Can damned souls be rescued from the Lower Planes?

[tadkins]

An evil warrior was killed in battle by goodly heroes, and her soul was sent to the Nine Hells/the Abyss/some other plane of nastiness.

A close friend of this warrior, a powerful wizard who is well-versed in planar affairs and how the afterlife works, decides he will not have any of this. He believes that such a warrior, while evil, had a noble heart of sorts, and deserves a far better fate than to be bartered as currency by fiends and hags, rendered down into soul-energy and left a husk. He puts his foot down and decides to act, undertaking a quest to rescue his friend from the clutches of the lower planes, vowing to tear the cosmos themselves asunder to get her back if necessary.

Assuming that a raising isn't really in the question, would it be possible to simply wrest a specific soul from the lower planes? If so, are there ways to keep this soul protected from fiendish agents trying to get it back? Maybe crafting it some kind of vessel to inhabit?

[Kane0]

It seems a perfectly legitimate plot arc, though don't expect it to be easy.

The first complication i see is that of time. You only have a limited window before the departed soul (depending on cosmology) is judged and moved to their respective plane and then reduced to petitioner form or otherwise changed or destroyed.

Second to that, you'd have to locate him specifically. The planes can be a big and diverse place, and he could have gone to one of any number of locations. So you have to find him and get to him.

Now the vast majority of souls in the lower planes are under somebodies control, if not used as currency outright. So once you locate him you will have to deal with his owner, and come to some sort of arrangement without losing something equally nasty such as your own soul.

Finally, getting him back to 'life'. Once made a petitioner or otherwise reached his afterlife destination, resurrection becomes extremely difficult. If he has taken the form of an evil outsider it is likely outright impossible. So getting him back to the prime might be a new story entirely depending on how you went on the above steps.

But all in all its possible, if you act fast. Imagine some on the fly detective work followed by a frantic chase through the planes before you end up at a fiendish bazaar haggling desperately for a former comrade about to be exchanged for a case of devilweed or somesuch. Such a plot arc may not even include the typical amounts of combat common to most D&D games.

Edit: Ideas for if you should obtain him:
- Organise a new form for him to inhabit, possibly from the lower planes while your there
- Organise a return to his prior body, possibly by dealing with an appropriate deity
- Organise a way for him to return without a body, possibly soem intangible form
- Bind him to something, it could be like a phylactery or a magic item, granting it his sentience

[jiriku]

This is the stuff of an epic adventure. Traditionally, the only thing necessary to secure the dead soul is to return it to the realm of the living. Planar travel gets you a new body made from local (non-extraplanar) matter. The real trick is, when the evil person dies again, it's right back to the Abyss with her unless she's substantially changed her ways. For this reason, the fiendish agents aren't likely to try to get the soul back; they know it's most likely coming back to them on its own, given a little time. Now, if the soul isn't rebodied and restored to life, that's another story. Such a soul is not headed back to the lower planes as long as its stored in whatever receptacle it occupies, and demons will definitely be interested in reacquiring such a soul. This is exactly the thing that mortal pawns and minions are useful for, however. Its unlikely (though not impossible) that a single individual soul is valuable enough to inspire a demonic manhunt on the prime material plane in order to get it back.

Of course, I'm assuming here that there's a compelling reason why the wizard doesn't simply arrange for an allied cleric to cast raise dead.

[facelessminion]

A question: Just how powerful was this warrior?

Because if they were strong enough, the easiest way to get them back into the Prime Material... may just be to Gate or Planar Ally them in once they're done becoming one of the higher-tier outsiders.

[tadkins]

Hm, you guys have some good points. The more I think about it, I do wonder why it wouldn't be simply easier to get a Raise Dead going.

Then again, if she was brought back to life, and later killed again, we'd be back at square one, right? Perhaps the wizard wants to find a way for his friend to keep her soul secured in some kind of receptacle so that it can't be used by the fiends for their purposes. He doesn't want to see them use his friend as money or power.

