tell them half will be mostly useless filler building up to a high level perk that's nearly equivalent to a second level spell. I want every decision I make as a character to matter at higher levels, especially if that decision is one that restricts my customizability and loot options by 99%.

Carl
2014-07-20, 04:07 AM
RW, perhaps I did not make myself clear. It is my belief (and, I believe, a viewpoint shared by many others) that playing a mundane or martial character in a party that includes casters can get monotonous and stagnant. You don't have enough viable options, your options are challenging to pull off, and the party wizard surpasses you in every category other than "meat shield". Your ability scores are spread thin, your features don't improve (much) over time, and you end up marginally more useful than the druid's pet.
The wizard gets an infinite collection of spells, which mostly increase in power as he levels, thus giving him twice as much growth as the fighter.
We can nerf the wizard, or we can buff the fighter. We could give the fighter 2 feats per level (a wizard gets two spells, and I'd like to think bending the fundamental laws of the cosmos is a little more challenging than learning to swing a new type of pointy thing) and he'd get close to the wizard in versatility, though he still needs abilities that increase with experience before they're actually compatible.
So, to me, it seems like a lot of the fiddly little feats like weapon focus could stand to gain a good bit of power, without getting into "powergamery".

It's possibly RW's thought that casters should be brought down to martial's level. But i think this thread's purpose is just barely this side of the line where trying to do that ain't gonna work, (the more feat's your affecting the more you can do this, though a total spell system overhaul is really needed tbh).

Personally i fall in the six of one, half a dozen of the other category, i think something similar to my proposed WepSpec should apply at each iterative attack gain for example, to give martial more innate scaling, but wizards shouldn't be so powerful.


Now, I like your fix. Its simple and to the point. But I worry that it basically devolves into a free power attack. In PF, power attack costs 1 + 1/4 BAB and grants 2+2/4 BAB in damage. If we adjust your feat to follow PF standards (every 4th level rather than every 5th) then it seems to fall into a little niche with PA and removes PA's tradeoff mechanic from the fighters concerns. (Not entirely true, but enemy AC is calculated with the expectation you're using your whole attack bonus to hit. PA becomes "lose my accuracy overkill for extra damage" rather than "miss more often for extra damage".
That's why I included the clause about the bonus going away if you use PA or fight defensively, so that WF doesn't become a penalty offset, but instead remains an interesting and fluid bonus.
That being said, when I get home and actually have a mouse and rightclicking options, I'll add your fix to the vote.

This is one of the reasons i personally hate PA with a passion. It's clearly supposed to help you deal with weaker opposition, (i.e groups of weaker enemies), more effectively, it's never been intended to deal extra damage to on level opponents who you'd probably miss if you used it, yet for this seeming intended low importance mechanic we have a situation where overcapping your attack sufficiently turns it into a pure damage boost vs near everything and you have to expend a feat to get it.

Anyway PA rant over.


On a side note, the idea of gateway feats is irritating and insulting to fighters. We give them more feats, but tell them half will be mostly useless filler building up to a high level perk that's nearly equivalent to a second level spell. I want every decision I make as a character to matter at higher levels, especially if that decision is one that restricts my customizability and loot options by 99%.

This i agree with 100%, my latest fighter fix lets you pick up chain feats so long as you meat the BAB and preceding feat requirements.

My Attempt:

When attacking with a weapon all of your attacks beyond the first gain an increase to their base attack bonus equal to the number of extra attacks beyond the first made with that weapon. This may not increase the base attack bonus of any of the affected attacks beyond your normal full BAB. If a character is wielding multiple weapons calculate each separately using only the number of extra attacks that weapon gets.


So basically a boost to iterative attacks, one of the weakpoints of martial design.

Realms of Chaos
2014-07-20, 11:28 AM
Well, I am now quite wonderfully confused. :smalltongue:

After two attempts at weapon focus, someone has come in and said that only one (of the two) fixes resembles a fix before submitting a fix that looks far more like the only other fix. Both this third fix and the fix it resembles, however, both have the problem of over-capping attack rolls to make the full release of power attack onto level-appropriate foes more likely, as pointed out by a fourth party. The fourth party then produced a feat that doesn't really fit the same role of weapon focus (which was described as problematic) but instead fits a new role.

