The limits of Knowledge (Arcana)

[Iron Angel]

Our sorcerer has pretty much just started walking into every single room and doing a Knowledge (Arcana) check, and its probably my fault because I'm not sure what it does. What exactly can it do? He uses it for literally everything, from trying to identify items to trying to use it to cheat at puzzles. So, what are the limits here?

He does something similar with Spellcraft as well. Anything I shoud know there?

[Kazudo]

Arcana (ancient mysteries, magic traditions, arcane symbols, cryptic phrases, constructs, dragons, magical beasts)


That's that. Knowledge: Arcana only really affects those things. Here's the link to that page. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/knowledge.htm)

As far as Spellcraft goes, it's a bit different.



You can identify spells and magic effects. The DCs for Spellcraft checks relating to various tasks are summarized on the table below.


And the table gives some stuff. Here's the link to that page. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/spellcraft.htm)

NOTE: You can't use Spellcraft to identify magic items (aside from potions specifically) or the contents of a Scroll without Epic Usages of Spellcraft. Using Spellcraft as Identify is a DC 50+CL for basic uses, and a whopping DC 70+CL for total knowledge (as Identify).

Your player seems to either not know the limitations either, or knows the limitations and is taking advantage of you.

[jedipotter]

Your player seems to either not know the limitations either, or knows the limitations and is taking advantage of you.

So......is this proof that I'm not the only DM that runs into the........problem players.


Just use the above to links, and tell him whatever you think sounds right. I go for as little as possible, myself....almost nothing.

''You see a sigli on the door of a circle with a fire inside it''

[roll] *what is it*!

''It is the sign of the Cricle of Fire.''

[Hazrond]

So......is this proof that I'm not the only DM that runs into the........problem players.


Just use the above to links, and tell him whatever you think sounds right. I go for as little as possible, myself....almost nothing.

''You see a sigli on the door of a circle with a fire inside it''

[roll] *what is it*!

''It is the sign of the Cricle of Fire.''

that is a legitimate use of Knowledge Arcana, if he rolled well enough you should give him SOME details at least, it really just sounds like stingyness to me denying him that

Edit: assuming the circle of fire counts under the cryptic mysteries part of arcana

[jedipotter]

that is a legitimate use of Knowledge Arcana, if he rolled well enough you should give him SOME details at least, it really just sounds like stingyness to me denying him that

Edit: assuming the circle of fire counts under the cryptic mysteries part of arcana

By RAW, you need not give any details. For something like a cryptic mystery arcana, like the Cricle of Fire, it just says ''answering a question''. I'd say the player must ask a question first. And the answer is up to the DM. Sure some DM's give a whole encyclopedia of information from one roll....but that is not RAW.

[Kazudo]

So......is this proof that I'm not the only DM that runs into the........problem players.'

You are correct. Except that my definition and method of handling is vastly different.

[Iron Angel]

Say theres a pool of warm water underground with plants and grass growing around it. As the DM I know this is a healing wellspring and there is the tree of a Dryad who may or may not be offended if they bathe in it above them. What would both checks reveal about this location? Would he just be able to Knowledge: Arcana to know that the water has healing magic? Or would it just be "Its magic water"?

[The Grue]

Say theres a pool of warm water underground with plants and grass growing around it. As the DM I know this is a healing wellspring and there is the tree of a Dryad who may or may not be offended if they bathe in it above them. What would both checks reveal about this location? Would he just be able to Knowledge: Arcana to know that the water has healing magic? Or would it just be "Its magic water"?

If I were the DM, Knowledge Arcana by itself would give nothing except "You don't recognize this as being an arcane object or phenomena". With a Knowledge Nature roll on the other hand, I'd hint that the water may have healing properties. If he rolled well enough on Knowledge Nature I'd drop the suggestion that the tree shows signs of Dryad habitation.

If he used Detect Magic in combination with Knowledge Arcana, I'd give him "it's magical, roll Spellcraft to try and identify the effect". A successful Spellcraft check per the rules for identifying magical effects would reveal the waters to have healing properties.

[Slipperychicken]

Say theres a pool of warm water underground with plants and grass growing around it. As the DM I know this is a healing wellspring and there is the tree of a Dryad who may or may not be offended if they bathe in it above them. What would both checks reveal about this location? Would he just be able to Knowledge: Arcana to know that the water has healing magic? Or would it just be "Its magic water"?

There are rules for this, believe it or not.

