What If: Vaarsuvius Defeated Xykon?

[RadagastTheBrow]

So, I had a fun yet horrifying thought this morning:

If, in Darth V's big fight with Xykon, Vaarsuvius had done nearly anything differently, she could've not only ended Xykon's reign of undead terror once and for all, but also held onto two of the most powerful souls in Hell nigh-indefinitely.

So, in the spirit of poor, recently heavily inconvenienced Uatu the Watcher, I thought it might be fun to speculate:


What did V do differently to ultimately land the killing spell?
What would the Order have done with the Gates?
What would happen to the Monster in the Darkness?
What would happen to Azure City/Gobbotopia?
What would Suvie have done with nearly incomprehensible arcane power?
Most importantly, who would liberate Bloodfeast the Extreminator?


Have fun! Remember, "What-If's" are barely constrained by their original plots, so feel free to go as crazy as possible!

[martianmister]

What would the Order have done with the Gates?

They would hide them with help from Sapphire Guard.


What would happen to the Monster in the Darkness?

V would kill it.


What would happen to Azure City/Gobbotopia?

V would kill them.


What would Suvie have done with nearly incomprehensible arcane power?

Killing Belkar?


Most importantly, who would liberate Bloodfeast the Extreminator?

No one.

[Darth Paul]

What did V do differently to ultimately land the killing spell?

Thought for five minutes altogether?

Which would have caused V to buff hirself with every immunity in the book, then cast Greater Invisibility on hirself, all before teleporting into the throne room. Sure, Redcloak's trap would have gone off the first time V cast a spell, but all the immunities should have prevented any damage and the spell would not have fizzled. And all they would know was that there was an invisible caster in the room.

Next, strategy. Xykon is only alive because the Order failed to destroy is phylactery. Asking the escaping prisoner O'Chul where the phylactery is would reveal the first target- not Xykon himself, but the phylactery and Redcloak. Between O'Chul and V, Redcloak is toast in a couple rounds and the phylactery is detroyed. Then, with two heroes to one villian, Xykon is still a serious threat, but if the still-invisible V uses tactical magic, buffs O'Chul, counterspells Xykon... the fight is over.

So maybe the key is not landing a killing spell, but "What did V do differently to ultimately result in Xykon's death?" is a better question.

[dtilque]

What would happen to the Monster in the Darkness?




V would kill it.


Unlikely.

1) V had no reason to kill it.
2) If V tried to kill it anyway, O-chul would have interceded fot him.

[3SecondCultist]

You know, I've thought about this for a while. Darth is right on most counts - if V had taken any counter-measures, he might have won. Hell, if he had still held on to Haerta (described explicitly as the most powerful of the three), he might have won by sheer force alone.

But the whole point of that mini-arc was to show just how much V had lost it. The only reason he went after Xykon in the first place was because he was there, as an obstacle to be defeated in order to 'win'. Someone who needs to prove themselves as stronger than the resident threat doesn't go in with a greater invisibility.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

What did V do differently to ultimately land the killing spell?
Not a whole lot. Just thought a little bit more about the situation and cast better spells.

What would the Order have done with the Gates?
Add massive defenses and hide them even better, possibly with the help of some of Vaarsuvius's spells.

What would happen to the Monster in the Darkness?
He and O-Chul would become best friends and live happily ever after.

What would happen to Azure City/Gobbotopia?
The goblins would be driven out and the Azurites would live there again.

What would Suvie have done with nearly incomprehensible arcane power?
Looked for absolutely incomprehensible arcane power.

Most importantly, who would liberate Bloodfeast the Extreminator?
No one. He will die from tragic overexposure.

Of course, this scenario was never going to occur, but it's interesting to brainstorm what could have been.