All of this and it still isn't quite clear whether we are repairing obviously horrible pathfinder feats to fit in line with the strength of average feats or if we're trying to raise the average power level of feats a bit to something most people would want (which would mean that all of these fixes would be unusable for quite a while, as stated by RW, until a large collection of fixed feats could be assembled to smooth out balance, especially at the snail-crawl of one feat/week).

I'm beginning to comprehend why fighter fixes are so darn tricky. :smalltongue:

gr8artist
2014-07-20, 12:35 PM
I suppose we could tackle a feat chain, rather than a single feat, each week. That might make more sense, now that I think about it.
If you are saying that RW's fix was similar to my own, I'd agree with you, except about the overcapping with power attack. With the fix I proposed, you lose the attack bonus while power attacking, so a 10th level fighter with 20 strength and a mundane weapon would attack as follows: +15 normally, +12 with PA (+6 dam), +15 with PA and RW's WF fix (+6 dam), or +12 with PA and my WF fix (+9 dam).
The idea behind my fix was that you became more skilled with every use of the weapon, not just accuracy. "Fixed" feats don't necessarily need to do only what they did before, though they should at least do what they did before, in addition to any new perks.
I'm thinking more that we aim for buffing feats up to something that matter, rather than just buffing them up to average usefulness. Because even a fighter with 40 average or better-than-average feats is still barely better than cannon fodder when compared to a wizard with a small collection of old tomes.

But yes, until we get a bunch of these feats buffed up, the fighter will still be out-shined at every opportunity.
Even after the fixes, he'll still be a fighter, which means he's still only good at one thing (fighting). That's a fundamental aspect of the character that I don't have a clue how to approach (and I'm not sure I need to).
But, ideally, the fighter should be able to fight better than the wizard, which he currently most likely cannot.

Realms of Chaos
2014-07-20, 01:16 PM
But yes, until we get a bunch of these feats buffed up, the fighter will still be out-shined at every opportunity.

That's actually not the big problem that I see around here. The problem with moving slowly is that while having a fixed feat list may be better than a meh feat list, having a partially fixed feat list is far more dysfunctional than having the plain old meh feat list.

Many of the recommended fixes for weapon focus, for example, do a bit more heavy lifting than average fighter feats in pathfinder. Further, the fixes so far need to specify that greater weapon focus (at least) is being subsumed, having one feat alter other aspects and making the fix feel like a kludge. Between the awkwardness of the feats and their increased power level, simply throwing a fixed "weapon focus" feat into a normal campaign kind of deserves the cry of "blatant powergaming". Even worse, we are bound to make problems even worse as we continue with these feats and inevitably empower some combat forms before others. If we take on the point-blank shot feat line next, for example, we would be fixing ranged combat and making the feats worthwhile before we could really turn to melee matters, adding more dysfunction as we favor them before anyone else.

Mind you, most of these problems won't really exist when we're finally done. When we have a full list of fixed feats, every form of combat will hopefully have equal representation, the level of power will be more uniform, and the exhaustiveness of the fixed feat list will stop players from needing to check what feats may or may not have been absorbed into others. If we really want to push the envelope on what feats can do, however, we have to accept that what we produce will be almost entirely unusable until we are (at least nearly) done, which could take close to a year even working on whole feat chains at a time.

redwizard007
2014-07-20, 03:22 PM
The complexity of the various arguments made thus far are frightening and we are only talking about Weapon Focus at this point. It might be a good time to lock in some parameters before we go any further. Or at least to wrap our heads around the reasoning being used by various involved parties.

Personally, I'm interested more in maintaining relevance of feats as characters progress but not so much in upping the power of the individual feats or having one general feat replace several, at least not without significant restrictions of some kind. Having said that I do understand that I will probably be in the minority here and am perfectly willing to assist with contributions and critiques that might feel a bit heavy to me but will be more in line with the general consensus or I could continue to toss out a low powered alternative that might appeal to a different style of play.

