Am I cheating at D&D.. as the GM.. unrelated to rudisporking?

[draken50]

Hey, ummm... other... threads sparked a thought I had, and I wondered what the player viewpoint on this is. To help narrow the topic somewhat I'd appreciate it if we could use a specific example from one of my games. Also, this is unrelated to optimization or whatnot.

Basically I wanted to create a challenge for the players using a cleric, and a number of skeletons. So here's the setup:

Party of good aligned characters joins is led by a cleric to a graveyard. Cleric is actually evil (party was misled), and has already spread silver around the small grave area. Cleric runs ahead of the party and begins casting Desecration, as a result the skeletons that rise have some minor bonuses. Additionally after being "Destroyed" they re-assemble and resume fighting after 2 rounds. The skeletons, additionally do not leave the circle of silver, and appear to be to some degree under the control of the cleric.

Addendum: the cleric is only level 3, the skeletons in all other manners match as written in the monster manual + the bonus from desecration.

So basically, I have an NPC of a playable race/class combination, that is able to perform acts that are NOT recreate-able by the PCS.

Personally, I don't consider this cheating in any way, as my goal was to provide a more challenging and memorable encounter for the party.

I am interested in whether or not others agree or disagree.

I will state beforehand that I am unlikely to change my methodology, but if it is a strong point of contention/frustration for players, I may be more upfront about that sort of thing before players start in one of my games.

[Vhaidara]

That's an awesome encounter, provided that you gave the players chances to notice that things were wrong (skeletons shouldn't be reforming, kill the cleric).

My reaction would probably have been to run. Mostly because the place where you really cheated was letting a level 3 cleric animate dead, which is a 3rd level spell.

[jedipotter]

Personally, I don't consider this cheating in any way, as my goal was to provide a more challenging and memorable encounter for the party.

I am interested in whether or not others agree or disagree.



I'd say yes.

First off the old ''i'm going to make a challenge more powerful then it's level'' is cheating. If you can't do it with in the rules, or at least using the rules for a guideline, then your cheating. How can a 3rd level cleric get a reanimation effect? That is a powerful effect. Even more so as the cleric can't even cast animate dead, right? So did you add a template to the skeletons? Increase the CR of the skeletons? Increase the level of the whole encounter? And I'd hope they can only reanimate once.

Now I'm all for adding strange, new, weird, unknown effects.....but you need to stay within the lines of the rules. I'm not a fan of ''whim effects''.

Your effect, while cool and interesting, is a bit beyond 3rd level power. It's hard to handwave away. You could do it with a powerful magic item or an in place spell effect....but you'd still be way over the 3rd level of power.

Once your past low, low level this are very easy. You can make ''skeketons with regeneration'' no problem. And it's not cheating.

[Vhaidara]

Now I'm all for adding strange, new, weird, unknown effects.....but you need to stay within the lines of the rules. I'm not a fan of ''whim effects''.

Aren't there two entire threads on you saying that you run the entire game on your whims?



Also, to the OP: The image I'm getting here is the boss fight with infinite, respawning little minions who all die when the boss dies. Is this correct?

[draken50]

That's an awesome encounter, provided that you gave the players chances to notice that things were wrong (skeletons shouldn't be reforming, kill the cleric).

The players saw the skeletons reforming after popping a couple, and figured out that they wouldn't leave the ring. The ranger got dropped, though not killed, and shortly there after the sorcerer (I built the player an enchantment sorc) Hit the evil cleric with sleep, and as the skeletons went and formed a shield wall around him they were able to drag the ranger out of the circle. Cleric healed him and he was back up.


Mostly because the place where you really cheated was letting a level 3 cleric animate dead, which is a 3rd level spell.

Yeah see that's what I mean. I basically decided he'd done some kind of ritual before hand (he'd been out there a while), and I did burn his only 2nd level spell slot on consecration. Additionally, I made his feats will save oriented to give the sorcerer some trouble, but still a pretty good chance to sleep him.

I appreciate the compliment about the encounter, and I didn't think anyone would really be that bothered by basically making up the rules. My players didn't know enough to know that animate dead is a much higher level spell as they were all new, but I guess I haven't dealt with that knowledgeable of players. This was E6 btw, so they really only looked at spells up to level 3, and I explained that higher level spells could exist, but were rare, and ritual magic. (my game, I don't know that it's in E6)

[draken50]

Also, to the OP: The image I'm getting here is the boss fight with infinite, respawning little minions who all die when the boss dies. Is this correct?