[Lord Raziere]

Well from one point of view, the comic would end.

from another point of view, Redcloak would grab the nearest hobgoblin wizard and start all over again, probably persuading him to become a lich so that they can lay low a little while to make sure the OOTS doesn't come after them, then go to Giraard's Gate to enact the ritual when the OOTS is dead of old age....hey he is Redcloak, he is practically married to the sunk cost fallacy, I could see him waiting a few more decades to finally complete his plans, he wasn't exactly in a hurry to get to Giraard's gate when he established a goblin nation. probably raise up a hobgoblin apprentice like Jirix to eventually inherit the crimson mantle and do his job in his place if he ever croaked. he is immortal, he has an eternity of time on his hands.

but there is also the fact that the Fiends are trying to contrive something for their own plans, so they'd probably try to contrive some way of getting things back on plot as well. I could see them going to Redcloak or something to make a devilish deal with him- and if they can get Vaarsuvius to agree to one of their deals, "sunk cost" Redcloak will agree to it for sure. or they could manipulate the Linear Guild somehow for their ends. perhaps connect Redcloak to Z or Nale to do the Gate ritual instead? there is still potential for a plot here, even to still go through the whole Blood, Sweat and Tears arc with Tarquin.

[factotum]

I don't see that V could have held onto the other two splices "nigh indefinitely"--he would have needed to trance at some point, and I doubt his Will save would have been very high at that moment. Besides, since he would have that point proven the ultimate might of arcane power, he probably would have given them up willingly anyway, unless there's some other high level Big Bad we don't know about that he might have chosen to go after.

[dancrilis]

In fairness the only reason that Vaarsuvius might have stood a chance was if Xykon was under-prepared.

Take what we likely know about Vaarsuvius's abilities - than say that Vaarsuvius spends 30 minutes coming up with a plan and enacting it to ambush Xykon.

Now compare that to what we likely about Xykon's power - than give him 9 months to counter ambushes he might suffer from any potential threat.

I suspect that if we set down this as a contest between two DnD players with the Vaarsuvius player having been handed a beefed up version of their everyday character-sheet at the start of the 30 minutes, and the Xykon player using their everyday character (and frequently going through these kinds of challenges for the last few years). That the Xykon player would win the contest.

Further if Vaarsuvius had defeated Xykon it is not unreasonable to assume that Xykon has taken out an additional insurance policy to allow him to return outside of the phylactery - as such nothing would really change for Xykon in this scenario.

So:


What did V do differently to ultimately land the killing spell?
Kindof irrelevant - but with Vaarsuvius preference for disintegrate at the time I suspect it would be true strike and that (ultimately).

What would the Order have done with the Gates?
They would travel to Girard's gate in preparation for Xykon (having learned from the first time they defeated him - and surmising that it would be better to assuming that an Epic level Sorcerer might have a backup plan for staying alive).

What would happen to the Monster in the Darkness?
Might very well intercede on Xykon's behalf with the 'Escape' ability, possible killed by Vaarsuvius in anger after.

What would happen to Azure City/Gobbotopia?
Nothing Vaarsuvius would not have cared about them and teleported back to the order (or after Xykon).

What would Suvie have done with nearly incomprehensible arcane power?
Failed a will save and lost it - or gave it up when they thought the primary goal was achieved.

Most importantly, who would liberate Bloodfeast the Extreminator?
This would still be Belkar.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

I don't see that V could have held onto the other two splices "nigh indefinitely"--he would have needed to trance at some point, and I doubt his Will save would have been very high at that moment. Besides, since he would have that point proven the ultimate might of arcane power, he probably would have given them up willingly anyway, unless there's some other high level Big Bad we don't know about that he might have chosen to go after.

That's a good point. They might hold onto the spliced long enough to accomplish a few more things, and then drop them, but they probably wouldn't hold onto them for an extended period of time (also, there's the whole time in hell thing).

[malloyd]

Well from one point of view, the comic would end.


Not necessarily. Xykon is the main villain, but he's not actually the main plot token. That's the Gates. If Xykon gets killed incidentally, there's still that huge loose end of what happens to the (in some cases now already destroyed) Gates. With big hole in the sky over one of the world's major cities, keeping them secret is a lost cause. Until something closes them the story isn't actually wrapped up.