Carl
2014-07-20, 03:56 PM
@RoC: My suggestion was built around the basic principle that as a rule full BAB attacks don't need help hitting stuff over much, so anything noticeably above a +1 or +2 even with a PA limit is a bit wasted. On the other hand the one thing that does always want better accuracy is bonus attacks. SO for me it retains the purpose of the feat (better accuracy), but in such a way it targets what needs the accuracy the most.

A couple of alternatives, (assume no PA as a limit for both):

Weapon Focus: May take 5 on any attack roll

GWF: May Take 10

redwizard007
2014-07-20, 04:39 PM
Weapon Focus: May take 5 on any attack roll

GWF: May Take 10

That is AWESOME!!! I'm adding this to my homebrew as a different pair of feats. Maybe I'll call it Backhand Slap or Underwhelming Foe.

gr8artist
2014-07-21, 04:19 AM
Careful, RW, let's try and make sure we don't get insulting.
Carl, I like that idea, though I don't think anyone would take 5 on a roll of 1-20. Perhaps have WF let you take 10, and gwf take 20 on one attack as a full round action.
And I didn't intend for this to be a comprehensive overhaul. Just a source of inspiration for DMs who, like myself, think feats with pidly bonuses are annoying and insulting.
A lot of our debates are about the intent of this exercise, rather than the particular feat being discussed.
As a rule, though, any feat that gives a progressive bonus consumes follow up feats that do little more than improve that bonus. WF/WS, Imp. Comb. Man., and Vital Strike all come to mind.

redwizard007
2014-07-21, 11:15 AM
gr8, I am dead serious. Picture the teens level barbarian taking 5 on attack rolls against orc hordes or a rival army's champion. It is just... magical. This wouldn't be most players first choice but it has wonderful role playing appeal and that's a large chunk of what the fighter lacks.

Carl, if that came off as patronizing or insulting then I have only my poor writing style to blame. I really like the idea and it is the kind of outside the box brainstorming that leads to great cascades of ideas.

Carl
2014-07-21, 12:02 PM
Carl, if that came off as patronizing or insulting then I have only my poor writing style to blame. I really like the idea and it is the kind of outside the box brainstorming that leads to great cascades of ideas.

Nah, didn't see anything i took offense to :).

toapat
2014-07-21, 12:44 PM
I did this a while ago in my feats thread:


Advanced Arms Training [Fighter][General]
You spent additional time learning to fight with a weapon, and know how to hit harder, more often, and to land devastating blows more often.
Prerequisite: Proficiency with the chosen weapon.
Benefit: Select a weapon you are Proficient with. For every +4 Base attack bonus you have, you gain +1 on attack rolls and +2 to damage rolls with the chosen weapon. At BAB +8, The critical Range of your chosen Weapon doubles. This improved Critical Range does not stack with Keen or Impact.
Special: Fighters may take this feat as a bonus feat. This feat is treated as Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, Greater Weapon Specialization, Greater Weapon Focus, and Improved Critical for feat and class prerequisites. This Feat may be taken upto 3 times. Each time it must be taken for a different weapon.

gr8artist
2014-07-21, 05:07 PM
Hm, I like it. Does it need to be reworded to give a bonus at BAB 1-3?
As it stands, at BAB 20, the total bonus is +5 atk / +10 damage and double crit range.

toapat
2014-07-21, 07:00 PM
Hm, I like it. Does it need to be reworded to give a bonus at BAB 1-3?
As it stands, at BAB 20, the total bonus is +5 atk / +10 damage and double crit range.

its supposed to replace All versions of WF and WS, Improved Critical, and Ranged/Melee weapon Mastery

the fact that it doesnt do anything before BAB +4 is an oversight but im not going to fix that,

Carl
2014-07-22, 01:23 PM
@gr8artist: You missed my fix in 13 off your list :).

Oazard
2014-07-22, 01:55 PM
Hello everyone!

I like to rewrite feats, so I will try to do a cool version of this feat.

