1st Level Wizard vs 1st Level Fighter (did we not do this already?)

[gorilla-turtle]

I was reminded today of something interesting brought up by a player in a play by post game that I had been meaning to ask. A while back, one conversation or another on the forum supposedly lead to an interesting conversation about the game. There is a rather large conception that at low levels, and especially at first level, that a Wizard is more helpless than any designated victim of the week, and that the Fighter and all other martial classes walk over it entirely. However, I was under the impression that a group on this forum actually ran a few experiments on this subject, and actually learned that the situation is more or less rocket tag, even without spell-casting, and that a Wizard could still survive fighting against a Fighter, simply because of how weak both are.

If anyone happens to know where that thread went to, I would appreciate the read.

[Eldan]

It is indeed rocket tag. I mean, look at saves.

A fighter with an unreasonably high, but possible will save, at level 1:
Wisdom 18 (+4), Iron Will (+2), total +6

A wizard with an average-ish DC:
Color Spray (Level 1, +1), Intelligence 16 (+3): DC 14

The fighter still needs to roll 8+ still, so he has a 35% chance of failing, at which point the wizard has 3d4 rounds to CdG him.

With a more reasonable and common will save of +1? 75% chance of failing.

And that's just one spell, fairly unoptimized. The wizard could have abrupt jaunt.

Or in melee? A prepared wizard has easily an AC of 20 (shield, mage armour, dex +2), probably higher than the fighter. The fighter can easily kill him in one hit (1d10+6 damage is not at all unrealistic, which is pretty much guaranteed against a wizard with, at best, 8 or 9 HP, if a dwarf). The wizard has maybe 1d8+1 damage (12 STR elf with longsword). If our fighter has 14 HP, that's three average hits, though it's doable with one high crit.

[eggynack]

It is a rocket tag, but likely favored towards the wizard. Whoever goes first has a pretty high chance of just winning, especially when you consider the fact that the wizard's abrupt jaunt will start triggering after he takes an action, and the wizard, with things like nerveskitter, high dexterity (with heavy armor, the fighter has lower incentives to boost it), and maybe a hummingbird familiar, is pretty highly likely to go first.

[Vogonjeltz]

I was reminded today of something interesting brought up by a player in a play by post game that I had been meaning to ask. A while back, one conversation or another on the forum supposedly lead to an interesting conversation about the game. There is a rather large conception that at low levels, and especially at first level, that a Wizard is more helpless than any designated victim of the week, and that the Fighter and all other martial classes walk over it entirely. However, I was under the impression that a group on this forum actually ran a few experiments on this subject, and actually learned that the situation is more or less rocket tag, even without spell-casting, and that a Wizard could still survive fighting against a Fighter, simply because of how weak both are.

If anyone happens to know where that thread went to, I would appreciate the read.

It's not rocket tag, if the wizard is the aggressor, they have a chance. If the fighter is, they don't.

Illustration: 1st level spell ranges are almost universally close range (25 ft).

All a fighter has to do is engage at 60' and the wizard can't even do anything until turn 2.

Since there are several varieties of wizard, did you want to specify what kind you're thinking of?

[eggynack]

It's not rocket tag, if the wizard is the aggressor, they have a chance. If the fighter is, they don't.

Illustration: 1st level spell ranges are almost universally close range (25 ft).

All a fighter has to do is engage at 60' and the wizard can't even do anything until turn 2.

Since there are several varieties of wizard, did you want to specify what kind you're thinking of?
That's only really true if the fighter is a ranged character, and I've found that they so rarely are until they're expected to go up against a caster.

[Eldan]

That's true. At long ranges, the wizard has to resort to mundane weapons. Crossbows or longbows, if an elf. At that, the fighter probably wins. (Probably about equal AC if buffed, much higher if unbuffed, wizard might have higher dexterity, but fighter has base attack, fighter has probably about double the HP).

[Vhaidara]

It's fighter vs druid, but I request that Vogonjeltz do the required reading of Pickford's legacy (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?308097-D-amp-D-3-5-Tier-System) before the argument start again

[Eldan]

That's only really true if the fighter is a ranged character, and I've found that they so rarely are until they're expected to go up against a caster.

Well, let's run a few numbers.

Reasonable best case for the wizard:
Elf wizard, 20 dex, 12 con, 0 BAB, longbow. Buff spells active, no relevant feats.
AC: 22, Attack +5, damage 1d8, 5 HP.

Fighter:
Human fighter, +1 BAB, no relevant feats, Dex 12, Con 16, full plate and longbow.
AC: 19, Attack +2, damage 1d8, 13 HP.

Wizard probably wins initiative. Has a 70% chance to hit, needs three average hits.
Fighter hits only on a crit, 5% of the time, in which case he kills the wizard.

Unlikely, though.

More reasonable case:
Same fighter, with 14 dex and weapon focus longbow, so +4 to hit.
Wizard has 14 dex and a light crossbow and only one buff spell for AC, so 16 AC.

Fighter hits on a 12, 40%. Average damage kills in two turns, 1 if the wizard has no con bonus. 1 hit kill is still reasonable, though, up to 8 HP, which is quite high for a first level wizard.

Wizard hits on a 16, 20%, still needs three hits. Clearly loses.


Edit:
Do note, however, that in clear terrain, the fighter can also charge 60ft., which will likely kill the wizard too, unless he's an abrupt jaunter.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

The challenge the OP is thinking of was a fairly optimized Barbarian and an optimized-for-first-level Wizard fighting an entire (unoptimized) party of higher level adventurers. The wizard owned things up with an animal companion, color spray, and enlarge person. The barbarian would have been barely victorious but for a slight build modification.

RE: Fighter with a bow.
You don't have to be a "ranged character" to carry a bow. A level 1 tripper who normally attacks at +5 for 1d10+6 in melee could happily switch to a shortbow at +3 for 1d6 if the mage can't respond in kind. That said we're talking about very particular encounter distances, and Sleep is medium range.

[Somensjev]

Well, let's run a few numbers.

Reasonable best case for the wizard:
Elf wizard, 20 dex, 12 con, 0 BAB, longbow. Buff spells active, no relevant feats.
AC: 22, Attack +5, damage 1d8, 5 HP.

Fighter:
Human fighter, +1 BAB, no relevant feats, Dex 12, Con 16, full plate and longbow.
AC: 19, Attack +2, damage 1d8, 13 HP.

Wizard probably wins initiative. Has a 70% chance to hit, needs three average hits.
Fighter hits only on a crit, 5% of the time, in which case he kills the wizard.

Unlikely, though.

More reasonable case:
Same fighter, with 14 dex and weapon focus longbow, so +4 to hit.
Wizard has 14 dex and a light crossbow and only one buff spell for AC, so 16 AC.

Fighter hits on a 12, 40%. Average damage kills in two turns, 1 if the wizard has no con bonus. 1 hit kill is still reasonable, though, up to 8 HP, which is quite high for a first level wizard.

Wizard hits on a 16, 20%, still needs three hits. Clearly loses.


Edit:
Do note, however, that in clear terrain, the fighter can also charge 60ft., which will likely kill the wizard too, unless he's an abrupt jaunter.

sheild+mage armor+X true strike's (where X = the number of level 1 spells/day-2)? possibly even using protection from X

even if the fighter is attacking the wizard, the wizard will quite likely have a higher initiative, so he reacts first, for a few buffs, then depending on if the fighter is close or long range, he can use different spells

[Eldan]

sheild+mage armor+X true strike's (where X = the number of level 1 spells/day-2)? possibly even using protection from X

even if the fighter is attacking the wizard, the wizard will quite likely have a higher initiative, so he reacts first, for a few buffs, then depending on if the fighter is close or long range, he can use different spells

Except the wizard still needs multiple hits on the fighter to kill him, unless he crits. And each true strike eats another round without shooting.

So, you know. First round: wizard hits. Deals 1d8 damage. Fighter shoots back, has a good chance to kill the wizard. Wizard casts true strike. Fighter hits again. Wizard shoots, deals 1d8 damage, maybe kills. Fighter shoots back for the third time.

[dextercorvia]

Class Power By Level (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?228852-Class-Power-by-Level)

This thread led to LonelyTylelonal, Phaederkiel, and myself doing a same game test vs. a level 3 party (in a best 2 out of 3 contest). LT used an OGL only barbarian, I used an OGL only Wizard, and Phaed used a Splat Barbarian (all level 1). The name of the game thread where we played out the challenge was called The Power Challenge, but has been lost unless someone can find it on the wayback machine.

The result was LT made a bad choice and won 1/lost 2 of his battles. If he had picked Boar Totem instead of Bear, then statistically he should have won the other two. I forget how Phaed did, but I think he won 2/3 of his. My wizard won his first two without any opponent making an offensive action, so I never played the third.

Edit:Ninja'd by GoodbyeSoberDay, but I can provide you the sheet for the Wizard I used -- Spells McOgl (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=364041)

[Somensjev]

Except the wizard still needs multiple hits on the fighter to kill him, unless he crits. And each true strike eats another round without shooting.

So, you know. First round: wizard hits. Deals 1d8 damage. Fighter shoots back, has a good chance to kill the wizard. Wizard casts true strike. Fighter hits again. Wizard shoots, deals 1d8 damage, maybe kills. Fighter shoots back for the third time.

that's true, so true strike wouldn't be worth it, but without it you've got a much lower chance of hitting

actually, it was brought up that sleep is medium range, and i see that often being referenced as one of the better 1st level spells

can a fighter deal with a prepared list of shield+mage armor+however many sleep's, assuming that the wizard wins initiative

[Eldan]

Sleep is probably the decisive factor here.

I mean, absolute best case. Crappy wizard with 14 int (can happen if going by the DMG recommended point buys of 25 or 28 points or bad rolling), DC 13 spell. Highly optimized will fighter, 18 wis, iron will, +5 save. Still fails... 40% of the time. 36% chance to save twice in a row against sleep and the fighter needs two rounds to cross a first level sleep spell's reach.

More likely is a will save of +1 or +2 and a DC of around 14 or 15. Best case I can see right now is grey elf wizard with spell focus enchantment and 20 int, DC 18. Unlikely, though.

So, +2 vs. 15: 35% chance to make the first, 12.25% to make two.
+2 vs. 18: 20% to make the first, 4% to make two.

After which the wizard can go CdG with a dagger.

[Somensjev]

those percentages are really painful to look at. sometimes i wish this game was balanced, but that's less fun

[Eldan]

Though, sleep has a 1 round casting time. So the fighter might be able to do it with only one sleep aimed at him. But the wizard can also walk backwards 30 feet after each casting.

Actually, forget that. Let's instead assume bow fighter against sleep wizard. Since the fighter has to stay more than 110 ft. away, he probably takes a minus for range increments, so probably only has a +1 or +2 to hit against an AC of 18. He might still do that, if only because the wizard has probably only two or three sleeps before running out.

[Shinken]

If the fighter is a dwarf, the spells are 10% less likely to work.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

A first level elven generalist domain wizard with 20 INT (reasonable best case) will have 5 first level spells prepared. Is he really burning two of those on AC pre-buffs? Also how is he pre-buffing? Really, whoever gets the jump seems to have a huge advantage here.

Which reminds me: Beguilers are great at level 1. Take a Whisper Gnome with +4 dex +4 size +4 ranks +4 racial +4 competence* = +20 Hide (+16 move silently). A fighter or wizard with 14 WIS and cross class ranks in spot (generous) will have a +4, minus distance penalties and perhaps distraction penalties. And the beguiler has almost all of the great 1st level wizard spells; it's later levels where his list becomes constraining.

*Shape Soulmeld: Kruthik Claws, though again this is optimized for first level.

[Eldariel]

At that range terrain also plays a huge factor. Open plains is one thing but e.g. in a forest, a Wizard doesn't care about concealment or cover (it's just an AOE aimed at ground). Dungeon plain just doesn't have those ranges available.

[DeAnno]

Class Power By Level (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?228852-Class-Power-by-Level)

This thread led to LonelyTylelonal, Phaederkiel, and myself doing a same game test vs. a level 3 party (in a best 2 out of 3 contest). LT used an OGL only barbarian, I used an OGL only Wizard, and Phaed used a Splat Barbarian (all level 1). The name of the game thread where we played out the challenge was called The Power Challenge, but has been lost unless someone can find it on the wayback machine.

The result was LT made a bad choice and won 1/lost 2 of his battles. If he had picked Boar Totem instead of Bear, then statistically he should have won the other two. I forget how Phaed did, but I think he won 2/3 of his. My wizard won his first two without any opponent making an offensive action, so I never played the third.

Edit:Ninja'd by GoodbyeSoberDay, but I can provide you the sheet for the Wizard I used -- Spells McOgl (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=364041)

Were these three encounters taken in a row or after a rest each time? I don't think its surprising that the Wizard does better when he has a 5 minute workday.

[Vogonjeltz]

sheild+mage armor+X true strike's (where X = the number of level 1 spells/day-2)? possibly even using protection from X

even if the fighter is attacking the wizard, the wizard will quite likely have a higher initiative, so he reacts first, for a few buffs, then depending on if the fighter is close or long range, he can use different spells

How many spells are we assuming for the wizard?
Which spells?
What stats?

The answers to these questions are going to make a dramatic difference to the result.

Someone loaded up on true strikes is using 2 rounds for every 1 attack (and thus taking 2 attacks in return)

And if they have color spray in 1 slot and Mage armor in another that's 2 slots used. So at least one bonus spell

[draken50]

Do you allow the wizard to cast sleep from a prone position? If so, could be useful against a fighter. Is the fighter readying an action to shoot at the wizard when he is casting?