I rather assume Rich plans to wrap them both up together, with Xykon's defeat being closely tied to, or very quickly followed by, something resolving about the Gates or the Snarl, but with this alternate story arc it would be left hanging if the comic ended.

[Terrador]

>What did V do differently to ultimately land the killing spell?
The simplest solution I can think of is to fire off two or three more Empowered Sunbursts, assuming those came from Jephton's slots, and called it a day. I don't know much about immunity-stacking on wizards, though. If he really wanted to, I'm sure he could've summoned up something from Ganonron's slots for divine magic--Death Ward in particular.

>What would the Order have done with the Gates?
Probably hire high-level Good guardians and/or used Greater Planar Ally to defend them from baddies until epic-level arcane and divine casters were found to fix them. Perhaps convince Aarindarius and HPoO to adventure for a bit with the OotS until they achieve Epic levels (if they're not there already) to help them bind the Gates? Maybe leveling Vaarsuvius and Durkon, and hell, we already know of two other high-level casters that might be able to help: Miron, and maybe Laurin if psionics/magic transparency were applied to Epic research (likely to convince, even if dealing with them would be... unsavory).

>What would happen to the Monster in the Darkness?
I imagine that O-Chul would take him under his protection. And by "take him under his protection", I mean "continue mentoring him so he doesn't do anything illegal or Evil, thereby hurting others and/or the dozens, if not hundreds, of characters it would take to bring him in".

>What would happen to Azure City/Gobbotopia?
Assuming V held onto his Darth V powers after Xykon, and the "could make it last for weeks" line would allow Jephton and Ganonron to restore spells (holding onto the Splice is mentally strenuous; I imagine V could devote eight hours to ensuring J. and G. relax and get their spells back up), he could take the city back himself. Hell, he might've had the spell slots left over after defeating Xykon and Redcloak to kill a few hundred and let the rest flee!

>What would Suvie have done with nearly incomprehensible arcane power?
Probably pegged high-level targets of opportunity until they were out of slots above Vaarsuvius' normal capabilities, requested/blackmailed high-level arcane casters into sharing their libraries in exchange for knowledge (which V has a treasure trove of, being involved in many of the world's most important plots), dropped by Aarindarius' for a bit to get his likely selection of 7th-through-9th-level spells into a spellbook, then flown/'ported off to Roy if he's still in the field (else Durkon, else Haley, else on his own) to continue adventuring, which V would probably consider to be the best way to obtain knowledge and power after skyrocketing from mid-level to within striking distance of his master in about a year.

E: Derp, I forgot to mention that he'd probably drop the powers about when he got back to the elven lands.

>Most importantly, who would liberate Bloodfeast the Extreminator?
Honestly, he would either die of old age, or be killed (most likely by Roy, Vaarsuvius, or Durkon, in about that order). Belkar didn't have the time to establish a special connection, and Tarquin is at very very least competent at managing resources when he isn't breaking down.

[rodneyAnonymous]

>If he really wanted to, I'm sure he could've summoned up something from Ganonron's slots for divine magic--Death Ward in particular.

I believe part of the deal is the soul-spliced target can't reproduce divine magic by any means.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

I believe part of the deal is the soul-spliced target can't reproduce divine magic by any means.

Yep. "First, you won't be able to duplicate any divine magic, not even with a Wish or Limited Wish." "It's part of our non-compete clause with the evil gods."