Weapon Focus [Combat]
Benefit: When you gain this feat, select one weapon. You are proficient with this weapon and gains a +1 bonus on attack and damage rolls with this weapon. This bonus also applies to your DMD when resisting Sunder and Disarm attempts and on saving throws against effects that target your selected weapon while you wield it. When your base attack bonus reaches +4, and every +4 thereafter, these bonuses increase by +1 (up to a maximum of +6 at BAB +20).
Fighter: If a fighter selects this feat as one of his bonus combat feat, the bonus to damage rolls increases by +50%.
Special: You may gain this feat more than once. Its effects do not stack. Each time, you must select a different weapon. This feat replaces Weapon Focus, Greater Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization and Greater Weapon Specialization for meeting prerequisites.

gr8artist
2014-07-22, 03:47 PM
Oazard, are the other bonuses supposed to scale too? or just the ones to attack and damage?

Carl, I'm not sure what you're talking about. The fixes for weapon specialization?
List what you want your proposed fix to be, and I'll change it. Perhaps the taking 5/taking 10 could be only part of the feat's mechanics.

Oazard
2014-07-22, 03:58 PM
Oazard, are the other bonuses supposed to scale too? or just the ones to attack and damage?


Oops, yeah, the other bonuses are supposed to scale too. :smallredface:

redwizard007
2014-07-22, 04:09 PM
My Attempt:

When attacking with a weapon all of your attacks beyond the first gain an increase to their base attack bonus equal to the number of extra attacks beyond the first made with that weapon. This may not increase the base attack bonus of any of the affected attacks beyond your normal full BAB. If a character is wielding multiple weapons calculate each separately using only the number of extra attacks that weapon gets.


So basically a boost to iterative attacks, one of the weakpoints of martial design.

That was Carl's I believe.

gr8artist
2014-07-22, 04:27 PM
Good call. He said 13 and I was very confused. Found it now in 16.
Added

Carl
2014-07-22, 05:25 PM
Apoligies, checked the number last night and didn't double check i'd remembered right this morning, sorry :smallredface:.

gr8artist
2014-07-24, 03:11 PM
Ok, so we're about to begin voting on our favorite fix. There are several to pick from, just tell us your top vote, and why.
I will then catalog the votes and come up with better text for the ones that are a little iffy or shorthand.

We also need to decide what to work on next.
We could work on the rest of the WF/WS feat line, if anybody feels it wasn't thoroughly covered this week.
Vital strike comes to mind, as does critical focus and its derivatives.
Improved (combat maneuver) could obviously use some love.
Dodge is also a good start.

Oazard
2014-07-24, 05:15 PM
@gr8artist: Oh, my fix in your first post does not seem to be up to date. My post has the final version where the bonus to CMD and to saving throws also increase with BAB. :smallsmile:

So, for my favorite fix is Gr8artist's fix. The increasing bonus to attack rolls is not a surprise, but its interaction with "stance" feat (power attack, combat expertise), I really like it. Simple, but effective. :smallamused:

For the next feat, Dodge is my favorite choice.

redwizard007
2014-07-24, 05:44 PM
I'm going to have to back Oazard this round.

His feat scales nicely, affects combat options like trip and sunder, doesn't feel over powered, and not least importantly it gives a small additional bonus to fighters over other classes when choosing this feat which feels thematically right.

gr8artist
2014-07-28, 01:38 AM
OK, we will continue taking votes for WF, but we're going to start on Dodge this week. Submit fixes for the dodge feat, as well as its derived feat chains, and well start picking our favorite in a week.

Sayt
2014-07-29, 02:51 AM
Jiggety jig, I might give this a shot.

Dodge
Prerequisite: Dex 13.
Benefit: You gain a dodge bonus to your AC equal to half your base attack bonus or half your ranks in acrobatics, whichever is higher, to a maximum of your armour check penalty maximum Dex to AC. A condition that makes you lose your Dex bonus to AC also makes you lose the benefits of this feat.

Mobilty
Prerequisite: Dex 13, Dodge.
If you have a dodge bonus to AC, you gain an insight bonus to tumble attempts to move through a threatened area without provoking attacks of opportunity equal to the dodge bonus.

Edit: For some reason I thought it would be smart to post this on my phone from work. Old language is struck through, replacement language is italicised.

