Prince as Rulers

[t209]

So this is a response to Nostlagic Critic's "Queen it Up" comment on princess never calling herself as queen in Adventures of Sonic the Hedgehog.
Setting aside the plot and the skepticism of the show's kingdom, I am questioning on which country (or rather former) use Prince as a title for Rulers. All I can think is
- Grand Prince of Moscow
- Imperial Princes in Holy Roman Empire
And Andorra doesn't count since it seem a bit like contract between French government and Roman Catholic Church.
So care to share any? I am happy if someone put fictional examples (like Princess Celestia from My Little Pony).

[afroakuma]

Liechtenstein and Monaco. The realm of a prince is a principality.

[Asta Kask]

Augustus and his family called themselves Princeps (latin for first, as in first citizen) and never really ruled under the name emperor (although they were called imperator). So, Augustus, Tiberius, Caius Caesar (Caligula), Claudius, and Nero.

[Kaeso]

So this is a response to Nostlagic Critic's "Queen it Up" comment on princess never calling herself as queen in Adventures of Sonic the Hedgehog.
Setting aside the plot and the skepticism of the show's kingdom, I am questioning on which country (or rather former) use Prince as a title for Rulers. All I can think is
- Grand Prince of Moscow
- Imperial Princes in Holy Roman Empire
And Andorra doesn't count since it seem a bit like contract between French government and Roman Catholic Church.
So care to share any? I am happy if someone put fictional examples (like Princess Celestia from My Little Pony).

I think pre-unification Italy had various princes (as well as dukes, counts, doges etc.) that ruled independent bits of the peninsula. That explains why Machiavelli's masterwork was called "the Prince". Only Naples actually had a king if I'm not mistaken.

[Aedilred]

Principalities used to be quite popular, moreso on the fringes of Europe than the heartlands (France, Germany and Italy tended to prefer the title of Duke or Count), but there were still a few knocking around. It should be noted that "Prince" was also used as a generic name for sovereign rulers of any stature (as well as for their heirs; it's a versatile word), hence the title of The Prince.

Obviously, most principalities have now been abolished, but these were/are some of the more significant:

Catalonia (held as a title of the King of Aragon and later the King of Spain. I think it might still be in the titles of the King of Spain)
Wales (extant in name, but with no temporal power attached)
Asturias (extant in name, but with no temporal power attached)
Antioch (Crusader state)
Orange (abolished in practice in the 17th century, but held as a title until the establishment of the Kingdom of the Netherlands)
Monaco (extant)
Liechtenstein (extant)
Andorra (extant, although, as you say, weird)
Several Russian cities: Kiev, Moscow, Novgorod and Vladimir most notably
Hungary (or, rather, "the Hungarians) before formation into a kingdom
Achaea (reconquered by the Byzantine Empire)
Serbia
Piedmont (later unified into the Kingdom of Sardinia and ultimately Italy)
Wallachia, Moldavia and Transylvania, the three constituent parts of modern Romania (although some/all(?) of these used the native title of Voivode, it corresponded to Prince and was sometimes styled as such)

Plus many more.

[Eldan]

Liechtenstein and Monaco. The realm of a prince is a principality.

Except in German it's not principality, it's "Fürstentum" and the ruler is a "Fürst". Which can be translated as "Prince", but is not the same word as the German "Prinz".

Edit: okay, so looking into it:

"Fürst" is a general title for a high noble from the HRE. Can include counts and dukes. It's derrivation is similar to "First" in English, and it means a similar thing to "Princeps" in Latin, so it is more or less equivalent of "Prince" and a lot of Princes, as in "sovereign rulers" are called "Fürst" in German. It is not, however, the same as "Prinz", which is the son of a King.

Sorry for the nitpickery.

[Asta Kask]

Etymology - "king" comes from the proto-German "kuningaz", probably meaning "leader" or "chosen one". Etymology is uncertain though. The Finns, Balts and Slavic languages have loaned this word from proto-Germanic.
"Prince" comes from "princeps", meaning "first" as discussed above.
"Czar" is a derived from Caesar.
"Queen" comes from a proto-Indo-European root meaning "woman", as in Swedish "kvinna".

I'm sure you all feel better for knowing this.

[Kalmageddon]

I think pre-unification Italy had various princes (as well as dukes, counts, doges etc.) that ruled independent bits of the peninsula. That explains why Machiavelli's masterwork was called "the Prince". Only Naples actually had a king if I'm not mistaken.

Exactly, prince is just a generic name for a ruler.
A princess could potentially cover the samel role without having to be queen, if her country or state isn't a kingdom.