Exactly, with the caveat that the minions could not leave the graveyard/desecrated area.

There was a stone mausoleum the cleric lived in and could retreat to if the players decided to just try to range attack him, though I obviously would have kept whatever damage occurred before the retreat, and his resources were actually quite slim, having recently fled from killing some followers of a good god, and having taken very little with him.

[Winterwind]

As far as I'm concerned, any rules in roleplaying games should exist solely for the purpose of facilitating telling a better story more easily and with more structure. When rules get in the way of that, they weren't rules worth keeping anyway. So, no, I wouldn't call what you did there cheating; I'd call not doing what you did there (or something along similar lines) to be failing in one's gamemaster duties.

This said, this shouldn't be confused with a gamemaster who misunderstands the purpose of the game and thinks it's about beating the players instead of telling a good story, and starts making arbitrary rulings and ignoring rules for the purpose of screwing over players, instead of the purpose of telling a good story. That is absolutely condemnable and reason enough to abandon such a gamemaster straight away.

So, I guess what I'm saying is, ignoring rules is always okay in my book, as long as it is done with the right intent.

[Urpriest]

The potential problem is what this might do to the setting. If this is something the guy can do just because he's a cleric, then a PC cleric might try something similar, or they might try to get an allied NPC to do it.

You need to come up with an in-setting reason why this particular cleric could do this. Maybe he read up on a special ritual, maybe it's a one-time blessing from his deity. But there should be some explanation, if the players dig for it.

[draken50]

The potential problem is what this might do to the setting. If this is something the guy can do just because he's a cleric, then a PC cleric might try something similar, or they might try to get an allied NPC to do it.

You need to come up with an in-setting reason why this particular cleric could do this. Maybe he read up on a special ritual, maybe it's a one-time blessing from his deity. But there should be some explanation, if the players dig for it.

The players investigated and signs of the ritual, and caught on that the skeletons were already out of their graves before the cleric got there. After finding the holy symbol of Cyric ) and the holy symbol of Lathander he got of the dude he killed, the cleric of Tyr and paladin of helm basically were basically like "Damn followers of Cyric, killing people and raising dead and crap," and that was about the end of that.

Also, in E6 level 3 is actually a pretty decent level. Like dude may not have been the baddest dude on the block, but he was pretty bad. Maybe having killed some good guys helped boost him a bit, or the place was previously corrupted or whatnot. Players didn't really hang around long, they just went back to give the good/sad news and get paid. (actually they wanted the Cleric's to recall the dudes out trying hunt the bad guy down so they could help out with something else.)

Edited: I do appreciate that you're looking at the long view, and it's certainly a valid critique. Am I cheating the players though? Or was the crux of your point, basically.. If you can explain, not it's not, but if you just did some stuff. Then yes it is?

[Tvtyrant]

He has a scroll of animate dead prepped that he was given by a higher level manager of his order. Or there is an old spell trap of animate dead. I try to make most plot abilities available to the group, but really the point is to have fun.

[Kazudo]

Look. Cheating only happens in a game like D&D when there is genuine dishonesty.

Cheating is not the word to use here.

You might be being a tad overzealous in your wishes to create a challenging situation for your players, but as the DM the game is pretty much written with you being the arbitrator in mind. The game has an understood "Rule Zero" in effect that makes it so that the entire game more or less (within the bounds of sanity and fun-having) is funneled through the you as a sieve. It passes through the filter that is the DM.

The thing is that, as has been mentioned, you REALLY need to be able to explain "why" if asked. No, you may not be asked, and no, you aren't bound by any kind of law to actually answer, but you have to be able to.

Why can the NPCs do things the PCs can't? IS it as simple as "because they are imbued with power from an evil deity and as such the party can't do it because they're all good aligned"? Or is it as complicated as "he found the scepter of Zer-Orthos which attracted an evil scion of dark magic to him which cursed him and hollowed out his body into a husk which it now occupies and fills the world with its evil and hatred"?

Either way is better than "I just wanted to make it more fun", BUT IF THAT IS THE CASE, just tell your players that. Out of Character communication is 110% important to a social game like D&D. You have to trust your players, and they have to trust you in order to make the game work. Holding secrets back from them except for dramatic appeal is a good way to make them question other things you're doing.