Deepbluediver
2014-07-29, 08:55 AM
Still looking through the Weapon-Focus feats; it's gonna take a little time to parse them all out and make sure I understand exactly how each one works without confusing them so I can make an informed vote.

In the meantime, I'll add a few of mine. Notes about WHY I made certain changes are in the spoilers.


Dodge [General]
Prerequisite: Dex 13

Benefit: At the start of a round, you designate one or more opponents and receive a +2 dodge bonus to Armor Class against attacks from those opponents until the start of the next round. The maximum number of opponents you may designate is equal to your dexterity bonus.
A condition that makes you lose your Dexterity bonus to Armor Class (if any) also makes you lose dodge bonuses. Also, dodge bonuses stack with each other, unlike most other types of bonuses.

Special: A Fighter may select Dodge as one of his Fighter bonus feats.
I opted to try and design something that scale and stack in a way that didn't just improve it against one target because, well, EVERYTHING does that. Plus, stacking higher and higher numbers all on the same value is one of the fastest ways to upset game-balance IMO.
So the feat will still scale somewhat, but it makes you better at fighting large groups of Kobolds instead of a single Minotaur.

Mobility [General]
Prerequisite: Dex 15 or Str 15

Benefit: Your base speed is increased by 10 ft.
In addition, you get a +4 dodge bonus to Armor Class against attacks of opportunity caused when you move out of or within a threatened area. A condition that makes you lose your Dexterity bonus to Armor Class (if any) also makes you lose dodge bonuses.
Dodge bonuses stack with each other, unlike most types of bonuses.

Special: A Fighter may select Mobility as one of his Fighter bonus feats.
Not much changed here, except that I removed the requirement to take Dodge first, because I felt that being speedy and being hard to hit had little to do with each other, and I buffed the feat slightly because I felt that something called "mobility" should actually help you move faster.
Also, I've experimented with altering the perquisites for other feats before, so that they aren't so restrictive. It might seem a little odd if you're not used to it, but overall I think it helps widen the availability of certain feats. The Dex-or-Str requirement here just represents that you need to be in good physical condition.

Spring Attack [General]
Prerequisites: Dex 15, Mobility, BAB +4

Benefit: When using the attack action with a melee or ranged weapon, you can move both before and after the attack, provided that your total distance moved is not greater than your speed. Moving in this way does not provoke an attack of opportunity from the defender you attack, though it might provoke attacks of opportunity from other creatures, if appropriate. You canít use this feat if you are wearing heavy armor.
You must move at least 5 feet both before and after you make your attack in order to utilize the benefits of Spring Attack.

Special: A fighter may select Spring Attack as one of his fighter bonus feats.
I included this one more for completeness than anything else. The only real change is that you can now use it with ranged weapons, basically folding Shot on the Run into Spring Attack. I don't like superfluous feats, and since the whole point of ranged combat is to be out of the are your enemies threaten in the first place, I didn't see a lot of value in it.

Carl
2014-07-29, 09:37 AM
Hmmm

Dodge:
Requirements: Base Reflex save modifier of +4

You may substitute your total Reflex Save Modifier, (i.e. base save + all bonus's), plus 10 for your total AC, (i.e. including all modifiers). You also gain a +2 Circumstance modifier to all Reflex Saves, (this does apply to it's use via this feat).

Lightning Reflex's:
Requirements: Base Reflex save modifier of +7, Dodge Feat

You may take 10 on any Reflex save even if under pressure, hurried e.t.c. In addition for the purposes of using the dodge feat your circumstance modifier to Reflex Saves improves to +5

Forge On:
Requirements: Base Fortitude save modifier of +4

You may substitute your total Fortitude Save Modifier, (i.e. base save + all bonus's), plus 10 for your total AC, (i.e. including all modifiers). You also gain a +2 Circumstance modifier to all Fortitude Saves, (this does apply to it's use via this feat).