[Eldariel]

Do you allow the wizard to cast sleep from a prone position? If so, could be useful against a fighter. Is the fighter readying an action to shoot at the wizard when he is casting?

Of course a Wizard can cast from prone (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#prone), the only limitations the status imposes on you is inability to use non-Crossbow ranged weapons and -4 on melee attacks, -4 AC vs. melee and no movement except for crawling (that's not explicitly spelled out but we can probably figure out that's why the Crawl action exists).

[Eldan]

If the wizard tries casting from prone, though, the fighter can just run away and stay out of range.

So, very alternate tactic: guerilla fighter. Halfling fighter with ranks in the stealth skills and a shortbow. Survival too, if he can manage it.

He hides, preferably about 200 feet away. Whenever the wizard tries to sleep, read his book or eat, he starts shooting. Every other case, he runs away and waits.

What does the wizard do?

[Vhaidara]

This argument has literally already been made, in the thread that I posted. It was Fighter vs Druid, but the principle still applies. The only situation where the fighter had a chance was in a contrived situation beginning at a specific range chosen by the fighter, and it only works in an environment where the fighter can see the wizard at that range (flat, featureless plain).

[SinsI]

Sleep is probably the decisive factor here.

I mean, absolute best case. Crappy wizard with 14 int (can happen if going by the DMG recommended point buys of 25 or 28 points or bad rolling), DC 13 spell. Highly optimized will fighter, 18 wis, iron will, +5 save. Still fails... 40% of the time. 36% chance to save twice in a row against sleep and the fighter needs two rounds to cross a first level sleep spell's reach.

No. Absolute best case is wizard with only Sleep and Elf fighter.

[Karnith]

No. Absolute best case is wizard with only Sleep and Elf fighter.
Or, to cover a wider spread, an evil Fighter who has pledged to serve an Elder Evil and has Willing Deformity as his first-level feat and Deformity (Madness) as his bonus Vile feat.

[Vogonjeltz]

This argument has literally already been made, in the thread that I posted. It was Fighter vs Druid, but the principle still applies. The only situation where the fighter had a chance was in a contrived situation beginning at a specific range chosen by the fighter, and it only works in an environment where the fighter can see the wizard at that range (flat, featureless plain).

How well another class might or might not do has no bearing on the question at hand.

Wizards have a d4, no armor, and very few spells that work at ranges beyond 25'.

Sleep works at up to 110', but it also takes 1 round to cast, inviting interruption or the enemy to just hide behind some cover, wasting the spell.

[Malroth]

Fell Drain + Sonic Snap + Metamagic reducer of choice + Humming bird familiar= Dead fighter no save

[dextercorvia]

Were these three encounters taken in a row or after a rest each time? I don't think its surprising that the Wizard does better when he has a 5 minute workday.

After a rest (on both sides). However, the Wizard had spells/scrolls left after each fight, and was at full HP. The Barbarians were usually alive only based on their Diehard feat (in the negatives). I don't believe the Wizard was ready to solo another EL 7 encounter, but he could easily have contributed (meaningfully) to 2-3 more level appropriate encounters.

Remember, Melee types require a 5 min workday at level 1, if they have no access to healing.

[Endarire]

What about a no-save kill?

If we can boost the caster level high enough on magic missile, then there's no save, just die for the first level Fighter.

For example, assume I'm a Strongheart Halfling took 2 flaws. I take the feats (any metamagic feat), Sudden Maximize Spell, Iron Will, and Reserves of Strength. I take the traits Aggressive and Spellgifted: Evocation. I can cast magic missile at caster level 5, though I'm Dazed for 3 rounds thereafter. I hit and deal a guaranteed 15 damage. Unless that Fighter has a massively high amount of hit points, I just win. (Maybe he's a Human Fighter with Toughness twice, but I doubt it.)

Alternatively, use sonic snap (a level 0 damaging spell with no save) and apply Fell Drain to it via metamagic cost reducers. For example, Metamagic School Focus: Evocation could work as an Evoker, as could Easy Metamagic. This sonic snap method requires the foe to be in Close range instead of Medium for magic missile but the principle is the same - an optimized (for level 1) no-save-Wizard-wins situation.

[Somensjev]

even more fun, human wizard with one flaw
so you've got three feats, acane thesis (grease/sleep/hypnotism), enlarge spell, sculpt spell

you can hit from 180ft away with either grease or hypnotism, or, you can make the fighter fall asleep at any range starting at 340ft


i don't think any fighter would really be able to deal with that sleep unless they're immune to magical sleep

[Karnith]

even more fun, human wizard with one flaw
so you've got three feats, acane thesis (grease/sleep/hypnotism), enlarge spell, sculpt spell
Well, unless you've got some method of ignoring feat prereqs or are using stupendous cheese, you probably aren't going to be taking Arcane Thesis at first level, since it requires 9 ranks of Knowledge (Arcana).

[Somensjev]

Well, unless you've got some method of ignoring feat prereqs or are using stupendous cheese, you probably aren't going to be taking Arcane Thesis at first level, since it requires 9 ranks of Knowledge (Arcana).

i knew i'd made an error somewhere, i just couldn't figure out what :smallredface:

i'm sure there's some kind of metamagic reducer for first level wizards

[Karnith]

i'm sure there's some kind of metamagic reducer for first level wizards
There are a few, but Metamagic School Focus is the only one that I know of that can reduce a +1 metamagic adjustment down to +0, and you only get 3 uses of it per day.

[Vaz]

If the wizard tries casting from prone, though, the fighter can just run away and stay out of range.

So, very alternate tactic: guerilla fighter. Halfling fighter with ranks in the stealth skills and a shortbow. Survival too, if he can manage it.

He hides, preferably about 200 feet away. Whenever the wizard tries to sleep, read his book or eat, he starts shooting. Every other case, he runs away and waits.

What does the wizard do?

Sits in his windowless wizard apprentices room that is locked by an master difficulty lock until assassin gets bored. He completes challenges set by his masters which increase his power level.

[Eldariel]

If the wizard tries casting from prone, though, the fighter can just run away and stay out of range.

So, very alternate tactic: guerilla fighter. Halfling fighter with ranks in the stealth skills and a shortbow. Survival too, if he can manage it.

He hides, preferably about 200 feet away. Whenever the wizard tries to sleep, read his book or eat, he starts shooting. Every other case, he runs away and waits.

What does the wizard do?

I mean, depending on the terrain, there's always the Tower Shield cheese (you can be basically immune to attacks even if you're not proficient by using it for total cover). Low-level Wizards can also Hide themselves just fine; Gray/Fire Elves have a reasonable setup of Spot and Hide for instance.

[DeAnno]

If you're going for Hide, Slight Build Kobolds with +2 Dex and +8 to Hide are hard to beat. The lack of Con and Str aren't really issues either (if you get hit, you're dead anyway), and Kobolds also feature 30 ft speed and Small Size for additional AC.

[Elkad]

Spend your starting wealth on a horse. Spam Sleep from range.
If the fighter is an elf, he's got a con penalty and likely only 12hp. Hope you can dodge enough arrows to kill him with Magic Missile, but you are probably going to die.
Maybe Launch Item and Alchemist's Fire from 440' away?

[Ivanhoe]

The fighter probably has trouble even to fight one of the wizard's class features: the familiar.

A snake, for instance, has AC 17 out of the box, gets +1 natural AC from being a familiar, and with a mage armor will have an AC of 22. It has +5 attack bonus and does 1d6 CON poison every time it hits (edit: DC 10 to save). It has a good chance to kill the fighter (in particular it will often go first, with +7 initiative) before the fighter even hits it. It gets worse once the wizard starts to buff the familiar with shield or reduce person via share spells. And that is just from the SRD.

Basically, it's similar to the druid's power in that regard - the animal companion also shown various times to outclass the fighter in combat.

[Vogonjeltz]

Sits in his windowless wizard apprentices room that is locked by an master difficulty lock until assassin gets bored. He completes challenges set by his masters which increase his power level.

Won't he just starve to death?
The fighter can burn down the building then.
Or just chain the door shut (see first question)


I mean, depending on the terrain, there's always the Tower Shield cheese (you can be basically immune to attacks even if you're not proficient by using it for total cover). Low-level Wizards can also Hide themselves just fine; Gray/Fire Elves have a reasonable setup of Spot and Hide for instance.

Nice hypothetical. Of course it weighs 45 lbs and brings a 50% spell failure chance.


Spend your starting wealth on a horse. Spam Sleep from range.
If the fighter is an elf, he's got a con penalty and likely only 12hp. Hope you can dodge enough arrows to kill him with Magic Missile, but you are probably going to die.
Maybe Launch Item and Alchemist's Fire from 440' away?

If the wizard spent all their gold on a horse they have no items to launch and no alchemist fire. Horses are usually cost prohibitive at level 1.


The fighter probably has trouble even to fight one of the wizard's class features: the familiar.

A snake, for instance, has AC 17 out of the box, gets +1 natural AC from being a familiar, and with a mage armor will have an AC of 22. It has +5 attack bonus and does 1d6 CON poison every time it hits (edit: DC 10 to save). It has a good chance to kill the fighter (in particular it will often go first, with +7 initiative) before the fighter even hits it. It gets worse once the wizard starts to buff the familiar with shield or reduce person via share spells. And that is just from the SRD.

Basically, it's similar to the druid's power in that regard - the animal companion also shown various times to outclass the fighter in combat.

It's also a tiny viper and provokes an attack of opportunity just by entering the Fighters square. Unless the encounter is starting at point blank range (and why would it?) the snake winning initiative doesn't really matter.

[Ivanhoe]

It's also a tiny viper and provokes an attack of opportunity just by entering the Fighters square. Unless the encounter is starting at point blank range (and why would it?) the snake winning initiative doesn't really matter.

An attack of opportunity really is not doing much vs an opponent that has 22+ AC. And in case the fighter is flat-footed (by losing initiative), he cannot even do an AoO.
The snake has +15 to hide and +3 to move silently. It can easily sneak up on the fighter into a range it needs to enter melee combat.

[Vhaidara]

Okay, so wizards get 75 gold. Your fighter has bought his bow and his armor and his arrows. The wizard, being smarter, hires and 5 centaurs for 30 gold. Arms and Equipment Guide, page 70. Have fun fighting a bunch of centaurs.

[Elkad]

Spend your starting wealth on a horse. Spam Sleep from range.
If the fighter is an elf, he's got a con penalty and likely only 12hp. Hope you can dodge enough arrows to kill him with Magic Missile, but you are probably going to die.
Maybe Launch Item and Alchemist's Fire from 440' away?


If the wizard spent all their gold on a horse they have no items to launch and no alchemist fire. Horses are usually cost prohibitive at level 1.

I meant for the Launch Item / Alchemists Fire to be separate from the horse buying, since you have a bunch of range at that point and hopefully won't need the horse.

[Eldariel]

Nice hypothetical. Of course it weighs 45 lbs and brings a 50% spell failure chance.

You don't need to cast spells holding it. Drop it (free action), cast stuff when you feel like it.

[Vaz]

Won't he just starve to death?
The fighter can burn down the building then.
Or just chain the door shut (see first question)
How do you burn stone? And the Wizard won't starve, he's in his Mage's Guild where there are methods of communication. Ever done "secret knocks" as a kid? Works just as well. And "what's the password". "There is no password". "Of course you're correct". Door stays shut.

"What's the password?"
"There is no password."
"Of course you're correct."
"Dingleberries"

Door opens. Also - Divinations.

[Firechanter]

A Ranged build might have a chance, but then again, if you want a Ranged build, you probably wouldn't pick Fighter (but Ranger or something).
Also note how expensive bows are compared to melee weapons, so a 1st level Fighter will probably not even be able to afford a bow, and absolutely not a composite longbow with his Str rating.

Normally, a Fighter has to close in, and even if he tries a Charge, Wizard can just Abrupt Jaunt out of harm's way.
Wizard' turns: Colour Spray or Sleep. Note the long range Sleep has. DC ~15-18 vs the Fighter's Will Save of +/-0. DC16 is reasonable, so that's a 75% chance to end the fight right there.
If the Fighter survives this, he can try to hit the Wizard again, but he will just Jaunt away because he can do this 4 times per day.

Now the Wizard still has three spell slots left; two from high Int / Spellcasting Prodigy, and one specialist Conjuration slot. Maybe he has prepped Colour Spray again.

For lulz, his Conj slot could be Mount, so if the Fighter succeeds absolutely every Save the Wiz throws at him, the Wiz just summons a horse and rides away, to live and fight another day.

The total odds for the Fighter to win this battle are the same as those to do all of the following successfully
1. go first
2. hit the Wizard with a ranged attack
3. for enough damage to knock him into the negatives.

Winning Initiative is very roughly a 50-50 chance; hitting the Wizard at range is another 50-50, and doing sufficient damage (6 points) is about 37% --> 9,3%.

Note that I'm not optimizing either of these characters for this dueling thing; both are supposed to be normal adventurers that you might see in everyday play.

[GameSpawn]

Given that some strategies that are being floated around rely on a familiar, it's worth noting that it costs 100 gp to summon one, and the wizards average wealth at first level is only 75 gp.

Not that there aren't other strategies the wizard can employ.