The well is covered by Spellcraft (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/spellcraft.htm):
If it's a unique magic effect:

Spellcraft (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/spellcraft.htm)
30 or higher | Understand a strange or unique magical effect, such as the effects of a magic stream. Time required varies. No retry.

If the well is just a pool of cure potion liquid:

25 | Identify a potion. Requires 1 minute. No retry.

If the well is a result of a spell or other magic:

20 + spell level | Identify materials created or shaped by magic, such as noting that an iron wall is the result of a wall of iron spell. No action required. No retry.

If the well is an ongoing spell:

20 + spell level | Identify a spell that’s already in place and in effect. You must be able to see or detect the effects of the spell. No action required. No retry.

If the well is a magic item or architecture, then the sorcerer may need to produce an Identify spell to precisely determine its exact nature.


The Dryad is a fey, and thus covered by Knowledge (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/knowledge.htm)(Nature), not Knowledge(Arcana).

Identifying a standard MM Dryad (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/dryad.htm) is a DC 14 Knowledge(Nature) check. This also gets him at least one bit of useful information about the monster (plus an additional bit for every 5 by which he exceeds the DC).


Check
Answering a question within your field of study has a DC of 10 (for really easy questions), 15 (for basic questions), or 20 to 30 (for really tough questions).

In many cases, you can use this skill to identify monsters and their special powers or vulnerabilities. In general, the DC of such a check equals 10 + the monster’s HD. A successful check allows you to remember a bit of useful information about that monster.

For every 5 points by which your check result exceeds the DC, you recall another piece of useful information.


I'd give him the dryad-identification roll. If he exceeds the DC by 5 (i.e. if he gets 19 or higher on Knowledge(Nature)), he recalls two pieces of information:
1. Such magical places as this may (or may not) be home to such fey creatures as fairies, nymphs, or dryads.
2. Dryads are fiercely protective of their trees and other magical locations near their trees.

[Zanos]

That's that. Knowledge: Arcana only really affects those things. Here's the link to that page. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/knowledge.htm)

As far as Spellcraft goes, it's a bit different.



And the table gives some stuff. Here's the link to that page. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/spellcraft.htm)

NOTE: You can't use Spellcraft to identify magic items (aside from potions specifically) or the contents of a Scroll without Epic Usages of Spellcraft. Using Spellcraft as Identify is a DC 50+CL for basic uses, and a whopping DC 70+CL for total knowledge (as Identify).

Your player seems to either not know the limitations either, or knows the limitations and is taking advantage of you.
You actually can identify magic items with spellcraft and detect magic. Check the MIC section on identifying magic items. It only requires that you study the item with detect magic and that you beat the DC to determine the school of it's aura by 10.

[Flickerdart]

Our sorcerer has pretty much just started walking into every single room and doing a Knowledge (Arcana) check, and its probably my fault because I'm not sure what it does. What exactly can it do? He uses it for literally everything, from trying to identify items to trying to use it to cheat at puzzles. So, what are the limits here?

He does something similar with Spellcraft as well. Anything I shoud know there?
Well, it's very likely that there's not going to be much in any given room that Arcana or Spellcraft will be able to help with. If they're in a dungeon or a wizard's tower or something, though...there are two things you can do.

One: The sorcerer is perfectly entitled to a modicum of arcane knowledge about the world he lives in. Just as you or I might be able to walk into a library and recognize books we are familiar with from their titles, or a mechanic could tell what wrenches and screwdrivers are used for which tasks, the sorcerer should be able to recognize objects and spells he has learned about. If you prepare notes about your game world ahead of time, it will help increase the players' immersion and make it feel like a real place instead of jedipotter's halls full of cardboard cutouts. He walks into a library and sees it is decorated with banners bearing a mystic sigil, and he rolls for it? That sigil was the personal crest of a powerful archmage who studied illusion magic, and is displayed out of respect for the wisdom and knowledge that is contained within the available books. He sees an exotic pet on the shoulder of a wizard, and rolls Arcana? It's a very rare bird from so-and-so land, which is known for very tall cactuses and delicious mangoes.

If the question catches you off-guard and you haven't prepared anything, drop a name and a place to look for more information. If he suddenly wants to leaf through a book that you haven't thought about filling? He sees references to something called, let's say, the Rite of Seven. He doesn't know what it is, but if he's interested in finding out, next session he could ask the librarian about it or look it up in a more basic volume. Conveniently enough, that gives you enough time to prepare that information!