[Gwynfrid]

I'm impressed with the level of history and language expertise on this thread.

That said: Long live the Republic :smalltongue:

This is not a political statement. Well, OK, it is. But the intention is poking fun, not starting a forbidden discussion. Thanks for not biting.

[Aedilred]

Etymology - "king" comes from the proto-German "kuningaz", probably meaning "leader" or "chosen one". Etymology is uncertain though. The Finns, Balts and Slavic languages have loaned this word from proto-Germanic.
"Prince" comes from "princeps", meaning "first" as discussed above.
"Czar" is a derived from Caesar.
"Queen" comes from a proto-Indo-European root meaning "woman", as in Swedish "kvinna".

I'm sure you all feel better for knowing this.
Oh, things get complicated when you start translating away from English, aye.

"King" is relatively cognate across all Germanic languages, but kuninggaz is non-Indo-European (possibly from native mesolithic), the Indo-European version being some variant on rex. In French, roy, roi, in Castilian, rey, and so on.

The Romans had a particular hatred for the title of rex after the expulsion of Tarquin, the last King of Rome, in the 6th century BC. This is why after Rome became a monarchical system they went to such lengths to avoid calling their monarchs rex (or rather the monarchs themselves did), with the initial Emperors (the "Principate") preferring to accumulate republican titles (princeps, "first citizen" and imperator, a non-exclusive military title, as well as pontifex maximus head of the Roman religion). After the deification of Caesar and Augustus these were assumed by later Emperors too, and both Caesar and Augustus were used as de facto titles. "Caesar" became the root word for "emperor" in Germany ("Kaiser") and Russia ("Tsar/Czar") while in Latin Europe "imperator" was used ("Emperor").

Perhaps ironically, that considered, "King of the Romans" was one of the longest-lasting monarchical titles in Europe during the Middle Ages and (early) modern era, created as part of the Holy Roman Empire and used to designate the elected heir to the Imperial throne. However despite its name it exercised no authority over Rome itself, and the title was pretty much meant to signify the (bogus, but politically significant) historic continuity from the western Roman Empire to the HRE.

Things got even more complicated in the Greek-speaking east, where the Emperors used the Greek title of basileus, which is effectively the Greek title for King (as well as autokrator and a few others). (Basileus itself goes back to Bronze Age Mycenae, where it was a junior official in the palace hierarchy, but none of the higher ranks survived until the Classical period and by that point basileus was the standard word for king).

So it's worth bearing in mind that the English title will be an approximation of the native one, rather than necessarily reflecting the subtleties of the native title itself. We talk about kings in Akkad, Greece, Egypt, etc. but none of them would be called "king" or even "rex". In Germany, for instance, both Furst and Prinz are translated as "Prince"; they're distinct in German, but because English uses the same word for both concepts, that's what we get. It's useful to try to distinguish between "royal" princes (otherwise untitled members of a royal family) and sovereign princes, as German does. It does not help when a royal prince is also given a nominally sovereign title... (Prince of Wales, Prince of Asturias). Different families have different standards for what counts as a royal prince, so watch out for that.

I've remembered another principality, which was in Durham. Durham retained palatine status as church land until the 19th century, and the Bishop of Durham was also a temporal prince (Prince-Bishop of Durham). I think this was the only true principality ever created under the English crown (Wales was never actually governed by an English Prince of Wales; it was titular only).

[Flickerdart]

Moscow was never ruled by a Grand Prince except in English translations (and even then, Grand Duke is used just as often). The proper term is knyaz', derived from proto-Germanic kuningaz which meant King.

[Eldan]

Oh, things get complicated when you start translating away from English, aye.

"King" is relatively cognate across all Germanic languages, but kuninggaz is non-Indo-European (possibly from native mesolithic), the Indo-European version being some variant on rex. In French, roy, roi, in Castilian, rey, and so on.

Don't forget Gaulish "rix". As in Vercingetorix, Dumnorix, Asterix, Orgetorix, Ambiorix,

[Coidzor]

Prince? I dunno. It seems like using him as a unit of measurement for anything that's not music-related would be kind of inappropriate.

Also, he's just not as useful as the metric system. Or even the Imperial one, for that matter. :smallconfused:


More on topic: wasn't The Principality of Zeon ruled by a Duke?

[Domino Quartz]

"King" is relatively cognate across all Germanic languages, but kuninggaz is non-Indo-European (possibly from native mesolithic) <snip>


:smallconfused: Would you mind saying how you know this? Every source I've looked at says it's probably related to the word kin.

[Aedilred]

:smallconfused: Would you mind saying how you know this? Every source I've looked at says it's probably related to the word kin.