[Vogonjeltz]

Okay, so wizards get 75 gold. Your fighter has bought his bow and his armor and his arrows. The wizard, being smarter, hires and 5 centaurs for 30 gold. Arms and Equipment Guide, page 70. Have fun fighting a bunch of centaurs.

I was actually thinking of a smart fighter, so with his greater starting wealth he could hire mercenaries (1sp per day), say 1000 of them, and just raid the tower via brute force.

Or we could keep this to 1 on 1 scenarios to avoid going in circles on this.


I meant for the Launch Item / Alchemists Fire to be separate from the horse buying, since you have a bunch of range at that point and hopefully won't need the horse.

Ok, there are ways around that of course. (His own tower shield, simply hiding, etc...)


You don't need to cast spells holding it. Drop it (free action), cast stuff when you feel like it.

Loosing a shield is a move action. So if he can't move into position then do that


How do you burn stone? And the Wizard won't starve, he's in his Mage's Guild where there are methods of communication. Ever done "secret knocks" as a kid? Works just as well. And "what's the password". "There is no password". "Of course you're correct". Door stays shut.

"What's the password?"
"There is no password."
"Of course you're correct."
"Dingleberries"

Door opens. Also - Divinations.

Rooves and other parts of stone towers (windows, furnishings, joins) are made of thatch or wood typical. Most flammable.

Which one?

Comprehend Languages: You understand all spoken and written languages.
Detect Secret Doors: Reveals hidden doors within 60 ft.
Detect Undead: Reveals undead within 60 ft.
Identify M: Determines properties of magic item.
True Strike: +20 on your next attack roll.



A Ranged build might have a chance, but then again, if you want a Ranged build, you probably wouldn't pick Fighter (but Ranger or something).
Also note how expensive bows are compared to melee weapons, so a 1st level Fighter will probably not even be able to afford a bow, and absolutely not a composite longbow with his Str rating.

Normally, a Fighter has to close in, and even if he tries a Charge, Wizard can just Abrupt Jaunt out of harm's way.
Wizard' turns: Colour Spray or Sleep. Note the long range Sleep has. DC ~15-18 vs the Fighter's Will Save of +/-0. DC16 is reasonable, so that's a 75% chance to end the fight right there.
If the Fighter survives this, he can try to hit the Wizard again, but he will just Jaunt away because he can do this 4 times per day.

Now the Wizard still has three spell slots left; two from high Int / Spellcasting Prodigy, and one specialist Conjuration slot. Maybe he has prepped Colour Spray again.

For lulz, his Conj slot could be Mount, so if the Fighter succeeds absolutely every Save the Wiz throws at him, the Wiz just summons a horse and rides away, to live and fight another day.

The total odds for the Fighter to win this battle are the same as those to do all of the following successfully
1. go first
2. hit the Wizard with a ranged attack
3. for enough damage to knock him into the negatives.

Winning Initiative is very roughly a 50-50 chance; hitting the Wizard at range is another 50-50, and doing sufficient damage (6 points) is about 37% --> 9,3%.

Note that I'm not optimizing either of these characters for this dueling thing; both are supposed to be normal adventurers that you might see in everyday play.

Crafting a bow is cheap. A Fighter can always afford a bow if they want one.

If we want typical characters, why not just use the ones presented in the PHB?


Given that some strategies that are being floated around rely on a familiar, it's worth noting that it costs 100 gp to summon one, and the wizards average wealth at first level is only 75 gp.

Not that there aren't other strategies the wizard can employ.

Good point, I had forgotten that, no need to address a familiar then.

[Firechanter]

I was actually thinking of a smart fighter, so with his greater starting wealth he could hire mercenaries (1sp per day), say 1000 of them, and just raid the tower via brute force.

Mercenaries cost _at least_ 3SP/day, even as per PHB. And what makes you think you can hire them by the day? Normally they will want a months pay up front.


Crafting a bow is cheap. A Fighter can always afford a bow if they want one.


Cool, then the Fighter will still be busy whittling away at a stick for weeks after the game started when the Wizard comes in and smokes him. :smalltongue:


If we want typical characters, why not just use the ones presented in the PHB?


Since when are these gimps representative of actual play?

[Eldan]

Well, then. If the wizard hides in his house, the fighter can just walk away. And then we're even.

Since the fighter has a lower starting age, the wizard will probably die first. Problem solved! :smalltongue:
Yes, I know about methods for immortality, levelling up, templates and that the fighter will probably die in a fight.

[Vogonjeltz]

Mercenaries cost _at least_ 3SP/day, even as per PHB. And what makes you think you can hire them by the day? Normally they will want a months pay up front.

Cool, then the Fighter will still be busy whittling away at a stick for weeks after the game started when the Wizard comes in and smokes him. :smalltongue:

Since when are these gimps representative of actual play?

Forgive me, he can hire a mere 300 Mercs for the day.

I see nothing about hires being monthly on the SRD.

The fighter starts at least 1 year before the Wizard, so he can smoke the wizard while he's still a mere apprentice.

Nothing mentioned thus far even remotely resembles play of 1st level characters that I've seen.

[Vhaidara]

The fighter starts at least 1 year before the Wizard, so he can smoke the wizard while he's still a mere apprentice.

You see, when I posted the other thread, I was hoping to avoid repeats of things like this argument.

[Vogonjeltz]

You see, when I posted the other thread, I was hoping to avoid repeats of things like this argument.

I only mentioned it because he tried to claim there would be some advantage based on crafting times.

[dextercorvia]

I only mentioned it because he tried to claim there would be some advantage based on crafting times.

But you are allowing the Fighter WBL abuse if he can craft his items before starting the game. So, for every day the Fighter spent crafting that bow, lets assume the Wizard sold his services casting all his spells per day (casting Mending, or Amanuensis, or something similar). Who has the WBL advantage now?

[Vogonjeltz]

But you are allowing the Fighter WBL abuse if he can craft his items before starting the game. So, for every day the Fighter spent crafting that bow, lets assume the Wizard sold his services casting all his spells per day (casting Mending, or Amanuensis, or something similar). Who has the WBL advantage now?

How is using defined skills abuse?

The PCs can certainly purchase services from NPCs, or use the profession skill on a weekly basis.

There are no rules at all for the PC selling their services, that's DM imagination territory.

[eggynack]

How is using defined skills abuse?

It's not abuse if you use them during the game. When you start the game, at level one, you get starting gold. That's it. You can take that starting gold in the form of items, if you like. What you can't do is take that gold in the form of more items than you can pay for out of the gold you've removed from your starting gold. If you want to craft something, you basically need to take the starting gold, begin the game, and start crafting. Otherwise, the actual cost of the item, rather than the crafting price, is factored into starting gold.

Edit: To put it more succinctly, the starting gold rules just don't give you the ability to craft stuff.

[Vogonjeltz]

It's not abuse if you use them during the game. When you start the game, at level one, you get starting gold. That's it. You can take that starting gold in the form of items, if you like. What you can't do is take that gold in the form of more items than you can pay for out of the gold you've removed from your starting gold. If you want to craft something, you basically need to take the starting gold, begin the game, and start crafting. Otherwise, the actual cost of the item, rather than the crafting price, is factored into starting gold.

Edit: To put it more succinctly, the starting gold rules just don't give you the ability to craft stuff.

The starting gold is representative of the items each character has, it's not actually a big pile of cash with which they go shopping. If the starting skills are enough to craft their own weapons than that is fair play.

[FidgetySquirrel]

How has this thread gone from 'Which class wins at level 1?' to 'Can you use craft skills with your starting wealth to get items cheaper before the game begins?' Isn't the real issue here that in most circumstances, with most equipment and spell prep, in most terrain, and with most builds, the wizard will generally beat the fighter? First level wealth isn't even a factor, here, wizards are more versatile, and have more means at their disposal to handle the encounter in more varied circumstances. We can't just assume the fighter gets the most favorable situation possible, watch it win a majority of the time, and then marvel at how powerful the level 1 fighter is, because that's not how this works.

And no WBL crafting shenanigans, otherwise the wizard makes money casting spells the whole time-1 day and then gets a familiar. A poisonous viper familiar hiding in the grass can do more damage to a fighter with a crap spot mod than you might think...

[Story]

Nothing mentioned thus far even remotely resembles play of 1st level characters that I've seen.

I haven't seen any real play of first level characters since it's more common to start at level 3. But Abrupt Jaunt, Sleep, and Color Spray are all common tactics used in real play.

[eggynack]

The starting gold is representative of the items each character has, it's not actually a big pile of cash with which they go shopping. If the starting skills are enough to craft their own weapons than that is fair play.
That's the point. It's an abstraction. That means that you can't get extra money. Just like you can't use the item given as gift method of starting gold use to pick up items for free, so too can you not use crafting to get half price stuff. You're not actually going out with a big pile of cash, but by the same token, it's completely irrelevant how you come by your items. They just have one static value, the one written in the book, no matter how you get them.

[Firechanter]

The starting gold is representative of the items each character has, it's not actually a big pile of cash with which they go shopping.

Exactly. That's the point.


If the starting skills are enough to craft their own weapons than that is fair play.

Do you even realize how you are contradicting yourself?

BTW: if you hire 300 Mercs for a day, then for a day you get them. Where do you want to use them? Against the city that hosts them? Against a town in the immediate area, which would be in the same domain and likewise result in them getting kicked out of that domain? Mercs are not like cabs, which start the meter when they arrive at your door. They need to be paid from the moment they leave their base of operations.

[Jormengand]

Could the wizard not use his fell drain sonic snap trick on one of the mercs and watch an army of 300 wights slowly assemble?

Or rather, run away from the suddenly apparent army of wights, because he can run faster than the mercs even if any do chase after him.

Then he can find out where the damn fighter is, and... honestly, just hit him with a morningstar until he goes away. He's completely unarmed and unarmoured, so...

Or, y'know, just turn him into a wight too. Might as well make it 301.

[Vogonjeltz]

Nothing mentioned thus far even remotely resembles play of 1st level characters that I've seen.

I haven't seen any real play of first level characters since it's more common to start at level 3. But Abrupt Jaunt, Sleep, and Color Spray are all common tactics used in real play.

Oh you did a statistical analysis with enough certainty to proclaim those methods as common? I look forward to reviewing your methodology. Where is it posted?


That's the point. It's an abstraction. That means that you can't get extra money. Just like you can't use the item given as gift method of starting gold use to pick up items for free, so too can you not use crafting to get half price stuff. You're not actually going out with a big pile of cash, but by the same token, it's completely irrelevant how you come by your items. They just have one static value, the one written in the book, no matter how you get them.

It's not extra money, it's using the funds more efficiently. If the level 1 wizard had XP I wouldn't begrudge them having scribed scrolls.


Exactly. That's the point.

Do you even realize how you are contradicting yourself?

BTW: if you hire 300 Mercs for a day, then for a day you get them. Where do you want to use them? Against the city that hosts them? Against a town in the immediate area, which would be in the same domain and likewise result in them getting kicked out of that domain? Mercs are not like cabs, which start the meter when they arrive at your door. They need to be paid from the moment they leave their base of operations.

I didn't contradict myself.

And you're right, mercenaries aren't like cabs, you don't start paying them wherever they happen to be, you can hire them to be somewhere for a day, travel expenses are their problem.

Not that it matters, this was just a response to whoever said the wizard could hire 3 or 4 centaurs.

[Vhaidara]

It's not extra money, it's using the funds more efficiently. If the level 1 wizard had XP I wouldn't begrudge them having scribed scrolls.

Except that it completely invalidates the starting gold. After all, the wizard, being smarter (you may be using a smart fighter, but I doubt he has an 18 Int) will simply us 1 gold to make 3 gold, and buy himself epic level gear at level 1.

[Vogonjeltz]

Except that it completely invalidates the starting gold. After all, the wizard, being smarter (you may be using a smart fighter, but I doubt he has an 18 Int) will simply us 1 gold to make 3 gold, and buy himself epic level gear at level 1.

How does that invalidate it? All classes get craft as a class skill. Nobody said they can sell the items they make for creation. (Although they could try once the game begins *, but of course it's way more efficient to just go adventuring.)

[Firechanter]

And you're right, mercenaries aren't like cabs, you don't start paying them wherever they happen to be, you can hire them to be somewhere for a day, travel expenses are their problem.

Maybe you don't know how cabs work. If you are at home and need to get somewhere, and call a cab, it will come to your driveway and pick you up. You pay from the moment that you enter the cab; you don't pay for the driver's expense to get to your door (because that's figured into the fare).

Mercenaries do NOT work that way. They have a base of operations somewhere. You can hire them, but you have to start paying them the day they set foot out of their base. If your intended target is two weeks away from their base, you can consider yourself very lucky if they charge you only 2 weeks (to get there) and not another 2 to get back home, _and_ not decide to help themselves to whatever spoils you might have gained by employing them.
Sure, you can try offering them to come to the place at their own expense, then get paid by you to fight for a day, then go home again. They will simply and flat-out refuse, or they will take everything you have gained. They are not in this business to run a loss.

BTW, historically, Mercs (in the renaissance and baroque eras) were not only hired and paid by the month, they had a clause in their contract that every engagement starts a new salary month. So having them march anywhere would require you to pay them at least for a month, then actually fighting would rack another full month on the bill.
Not saying that Mercs must be handled the historical way in D&D, just saying that the handling I first described (you pay from the point they leave their base to the point they return) is actually a good deal for the employer.


Not that it matters, this was just a response to whoever said the wizard could hire 3 or 4 centaurs.

I missed that, but of course the same implications would also apply if you tried to hire anything else from Centaurs to planewalking constructs (I forget their name).