Great Fortitude:
Requirements: Base Fortitude save modifier of +7, Forge On Feat

You may take 10 on any Fortitude save even if under pressure, hurried e.t.c. In addition for the purposes of using the forge on feat your circumstance modifier to Fortitude Saves improves to +5

Mind Over Matter:
Requirements: Base Will save modifier of +4

You may substitute your total Will Save Modifier, (i.e. base save + all bonus's), plus 10 for your total AC, (i.e. including all modifiers). You also gain a +2 Circumstance modifier to all Will Saves, (this does apply to it's use via this feat).

Iron Will:
Requirements: Base Will save modifier of +7, Mind Over Matter Feat

You may take 10 on any Will save even if under pressure, hurried e.t.c. In addition for the purposes of using the mind over matter feat your circumstance modifier to Will Saves improves to +5

Mobility:
Requirements: Dex 20

So long as you do not move at a speed greater than your base movement speed for the movement type being used you do not provoke Attacks of Opportunity. You may take this feat a second time, if you do, you may move at any speed without provoking attacks of opportunity.

Power Through:
Requirements: BAB +4

For every attack, (ranged or melee), that hit's you may make another attack at half your full BAB. This attack must be made with the same weapon and is subject to all the normal rules that would apply, (so if you used the Manyshot feat the Manyshot attack roll penalty would apply). Bonus attacks granted by this feat do not grant further bonus attacks.

Replaces the Cleave Feat

Improved Power Through:
Requirements: BAB +8, Power Through Feat

Bonus attacks due to the Power Through Feat are now made at full BAB instead of half full BAB.

Replaces the Grat Cleave feat

Spring Attack:
Requirements: BAB +12, Improved Power Through Feat

Any time you are allowed an attack, (melee or ranged), except those granted by Cleave and Great Cleave feats, you may move upto your base movement speed. This movement may occur before or after the attack, or may be split between the two. This feat cannot allow you to exceed your base movement speed or the normal limit on your movement for the type of attack you are making, whichever is higher. If you make multipule attacks then each grants you movement though the total must still adhere to the limits above. This feat functions whilst mounted so long as you and your mount act at the same initiative step. If you and your mount do not act at the same initiative step then your mount must also posses this feat for you to use it.

Replaces Spring Attack, Shot on the Run, and Ride By Attack

redwizard007
2014-07-29, 02:34 PM
Dodge (Combat)
Your training and reflexes allow you to react swiftly to avoid an opponents attacks.
Prerequisite: Dex 13
Benefit: Add your base reflex save to your armor class as a dodge bonus subject to the following limitations. If you wear armor or use a shield subtract your armor check penalty from this bonus. This bonus is always at least +1 even if you have no reflex save or your armor check penalty would reduce the bonus below +1. This bonus may never exceed your class level +3. Any circumstance which would cause you to lose your dexterity modifier to AC also negates any dodge bonus. Dodge bonuses stack together unlike other types of bonuses.
Special: A fighter may choose this feat as one of his bonus feats.

Yes, this does mean lower bonus for a fighter but it makes it very appealing for rogues, rangers, monks, bards etc. and it scales with your reflex save and has a cap to prevent some of the more obvious abuses.


Mobility (Combat)
You can easily move through a dangerous melee.
Prerequisite: Dex 13, Dodge
Benefit: Any time you would be subject to an attack of opportunity provoked by movement you may immediately make a Jump or Tumble check with a bonus equal to your bonus from the Dodge feat vs a DC of the attackers attack roll. If you succeed the attack misses and you may make a free 5' step before continuing your movement normally. Any condition that causes you to lose your dex bonus to AC (if any) also causes you to lose access to this feat.
Special: A fighter may choose this feat as one of his bonus feats.

increase jump/tumble to scale. Tumble included for dex types, jump for ragers. Classic tanks need not apply. slight bump to movement.