Then next thing you know you don't like your players and gear the game to weed out players you don't like out of a lack of trust, yadda yadda. It goes downhill from there.

[Urpriest]

Edited: I do appreciate that you're looking at the long view, and it's certainly a valid critique. Am I cheating the players though? Or was the crux of your point, basically.. If you can explain, not it's not, but if you just did some stuff. Then yes it is?

Essentially. I don't know if I'd call it "cheating" either way. But it's a bit out of the ordinary, a bit outside the typical DM-player social contract of 3.5 if it's really just arbitrary. It's not hard to make it non-arbitrary, and there are plenty of rationales that could do the trick. Just something to keep in mind. For example, if the cleric of Tyr falls later in the campaign and turns to Cyric or something, you may need a reason for why they can't pull the same trick.

[draken50]

This is exactly the kind of discussion I was hoping to spark.

Basically I made the choice to use E6 because I agreed with the concepts that seemed to lead to it's creation. Both in regards to where it balances the classes... a bit, but also what storytelling realm it seems to take place in. Oh and the whole "Gandalf was a 5th level wizard" thing.

Within it, as I recall, animate dead is a 4th level spell for wizards, and shows as 3rd for clerics. To me that kind of put it as the kind of thing only epic casters could do, or in the case a wizards, a whole damn bunch of them.

To complicate matters further... I actually run that in ummm... try not to swear... Forgotten Realms. Basically I decided to look at the history, and said, F* it. At some point, some powers screwed with the power of the weave.. and um... so people don't get as powerful as they used to, but some of the crazy stuff like the portals and whatnot still work, even if they aren't recreate-able by current means. Though if I need to replicate more powerful spell effects, I'll go with ritual magic and require high level casters... and I guess double the amount for each spell level higher. So you'd need two casters that can cast level 3 spells for the ritual for a level 4 spell, or like 4 casters who can cast level 2 ect. ect. (this was explained to the players).

Anyway, the main thing I saw as well was that undead... like zombies, and skeletons and whatnot, based solely off the only way I've found for them to really be created now required a spell that needed NPC's of very high level to create. Alternatively, I didn't seem unheard of, to my mind for them to be caused by curses or some unrelated to a casting of "Animate Dead" type stuff. That and them being quite useful as low level fodder.

Also, I prefer not to run evil games, and if the paladin fell... and became a follower of Cyric, I'd imagine the Cleric of Tyr would probably smash his face in pretty quick, so I'm not sure it would come up. All else failing, it could have required the blood of good clerics killed in the evil gods name, and now we're in a game that I don't have any desire to run. Edit: In terms of players being the bad guy, not the bad guy needing blood.

[RenaldoS]

I don't think this is cheating in any shape or form. Additionally, there are rules support for this exact situation. See: Incantations (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/magic/incantations.htm)

The NPC cleric discovered an incantation and performed the final step when the PCs arrived. You could have the cleric's journal note how he found it in an ancient book, and if you want, let the PCs discover the incantation themselves. Additionally, incantations are encouraged to be very specific, so maybe this particular incantation only works in this graveyard and the undead can't leave.

[draken50]

I honestly didn't know about those. Anyone know what book they're in?

[Urpriest]

I honestly didn't know about those. Anyone know what book they're in?

Unearthed Arcana.

In general, you can also have lower level clerics temporarily summoning undead with the Summon Undead line of spells from the Spell Compendium.

[137beth]

I honestly didn't know about those. Anyone know what book they're in?

They are in Unearthed Arcana.
I don't think it was cheating. You created a threat that is more powerful than a third level cleric, but probably less powerful than a fifth level cleric. If you set the Encounter Level appropriately, then it works fine on the game end of things. In-universe, just come up with a reason why that cleric had animate dead.
EDIT: Swordsaged

[Vhaidara]

Hang on, E6 in the Realms? Gimme a minute.
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11111/111114474/3784035-laughing.gif

It's mostly the fact that Elminster has 5 classes. And now only 6 levels to take them in (Fighter 1/Rogue 2/Cleric 3/Wizard 24/Archmage 5, best progression ever)

[Yahzi]

So basically, I have an NPC of a playable race/class combination, that is able to perform acts that are NOT recreate-able by the PCS.
But those acts are essentially achievable by a 5th level cleric.