[Vogonjeltz]

Maybe you don't know how cabs work. If you are at home and need to get somewhere, and call a cab, it will come to your driveway and pick you up. You pay from the moment that you enter the cab; you don't pay for the driver's expense to get to your door (because that's figured into the fare).

Mercenaries do NOT work that way. They have a base of operations somewhere. You can hire them, but you have to start paying them the day they set foot out of their base. If your intended target is two weeks away from their base, you can consider yourself very lucky if they charge you only 2 weeks (to get there) and not another 2 to get back home, _and_ not decide to help themselves to whatever spoils you might have gained by employing them.
Sure, you can try offering them to come to the place at their own expense, then get paid by you to fight for a day, then go home again. They will simply and flat-out refuse, or they will take everything you have gained. They are not in this business to run a loss.

BTW, historically, Mercs (in the renaissance and baroque eras) were not only hired and paid by the month, they had a clause in their contract that every engagement starts a new salary month. So having them march anywhere would require you to pay them at least for a month, then actually fighting would rack another full month on the bill.
Not saying that Mercs must be handled the historical way in D&D, just saying that the handling I first described (you pay from the point they leave their base to the point they return) is actually a good deal for the employer.



I missed that, but of course the same implications would also apply if you tried to hire anything else from Centaurs to planewalking constructs (I forget their name).

Do you have a basis in the books for the claim about merc pay schedules, or is it just your gut feeling?

From what I can see of the rules, there's nothing to say they can't just be hired on the basis of a day of work. Being there to do the work to get paid is their problem (similar to construction work).

*fair enough on the historical version/equal application to centaurs.

[Vaz]

I wouldn't call risking life and limb going adventuring as more efficient.

[Segev]

If the goal is to discuss "actual play," then the stereotype is not fighter vs wizard, but the effectiveness and durability of the two classes in a standard party. Under those conditions, it is assumed that there are other perty members, including the cleric.

The standard adventuring day is actually supposed to be 3-5 CR-appropriate encounters. The wizard will win 1-2 of these, assuming the save-or-lose spells one-shot whole encounters about 20% of the time. Given the number of things in his AOEs, and therefore the number of saves being made, that is actually slightly generous for entire encounters falling to them.

The wizard, too, must contend with his immediate fragility. He is in nigh-constant danger of one hit dropping him. The fighter can afford a hit or two. Yes, abrupt jaunt helps, but that is very build-specific and doesn't "win" if there is more than one attacker.

The fighter may be out after one encounter without healing, but the standard assumption is that there is healing (a cleric, usually). Because the fighter can last a fight without in-fight healing, usually, the cleric just patches him up between fights.

The reason fighters seem more powerful in comparison to wizards at low levels is that they are not as at risk and have nearly the one-shot capacity.

[Story]

The reason fighters seem more powerful in comparison to wizards at low levels is that they are not as at risk and have nearly the one-shot capacity.

That and the fact that they're assumed to have a Tier 1 class supporting them. Also, the stereotypes are based on low op play.

Oh you did a statistical analysis with enough certainty to proclaim those methods as common? I look forward to reviewing your methodology. Where is it posted?


Seeing as you were arguing from purely anecdotal evidence, I'm not sure what you're complaining about.

[Firechanter]

Do you have a basis in the books for the claim about merc pay schedules, or is it just your gut feeling?

From what I can see of the rules, there's nothing to say they can't just be hired on the basis of a day of work. Being there to do the work to get paid is their problem (similar to construction work).

I call it plain logic. Nobody in their right might would accept to hike through the countryside for let's say two weeks for the chance to earn a single day's wages. Especially not when the pay you offer is so low that they'd need that income _daily_ to survive. At that point the mercs would be literally (!) 100 times better off if they just made weekly Craft:Basketweaving checks and call it a day, instead of risking life and limb for a stingy would-be employer.
If mercs' fees only applied during the actual operation, the daily cost would have to be _much_ higher, more like 5-10GP per day per Hit Die, to cover their overhead cost.
If you disagree with that, I got a job offer for you...

Arms&Equipment Guide gives some rules and guidelines for Mercenaries. One interesting point in that calculation is that either you have to outfit the Mercs out of your own pocket, or the mercs in question must be of sufficient level to afford their own gear by NPC WBL. Higher level hirelings have higher rates, of course.

[Vogonjeltz]

I wouldn't call risking life and limb going adventuring as more efficient.

That means danger, not efficiency.

[Vaz]

Maximum productivity with minimum waste effort.

If you die, you don't produce anything.

[AMFV]

Maximum productivity with minimum waste effort.

If you die, you don't produce anything.

High quality worn feed.

[Segev]

The reason fighters seem more powerful in comparison to wizards at low levels is that they are not as at risk and have nearly the one-shot capacity.

That and the fact that they're assumed to have a Tier 1 class supporting them.
Eh, this argument is less convincing than it sounds. You could have a healer (definitely NOT tier 1) backing them and it would achieve the same result. The point here is that the fighter, with the assumption that healing is available 2-3 times a day, is going to be the more durable class. The wizard, with the same available healing, is going to still be feeling like he's at risk every fight (unless he can successfully stay at range).


Also, the stereotypes are based on low op play.Sure. But the level of optimization I outlined is actually pretty typical in most games I've seen. Anecdotal, sure, but I've rarely seen games reach even the mid-high optimization tiers. Mid-op is more usual, if only because of the array of players that tend to be involved.

And, even high-op, the level 1-2 party is going to have the wizard be vulnerable if more than one foe attacks him at a time. "But that's the fighter's job; to keep them off of him!" you might say. To which I answer, "Precisely."

It's only once out of low-levels that the wizard starts to be truly able to handle himself without some sort of meat shield, and brings enough firepower to handle the full assumed adventuring day without the consistency of the combat-types to back it up.

[Eldariel]

And, even high-op, the level 1-2 party is going to have the wizard be vulnerable if more than one foe attacks him at a time. "But that's the fighter's job; to keep them off of him!" you might say. To which I answer, "Precisely."

It's only once out of low-levels that the wizard starts to be truly able to handle himself without some sort of meat shield, and brings enough firepower to handle the full assumed adventuring day without the consistency of the combat-types to back it up.

Honestly, I wouldn't want neither my level 1 Fighter nor Wizard in melee. Much rather use hirelings, animal companions or whatever to tank for you but fighting the fight where 1 lucky crit can kill anyone feels awfully risky. Level 3-4 I'd let Fighters melee but level 1, much rather a Riding Dog or some such. Fighters can use bows and polearms to try to stay a bit safer.

[Story]

Sure. But the level of optimization I outlined is actually pretty typical in most games I've seen. Anecdotal, sure, but I've rarely seen games reach even the mid-high optimization tiers. Mid-op is more usual, if only because of the array of players that tend to be involved.

The games I've seen have all been higher OP. See the wonders of ancedotes?

Eh, this argument is less convincing than it sounds. You could have a healer (definitely NOT tier 1) backing them and it would achieve the same result.

But now you're using two characters to do the job of one druid's class feature. Wizard + Wizard > Fighter + Healer.

Anyway, you can build a Wizard to solo multiple encounters at level 1. You can build a Wizard that holds their own in melee if you want to. It's just that this is rarely done in practice because most people don't play a single character party at level 1.

[Segev]

most people don't play a single character party at level 1.

And you make my point for me.

[Anlashok]

And you make my point for me.

Er. No he didn't. He said that it's not a common mode of play, not that you're right and that the wizard needs to rely on his fighter buddy.

[Story]

Yeah, a Wizard can solo 4 level appropriate encounters a day at level 1, it's just that this isn't a situation that comes up in practice.

[Segev]

Er. No he didn't. He said that it's not a common mode of play, not that you're right and that the wizard needs to rely on his fighter buddy.

Seeing as my point was that, under the common mode of play, the fighter appears to be stronger than the wizard at 1st level because he can mix it up and be in less apparent danger while dishing out effective enemy-negation, yes, he made my point for me. My point centered around common mode(s) of play.

[eggynack]

It's not extra money, it's using the funds more efficiently. If the level 1 wizard had XP I wouldn't begrudge them having scribed scrolls.

Except you're not allowed to use the funds more efficiently. It matters not one whit how you come by your bow. It counts against your starting gold by the same amount. That's just how starting gold works. It doesn't care whether you got your bow from a kindly old uncle, or if you found it in the woods, or if you bought it from some weird guy, or if you crafted it by your own hand. It counts as the same amount of money no matter what. Once you're actually in the game, money can start counting for more or less, so if you want to craft stuff, that's your time to do so, but you just don't have that luxury here.

[Segev]

Except you're not allowed to use the funds more efficiently. It matters not one whit how you come by your bow. It counts against your starting gold by the same amount. That's just how starting gold works. It doesn't care whether you got your bow from a kindly old uncle, or if you found it in the woods, or if you bought it from some weird guy, or if you crafted it by your own hand. It counts as the same amount of money no matter what. Once you're actually in the game, money can start counting for more or less, so if you want to craft stuff, that's your time to do so, but you just don't have that luxury here.

Eh, no. It's about how you choose to spend your entire character build suite of resources. If you invest in the Craft skill, you've spent skill points to spend fewer gp.

[eggynack]

Eh, no. It's about how you choose to spend your entire character build suite of resources. If you invest in the Craft skill, you've spent skill points to spend fewer gp.
It would work that way if it worked that way, and it'd make sense for it to work that way, but it just doesn't work that way. If you invest in the craft skill, then you've spent skill points to spend fewer GP after the game has already started. It doesn't let you bypass starting gold, because as I mentioned, starting gold doesn't care how you got the item. It just charges you.

[Synar]

No. Absolute best case is wizard with only Sleep and Elf fighter.

I'm pretty sure sleep still work against elfs (I think it is specified in the spell description).

EDIT:Well I can find it nowhere in the srd, but I'm sure it was written in my edition of the phb. I rember being frustrated by this fact. Or is it all a lie?

[Zombulian]

This has probably already been pointed out, but a Human Wizard with Easy Metamagic and Fell Drain on Sonic Snap will auto win if they win initiative.

[Karnith]

I'm pretty sure sleep still work against elfs (I think it is specified in the spell description).
Nope (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/sleep.htm), and Elves (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/races.htm#elves) are called out as being immune to magic sleep effects.

This has probably already been pointed out, but a Human Wizard with Easy Metamagic and Fell Drain on Sonic Snap will auto win if they win initiative.
It has. I believe that the counterpoint (in general, not to Fell Drain Sonic Snap specifically) was "how does the Wizard close in to a 25-ft. range against a ranged Fighter?"

[Story]

Seeing as my point was that, under the common mode of play, the fighter appears to be stronger than the wizard at 1st level because he can mix it up and be in less apparent danger while dishing out effective enemy-negation, yes, he made my point for me. My point centered around common mode(s) of play.

Except that you haven't proven your point at all. All you've done is argue anecdote vs anecdote. You criticized me for using the word common and then turned around and used it yourself. It's hard to even figure out what you're saying when you keep shifting the goalposts.

Anyway, if you ever want to put your money where your mouth is and so a same game test, I'd be willing to give it a try.

[Zombulian]

Nope (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/sleep.htm), and Elves (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/races.htm#elves) are called out as being immune to magic sleep effects.

It has. I believe that the counterpoint (in general, not to Fell Drain Sonic Snap specifically) was "how does the Wizard close in to a 25-ft. range against a ranged Fighter?"

Fair enough I suppose. Abrupt Jaunt + Moving 30ft should be okay for most situations I would think though, a Wizard shouldn't be fighting in an open field larger than that at level 1 anyway.

[Somensjev]

Anyway, if you ever want to put your money where your mouth is and so a same game test, I'd be willing to give it a try.

i'm willing to be a judge of sorts? we could have like a council of neutral observers who decide on anything that needs DM interpretation/approval

[Vogonjeltz]

Maximum productivity with minimum waste effort.

If you die, you don't produce anything.

It's more likely to assume you will succeed. Confidence is a greater indicator of success than competence.


It would work that way if it worked that way, and it'd make sense for it to work that way, but it just doesn't work that way. If you invest in the craft skill, then you've spent skill points to spend fewer GP after the game has already started. It doesn't let you bypass starting gold, because as I mentioned, starting gold doesn't care how you got the item. It just charges you.

That is actually exactly how it works. There are no restrictions on how that gold is allocated. Neither fluff nor mechanical.

[Segev]

Seeing as my point was that, under the common mode of play, the fighter appears to be stronger than the wizard at 1st level because he can mix it up and be in less apparent danger while dishing out effective enemy-negation, yes, he made my point for me. My point centered around common mode(s) of play.

Except that you haven't proven your point at all. All you've done is argue anecdote vs anecdote. You criticized me for using the word common and then turned around and used it yourself. It's hard to even figure out what you're saying when you keep shifting the goalposts.

Anyway, if you ever want to put your money where your mouth is and so a same game test, I'd be willing to give it a try.

Irrelevant tests prove nothing.

You stated that the common mode of play does not involve solo players, but parties. My point was that, in the common mode of play, fighters appear to be stronger and more durable than wizards at 1st level because of the synergies of the fighter's real durability and the party's interaction therewith. You then proceeded to use anecdotes which you stated were not the common mode of play to try to disprove my point. Given that we agree that your version is not the common mode of play, and I was stating why the appearance of first level fighters being more durable/stronger than first level wizards in the common mode of play exists, you have yet to actually address anything relevant to my point.