Here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germanic_substrate_hypothesis) you (http://www.eupedia.com/linguistics/non-indo-european_germanic_words.shtml) go. It might well be related to "kin" but in that case they're probably both non-IE.

[Bulldog Psion]

Don't forget Gaulish "rix". As in Vercingetorix, Dumnorix, Asterix, Orgetorix, Ambiorix,

:smallbiggrin:

[Domino Quartz]

Here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germanic_substrate_hypothesis) you (http://www.eupedia.com/linguistics/non-indo-european_germanic_words.shtml) go. It might well be related to "kin" but in that case they're probably both non-IE.

You know, when I see things like "This section's factual accuracy is disputed." and a section on the page titled "Controversy", it makes me kind of doubt the veracity of your sources. Also, the sources that say that "king" (and therefore "kuninggaz") is related to "kin" also say that "kin" is ultimately related to the Latin word "genus".

[Bulldog Psion]

You know, when I see things like "This section's factual accuracy is disputed." and a section on the page titled "Controversy", it makes me kind of doubt the veracity of your sources. Also, the sources that say that "king" (and therefore "kuninggaz") is related to "kin" also say that "kin" is ultimately related to the Latin word "genus".

Yes, that Wikipedia page definitely has some problems. I speak a lot of Russian (married to a native speaker), and a lot of the Russian stuff on there is ... yeah.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germanic_substrate_hypothesis

"Korol" is indeed "king," and means, roughly, "crowned."

"Knyaz" is prince. I've never seen it used to mean "king."

"Sluga" is NOT "knight" -- it means "servant." Russian for "knight" is "ritsyer," borrowed from German "ritter."

"Vesh" is indeed "thing," but never meant "council" like the cited "thing" in Icelandic. "Vesh" means "generic object" and nothing more.

With that many goofs in one language, I'm a bit dubious about the other ones.

[Hyena]

- Grand Prince of Moscow
Actually a lousy translation. They were never called "princes" - neither grand nor ordinary. They are called "knyazs" instead, and were their own thing.

[Closet_Skeleton]

Don't forget Gaulish "rix". As in Vercingetorix, Dumnorix, Asterix, Orgetorix, Ambiorix,

I'm never sure if that was just how the Romans rendered their names or if the Gaulish word for King was actually that similar to the Roman one.



"Knyaz" is prince. I've never seen it used to mean "king."

"Sluga" is NOT "knight" -- it means "servant." Russian for "knight" is "ritsyer," borrowed from German "ritter."

Knyaz is etymologically related to King, doesn't mean it has the same meaning. But the system of Knyaz and Veliky Knyaz in Russia wasn't too different to the system of Kings and High Kings in the British Isles. The Welsh Kings were mostly translated as 'Princes' later on, while the King of Brittany became a Duke and most of the lesser Irish Kings got downgraded to Earl after the Anglo-Norman conquest.

The main reason Kynaz doesn't translate to King is that King started to mean a special thing in the Roman Catholic church, so no Greek or Russian Orthodox ruler could be considered a King. Georgia managed to get around that but Russia/Moscow preferred to be a Tzar so didn't care to push the issue.

Under the Kievan Rus, Knyaz pretty much meant King. Under the Tsardom, it very much did not. But nobody spoke Russian in the Kievan Rus, they spoke the language modern Russian, Ukrainian and Belarusian derived from.

Knight just means servant too, especially in German.

[Eldan]

Knight just means servant too, especially in German.

No, it doesn't? "Ritter", from "riddare", from the verb "ridar", to ride. Same etymology as "Reiter", or "rider" in English.

[Asta Kask]

No, it doesn't? "Ritter", from "riddare", from the verb "ridar", to ride. Same etymology as "Reiter", or "rider" in English.

I think he means "knecht".

[Aedilred]

I think getting hung up on the precise definition of a local title is not particularly helpful. I mean, I think the only actual sovereign princes the world has ever seen were in France, since in Italy they were principe, furst in German, etc. Same goes for "Duke", "King" and so forth. And quite a lot of those titles had slightly different meanings depending on where you were. A Duke (or rather Duc) in France or Germany was usually lord of the territory of which he was Duke; in England Dukes didn't necessarily have any temporal ties to their duchy at all - the Duchy of Cornwall has more land in Devon than in Cornwall. The same goes for knights, Counts, Earls (initially Earls were what would have been called Dukes on the continent; then later their status was considered equivalent to a Count, even though there were operational differences), Marquis/Marquess/Margraves, etc. and basically everything.

I mean, I don't think there were two realms in Europe that ever operated in quite the same way. Even when kingdoms were created at the same time by the same person (Charlemagne, yo) the traditions of royalty and nobility diverged almost immediately on a regional basis.