So what you've done is make a 5th level creature and arbitrarily call it a 3rd level character. Why did you do this? Solely so you could call it a 3rd lvl challenge instead of a 5th lvl challenge. And what is the sole effect of changing the challenge rating? To reduce the XP the players get.

So: you arbitrarily reduced the CR of an encounter solely to deny the characters XP. So, ya, that kinda sounds like "cheating" to me.

[Vhaidara]

Except a 5th level cleric would have more health, better bonuses, better gear, better spells, and still couldn't make the skeletons self-reanimating.

[Sith_Happens]

So in summary, you're having an NPC perform a custom, rather unusual act of magic. As long as it would be theoretically possible for the PCs to reverse-engineer this act (though there might be any number of practical barriers to doing so), the only thing you're guilty of is homebrewing.

[Quietus]

Except a 5th level cleric would have more health, better bonuses, better gear, better spells, and still couldn't make the skeletons self-reanimating.

Sure he could. Self-resetting trap of Make Whole and Animate Dead? As long as the skeleton's bodies are in the circle, they A) reassemble themselves and B) animate. Expensive as all hell, but doable. And as a trap, stationary.

[Flickerdart]

Fun fact: The DM is not required to give a reason for an enemy to have minions. You meet a dragon with a kobold squire. Did she take Leadership to have a kobold? Did she dominate the kobold? Did she summon the kobold? Did she give birth to the kobold? Did she whittle the kobold out of soap and punch a wizard until the wizard animated it? Nobody cares. Kill the dragon, kill the kobold, get XP for killing a dragon and a kobold.

The ability to create minions only matters when said minions are not part of XP calculations (when they are created using abilities of the thing you are already fighting).

So as long as the PCs got XP for killing however many skeletons they did, perfectly fair.

[draken50]

So as long as the PCs got XP for killing however many skeletons they did, perfectly fair.

I can definitively say that they did.


As to E6 in the realms.. the gif is completely appropriate. Thankfully, all but one of my players were complete neophytes, and after I ensured that they knew they weren't playing the realm directly as written none of them had any problem. The only player more familiar with the realms basically had the same reaction as you Keledrath, but his response boiled down to: "If it makes the game easier to run, and I get to play more often as a result, you can make Elminster a bunny for all I care." As to the multi classing stuff, I basically just figured if I needed him I'd make him a level 6 wizard with some cool gear and spellfire.

[Flickerdart]

As to the multi classing stuff, I basically just figured if I needed him I'd make him a level 6 wizard with some cool gear and spellfire.
Given how stupidly powerful Elminster is supposed to be, you might consider making him a gestalt character. Wizard 6 on one side, Warmage 6 on the other. Add on Versatile Spellcaster (so that his Warmage side can cast 4th level Warmage spells) and you've got him being obnoxious all over again.

[Coidzor]

You just stumbled upon Incantations, I think. :smallconfused:

Not sure if from the backway or if this is basically how they were developed in the first place.

[torrasque666]

Given that the term has now been mentioned in a Non-Jedipotter thread, and there is no plan currently to turn this into one, does it finally get its rightful spot in the timeline?

[facelessminion]

Simple answer: Yes, by having a character somehow cast a spell he is unable to normally, you are technically cheating at D&D.

More complex answer: Yes, you are, but who the hell cares? You aren't trying to make the fight go outside of CR indicators for your players, you aren't trying to hit them with some 'I win' button, you're just trying to make a neat, memorable encounter. So while you may be fudging the rules a bit, what does it matter?

Never forget that D&D isn't a game you play against the players, it is a game you play with the players, and it doesn't really matter whether you mess with the rules a bit.

[Firechanter]

Addendum: the cleric is only level 3, the skeletons in all other manners match as written in the monster manual + the bonus from desecration.

So basically, I have an NPC of a playable race/class combination, that is able to perform acts that are NOT recreate-able by the PCS.

Personally, I don't consider this cheating in any way, as my goal was to provide a more challenging and memorable encounter for the party.

I am interested in whether or not others agree or disagree.


The encounter as such sounds cool. As long as you reward your players for the actual threats overcome, it's already quite fine. But it would be much better if everything was legal. Personally, I am a strong proponent of "the rules are universal" -- whatever limitations apply to PCs also apply to NPCs.

So let's see, where did you "cheat"?