I am in no way trying to argue that fighters ARE stronger. I'm explaining why they feel that way at low level in the common/expected mode of play. As you've agreed with my take on what that "common mode of play" typically is, and that all your counterexamples are not the common mode of play, you're either trying to argue against something I'm not saying (that fighters are objectively stronger than wizards at first level, or something), or you're not actually addressing anything I'm saying and instead are saying "because elephants are gray, dollar bills are depreciating."

[eggynack]

That is actually exactly how it works. There are no restrictions on how that gold is allocated. Neither fluff nor mechanical.
You've given no evidence of this. All indication shows that the method of acquiring an item is irrelevant, with only the end price being relevant to what is removed from starting gold. You can allocate the gold however you like, but crafting does not apparently lower price.

[Story]

My point was that, in the common mode of play, fighters appear to be stronger and more durable than wizards at 1st level because of the synergies of the fighter's real durability and the party's interaction therewith.

Except that even in a full party scenario, Wizards are better than Fighters. 4 Wizards is an entirely viable party, and I think it's been done before here.

The real reason that Fighters appear better is because people usually only look at damage dealt, and don't notice the god casters backing them up or the out of combat utility.


Anyway, if you're not actually arguing that Fighters are better, than I guess we've got everything cleared up.

[Agincourt]

You've given no evidence of this. All indication shows that the method of acquiring an item is irrelevant, with only the end price being relevant to what is removed from starting gold. You can allocate the gold however you like, but crafting does not apparently lower price.

The rules neither specifically disallow crafting nor specifically allow it. It looks like a quintessential DMs call with no RAW either way.

[Vaz]

It's more likely to assume you will succeed. Confidence is a greater indicator of success than competence.
As a L1 Wizard, you may be facing up to CR+8 encounters on a 5% chance. As the typical party is assumed to be 4 person, you are CR1/4, so you may be facing CR8 opponents.

Victory is not assumed. And, you mentioned efficiency for least amount of effort. Killing one monster to get 43490432049 trillion gold is the most efficient, so go and kill that God over there. See my point?

[Story]

The Level 3 party is what, CR 5? There aren't rules for scaling challenges to a one character party, but rating it as a CR+8 challenge seems reasonable.

Though I'm not sure where you got +8 from anyway. You're definitely not supposed to be fighting such high CRed challenges in normal play.

[eggynack]

The rules neither specifically disallow crafting nor specifically allow it. It looks like a quintessential DMs call with no RAW either way.
The rules don't need to allow or disallow crafting. The method of item acquisition is stated to have no impact on price. You can craft as much as you want, and it won't make a difference.

[Agincourt]

The rules don't need to allow or disallow crafting. The method of item acquisition is stated to have no impact on price. You can craft as much as you want, and it won't make a difference.

The rules do not explicitly say that. Your interpretation is a reasonable inference to draw, but then so is Vogonjeltz's interpretation. Whichever interpretation a DM chooses, I would be fine with if I were in a game, but the rules are not as clear as you are arguing.

[eggynack]

The rules do not explicitly say that. Your interpretation is a reasonable inference to draw, but then so is Vogonjeltz's interpretation. Whichever interpretation a DM chooses, I would be fine with if I were in a game, but the rules are not as clear as you are arguing.
What the rules do explicitly say is that you can be gifted an item, and it still counts against your starting gold. This is despite the fact that an item gifted to you is free from the perspective of the recipient. This means that method of acquisition is irrelevant to impact on starting gold. There doesn't really seem to be any room for interpretation here. Items cost what they cost.

[Agincourt]

What the rules do explicitly say is that you can be gifted an item, and it still counts against your starting gold. This is despite the fact that an item gifted to you is free from the perspective of the recipient. This means that method of acquisition is irrelevant to impact on starting gold. There doesn't really seem to be any room for interpretation here. Items cost what they cost.

Of course there is room for interpretation. There is no restriction on what a PC does with their starting wealth. If a PC wants to buy artisans tools and raw materials to craft a bow, that is acceptable. Whether the DM decides the PC can craft the bow before session 1 or during session 1 only changes the situation slightly.

[eggynack]

Of course there is room for interpretation. There is no restriction on what a PC does with their starting wealth. If a PC wants to buy artisans tools and raw materials to craft a bow, that is acceptable. Whether the DM decides the PC can craft the bow before session 1 or during session 1 only changes the situation slightly.
There is no restriction on what you do with your starting wealth, but there is equally zero indication that you ever pay any price aside from the price of the item. You can craft the bow as much as you want, but it's meaningless.

Edit: Basically, what the rules explicitly say is that you purchase the items you want. Aside from accepting a starting package, this purchasing is the only way to use starting gold. You're not literally purchasing the items, but that is absolutely and unequivocally the way the items are priced. Whether you craft or receive or whatever, you are still "buying" the item. That's all there is to it.

[Agincourt]

There is no restriction on what you do with your starting wealth, but there is equally zero indication that you ever pay any price aside from the price of the item. You can craft the bow as much as you want, but it's meaningless.

Edit: Basically, what the rules explicitly say is that you purchase the items you want. Aside from accepting a starting package, this purchasing is the only way to use starting gold. You're not literally purchasing the items, but that is absolutely and unequivocally the way the items are priced. Whether you craft or receive or whatever, you are still "buying" the item. That's all there is to it.

There are plenty of rule for making items yourself all through the PHB. The costs for artisans tools and raw materials to craft are explicitly listed in the PHB. A player can buy those items. The only thing that functionally changes is whether the DM says you can craft the bow before session 1, or the DM says you have to wait.

Even if a PC has to wait until session 1 to craft the bow, there is an unanswerable question of what exactly that will affect. It will be entirely campaign dependent of whether or not that changes anything. One can easily imagine a campaign wherein the DM says, okay, you craft your bow -- now is your character ready to be in the tavern so you meet the other PCs? Good? Good! Let's start.

[Taelas]

Well, since you are not explicitly required to use your starting wealth at all, you could conceivably spend the first couple of weeks just crafting, if you wanted to (and the situation allows it).

In your background, you temporarily act as your own DM, in that you determine how your character arrives at the moment of introduction. So it makes sense to curb abuse by stating starting wealth covers everything including "gifts". I agree that you can't spend your starting wealth more efficiently than straight up buying the items, but I am not sure there's much point in trying to stop the crafting of mundane items.

[Vhaidara]

Here's why pregame crafting is a bad idea.

Enter Bortrun Goldhand, a level 1 dwarven fighter. Technically this works better with elves, but it fits better with dwarves. According to the PHB, the minimum age for a dwarf fighter is 45. So, Bortrun is starting with 4 ranks in Craft(goldsmith). That's dwarfy and flavorful, right? Well, the raw components of 1gp are 3.333333 (repeating of course) silver pieces, or, for convenience, for 3gp it is 1gp. Bortrun is a smart fighter, with a 14 Int. Combined with his dwarf bonus to metal-related craft checks and his 4 ranks, he has +8. He proceeds to have spent all of his time making gold pieces through crafting. Now, instead of 150 starting gold, he has 450 to work with. So he does it again, bringing himself up to 1350. And again. And again. And eventually, he shows up with his +5 vorpal dwarven waraxe at level 1.

[Agincourt]

Here's why pregame crafting is a bad idea.

Enter Bortrun Goldhand, a level 1 dwarven fighter. Technically this works better with elves, but it fits better with dwarves. According to the PHB, the minimum age for a dwarf fighter is 45. So, Bortrun is starting with 4 ranks in Craft(goldsmith). That's dwarfy and flavorful, right? Well, the raw components of 1gp are 3.333333 (repeating of course) silver pieces, or, for convenience, for 3gp it is 1gp. Bortrun is a smart fighter, with a 14 Int. Combined with his dwarf bonus to metal-related craft checks and his 4 ranks, he has +8. He proceeds to have spent all of his time making gold pieces through crafting. Now, instead of 150 starting gold, he has 450 to work with. So he does it again, bringing himself up to 1350. And again. And again. And eventually, he shows up with his +5 vorpal dwarven waraxe at level 1.

This is just an argument against letting PCs craft coins. Whether the PC is 1st level, 5th level, or 15th level wouldn't change how problematic it is to let PCs craft coins.

No DC is listed for how difficult it is to craft coins (not in the PHB, at least). A DM is free to rule that is not possible. There are explicit rules for crafting a bow.

[dextercorvia]

There are also explicit rules for sell your services as a spellcaster. I maintain that for every day spent crafting that bow, the Wizard should be allowed to spend the same amount of Pregame WBL buffing time, selling his services. Who is going to come out ahead?

[eggynack]

There are plenty of rule for making items yourself all through the PHB. The costs for artisans tools and raw materials to craft are explicitly listed in the PHB. A player can buy those items. The only thing that functionally changes is whether the DM says you can craft the bow before session 1, or the DM says you have to wait.

Even if a PC has to wait until session 1 to craft the bow, there is an unanswerable question of what exactly that will affect. It will be entirely campaign dependent of whether or not that changes anything. One can easily imagine a campaign wherein the DM says, okay, you craft your bow -- now is your character ready to be in the tavern so you meet the other PCs? Good? Good! Let's start.
Sure. After the game starts, craft all you want. You can also assert any advantages made possible by doing so. However, you can't necessarily count on being given this time during the campaign, under the assumption that the game starts when the game starts.

[Agincourt]

There are also explicit rules for sell your services as a spellcaster. I maintain that for every day spent crafting that bow, the Wizard should be allowed to spend the same amount of Pregame WBL buffing time, selling his services. Who is going to come out ahead?

There are rules for buying spellcasting services. There are no rules for determining whether or not anyone wants to buy a PCs spellcasting services.

[dextercorvia]

There are rules for buying spellcasting services. There are no rules for determining whether or not anyone wants to buy a PCs spellcasting services.

I'm pretty sure that the Fighter wouldn't mind paying for a Magecraft spell, otherwise there is a good chance he'll fail at crafting that bow.

[Agincourt]

I'm pretty sure that the Fighter wouldn't mind paying for a Magecraft spell, otherwise there is a good chance he'll fail at crafting that bow.

If that were possible, that would be a great idea. Magecraft is a personal range spell.

I have never had a fighter or melee character craft their own weapon, but I am assuming anyone who does makes sure they have a high enough check to make failure unlikely. A PC with 4 ranks in Craft bowmaking and no intelligence bonus would lose the raw materials when crafting a regular bow on a roll of 3 or less on the D20. About two successful checks would be needed to make a shortbow and 4-5 to make a longbow. If the player is smart, they will only try this strategy for PCs with an intelligence bonus or some sort of racial bonus to Craft bowmaking.

[Vogonjeltz]

You've given no evidence of this. All indication shows that the method of acquiring an item is irrelevant, with only the end price being relevant to what is removed from starting gold. You can allocate the gold however you like, but crafting does not apparently lower price.

I don't have to prove a negative (an impossible feat). You must prove there is a restriction on how wealth is spent as you claimed.

[eggynack]

I don't have to prove a negative (an impossible feat). You must prove there is a restriction on how wealth is spent as you claimed.
Already have in another post. Any items obtained with starting gold are explicitly purchased, whether that's how you acquire the items or not. Whether crafted or purchased or gifted, you are still buying the item, and that is the price.

[georgie_leech]

Moving away from an increasingly silly direct combat/warfare scenario, and into general party viability, I think that Moldrake's School (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?332973-Moldrake-s-School-OOC-Group-A) of Arcana and Wizardry (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?333192-Moldrake-s-IC-A) is an interesting example. In it, a not particularly cutthroat (but impartial) DM designed a quick adventure (was going to be longer, but RL got in the way) that was balanced for a classic party of Fighter, Rogue, Cleric, and Wizard and tossed it against a group of four Wizards, who succeeded fairly handily at the task. They didn't abuse the 15 minute adventuring day, and succeeded at a variety of encounters, including combat encounters, a social encounter, a trap, and carrying excessive amounts of cheese.

[Vogonjeltz]

Sorry I missed the following.


As a L1 Wizard, you may be facing up to CR+8 encounters on a 5% chance. As the typical party is assumed to be 4 person, you are CR1/4, so you may be facing CR8 opponents.

Victory is not assumed. And, you mentioned efficiency for least amount of effort. Killing one monster to get 43490432049 trillion gold is the most efficient, so go and kill that God over there. See my point?

Efficiency in terms of time, which doesn't necessarily equate to effort. Being an adventurer is straight up more profitable than crafting as an individual. Probably because this here game is dungeons and dragons, not industries and markets.


Here's why pregame crafting is a bad idea.

Enter Bortrun Goldhand, a level 1 dwarven fighter. Technically this works better with elves, but it fits better with dwarves. According to the PHB, the minimum age for a dwarf fighter is 45. So, Bortrun is starting with 4 ranks in Craft(goldsmith). That's dwarfy and flavorful, right? Well, the raw components of 1gp are 3.333333 (repeating of course) silver pieces, or, for convenience, for 3gp it is 1gp. Bortrun is a smart fighter, with a 14 Int. Combined with his dwarf bonus to metal-related craft checks and his 4 ranks, he has +8. He proceeds to have spent all of his time making gold pieces through crafting. Now, instead of 150 starting gold, he has 450 to work with. So he does it again, bringing himself up to 1350. And again. And again. And eventually, he shows up with his +5 vorpal dwarven waraxe at level 1.

Gold coins aren't a crafted item. And goldsmithing is a skill to make things with gold in them, ie a gold trellis, or box, or doing gold leafing on chairs, etc...