The relevant question here is really how the titles were rendered by foreign observers, and the status that those rulers were deemed to have on the international stage, which is really the whole reason for the existence of a hierarchy of sovereign titles anyway. So if the knyaz of Moscow was considered to be equivalent to a western prince, rather than king, and that is the way the title is commonly rendered in English, it's relevant for consideration for the OP's purposes. If a voivode is considered equivalent to a prince, then they would count too, just as a Furst is in Germany.

(Although I'm not 100%, I wouldn't be surprised if one of the reasons principalities were more common on the fringes of and outside Catholic Europe is because "prince" was used as a catch-all rendering for sovereigns who were not considered kings, but weren't obviously anything else either.

[Killer Angel]

I am happy if someone put fictional examples (like Princess Celestia from My Little Pony).

Prince of Persia! :smallsmile:

EDIT: Mandatory soundtrack (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=VEJ8lpCQbyw#t=10) for this thread.

[Bulldog Psion]

Knight just means servant too, especially in German.

True, but we'd never write "around 400 servants charged," even though that's in effect exactly what we're saying when we write "around 400 knights charged." Nor would we say "they called in several knights to dust the windowsills and turn down the sheets."

That's what I'm saying with sluga/ritsyer.

[rlc]

"Fürst" is a general title for a high noble from the HRE. Can include counts and dukes. It's derrivation is similar to "First" in English, and it means a similar thing to "Princeps" in Latin, so it is more or less equivalent of "Prince" and a lot of Princes, as in "sovereign rulers" are called "Fürst" in German. It is not, however, the same as "Prinz", which is the son of a King.

Sorry for the nitpickery.

basically, english doesn't differentiate between a lot of things. i'm sure we got "prince" as in a king's son from the german "prinz," but we probably got "prince," a dude in charge of a principality, from when the normans attacked england and said, "nope, you guys speak french and latin now."
at least most people think of "prince" as "prinz"
or the singer.

[GolemsVoice]

Prince of Persia!

The Prince of Persia is prince because his father is king, however.

[Domino Quartz]

i'm sure we got "prince" as in a king's son from the german "prinz," but we probably got "prince," a dude in charge of a principality, from when the normans attacked england and said, "nope, you guys speak french and latin now."

I'd say it's more likely that English and German both got it from Latin (either directly or through French), and English both keeps an evolved version of the older sense (ruler of a principality, covered in German by "Fürst") and has the newer sense (son of the king, reflected in German by "Prinz").

[Asta Kask]

I'd say it's more likely that English and German both got it from Latin (either directly or through French), and English both keeps an evolved version of the older sense (ruler of a principality, covered in German by "Fürst") and has the newer sense (son of the king, reflected in German by "Prinz").

The Holy Roman Empire wasn't exactly a masterfully logical structure...

[Scarlet Knight]

I think he means "knecht".

That's the problem with word origins: it's hard to knecht the dots...

[t209]

The Prince of Persia is prince because his father is king, however.
or rather a Shahanshah (King of Kings).

[Killer Angel]

The Prince of Persia is prince because his father is king, however.

Sadly, I know, but it was so tempting... :smallwink:

[GolemsVoice]

Given what ultimately happens to his father, he might not even be prince at all anymore.

[Killer Angel]

If we go for honorific titles, Dracula is the Prince of darkness.

[Asta Kask]

I think that title belongs to Ozzy Osbourne these days.

[Ravens_cry]

If we go for honorific titles, Dracula is the Prince of darkness.
No, that title goes to another, and that's all I can really say on the subject.

[DrBurr]

Prince? I dunno. It seems like using him as a unit of measurement for anything that's not music-related would be kind of inappropriate.

Also, he's just not as useful as the metric system. Or even the Imperial one, for that matter. :smallconfused:


More on topic: wasn't The Principality of Zeon ruled by a Duke?

The Ruler of the Principality of Zeon was Degwin Sodo Zabi, Sodo meaning Leader or Lord. Even though its called a Principality Zeon seems to not use any titles often associated with one in the English translation, with the exception being Minerva Zabi who is called Princess Minerva in Zeta Gundam, though this is a case of the heir apparent being only 8 and hasn't been coronated yet, as such her Regent Haman Karn is the true leader of the remnants from Axis.

Of course some older translations, mostly the old novelizations, designate the former Colony as The Archduchy of Zion or Jion and I believe translate its ruler as Archduke Degwin Zabi. Of course that was before Gundam got big in America and the rightholders made an Official Translation and Spellings which also corrected Sha into Char and Zak into Zaku