1. Animate Dead is a 3rd level spell. Which means the cleric would have had to be 5th level to cast it. _Unless_ he used a scroll, which works just dandy. So simply have him use a scroll.
Besides, the Skeletons might have already _been_ in the ground. The Cleric could have created them before (using a scroll) and told them to hide there until he gave them the command. So basically you're in the clear here.

2. The Skeletons reassembling after destruction. That's something neither Animate Dead nor Desecrate can do. Actually, Animate Dead explicitly states that a destroyed Undead cannot be animated again. If the first wave of skeletons maxed out the controlled HD as per Animate Dead+Desecrate, the second wave was, in a sense, cheating. (Otherwise you could handle them as reserve skeletons hiding in the soil until called upon.) I can't think of a good way to make this legal. You might handwave it with a special property of this particular graveyard at best.

But then again, if the PCs survived it and you handed out the appropriate XP, and the players were having fun, who cares. ;)

[facelessminion]

A thought: This could be one of the building blocks to becoming a lich, one of the big bag of "you need to do X many horrible things to become a lich" rituals required for it.

[jiriku]

The DM is explicitly granted Rule Zero, and thus technically "cannot" cheat. However, there's good Rule Zero and there's bad Rule Zero. This example kind of straddles the border between the two, but I'm leaning in your favor.

The Good:
You did this with the intention of creating an enjoyable game for the players. That counts for a lot.
You placed limits on the effect and gave it structure. It was actually pretty similar to what you can do with a rune circle (described in Races of Stone).
You gave the players appropriate xp for the threat that they faced.

The Bad:
As discussed, 3rd level clerics generally can't do this. You've now created room for difficult questions such as "how could he do that?" and "why aren't other clerics doing this everywhere?" or "I roll Knowledge (religion) and get a 30. What other weird stuff can clerics do?" If you aren't prepared with good answers to these questions, players may begin to feel as though events in the world are arbitrary. However, many players may not care, and in this example it's trivially easy to fix, simply by thinking up satisfying answers to those questions.
When you invent stuff on short notice, there's a much greater risk of unintended consequences or poorly designed rules. For example, players may get ahold of the ritual and use it in some way that you didn't consider, causing problems for you later on. In this case, the risk of that seems very minor.

Personally, whenever I use fiat, I write up rules for it, and I put it in my campaign sourcebook document that I share with all the players (although often after the fact, to avoid ruining the surprise). This helps me ensure that I'm creating a well-defined effect, and lets my players know how the new rules interact with the game world. To be honest, most of them don't care, but a minority do, and often they do later make use of the rules I create. This is a big plus for me, since they're enriching the game world by doing so. Knowing that they may do so motivates me to make sure that whatever I create is carefully thought-out and appropriately balanced.

[Dunsparce]

Isn't there a fancy undead-based ability that can be applied to NPCs only in Dungeon Master's Guide II? IIRC it grants some undead-based spell-likes and Rebuke.

Edit: Gravetouched, page 159. Detect Undead at will, Command Undead as an evil cleric, and most importantly Create Undead and Animate Undead as spell-like abilities.

[facelessminion]

Isn't there a fancy undead-based ability that can be applied to NPCs only in Dungeon Master's Guide II? IIRC it grants some undead-based spell-likes and Rebuke.

Edit: Gravetouched, page 159. Detect Undead at will, Command Undead as an evil cleric, and most importantly Create Undead and Animate Undead as spell-like abilities.

Bam. It has a fairly hefty level adjustment, but then the entire reason you're doing it anyway is to make for an interesting combat...

[Threadnaught]

A little bit, but it seems to create a fair and potentially entertaining encounter.

[Blackhawk748]

Im totally cool with this, as long as you increased the CR an appropriate amount (like a +2?) i as a player am ok with this.

Now pretty much all the good DMing advice has been given so ill just do a quick rehash. Just be sure you have some pretty good answers for why the cleric can do this and the party will usually be ok with it. IE he had to offer a dozen virgins to learn the ritual to do this. IIRC there is a book that covers sacrifices and what you get for them, BoVD maybe?

Most of them will probably be ok with this explanation, most clerics cant replicate this power because its actually pretty had to find a dozen virgins. :smalltongue:

[iceman10058]

if the players complain about it too much, just throw in a special magic item, or a bone remnant of a long defeated lich or something, so that during the encounter it makes no sense how he can do it, then the players can blame the item on giving him more power and have to destroy it.