[Vogonjeltz]

Already have in another post. Any items obtained with starting gold are explicitly purchased, whether that's how you acquire the items or not. Whether crafted or purchased or gifted, you are still buying the item, and that is the price.

So they purchased the crafting materials and made the item. Seeing as fighters start at least a year before basically all other classes, how is this such a problem?

[dextercorvia]

I don't have to prove a negative (an impossible feat). You must prove there is a restriction on how wealth is spent as you claimed.

Page 111 PHB.

The default is Starting Packages for each class, or "If you don't want to take the standard package for your character's class, you can instead purchase..."

There are two choices, take your starting package, or purchase with the money as an abstraction*. Crafting is not one of the options.

*"Note that buying beginning equipment this way is an abstraction. Your character doesn't walk into a store with handfuls of gold and buy every item one by one. Rather, these items may have come the character's way as gifts from family, ..., swag gained through duplicity, and so on.

The and so on covers crafting before game starts.

[eggynack]

So they purchased the crafting materials and made the item. Seeing as fighters start at least a year before basically all other classes, how is this such a problem?
If you made the item, and then started the game, then the cost accounted for is the cost of the item, because that's the item that your character has, and thus "purchased". Starting ages are utterly irrelevant, and it is similarly irrelevant how problematic this is. These are just the rules of the game.

[Vhaidara]

Seeing as fighters start at least a year before basically all other classes, how is this such a problem?

Excuse me? Barbarians, Rogues, and Sorcerers beg to differ. Bards, Paladins and Rangers beg to differ. All the classes with starting ages based off of those beg to differ. And what about racial variations? I go with an elf wizard. If we assume we were born in the same year, I win by reaching first level. Max human age is 110. Youngest elf age, for any class, is 114.

[Segev]

Excuse me? Barbarians, Rogues, and Sorcerers beg to differ. Bards, Paladins and Rangers beg to differ. All the classes with starting ages based off of those beg to differ. And what about racial variations? I go with an elf wizard. If we assume we were born in the same year, I win by reaching first level. Max human age is 110. Youngest elf age, for any class, is 114.

You may want to rethink this comparison. If you go with it, then the human wins hands-down, because he's level 1 almost a century before you are, and kills you before you're even apprenticed.

This is a very silly argument.

[Vhaidara]

You may want to rethink this comparison. If you go with it, then the human wins hands-down, because he's level 1 almost a century before you are, and kills you before you're even apprenticed.

This is a very silly argument.

He's the one who brought up starting ages. So unless he thinks his fighter is going to get away with going and slaughtering prepubescent elves, he has no right to using that argument.

[Segev]

He's the one who brought up starting ages. So unless he thinks his fighter is going to get away with going and slaughtering prepubescent elves, he has no right to using that argument.

If you're going to claim that it's okay to attack the other character at any stage, claiming it's not okay before some arbitrary point is moving the goalposts.

Alternatively, the 110-year-old human is now an epic-level character, having gone through multiple adventuring careers, and your elf is just now hitting first level.

Seriously, trying to play it this way is missing the point of the thread so badly as to make me wonder if this is satire.

[Vhaidara]

I never said anything about attacking. Also the 110 year old human is dead. Venerable is 70, +2d20 for maximum age.

The point I was making is that it is assumed that the PCs begin adventuring in the same year, not that they are born in the same year, and that, therefore, claiming that, because your fighter started a year earlier, he has a year to craft that the wizard doesn't get is complete horse puckey.

[Lans]

What about a no-save kill?

If we can boost the caster level high enough on magic missile, then there's no save, just die for the first level Fighter.

For example, assume I'm a Strongheart Halfling took 2 flaws. I take the feats (any metamagic feat), Sudden Maximize Spell, Iron Will, and Reserves of Strength. I take the traits Aggressive and Spellgifted: Evocation. I can cast magic missile at caster level 5, though I'm Dazed for 3 rounds thereafter. I hit and deal a guaranteed 15 damage. Unless that Fighter has a massively high amount of hit points, I just win. (Maybe he's a Human Fighter with Toughness twice, but I doubt it.)
Or he could take shape soulmeld and be able to operate at -9 minus 3*invested essentia. DM did that to us once with a bunch of rabble.



Alternatively, use sonic snap (a level 0 damaging spell with no save) and apply Fell Drain to it via metamagic cost reducers. For example, Metamagic School Focus: Evocation could work as an Evoker, as could Easy Metamagic. This sonic snap method requires the foe to be in Close range instead of Medium for magic missile but the principle is the same - an optimized (for level 1) no-save-Wizard-wins situation.


I think there is a way to get around this, but would be more fringe than the shape soulmeld and the madness build.


Azurin H&R Targeteer Fighter Shape soulmeld for rage claws, Willing Deformity from worshipping an elder evil, willing deformity madness, heart of nabassu and TWF feat from flaws. Dex to damage from Targeteer instead of a fighter feat. Starting wealth spent on 4 alchemists fires, sling, clubs, leather armor, long spear, 4 javelins.

Effective HP of 22+con, immune to mind influencing effects, Flasks for Shield+Mage Armor, can absorb a negative level, TWF for Abrupt Jaunt.

Edit added the name of the soulmeld, and want to say that a halfling would be a better choice trading 3hp for +2 to hit, +1 to ac, damage and initiative.

[Synar]

Well, the fighter can just buy be gifted the materials and tools with his starting wealth, and then craft his bow during the first session. He is not really taking party time away either, because crafting take so little out of character time. Sure, your DM could make you start in-media-res and never let you get any rest time, but... If you think a fighter that get a little time at the start of the session should be diffferent than the one that crafted it just before the session, there is like a break of the suspension of disbelief.

And about balance: the fighter had to invest skills in craft(bowying) and money in materials and tools and had to roll the dices, so why are you so desesperated to make it all even more pointless? Why can't you let it have one little nice thing, in which he had to invest? It is hardly game-breaking, you know, letting the ranged fighter start with a freaking bow.

[eggynack]

Well, the fighter can just buy be gifted the materials and tools with his starting wealth, and then craft his bow during the first session. He is not really taking party time away either, because crafting take so little out of character time. Sure, your DM could make you start in-media-res and never let you get any rest time, but... If you think a fighter that get a little time at the start of the session should be diffferent than the one that crafted it just before the session, there is like a break of the suspension of disbelief.
As I mentioned, go right ahead and craft in game. However, as people who aren't me have mentioned, expect the wizard to also take his time earning some cash. Sure, it might not be impossibly easy for the wizard to find a buyer for his abilities, but he has a lot of time to work with, and he can probably make way more money if he has anything like success. I also find it a bit ironic that anti-wizard folks are always citing the ever-looming power of time pressure, forcing his hand beyond the capacity of any rope trick to stop it, and now the fighter needs weeks of time to prepare. What if you have, I dunno, some kinda quest. Maybe the party wants to go on that quest, and they say, "Man, we'd make more money by just doing this than we would save by you taking bow making time. Just skip it and pick up something cheaper."


And about balance: the fighter had to invest skills in craft(bowying) and money in materials and tools and had to roll the dices, so why are you so desesperated to make it all even more pointless? Why can't you let it have one little nice thing, in which he had to invest? It is hardly game-breaking, you know, letting the ranged fighter start with a freaking bow.
In this case, I'm actually pretty apathetic about balance. This is a rules issue, and moreover, it's a rules issue in a competition between classes. You can't really favor the fighter with house rules while arguing that they'd be successful at beating up wizards. It's just not how it works.

[Vogonjeltz]

Well, the fighter can just buy be gifted the materials and tools with his starting wealth, and then craft his bow during the first session. He is not really taking party time away either, because crafting take so little out of character time. Sure, your DM could make you start in-media-res and never let you get any rest time, but... If you think a fighter that get a little time at the start of the session should be diffferent than the one that crafted it just before the session, there is like a break of the suspension of disbelief.

And about balance: the fighter had to invest skills in craft(bowying) and money in materials and tools and had to roll the dices, so why are you so desesperated to make it all even more pointless? Why can't you let it have one little nice thing, in which he had to invest? It is hardly game-breaking, you know, letting the ranged fighter start with a freaking bow.

The slippery slope fallacy of course. If they admitted that Fighters could do one nice thing, they'd have to admit when other nice things are possible. And we all know Fighters don't/can't/won't have nice things.

[eggynack]

The slippery slope fallacy of course. If they admitted that Fighters could do one nice thing, they'd have to admit when other nice things are possible. And we all know Fighters don't/can't/won't have nice things.
That doesn't really sound like an accurate summation of the arguments against this, but if you want to talk about slippery slopes, it may occur. The example of crafting money was brought up, but we need not go that far. Just consider, what exactly is stopping our enterprising fighter, once he's done crafting his bow, from selling it? What's stopping him from taking that money, picking up more materials, and crafting a second bow? What's stopping the fighter from doing that indefinitely, until he has enough money to break the game in half? Maybe you stop the fighter before utterly insane WBL, on the basis that he only has so much time before he begins adventuring, but he'd definitely start with far more money than the rest of the party, and the issue is exacerbated if we start talking about long lived races, who could take years crafting and selling bows before the game begins. It's just kinda silly, is the thing.

I obviously need not rely on this argument to claim that this shouldn't be allowed, because it isn't allowed within the rules, but if you want game breaking, then there it is. It's not even like this particularly favors the fighter, as the wizard has craft on his skill list as well, and will likely take it if this incentive exists. This just becomes an odd contest of who best can abuse insane starting gold. I mean, I'd have to suspect that you wouldn't want that, because it's meaningless, though I suppose it could be fun on a lark.

Edit: Also, do note that the slippery slope cited here isn't really a fallacy. This is just the way the game would seem to actually interact with the new rule you're arguing for, and rules don't stop moving forward just because of a speed bump like common sense or game balance. You'd probably need to put in some actual mechanism to stop this from working.

Double-edit: Incidentally, it looks like this plan would, in fact earn money. You'd earn it slowly, certainly, but you make the majig at a third of the price, and sell it at half, and the speed is irrelevant when this is happening during back-story.

[Vaz]

Sorry I missed the following.



Efficiency in terms of time, which doesn't necessarily equate to effort. Being an adventurer is straight up more profitable than crafting as an individual. Probably because this here game is dungeons and dragons, not industries and markets.
So as that L1 wizard, how do you kill that Hecatoncheires? Or kill Orcus?




Gold coins aren't a crafted item. And goldsmithing is a skill to make things with gold in them, ie a gold trellis, or box, or doing gold leafing on chairs, etc...
Craft [Minting].

Which still doesn't explain how the Wizard has Profession as a Class Skill, Craft, and Spellslots, which he can sell, compared to the fighters only ability to have one of those - Crafting.

[Firechanter]

I never said anything about attacking. Also the 110 year old human is dead. Venerable is 70, +2d20 for maximum age.

A successfull Epic- or near-Epic level Adventurer would probably have found ways around dying from old age. For example, becoming a Chosen of some deity typically brings the benefit of immortality (in the sense of "indefinite natural lifespan". The Simbul is a human with some 600 years on her back and still going strong.


The point I was making is that it is assumed that the PCs begin adventuring in the same year, not that they are born in the same year, and that, therefore, claiming that, because your fighter started a year earlier, he has a year to craft that the wizard doesn't get is complete horse puckey.

Now this, I think, we can all agree on.


Craft [Minting].

Coins are, by definition, worth their weight in whatever metal they are made of. You can't make 3 pounds of gold out of 1 pound. Before you start arguing about RAW permitting it, please take a step back and look at 1) all the seven-hundred and sixty-eight rules dysfunctions currently collected in the Index, and 2) how many things are not expressed by the rules at all because the authors just presumed a minimum amount of basic logic and common sense in the players.

[Stella]

The rules neither specifically disallow crafting nor specifically allow it. It looks like a quintessential DMs call with no RAW either way.No RAW either way? The Craft skill allows a player to spend days exercising that skill. How many days do you get to "play" before play even begins? Zero. You select your skills at character creation. How many points in Craft (whatever) or Profession (whatever) did your character have before it was created? Zero.

Your kind of logic would allow a player to start a 1st level character with thousands or millions of golds just by showing the GM a spreadsheet of their activities prior to the game start, along with Craft check rolls and items created using the Craft skill, or by exercising the Profession skill. Show me the DM who allows this and I will show you a doormat.

[Synar]

There are no rules for selling craft products or spell uses. And using craft or profession to earn money is quite different than using craft to allow you to have a single bow. Just like an artificer producing gear for himself and the party is fine but an artificer having settled in a sizeable city and opened a magic shop is probably not (or a fighter ruling over his lands and paying farmhands), because it is not what the game is about. We all know D&D magic + D&D economy = stupid, so using craft to make your own gear to make one single piece of gear is obvoiusly quite different than using it to make money. As bringing up earning money is the best way to destroy the suspension of disbelief (or just play with Tippy).

