Zerg PC [3.5]

[Vorandril]

How would one go about making a character who has a large number(Or maybe just 4 or 5?) of persistent combat minion pets that could easily be flavored to be ever-adapting/mutating monstrosities against nature?

I considered the idea of an Aberration shifting druid with Leadership and applying the template from Lords of Madness to make them all Psuedonatural creatures. But for one, followers are generally non-combative. And not worth bringing to a brawl with a BBEG anyway.

Summoning minions is a good way to add bodies to a map, but I am more interested in the persistent aspect of minions.

Suggestions?

[Bloodgruve]

How bout undead? Create persistant skeles or zombies with Warlock's The Dead Walk invocation, just gotta pay 25g per HD of the persisted undead.

Artificer can create a horde of constructs..

Alienist gives their Familiar the Pseudonatural template and summons Pseudonatural creatures. Only one persistant but you get aliens this way.

GL
Blood~

[WhamBamSam]

A Binder binding Zercyll (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/frcc/20070718) can use Summon Monster for pseudonatural creatures every 5 rounds all day. They do have a duration, but you never run out of uses, so they might as well be. You don't do anything particularly Zerg-esque until level 10, but after that you'll pretty much have exactly what you want. Enter Knight of the Sacred Seal (Zercyll) either at level 11 (or 12 if you really want the Binder 11 bonus feat right now). You can also command some undead through Tenebrous' rebukes if you want a few extra, longer lasting minions.

[Endarire]

What about a caster (like a Druid, Wizard, or Cleric) with the Summon Elemental reserve feat from Complete Mage? An Earth Elemental can burrow.

[Aharon]

A Binder binding Zercyll (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/frcc/20070718) can use Summon Monster for pseudonatural creatures every 5 rounds all day. They do have a duration, but you never run out of uses, so they might as well be. You don't do anything particularly Zerg-esque until level 10, but after that you'll pretty much have exactly what you want. Enter Knight of the Sacred Seal (Zercyll) either at level 11 (or 12 if you really want the Binder 11 bonus feat right now). You can also command some undead through Tenebrous' rebukes if you want a few extra, longer lasting minions.

Actually, the ability does not list a duration - most sane DMs just houserule it to be the same as summon monster. In a very high-op game, permanent duration might be non-broken.

[Vorandril]

What about a caster (like a Druid, Wizard, or Cleric) with the Summon Elemental reserve feat from Complete Mage? An Earth Elemental can burrow.

That's kinda a slick feat, but not quite what I was thinking. I'll have to keep that in mind as a secondary though.


A Binder binding Zercyll (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/frcc/20070718) can use Summon Monster for pseudonatural creatures every 5 rounds all day. They do have a duration, but you never run out of uses, so they might as well be. You don't do anything particularly Zerg-esque until level 10, but after that you'll pretty much have exactly what you want. Enter Knight of the Sacred Seal (Zercyll) either at level 11 (or 12 if you really want the Binder 11 bonus feat right now). You can also command some undead through Tenebrous' rebukes if you want a few extra, longer lasting minions.

That's a cool idea. Easy enough to reflavor as the summons simply mutating every thirty seconds for why they change into different creatures. I'll have to look up the Knight of the Seal when I get home to look at the perks thereof.


How bout undead? Create persistant skeles or zombies with Warlock's The Dead Walk invocation, just gotta pay 25g per HD of the persisted undead.

I like the reusability here. And I'm a fan of warlocks as a support/pewpew character as it is. The only curiosity I have is, How easily can undead be "modified" by a warlock? If it's too difficult it might be easier to play a spell happy cleric and burn a feat to pick up Fel Animate.


Alienist gives their Familiar the Pseudonatural template and summons Pseudonatural creatures. Only one persistant but you get aliens this way.

Close, but I don't think quite Cigar worthy unless there's some way to make summons closer to permanent.


Artificer can create a horde of constructs..

This one sounds quite intriguing. I always hear about how awesome artificers are as a "equip the party" character but didn't know they could go headlong into golemancy. This will also have to warrant more reading. Where are artificers even at in the books?

[Vorandril]

Actually, the ability does not list a duration - most sane DMs just houserule it to be the same as summon monster. In a very high-op game, permanent duration might be non-broken.

O_O

Be still, my quivering heart.
What about limiting it like how many HD of undead a caster can control. Would that seem appropriate or terribly overpowered?

[WhamBamSam]

Actually, the ability does not list a duration - most sane DMs just houserule it to be the same as summon monster. In a very high-op game, permanent duration might be non-broken.I stand corrected. I thought it said something about functioning "as summon monster" but it does not.