[Katuko]

Looking over the spells that were cast, we see the following (and this has been said in threads as far back as 2009, as far as I can tell from a search :P):

- V does not use apply any extra buffs before leaving to fight Xykon. I don't really know which spells would have been useful that weren't already cast against the Black Dragon, though.
- Time Stop fails. It would have been useful to cast a bunch of spells without having anyone interfere, but since it was lost to Redcloak's runes we should probably just assume Time Stop would be lost no matter what.
- Chain Lightning does some damage to the goblins, but fails to affect Xykon at all. The primary purpose of Chain Lightning was to destroy the runes, though, which was a very good move.
- Xykon's Energy Drain removes several options. Whatever remaining Epic spells the splices had was lost here. Not something V could have handled, since rodneyAnonymous is probably correct in assuming Death Ward would be unavailable.
- Sunburst is a very good choice as well. More of those would be perfect. Still, it wouldn't do much unless it was Quickened, as it is after this round everything starts going downhill because Xykon uses another Energy Drain. (And Redcloak is still just standing there and could very well start healing Xykon.) I imagine that even if V had Death Ward and access to plenty of Empowered Sunburst spells, though, it still wouldn't be enough to out-damage the potential healing Xykon can receive.

Dimensional Anchor misses, and would have had no effect on the fight itself anyways. Bad choice. Crushing Hand is blown apart by Still Meteor Swarm (though it was a nice try), which seems to go through V's Protection from Fire as well. Next Disintegrate bounces off, whereas some unknown spell is countered by Xykon (we see their auras intersect). Finally Xykon dispels V's buffs and it is all over.

I think the single best thing a smart, thinking V could have done would be to wait for Durkon to finish resurrecting Roy, even if it meant incurring an extra 20 minutes with the fiends (10 for each remaining splice), and then accept some buffs from divine magic. Durkon could buff V and the others, and V could then teleport them all to Xykon's throne room. This would give them a much better chance of defeating him. If we assume Durkon does not have the spells for a boss fight ready, though, then solo V should at least have had Death Ward applied before going. Being level drained appears to be the single worst thing that happens to V, as it renders the Splices much less effective.



If Xykon was taken down quickly in this fight, though, I think V could have mopped the floor with the rest of the enemies in the tower. The newly arrived elven resistance did well against normal hobgoblin soldiers, so with Spliced V and some other allies there Gobbotopia would quickly be dismantled. I imagine a clear-headed V would have given up the splices once Xykon was permanently dead and they had run out of spells (maybe after using teleport a few more times to move the Order and other soldiers into strategically good positions), but even normal V is a force to be reckoned with.

The remaining gates could still be in danger. The threat of Xykon is what made the Order hurry to Girard's Gate, but even with him gone the Linear Guild would already be running around town asking questions. The Draketooth family would already be dead. When people go to check up on the gate, Tarquin would likely still move in with his army and cause trouble. I don't know how the Order would go about protecting them.

[Kish]

I believe Terrador is suggesting that Ganonron could have summoned a devil with divine spellcasting powers, and ordered it to buff them.

Failing that, however, Vaarsuvius could certainly have used their already active Shapechange spell to turn into an undead creature or a construct, and thus been immune to negative energy attacks.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

I believe Terrador is suggesting that Ganonron could have summoned a devil with divine spellcasting powers, and ordered it to buff them.

Failing that, however, Vaarsuvius could certainly have used their already active Shapechange spell to turn into an undead creature or a construct, and thus been immune to negative energy attacks.

Oh, yeah, that would make sense. And it shouldn't violate their clause either. The Shapechange would probably be even better.

[Terrador]

I believe Terrador is suggesting that Ganonron could have summoned a devil with divine spellcasting powers, and ordered it to buff them.

Failing that, however, Vaarsuvius could certainly have used their already active Shapechange spell to turn into an undead creature or a construct, and thus been immune to negative energy attacks.

I didn't think of the Shapechange, but aye. I would be highly surprised if Ganonron didn't prepare at very least Summon Monster IX, though I can't specifically name a spellcasting summon available to a wizard.

[Super Evil User]

There is a very good chance that Vaarsuvius could have beaten Xykon; however, doing so would have required him to act wildly out of character.

Imagine that you're V, and you've just saved your family from a high CR monster by killing it and its entire extended family. Would you be thinking rationally? No. You'd be high on your victory, drunk on your achievements and probably more than a little bit full of yourself.