[eggynack]

There are no rules for selling craft products or spell uses. And using craft or profession to earn money is quite different than using craft to allow you to have a single bow. Just like an artificer producing gear for himself and the party is fine but an artificer having settled in a sizeable city and opened a magic shop is probably not (or a fighter ruling over his lands and paying farmhands), because it is not what the game is about. We all know D&D magic + D&D economy = stupid, so using craft to make your own gear to make one single piece of gear is obvoiusly quite different than using it to make money. As bringing up earning money is the best way to destroy the suspension of disbelief (or just play with Tippy).
The difference between earning money by your craft and making one bow is a difference of scale, rather than rules. This is a rules legal outcome of the houserule, and it is a houserule, that you've proposed. You asked how your majig could be game breaking, and here it is. It should be pretty obvious that a way to break the game is going to be at least a bit silly/stupid, or else it wouldn't be nearly so game breaking. That's the whole point, really. As for selling craft products, you can explicitly sell items for half their listed price, with the exception of trade goods, which go full price. The spell uses thing is admittedly a thing that only has rules for purchase, but it can be trivially extrapolated that if this thing can be bought, then it can also be sold. There very much is a set price for spell uses, and you need only find a buyer. A bit of a challenge, perhaps, but definitely not impossible, and reasonably supported by existing RAW.

In any case, this is all rather beside the point. The rules are not on your side, so the rules are not on your side. That's all there is to it. We can play some more silly extrapolation games, if you'd like, and I could probably go some more rounds of it, but it won't have any impact on this battle. If your fighter wants a bow, then he will pay full price for it, because that is what the rules say you do. He can theoretically craft during the campaign, but who's to say that our wizard won't go on a quest, and turn this into a level 1 fighter vs. level 2 or 3 wizard battle? A few weeks is a long time to an adventurer, after all.

[Somensjev]

There are no rules for selling craft products or spell uses. And using craft or profession to earn money is quite different than using craft to allow you to have a single bow. Just like an artificer producing gear for himself and the party is fine but an artificer having settled in a sizeable city and opened a magic shop is probably not (or a fighter ruling over his lands and paying farmhands), because it is not what the game is about. We all know D&D magic + D&D economy = stupid, so using craft to make your own gear to make one single piece of gear is obvoiusly quite different than using it to make money. As bringing up earning money is the best way to destroy the suspension of disbelief (or just play with Tippy).

firstly, i believe players can sell any item at half of it's retail price, which would include crafted items
secondly, using craft in game is perfectly fine, using it before the game is ridiculous, anyone could build anything
thirdly, how is having a single bow any different from having the money from selling a bow? they're worth the same amount, and can do the same things

[Lans]

Wanted to repost this

Build
Azurin H&R Targeteer Fighter with Shape soulmeld for rage claws, Willing Deformity from worshipping an elder evil, willing deformity madness, heart of nabassu and TWF feat from flaws. Dex to damage from Targeteer instead of a fighter feat. Starting wealth spent on 4 alchemists fires, sling, clubs, leather armor, long spear, 4 javelins.

Effective HP of 22+con, immune to mind influencing effects, Flasks for Shield+Mage Armor, can absorb a negative level, TWF for Abrupt Jaunt.

Halfling would be a better choice trading 3hp for +2 to hit, +1 to ac, damage and initiative.

[Vaz]

With Flaws, an Elven Domain Generalist can get 9th level spells at First level, IIRC.

[Jormengand]

With Flaws, an Elven Domain Generalist can get 9th level spells at First level, IIRC.

So can a truenamer. In fact, a fighter can probably do it if he tries hard enough (the truenamer just gets a nifty bonus to a skill check).

Practical optimisation, people. It is your friend.

[Vogonjeltz]

That doesn't really sound like an accurate summation of the arguments against this, but if you want to talk about slippery slopes, it may occur. The example of crafting money was brought up, but we need not go that far. Just consider, what exactly is stopping our enterprising fighter, once he's done crafting his bow, from selling it? What's stopping him from taking that money, picking up more materials, and crafting a second bow? What's stopping the fighter from doing that indefinitely, until he has enough money to break the game in half? Maybe you stop the fighter before utterly insane WBL, on the basis that he only has so much time before he begins adventuring, but he'd definitely start with far more money than the rest of the party, and the issue is exacerbated if we start talking about long lived races, who could take years crafting and selling bows before the game begins. It's just kinda silly, is the thing.

I obviously need not rely on this argument to claim that this shouldn't be allowed, because it isn't allowed within the rules, but if you want game breaking, then there it is. It's not even like this particularly favors the fighter, as the wizard has craft on his skill list as well, and will likely take it if this incentive exists. This just becomes an odd contest of who best can abuse insane starting gold. I mean, I'd have to suspect that you wouldn't want that, because it's meaningless, though I suppose it could be fun on a lark.

Edit: Also, do note that the slippery slope cited here isn't really a fallacy. This is just the way the game would seem to actually interact with the new rule you're arguing for, and rules don't stop moving forward just because of a speed bump like common sense or game balance. You'd probably need to put in some actual mechanism to stop this from working.

Double-edit: Incidentally, it looks like this plan would, in fact earn money. You'd earn it slowly, certainly, but you make the majig at a third of the price, and sell it at half, and the speed is irrelevant when this is happening during back-story.

Probably because selling the crafted item would be increasing wealth, whereas using it is not. By the way, this argument that suddenly a Fighter will be going mad with power is itself a slippery slope argument.


So as that L1 wizard, how do you kill that Hecatoncheires? Or kill Orcus?

Craft [Minting].

Which still doesn't explain how the Wizard has Profession as a Class Skill, Craft, and Spellslots, which he can sell, compared to the fighters only ability to have one of those - Crafting.

You don't, you kill level appropriate things and run away from the level inappropriate things. That question applies equally to what a crafter does when any very large monster decides to wreck the store. Dead crafters make no money right?

The sale of spell slots has already been disproven, as has minting.

[eggynack]

Probably because selling the crafted item would be increasing wealth, whereas using it is not. By the way, this argument that suddenly a Fighter will be going mad with power is itself a slippery slope argument.

Both selling and using the crafted item would be increasing wealth, as you can buy more things if you need to spend less on your bow. After all, if you're proposing the idea that only actual gold is wealth, then I can always convert the money back into things at the end. As for this being a slippery slope argument, yes, obviously. I explicitly discussed the fact that it is that. However, what it is not is the slippery slope fallacy. The fallacy requires that there be no absolute mechanism to carry you from one step to the next, and there is one here, in the form of the rules. The fighter doesn't necessarily have to make use of this ability, but you asked for the game breaking capacity of these rules, and so here it is.


The sale of spell slots has already been disproven, as has minting.
Neither of these things, especially the first, has been disproven at all. Minting at least lacks serious rules support, but sale of spell slots has book support behind it.

[Vogonjeltz]

Both selling and using the crafted item would be increasing wealth, as you can buy more things if you need to spend less on your bow. After all, if you're proposing the idea that only actual gold is wealth, then I can always convert the money back into things at the end. As for this being a slippery slope argument, yes, obviously. I explicitly discussed the fact that it is that. However, what it is not is the slippery slope fallacy. The fallacy requires that there be no absolute mechanism to carry you from one step to the next, and there is one here, in the form of the rules. The fighter doesn't necessarily have to make use of this ability, but you asked for the game breaking capacity of these rules, and so here it is.


Neither of these things, especially the first, has been disproven at all. Minting at least lacks serious rules support, but sale of spell slots has book support behind it.

Using wealth efficiently is not increasing wealth, it's increasing purchasing power.

Both have been thoroughly disproven. There are rules for PCs to purchase spellcasting services. There is no support for sale by PCs.

*the PC can't will a market for services into existence. Either someone wants to buy a spell or they don't.

[eggynack]

Using wealth efficiently is not increasing wealth, it's increasing purchasing power.
Increasing purchasing power is increasing wealth. They are fundamentally the same thing. Besides that, why does the difference even matter? How does your odd houserule not support this outcome, beyond the fact that the outcome is problematic? I already know that the outcome is problematic. That's the whole point.


Both have been thoroughly disproven. There are rules for PCs to purchase spellcasting services. There is no support for sale by PCs.

If spellcasting can be bought, then spellcasting can be sold. That's just how basic reality works.

Edit:
*the PC can't will a market for services into existence. Either someone wants to buy a spell or they don't.
Of course. That doesn't mean you can't sell to willing buyers, if they exist, and spellcasting is a pretty useful thing to purchase. Our noble wizard has weeks to find buyers, and he need only find a few to beat bow value.

[Brookshw]

So can a truenamer. In fact, a fighter can probably do it if he tries hard enough (the truenamer just gets a nifty bonus to a skill check).

Practical optimisation, people. It is your friend.

You and I have very different definitions of practical optimization if first levels run around with 9th level spells in your games.

[georgie_leech]

You and I have very different definitions of practical optimization if first levels run around with 9th level spells in your games.

I think his point is that restricting it to PO is probably better than letting TO into the equation. That gets really silly really fast.

[Vogonjeltz]

Increasing purchasing power is increasing wealth. They are fundamentally the same thing. Besides that, why does the difference even matter? How does your odd houserule not support this outcome, beyond the fact that the outcome is problematic? I already know that the outcome is problematic. That's the whole point.

If spellcasting can be bought, then spellcasting can be sold. That's just how basic reality works.

Edit:
Of course. That doesn't mean you can't sell to willing buyers, if they exist, and spellcasting is a pretty useful thing to purchase. Our noble wizard has weeks to find buyers, and he need only find a few to beat bow value.

It 's not fundamentally the same thing. Being able to craft a particular item or set of items isn't increased gp. Gold has the quality of being fungible, Crafting does not.

What house rule?

Spellcasting can't be sold on demand, Nor are there any rules for the sale of said services by PCs that is a basic reality.

[eggynack]

It 's not fundamentally the same thing. Being able to craft a particular item or set of items isn't increased gp. Gold has the quality of being fungible, Crafting does not.
I don't even know what that distinction means. Crafted items aren't perfectly liquid, but they're not exactly difficult to move. It's also not like that's a reason why this would be against the rules.


What house rule?
The house rule that you can lower the price of a bow by crafting it before the game starts. I've already established that it is one. Now we're just talking about the theoretical ramifications of this rule. It's a fine thing, I guess, if a bit off topic.


Spellcasting can't be sold on demand, Nor are there any rules for the sale of said services by PCs that is a basic reality.
I never said on demand, but it can be sold. The rules that exist for this purpose barely even need to do so for this to work. A service doesn't necessarily need a book listed price for it to be capable of sale. The book listed price just makes things easier, by establishing a price.

[Agincourt]

The house rule that you can lower the price of a bow by crafting it before the game starts. I've already established that it is one.

You have established your opinion. You have not shown it is forbidden. Repeating your own opinion ad naseum has no effect on its legality.

[eggynack]

You have established your opinion. You have not shown it is forbidden. Repeating your own opinion ad naseum has no effect on its legality.
I gave solid evidence that you've done nothing to refute. If you'd like to, y'know, refute the evidence, then you can do so, but in the meantime this is very much not just an opinion.

[Agincourt]

I gave solid evidence that you've done nothing to refute. If you'd like to, y'know, refute the evidence, then you can do so, but in the meantime this is very much not just an opinion.

No. You've repeated your interpretation.

I provided a counter interpretation. It was really simple and you've done nothing to refute it, but merely repeat your opinion.

There are explicit rules for how to craft. A player is allowed to make use of them. Your opinion notwithstanding, there are no rules saying crafting cannot be done at character creation.

Furthermore, there aren't many limitations on what a player may write into the background. For the most part, this is left up to the DM. This is the sort of silence that is supposed to be within a DM's discretion.

[eggynack]

No. You've repeated your interpretation.

I provided a counter interpretation. It was really simple and you've done nothing to refute it, but merely repeat your opinion.

There are explicit rules for how to craft. A player is allowed to make use of them. Your opinion notwithstanding, there are no rules saying crafting cannot be done at character creation.

Furthermore, there aren't many limitations on what a player may write into the background. For the most part, this is left up to the DM. This is the sort of silence that is supposed to be within a DM's discretion.
The rules explicitly state that items obtained, before the game, from starting gold, are purchased. It is similarly stated that method of item acquisition is irrelevant. There is no interpretation here.

[Aetis]

By Core Only, Fighters have an edge over Wizards at Lv 1 I believe.

[Agincourt]

The rules explicitly state that items obtained, before the game, from starting gold, are purchased. It is similarly stated that method of item acquisition is irrelevant. There is no interpretation here.

The rules just are not as explicit as you claim. Repeating that over and over will not add clarity.

[eggynack]

The rules just are not as explicit as you claim. Repeating that over and over will not add clarity.
In what way, exactly, are the rules not as explicit as I claim?

[Somensjev]

By Core Only, Fighters have an edge over Wizards at Lv 1 I believe.

as long as the fighter is not an elf, the wizard can use sleep
the fighter has an advantage depending on his race, and how far away they first see each other

Open field = fighter can use ranged attacks, if he's an elf he doesn't have to stay out of the range of sleep

Two ends of a room in a dungeon/similar building = easily the wizard, the fighter has to put up with sleep, colour spray, grease, web, or any combination there of

Agincourt- "The rules just are not as explicit as you claim. Repeating that over and over will not add clarity."

Please cite sources to back up your claim. Because trust me, from an outsider perspective, eggynack is right

[Agincourt]

The rules about starting wealth allude to circumventing purchasing items by writing a backstory wherein a PC says they inherited items or got them in the military. They do not say anything about mitigating costs through using skills a PC has paid for.

There's a qualitative difference between saying "I get double treasure because my father died and I inherited his stuff too" and writing a background wherein the PC learns a craft, pays for it, then pays for the raw materials and artisans tools, and then the DM carefully monitors the skill checks to make sure no dice are fudged.

The former seems to be what the PHB prohibits. It does not say anything about using skills, feats, or other paid-for abilities to mitigate cost.