Always treasure your players' desire to learn more about your world. It means they're interested in it and want to engage with it. Stonewalling information will lead to people getting bored and drifting off.

[Coidzor]

You actually can identify magic items with spellcraft and detect magic. Check the MIC section on identifying magic items. It only requires that you study the item with detect magic and that you beat the DC to determine the school of it's aura by 10.

That's pretty neat, and here I'd thought that using skills to ID magic items was solely a Pathfinder invention.

[Iron Angel]

Well, it's very likely that there's not going to be much in any given room that Arcana or Spellcraft will be able to help with. If they're in a dungeon or a wizard's tower or something, though...there are two things you can do.

One: The sorcerer is perfectly entitled to a modicum of arcane knowledge about the world he lives in. Just as you or I might be able to walk into a library and recognize books we are familiar with from their titles, or a mechanic could tell what wrenches and screwdrivers are used for which tasks, the sorcerer should be able to recognize objects and spells he has learned about. If you prepare notes about your game world ahead of time, it will help increase the players' immersion and make it feel like a real place instead of jedipotter's halls full of cardboard cutouts. He walks into a library and sees it is decorated with banners bearing a mystic sigil, and he rolls for it? That sigil was the personal crest of a powerful archmage who studied illusion magic, and is displayed out of respect for the wisdom and knowledge that is contained within the available books. He sees an exotic pet on the shoulder of a wizard, and rolls Arcana? It's a very rare bird from so-and-so land, which is known for very tall cactuses and delicious mangoes.

If the question catches you off-guard and you haven't prepared anything, drop a name and a place to look for more information. If he suddenly wants to leaf through a book that you haven't thought about filling? He sees references to something called, let's say, the Rite of Seven. He doesn't know what it is, but if he's interested in finding out, next session he could ask the librarian about it or look it up in a more basic volume. Conveniently enough, that gives you enough time to prepare that information!

Always treasure your players' desire to learn more about your world. It means they're interested in it and want to engage with it. Stonewalling information will lead to people getting bored and drifting off.

I love lore, and if that was the motivation behind his checks, I would gladly oblige. He's trying instead to undermine traps (that he doesn't know are there) and cheat puzzles with it (by using knowledge arcana to have the answer handed to him). I just needed someone to tell me if he could do this and it seems he could not.

[Flickerdart]

I love lore, and if that was the motivation behind his checks, I would gladly oblige. He's trying instead to undermine traps (that he doesn't know are there) and cheat puzzles with it (by using knowledge arcana to have the answer handed to him). I just needed someone to tell me if he could do this and it seems he could not.
Traps could be handled with Spellcraft in some cases (identifying a sigil for a symbol spell, for instance - assuming that it isn't one that activates when you look at it). Puzzles should be handled very carefully in D&D, since characters will often be much more intelligent than their players. Perhaps allow him an Intelligence check to produce a hint; that will make him feel like his stats do something but still require legwork.

[pwykersotz]

Check out Rule#1 (http://angrydm.com/2012/12/five-simple-rules-for-dating-my-teenaged-skill-system/2/) of 5 Simple Rules for Dating my Teenage Skill System (http://angrydm.com/2012/12/five-simple-rules-for-dating-my-teenaged-skill-system/).

It should resolve that problem nicely.

[jedipotter]

I love lore, and if that was the motivation behind his checks, I would gladly oblige. He's trying instead to undermine traps (that he doesn't know are there) and cheat puzzles with it (by using knowledge arcana to have the answer handed to him). I just needed someone to tell me if he could do this and it seems he could not.

I love lore too. But I'm not happy with the way D&D does it. Player sits at the table. Character encounters something. Player rolls and says ''DM, tell me what it is''. I find that very boring.

I like for the players to figure things out, ''for real''. Not just be told things.

For example, I might describe a healing pool as:

''The water has a golden color to it.'' (gold/yellow=good, maybe healing)
''All the plants around the edge of the pool look very healthy, strong and vibrant. Full of deep green color. You see no brown or wilted plants anywhere near the pool. All the plants around the pool look like perfect examples of wild plants. (The idea tha the plants are healthy)

I might describe a minor healing effect, depending on actions like ''when the water splashs on your hand, you see the tiny red cut on your finger fade away.'' Or '' the leaf you stepped on, uncurshes and unfolds, and looks exactly like it did before you stepped on it.''