That's a cool idea. Easy enough to reflavor as the summons simply mutating every thirty seconds for why they change into different creatures. I'll have to look up the Knight of the Seal when I get home to look at the perks thereof.Basically, you take Weapon Focus as a feat tax, are restricted to binding one vestige every day (but as long as that vestige is Zercyll, who cares?), and get full Binding progression on a better chassis, with some solid class features over the course of 5 levels. The capstone involves turning you into a native outsider, which is more flavorful than actually useful unless you're using Karsus or UMD through Naberius or something to get access to Alter Self, but still nice for your concept.


O_O

Be still, my quivering heart.
What about limiting it like how many HD of undead a caster can control. Would that seem appropriate or terribly overpowered?Ask your DM if he has any particular houserules he'd like to implement to reign in Zercyll. She brings Binders up from T3 to T2 by herself, so it's generally understood that she's a little broken. In fairness though, summon monster options (particularly restricted to the ones that are valid targets for the pseudonatural template) are not necessarily as powerful or versatile as some of the things that full casters can call in, even in massive numbers. Like I said, a Binder with Zercyll is T2. If you're hanging around with relatively optimized Clerics, Wizards, and Psions, your army of aliens isn't a problem for anyone except maybe the DM (and no more so than anyone else's shenanigans). If you're hanging around with a Fighter or Barbarian, then you might have to tone it down.

[Vorandril]

The party I'm considering dropping this character into has a halfling rogue and dwarven cleric who aren't particularly optimized.
A Human (flavored as being feyish) warlock who is using a couple houserule things because "Warlocks aren't very strong" is the feeling the DM and player have...
A Githyanki Soul Knife
And my current character is a wyrmling red dragon. With no stat adjustments. I pretty much have the armor, breath, flight, and attacks. That's all a +2ECL by the DM's reckoning and the rest of my levels are in Duskblade.

So the aliens wouldn't be super OP as long as we had a way to regulate how quickly I could resupply them.


Which book is Zercyll in anyway? I just checked Tome of Magic and had a "herp derp" moment by looking to see if I was missing a page (and concerned who might have hurt my poor book and not told me).

[Vaz]

It is web enhancement. I'm on tablet now so it is hard to link,,but a quick google should bring it up as the top option.

[The Viscount]

Zceryll is found here. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/frcc/20070718) It always irked me that they didn't give her a crunch influence, but that's probably just me.

Zceryll's probably the best way to do this, but in the interest of completeness I'll mention the beast heart adept (found here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20070209a&page=4)and in dungeonscape), which several monsters as animal companions, though they will likely be too weak to be much help in an out and out brawl, but you can replace them rather quickly.

I'll also mention the elemental archon from Faiths and Pantheons which has three mephits serving it at all times, and they're pretty fun. No, you can't get a mirror mephit, but the other ones are still nice.

[Aharon]

In fairness though, summon monster options (particularly restricted to the ones that are valid targets for the pseudonatural template) are not necessarily as powerful or versatile as some of the things that full casters can call in, even in massive numbers.

The wording of the ability suggests that you aren't limited to normally valid targets:


Summon Alien: You can summon any creature from the summon monster list that a sorcerer of your level could summon. Any creature you summon with this ability gains the pseudonatural template. Thus, at 10th level you could summon any creature from the summon monster I-V list. When you reach 14th level, you can summon any creature from the summon monster I-VII list. You can only summon creatures that can be affected by the pseudonatural template. Once you have used this ability, you cannot do so again for 5 rounds.

It specifically says you can summon any creature from the list, and it then gains the template. Normally, the template is restricted, but specific beats general. But I don't think that there are any things on the list that can't be pseudonatural anyway - the only requirement is corporeality. You might have it mixed up with Alienists - they add pseudonatural instead of celestial/fiendish, but can't summon anything else in return.

@OP:
Your Hit Dice control might work balance-wise, but as others have said, ultimately it's up to your DM.

[Thiyr]

I'll be honest, you said "a character who has a large number(Or maybe just 4 or 5?) of persistent combat minion pets that could easily be flavored to be ever-adapting/mutating monstrosities against nature" and my first thought was the Xenoalchemist (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?205119-Must-Affix-Everything-to-Everything!-(Grafts-That-Don-t-Make-Me-Cry-Myself-To-Sleep)). Homebrew, yes, but I still really want to do that. Ranks in Handle Animal, buy/train yourself a pack of dogs or bears or housecats or whatever, and then...well, chop up strange and alien monsters and start stapling the pieces onto your animals. And yourself. And anyone who is crazy/desperate enough to ask you for medical care.

Just so long as you name yourself Abathur.

[Vorandril]

I feel like an idiot... I forgot one of the major hurdles I have to get over to try and make this work.

The airship (only one in the world so far as our characters are aware) is powered by magic, and subsequently acts as an anti-magic zone because it eats active magic effects. Not enough to disenchant a magic item. But they can't operate while the airship is moving.