[dextercorvia]

The rules about starting wealth allude to circumventing purchasing items by writing a backstory wherein a PC says they inherited items or got them in the military. They do not say anything about mitigating costs through using skills a PC has paid for.

There's a qualitative difference between saying "I get double treasure because my father died and I inherited his stuff too" and writing a background wherein the PC learns a craft, pays for it, then pays for the raw materials and artisans tools, and then the DM carefully monitors the skill checks to make sure no dice are fudged.

The former seems to be what the PHB prohibits. It does not say anything about using skills, feats, or other paid-for abilities to mitigate cost.

The same rules only specifically allow choosing a starting package, or purchasing the items using your starting gold allotment.

[eggynack]

The rules about starting wealth allude to circumventing purchasing items by writing a backstory wherein a PC says they inherited items or got them in the military. They do not say anything about mitigating costs through using skills a PC has paid for.

There's a qualitative difference between saying "I get double treasure because my father died and I inherited his stuff too" and writing a background wherein the PC learns a craft, pays for it, then pays for the raw materials and artisans tools, and then the DM carefully monitors the skill checks to make sure no dice are fudged.

The former seems to be what the PHB prohibits. It does not say anything about using skills, feats, or other paid-for abilities to mitigate cost.
There's actually no prohibition put in place. The idea is that you actually can craft the thing, for flavor purposes, and it'll just cost the same. In any case, that's not even really the main aspect of the argument. The point is that the book explicitly states that any items are purchased. If crafting is, as you say, qualitatively different, then that doesn't mean that you get awesome crafting. It means that you can't craft at all, for profit or otherwise. There's only one stated way to use starting gold, and that is to effectively buy stuff straight out. If you're not doing that, you're not following the rules.

[Somensjev]

The same rules only specifically allow choosing a starting package, or purchasing the items using your starting gold allotment.

y'know, i should've brought up something that simple

you've got option A or option B, you may not take option C
in other words, you've got starting packages or purchasing, you may not craft before the game

[Aetis]

Sleep takes 1 round to go off, right?

So Fighter has a chance to break line of sight/run out of range/attempt to interrupt with ranged attack.

I think Wizard's best bet would be Color Spray and Coup de grace at Lv1.

[Aetis]

Actually, scratch that.

Color Spray's Range is too short to be much of use.

If Fighter ever gets a successful charge, Fighter 1-shots the wizard on average.

[Somensjev]

Sleep takes 1 round to go off, right?

So Fighter has a chance to break line of sight/run out of range/attempt to interrupt with ranged attack.

I think Wizard's best bet would be Color Spray and Coup de grace at Lv1.

i mentioned sleep since it has the best range, and people seemed to be arguing earlier that at longer distances a fighter would always win

[Agincourt]

y'know, i should've brought up something that simple

you've got option A or option B, you may not take option C
in other words, you've got starting packages or purchasing, you may not craft before the game

But you are purchasing it when you craft. That's the point. You're paying the explicitly written costs for raw materials and artisans tools and also paying in skill points.

[Somensjev]

Actually, scratch that.

Color Spray's Range is too short to be much of use.

If Fighter ever gets a successful charge, Fighter 1-shots the wizard on average.

if he hits, a wizard can easily have more AC than a fighter

edit:

But you are purchasing it when you craft. That's the point. You're paying the explicitly written costs for raw materials and artisans tools and also paying in skill points.

no you're not, you're crafting it, purchasing it would be full price, no matter what
if you're crafting, then you're not purchasing

[AMFV]

i mentioned sleep since it has the best range, and people seemed to be arguing earlier that at longer distances a fighter would always win

Well there are other solutions to that. The Wizard is a Shadow Gnome, with the appropriate Familiar and Skill Focus (Hide), Possibly two flaws and Sneaky, and Skill Focus (Move Silently). Spot and Listen aren't fighter class skills, allowing the wizard to easily sneak into range, with the huge racial bonus, size bonus, familiar bonus and feat bonus.


Actually, scratch that.

Color Spray's Range is too short to be much of use.

If Fighter ever gets a successful charge, Fighter 1-shots the wizard on average.

Unless he can't see them...

[eggynack]

But you are purchasing it when you craft. That's the point. You're paying the explicitly written costs for raw materials and artisans tools and also paying in skill points.
Crafting isn't a stated way that you can acquire stuff, and it's not a step you can add in. You can buy the materials with starting gold, if you like, and craft during the game, but there is no mechanism to craft items before the game.

[Aetis]

Well, a Core Wizard Lv 1 has 2 lv1 spells per day.

I don't think he would spend them on Mage Armor and Shield, since he then would have no way to fight back.

[Aetis]

Well there are other solutions to that. The Wizard is a Shadow Gnome, with the appropriate Familiar and Skill Focus (Hide), Possibly two flaws and Sneaky, and Skill Focus (Move Silently). Spot and Listen aren't fighter class skills, allowing the wizard to easily sneak into range, with the huge racial bonus, size bonus, familiar bonus and feat bonus.



Unless he can't see them...

I was talking about Core Only case.

I believe Fighter has an edge over the wizard in Core Only.

[AMFV]

I was talking about Core Only case.

I believe Fighter has an edge over the wizard in Core Only.

Well trick still works, just as a Halfling not a Shadow Gnome so the bonus goes from +4 to +2, but all the other options are still core. Furthermore flaws are SRD and are therefore generally considered core. And last: Specialist Wizards and Bonus Spells are also in Core, so more than 2 Spells is certainly a possibility if not a probability.

[Somensjev]

Well, a Core Wizard Lv 1 has 2 lv1 spells per day.

I don't think he would spend them on Mage Armor and Shield, since he then would have no way to fight back.

that's without specialisation, with it a core wizard can have up to three 1st level spells, and four cantrips


I was talking about Core Only case.

I believe Fighter has an edge over the wizard in Core Only.

it depends on a number of variables, such as how far apart they are, who see's who first (most likely the wizard will see the fighter), etc

[georgie_leech]

Well trick still works, just as a Halfling not a Shadow Gnome so the bonus goes from +4 to +2, but all the other options are still core. Furthermore flaws are SRD and are therefore generally considered core. And last: Specialist Wizards and Bonus Spells are also in Core, so more than 2 Spells is certainly a possibility if not a probability.

Indeed. Expecting a Wizard to have an 11 or lower starting INT just isn't reasonable. If that's the standard we're holding the Wizard to, then in all fairness the Fighter is unarmed, unarmoured, and doesn't have IUS.

[Aetis]

You're right. Wizard lv1 has 3 spells.

So the battle would go like this, assuming featureless terrain:

Wizard casts his defensive buffs, and runs as fast as he can toward the fighter.

Fighter moves back every turn, shooting with his bow.

Eventually, the wizard gets in range and casts Color Spray, at which point Fighter will probably fail his Will Save and get Coup de grace'd. If he makes the save, Fighter wins.

[AMFV]

You're right. Wizard lv1 has 3 spells.

So the battle would go like this, assuming featureless terrain:

Wizard casts his defensive buffs, and runs as fast as he can toward the fighter.

Fighter moves back every turn, shooting with his bow.

Eventually, the wizard gets in range and casts Color Spray, at which point Fighter will probably fail his Will Save and get Coup de grace'd. If he makes the save, Fighter wins.

If we're assuming featureless terrain then the wizard should turn and run as fast as he can. And since he has better starting wealth (since he isn't at this point as dependent on equipment), the Wizard can quite possibly afford a mount and escape that way.

[Aetis]

Why would the wizard run?

Wizard will win on average if he does what I've outlined.

[Aetis]

He'll kill the poor fighter and take his equipment. :(

[AMFV]

Why would the wizard run?

Wizard will win on average if he does what I've outlined.

Because by running to a more favorable terrain he can theoretically turn "on average" into an almost certainty. The goal is not to die in rocket tag, not when you can control the terms of the game.

[dextercorvia]

Non-core. I don't care if you craft the bow, or not.

Feats: Spell Mastery, Uncanny Forethought. Now, sleep is a standard action to cast, and if the fighter happens to be an elf, I didn't waste a slot on it.

[Story]

Furthermore flaws are SRD and are therefore generally considered core.

UA is most definitely NOT Core.

As for flaws, I had one game where SRD was allowed, flaws included, but I had another game where almost everything except UA was allowed. So YMMV.

[Nessa Ellenesse]

Assuming neither are flat footed if the wizard has aburbt jaunt and sleep he can dodge the fighters one attack then have a good chance of knocking him cold +0 to will and fighters generally do not invest in wisdom. Knock him out and run for it.

[Aetis]

I thought Core meant PHB, DMG, and MM only.

[dextercorvia]

I thought Core meant PHB, DMG, and MM only.

Usually.

There are plenty of people who refer to core as anything OGL, so the confusion comes up sometimes.

Still, in core, there is almost nothing a Fighter can do at 1 that a Wizard can't.

[Doug Lampert]

But you are purchasing it when you craft. That's the point. You're paying the explicitly written costs for raw materials and artisans tools and also paying in skill points.

You get the items you purchase, that's how getting the items you purchase works. That means when you meet the other guys at the inn for your first adventure, your guy has skill points, and raw materials, and artisan's tools.

But that isn't a bow. You are arguing for having a bow, not all that other stuff.

[Story]

I thought Core meant PHB, DMG, and MM only.

It does.

[Vogonjeltz]

Non-core. I don't care if you craft the bow, or not.

Feats: Spell Mastery, Uncanny Forethought. Now, sleep is a standard action to cast, and if the fighter happens to be an elf, I didn't waste a slot on it.

Wizards have to memorize their spells before casting, if it turns out those spells aren't useful than it is too late to do anything but flee.

Also, starting wealth is used to purchase materials for crafting and crafting occurs sometime in the background. Presto.

[eggynack]

Also, starting wealth is used to purchase materials for crafting and crafting occurs sometime in the background. Presto.
If by "sometime in the background," you mean during the game, then sure. Except the wizard will also use that background time for some purpose. Such is the nature of things.

[Vogonjeltz]

If by "sometime in the background," you mean during the game, then sure. Except the wizard will also use that background time for some purpose. Such is the nature of things.

No I mean the crafting takes place in their background.

I don't have a problem with the wizard doing that (for example, spending their wealth to have gotten another spell). Accruing wealth is of course a different matter.

[AMFV]

I thought Core meant PHB, DMG, and MM only.

It does.

Not necessarily it can also mean SRD only, common use on that term has expanded somewhat, in any case as I've pointed out the trick still works even in core as I presented it, and a standard fighter has no way of countering it.


Wizards have to memorize their spells before casting, if it turns out those spells aren't useful than it is too late to do anything but flee.

Also, starting wealth is used to purchase materials for crafting and crafting occurs sometime in the background. Presto.

Uncanny Forethought allows the wizard to change his spells when he needs to, it just takes him a full round action to cast them. And fleeing isn't always bad. I'm not sure why everybody assumes that the wizard would stand and fight, he's got an 18 intelligence (quite possibly) he'd want the fight on his terms.

[eggynack]

No I mean the crafting takes place in their background.

I don't have a problem with the wizard doing that (for example, spending their wealth to have gotten another spell). Accruing wealth is of course a different matter.
What does "in their background" mean? If you mean before the game starts, I keep tellin' ya that it's against the rules. I've provided some pretty solid citations for it too. Also, accruing wealth is very much not a different matter, because it is, as I've said, what you are doing. You might be doing it in a way you think is acceptable, or on a smaller scale, but it's what you're doing.

[dextercorvia]

Wizards have to memorize their spells before casting, if it turns out those spells aren't useful than it is too late to do anything but flee.

Also, starting wealth is used to purchase materials for crafting and crafting occurs sometime in the background. Presto.

So, you didn't even check the feats I mentioned? Uncanny Forethought lets the wizard leave Int mod slots open per day, and gives him two options for what to do with them. He can either spend a Standard Action to cast a spell mastered through Spell Mastery, or a Full Round Action (not 1 round) to cast an unmastered spell. Both of these options are spontaneous, and both ignore the original casting time of the spell.

Since you have to take Spell Mastery first (prereq), you are going to pick your best 1st level spells to master, including Sleep. So, you can cast it spontaneously as a standard action, and if the Fighter turns out to be an elf, you didn't waste a slot on a spell he is immune to.

Hail of Stones is another good choice for this, as its main drawback is its casting time. Otherwise it is a medium range, fighter takes damage no matter what spell.

Regarding crafting before character creation, what skill ranks are you using to do this? Before 1st level you don't have any skill points.

[Stella]

There are no rules for selling craft products or spell uses.Well, there are (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/wealthAndMoney.htm#sellingLoot).

In general, a character can sell something for half its listed price.

Trade goods are the exception to the half-price rule. A trade good, in this sense, is a valuable good that can be easily exchanged almost as if it were cash itself.
There are no rules for players selling spells, but by the same logic one might allow a player to make half the value which a trusted, established seller of spells might earn.

[Ivanhoe]

Given that some strategies that are being floated around rely on a familiar, it's worth noting that it costs 100 gp to summon one, and the wizards average wealth at first level is only 75 gp.

Not that there aren't other strategies the wizard can employ.

A good point, and I've been thinking about that. Still, given that the fighter side is so set on allowing a fighter to craft bows with starting money, there is nothing stopping the wizard from exchanging some spells from his spell book for extra cash (and/or get spell mastery feat, sell the whole spellbook, retrain feat later).
Familiar still beats fighter then.:smallsmile:

[dextercorvia]

Nah, apparently since the Wizard can hit a Craft:Incense check without investing ranks he can get a Familiar for under 34 gold.