The Drayd Tree would get ''an air of magic around it'' or ''you feel a slight tingle in the air and your hair stands on end'' or otherwise let it be known that ''it is not just a tree''.

Then the players would have to figure out what it all means.

And I always sprinkel lore all over the game.

[Siosilvar]

-snip-

Do your players also have to know how to use a sword competently?

Not saying that this isn't fun, because it definitely is, but it's not exclusive with using the skill system. Of course just rolling to figure out what stuff is is boring, that's exactly the problem expressed here. But you can give out lore and use the skill rolls to give out more hints.

Just an example of how to use the skill system in a positive way, off the top of my head:

Entering the area: "All the plants around the edge of the pool look very healthy, strong and vibrant. Full of deep green color. You see no brown or wilted plants anywhere near the pool. All the plants around the pool look like perfect examples of wild plants." (yes, this is a direct quote from you. I thought it was neat)

Knowledge(Arcana) DC8: "You remember stories of magic pools from your studies that can be found in places like these, but can't quite recall the details."

DC12: something something effects when stuff is dipped in the pools

DC20: something something just being near the pool makes you feel charged and refreshed, reminding you of healing effects


Sure, the higher DC gives the effect away, but since they've spent character resources on this, that's kind of the idea. And a smart player can figure out everything they need through trial and error and the original hints anyway. Used properly the skill rules can make the game better, even if the answer to the question asked with the roll is "you don't know, where do you go to find out?"

[jedipotter]

Used properly the skill rules can make the game better, even if the answer to the question asked with the roll is "you don't know, where do you go to find out?"

Eh, your skill results don't really tell a player much.....

[dextercorvia]

''The water has a golden color to it.'' (gold/yellow=good, maybe healing)


I have a pool of water in a small room in my house. Sometimes it is golden colored. I'm reasonably certain that it doesn't have healing properties. Of course, anyone is welcome to try it for themselves.

[Slipperychicken]

I have a pool of water in a small room in my house. Sometimes it is golden colored. I'm reasonably certain that it doesn't have healing properties. Of course, anyone is welcome to try it for themselves.

Clearly you don't have as many Knowledge(Arcana) ranks as jedipotter does.

[eggynack]

I love lore too. But I'm not happy with the way D&D does it. Player sits at the table. Character encounters something. Player rolls and says ''DM, tell me what it is''. I find that very boring.

I like for the players to figure things out, ''for real''. Not just be told things.

Y'know, there's one thing I think I have to know. Are you aware that this rule set you espouse actually sets your game further from reality than it already is?

[Flickerdart]

Y'know, there's one thing I think I have to know. Are you aware that this rule set you espouse actually sets your game further from reality than it already is?
I'm 100% convinced that jedipotter is as far removed from reality as physically possible. As Lovecraft wrote: "Outside the ordered universe is that amorphous blight of nethermost confusion which blasphemes and bubbles at the center of all infinity—the boundless daemon sultan whose name no lips dare speak aloud, and who gnaws hungrily in inconceivable, unlighted chambers beyond time and space amidst the muffled, maddening beating of vile drums and the thin monotonous whine of accursed flutes."

[Slipperychicken]

I'm 100% convinced that jedipotter is as far removed from reality as physically possible. As Lovecraft wrote: "Outside the ordered universe is that amorphous blight of nethermost confusion which blasphemes and bubbles at the center of all infinity—the boundless daemon sultan whose name no lips dare speak aloud, and who gnaws hungrily in inconceivable, unlighted chambers beyond time and space amidst the muffled, maddening beating of vile drums and the thin monotonous whine of accursed flutes."

I think Azathoth's forum-posts would actually be pretty awesome, even if he had to make Nyarlathotep translate for him.

[Kazudo]

Learn from the Rudisplorking Guild. Just don't try to tell people their houserules are dumb unless they ask for it specifically by name. Leave it be or you too will experience the pain. ESPECIALLY JP. :smalltongue:

With that being spoilered, it sounds like what's being used here is bardic knowledge, whose check states (IIRC) that it's the catch-all for stuff not specifically covered under the other knowledges. I tend to basically allow bards to make me a general use knowledge check, treating Knowledge (Bardic) as its own skill and permitting them to roll either the requisite knowledge for more direct and specific (narrow, at times) information, or roll Knowledge (Bardic) for more general information, whichever they want to. It does lead to that one character being the know-it-all, but other than that it has no real other purpose.

I like it. It simplifies things.