[Darth Paul]

I would be highly surprised if Ganonron didn't prepare at very least Summon Monster IX, though I can't specifically name a spellcasting summon available to a wizard.

Gate in and control either a single creature whose HD does not exceed twice your caster level, or multiple creatures whose hit dice do not exceed your caster level. If the CL of the splice is taken as the effective CL, then we're in ArchDuke Of Hell territory here. (Assuming any named creatures owed him a favor and came through willingly; otherwise, just a huge badass devil or demon collection would do as well. And before anyone corrects me, I know named creatures can't be controlled.)


There is a very good chance that Vaarsuvius could have beaten Xykon; however, doing so would have required him to act wildly out of character.

Imagine that you're V, and you've just saved your family from a high CR monster by killing it and its entire extended family. Would you be thinking rationally? No. You'd be high on your victory, drunk on your achievements and probably more than a little bit full of yourself.

But that's the point of this thread; to ask "What If" Vaarsuvius had kept his wits, had planned ahead, had not given in to hubris (which you just very aptly described, thank you, I may use that wording on my players in the next campaign I run), had done even the minimum strategic and tactical planning beyond "I teleport in and I mess up Xykon, because I have Ultimate Arcane Power!!!"

In a way, we're like American Civil War historians (yes, I am one, in my spare time) asking, "What if Lee had pressed the attack on Day 1 at Gettysburg?" or, "What if McClellan had attacked Richmond instead of retreating during the Seven Days?" Yeah, we all know what actually happened, but some of us are addicted to debating and discussing "Where did so-and-so go wrong, and how would everything after that point have turned out differently?"

We might just as well start a thread called, "What If Xykon Had Gone After The Other Gates, Instead of Conquering Azure City?" just to keep things even-handed and give the villians a chance!

[Jaxzan Proditor]

We might just as well start a thread called, "What If Xykon Had Gone After The Other Gates, Instead of Conquering Azure City?" just to keep things even-handed and give the villians a chance!

We should, actually, because that sounds like it could be a very interesting thread.

[Reddish Mage]

In a way, we're like American Civil War historians (yes, I am one, in my spare time) asking, "What if Lee had pressed the attack on Day 1 at Gettysburg?" or, "What if McClellan had attacked Richmond instead of retreating during the Seven Days?" Yeah, we all know what actually happened, but some of us are addicted to debating and discussing "Where did so-and-so go wrong, and how would everything after that point have turned out differently?"

We might just as well start a thread called, "What If Xykon Had Gone After The Other Gates, Instead of Conquering Azure City?" just to keep things even-handed and give the villians a chance!

I think alternative history is very interesting, especially to see that some battles, and perhaps some wars, could have easily gone differently.

This story, not so much. In particular, the possibility that Xykon got killed by Darth V was real from an in universe perspective, but we don't know much about the other powers after the gate, so we cannot see envision how they would move. Team evil would be descimated but it is possible Vaarsuvius could spare Redcloak not seeing him as worth the time, then we'd see an interesting dynamic with Redcloak forced into going in on his own, perhaps doing a whole lot better after losing Xykon and no longer playing number 2. Perhaps Redclaok would even have to balance the Gate business with actually being a leader of the goblin people.

I speculate it is truly impossible for V to hold on to the soul splice indefinitely. Sure, if V could do that V could threaten the fiends, the gods and anything else. However, those that think a souled up epic wizard can solo a pack of gods are forgetting that, whatever powers a soul-spliced wizard has, the gods have plus a bunch of cool godly ones and millinia to plan for a mortal wizard's attack.

If V were to attempt to hold on, he would go after the fiends next, as a way to get out of the bargain and get rid of an even larger threat. She would fail.

[137beth]

Gate in and control either a single creature whose HD does not exceed twice your caster level, or multiple creatures whose hit dice do not exceed your caster level. If the CL of the splice is taken as the effective CL, then we're in ArchDuke Of Hell territory here. (Assuming any named creatures owed him a favor and came through willingly; otherwise, just a huge badass devil or demon collection would do as well. And before anyone corrects me, I know named creatures can't be controlled.)