Spring Attack (Combat)
Your can deftly move up to a foe, strike and withdraw before he can react, your ire increasing with every minor attack you beat off on the way to your target.
Prerequisite: Dex 13, Dodge, Mobility, BAB +6
Benefit: As a full round action, you can move, make a single attack and move again. This movement never draws an attack of opportunity from your target but does provoke attacks from other enemies as normal. For every opponent who is granted an attack of opportunity against you, because of your movement before your attack, you deal an additional +2 damage typed as your attack would normally deal. This damage is multiplied if you critically hit. You must move at least 10' before making your attack and cannot attack an opponent who is adjacent to you at the start of your turn. The total distance that you move cannot be greater than your speed. At +12 and +18 BAB you may make an additional attack, all be it with a cumulative -5 penalty to each additional attack. The bonus damage from provoked attacks of opportunity applies to these additional attacks as well.
Normal: You cannot move before and after an attack.
Special: A fighter may choose this feat as one of his bonus feats.

At this point I feel like you are already pretty hard to hit. Besides, this feat is more about attacking. We get a bonus to dmg for blowing by the minions and additional attacks at higher levels. It doesn't necessarily increase smart play but it should be fun.

gr8artist
2014-07-29, 09:15 PM
Ok, added all current fixes.
Keep in mind that some mechanics changed from 3.5 to PF, so things like tumble checks might need to be rephrased. Also, my intention is that we each list a simple unformatted suggestion. Then, once the group has chosen a favorite, we can properly format it as needed. It's a bit of a nuisance to try and transfer the intense formatting you guys are using to the first post.

Kamai
2014-07-30, 02:59 AM
Note: Everything here assumes PF.

Dodge (Combat):
Requirements: Dex 13
You can add 1 + 1/4 your BAB as a dodge bonus to your AC. If you gain a shield bonus to your AC (even through the shield spell or Two-Weapon Defense), you can as a swift action choose 1 enemy and double your base shield bonus against that creature. Do not double your shield's enhancement bonus.

Mobility (Combat):
Requirements: Dex 13, Dodge
Creatures that have taken a full-round action or have cast a spell with a longer casting time than 1 swift action or 1 immediate action in their last turn cannot make attacks of opportunity on you for moving. They can still make attacks of opportunity for other reasons (like spellcasting or firing a ranged weapon in melee). You gain +4 to AC against any attacks of opportunity caused by moving that there still are.

Spring Attack (Combat):
Requirements: Dex 13, Dodge, Mobility
You can use a standard action to move your speed and take an attack action with a melee weapon. At BAB +11, you may also take an attack action with a melee weapon within a move action (or 2 attack actions within a double move), or you may take a single attack action during a run action. The second attack granted by this feat is at a -5 penalty.
Special: Attacks from this feat cannot be combined with a charge, but can be combined with other standard action attacks (like Vital Strike or Cleave), even if you make 2 attacks. This cannot be done on a mount unless the mount also has Spring Attack (but see Ride-by Attack).

Shot on the Run (Combat)
Requirements: Dex 13, Dodge, Mobility, Point-Blank Shot, BAB +4
Within a move action or a double move, you can take an attack action with a ranged weapon anywhere within the movement. At BAB +11, you can take a standard action to attack with a ranged weapon within a double move, or you can take an attack action during a run action.
Special: Attacks granted by this feat are attack actions, allowing you to use feats like Vital Strike on these attacks. You do not gain this effect on ranged touch attacks given by spells (but this still applies to touch attacks granted by guns and other class features for weapons).

Whirlwind attack is an improvement on Great Cleave.


I wanted to make Dodge a little more general, but keep it more useful in the hands of a fighter or rogue than a wizard. The shield bonus is a bit out there, but unless Combat Expertise gets messed with, shield users want a little more to play with (and it does also help TWF some).
From there, the goal is to get really hit and run, thus people with less time to pay attention are also getting less of a chance to smack you around, and then you bob and weave, smacking things (and hopefully getting to use better Vital Strike feats on those attacks). Being able to fight in a full run doesn't come up much, but should serve as a neat little bonus when it does come up.
I feel like ranged wants to be able to use some of it's feats, while melee just wants more attacks, thus why the feats are separate as is.

gr8artist
2014-08-01, 09:57 AM
Huh, sorry. It wasn't showing me the new post indicator.
Running out of time for votes and suggestions, guys.

gr8artist
2014-08-05, 12:27 AM
Ok, soon as we have a suggestion for the next feat to start "fixing" I'll end the voting for WF and start the voting for Dodge.