So how many of these plans would still work with that taken into account?

Also ECL = 5 at the moment.

[Fredaintdead]

I feel like an idiot... I forgot one of the major hurdles I have to get over to try and make this work.

The airship (only one in the world so far as our characters are aware) is powered by magic, and subsequently acts as an anti-magic zone because it eats active magic effects. Not enough to disenchant a magic item. But they can't operate while the airship is moving.

So how many of these plans would still work with that taken into account?

Also ECL = 5 at the moment.

If homebrew is allowed, GitP's very own Lix Lorn made the Swarmlord (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?253053-The-Swarm-Arrives-3-5-Base-Class-Zerg-Tyranids) a few years back, and it's pretty much designed to do Zerg/Tyranid-type stuff with minions.

[Gavinfoxx]

This one sounds quite intriguing. I always hear about how awesome artificers are as a "equip the party" character but didn't know they could go headlong into golemancy. This will also have to warrant more reading. Where are artificers even at in the books?

http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=177

http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=2829

http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1000

http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=11948

[Vorandril]

If homebrew is allowed, GitP's very own Lix Lorn made the Swarmlord (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?253053-The-Swarm-Arrives-3-5-Base-Class-Zerg-Tyranids) a few years back, and it's pretty much designed to do Zerg/Tyranid-type stuff with minions.

I'll give it the college try and ask, but reading through it I highly doubt that the DM would allow it. He's not against home-brewing, but I can see the Swarmlord coming off as incredibly powerful and mostly just a pain to manage in combat. But we shall see.

[Thiyr]

Thankfully, the Xenoalchemist should still work. Su abilities granted would get shut down, but any of the Ex ones are still good, and there's a good few of those around.

[No brains]

I'm adding another voice to the undead, possibly dread necromancer idea. Raising your conquered foes as undead is thematically similar to what the Zerg do infecting and assimilating things. Better yet, the undead still work a fair meatshields and persist in the anti-magic field of the ship (except for incorporeal undead; watch out making those). Negative energy from the dread necromancer's class features could be re-fluffed as some infectious agent that your character constantly oozes.

[toapat]

I'll give it the college try and ask, but reading through it I highly doubt that the DM would allow it. He's not against home-brewing, but I can see the Swarmlord coming off as incredibly powerful and mostly just a pain to manage in combat. But we shall see.

Lix said cut out the manifesting from the class.

[Slipperychicken]

You could just play as Bubs the Commoner and raise/train a bunch of scary monsters to be your minions.

[Vorandril]

So I've what we came up with;
Create minions via necromancy to create Necropolitans. Which makes them controllable, gives some benefits, and doesn't leave the minions unintelligent.

Apply "adaptations" by applying Undead grafts.

Further adaptations can be done by applying inherited templates. Kinda goes against the intention of "inherited" but whatever. The template just has to make sense in one form or another. So Insectile creature could make sense, but trying to apply half fiend would take more work.

At taking Undead Leadership the mindless followers would become like the drones of a hive.

Which got me curious. Where is this supposed to be from?
http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Ambitious_Leader_%283.5e_Feat%29

Because that could quite easily help with adding to the feeling of the character being the hub of a horde. Further how badly would Undead Leadership affect taking Leadership itself? Ways to blend the two so they could more easily fit with the concept?

(Also, thank you all so much for the help. I know I'm a constant barrage of questions that keeps going in circles. I really appreciate the help and patience)

[Gavinfoxx]

Which got me curious. Where is this supposed to be from?
http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Ambitious_Leader_%283.5e_Feat%29


A third party, non wotc book. In other words, some company's homebrew -- which might be better or worse than some person's homebrew.

Which is why friends don't let friends use dandwiki.

If you want to make a big army using actual 3.5e rules, read this for a handbook and useful feats:

http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=8817

[Vorandril]

Ok, so from that link we get this.


Right then, as far as I can find there are two Leadership feats. The normal Leadership as discussed in DMG page 106 and Undead Leadership as discussed in Libris Mortis page 31. UL provides a +2 to your leadership score when recruiting undead while providing a -4 for living recruits in addition to the normal benefits of Leadership.

Does that -4 to attracting the living also apply to the Leadership feat or only the ones gained from Undead Leadership? For fluff I can understand it applying to both. Mechanically, I'm not so sure because it's like taking the penalty twice for only gaining it once.

As it is my DM pointed me to the Death Master class in the Dragon Compendium. I am much excited. *squees as I run off to make a pair of awakened Chimeric wights or zombies, and researching some BS spell that will apply Multiheaded onto them for the sake of lulz*

Arcane spell research = fun with templates on things that aren't supposed to have them.