Gate? What gate?

[Reddish Mage]

We might just as well start a thread called, "What If Xykon Had Gone After The Other Gates, Instead of Conquering Azure City?" just to keep things even-handed and give the villians a chance!

That's easy, he showed up at Girard's gate and gets trounced by the fully prepared Draketooth family...or more likely (undead vs. illusionists, illusion has some major glaring weaknesses) he trounces them and wins while the OOTS muck around in the desert going after the bogus coordinates. Incidentally, does anyone think its odd that most of what Ochul said here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0545.html)was right on the money? Also, how did he know about the diary?

[Keltest]

That's easy, he showed up at Girard's gate and gets trounced by the fully prepared Draketooth family...or more likely (undead vs. illusionists, illusion has some major glaring weaknesses) he trounces them and wins while the OOTS muck around in the desert going after the bogus coordinates. Incidentally, does anyone think its odd that most of what Ochul said here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0545.html)was right on the money? Also, how did he know about the diary?

Presumably he saw or was told about it at some point.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Presumably he saw or was told about it at some point.

Yeah, Redcloak doesn't look shocked or anything that he knows about, so chances are Xykon showed him it or something similar.

[137beth]

It's not like Xykon was making much of an effort to hide it. He did show it to the MitD, after all.
And on the off chance that O-Chul never saw it, he could have heard about it from the MitD.

[dtilque]

Incidentally, does anyone think its odd that most of what Ochul said here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0545.html)was right on the money?

Actually, I expected ti to be perfectly on the money. It seems to be a common trope, where someone in O-chul's position, not knowing the true state of affairs, makes up something to deceive and then it turns out to be exactly right. I can't remember any specific cases of this, but no doubt tvtropes has something.

But he was only about half right. What he said was

Girard's gate is protect by an elaborate maze, hidden with mighty illusions, and sealed from all forms of magical intrusion. Only by answering the riddles can one reach the center, but the answers to the riddles are encoded in that diary that Xycon carries with him.

1) Maze - right
2) illusions - right
3) sealed from magical intrusion - we didn't see this. The place was definitely not dimensionally locked, since Z was able to teleport out of it. Furthermore, the Draketeeth would have had to use Dimension Door to access the secret passages.
4) riddles - didn't see any, unless you count the runes in the passage or the traps on the door. But the runes, at any rate, didn't seem to be the kind of trap where an answer to a riddle would work. The traps on the door, perhaps.
5) riddle answers encoded in the diary - don't know.

OK, the dimensional locking may not have been permanent, but rather periodically renewed. In which case it would likely have worn off in a couple weeks. But the Draketeeth still would have to leave at least some of it unlocked to use DD. Or perhaps they only D-locked the room with the gate was in plus the outer room and left the rest unlocked.

[Kish]

Which comes to, in essence, "He took what he knew, illusions, and made up a lot of stuff, one part of which--the maze he described--wasn't completely wrong, in that there was a maze."

[Keltest]

Which comes to, in essence, "He took what he knew, illusions, and made up a lot of stuff, one part of which--the maze he described--wasn't completely wrong, in that there was a maze."

He actually described what we *know* of the defenses almost perfectly. The only thing we don't know is if there were anything in the defenses to protect against teleportation (we know the gate was surrounded by lead to prevent intrusion that way) and if any of the spells involved riddles. Ill admit, the riddles sound kind of dumb, in the sense that it implies that there is a way for the intruder to get through on his own (unless the riddle was a shell con and was really just designed to misdirect from a real password unrelated to the riddle) but everything else was fairly accurate.

[Reddish Mage]

Ill admit, the riddles sound kind of dumb, in the sense that it implies that there is a way for the intruder to get through on his own (unless the riddle was a shell con and was really just designed to misdirect from a real password unrelated to the riddle) but everything else was fairly accurate.

The shell con sounds exactly like the sort of thing Girard would do.