I was personally thinking of some kind of golem or statue to store the soul in. It would in fact be a valuable soul I think; the soul in question was essentially the right-hand woman of the main BBEG (a godlike being similar to Darkseid) in a story arc I have, and a very high level warblade. Would that warrant the effort needed by fiends to reclaim it?

[facelessminion]

If their boss is near godlike in power, would their boss be willing to help in yoinking the minion's soul from the lower planes?

[tadkins]

If their boss is near godlike in power, would their boss be willing to help in yoinking the minion's soul from the lower planes?

The boss was destroyed at the end of the story arc. xD

[facelessminion]

The boss was destroyed at the end of the story arc. xD

Oh, welp. :x

I can't help but feel that trying to also siphon up some of the dead godling's power, and bring the warrior back as a demigod, would be appropriate. (Not sure on specifics, but then this is all in 'talk with your DM' territory anyway.)

[ShurikVch]

In the Savage Tide adventure path, death knight Vanthus Vanderboren
http://img1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20080218053355/scratchpad/images/3/38/08_itM_06.jpg
was destroyed, and his soul turned into larva. http://img4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20080528041610/scratchpad/images/4/4e/12_09.jpg
He can be revived via Wish, Miracle, True Resurrection (or just regular Resurrection, if you recovered his body)

[jiriku]

Hm, you guys have some good points. The more I think about it, I do wonder why it wouldn't be simply easier to get a Raise Dead going.

Then again, if she was brought back to life, and later killed again, we'd be back at square one, right? Perhaps the wizard wants to find a way for his friend to keep her soul secured in some kind of receptacle so that it can't be used by the fiends for their purposes. He doesn't want to see them use his friend as money or power.

I was personally thinking of some kind of golem or statue to store the soul in. It would in fact be a valuable soul I think; the soul in question was essentially the right-hand woman of the main BBEG (a godlike being similar to Darkseid) in a story arc I have, and a very high level warblade. Would that warrant the effort needed by fiends to reclaim it?

Okay, now here you've got good stuff. Putting a soul into a construct, in such a way that the soul's original memories and personality are retained, is hard. It's easy to say that having the soul at hand in a gem or somesuch is necessary to pull it off. Further, making an epic-level construct could take months or years (crafting a magic item only produces 1000 gp of value per day, and constructs appropriate to a soul of that power could easily be worth hundreds of thousands of gp). Souls lose their connection to their living existence over time -- it might be a good idea to go fetch her soul NOW rather than wait a year or more to finish the construct. Thats plenty of motivation for the wizard to get his butt down to the lower planes and do some soul-hunting.

And yes, the soul of an incredibly powerful lieutenant of a demigod, someone who's committed terrible crimes during her life, and is now ensconced within an immortal construct body and will never return to the lower planes until the construct is destroyed -- that's sufficient motivation for fiends to try to reclaim her.

[tadkins]

Oh, welp. :x

I can't help but feel that trying to also siphon up some of the dead godling's power, and bring the warrior back as a demigod, would be appropriate. (Not sure on specifics, but then this is all in 'talk with your DM' territory anyway.)

The story surrounding it is entirely mine, and one I would like to end up presenting as a DM one day. If I weren't scared and reluctant to try my hand at DMing, anyway. xD

While thinking on the story the question popped into my head, and I was wondering how something like this might get solved, hence the post. I think at this point in the aftermath of the events that took place, the wizard would be reluctant to associate with anything regarding his former boss. Especially trying to siphon his remaining power; believing such magic is foul, corrupting, and just generally bad news for anything involved.

[tadkins]

Okay, now here you've got good stuff. Putting a soul into a construct, in such a way that the soul's original memories and personality are retained, is hard. It's easy to say that having the soul at hand in a gem or somesuch is necessary to pull it off. Further, making an epic-level construct could take months or years (crafting a magic item only produces 1000 gp of value per day, and constructs appropriate to a soul of that power could easily be worth hundreds of thousands of gp). Souls lose their connection to their living existence over time -- it might be a good idea to go fetch her soul NOW rather than wait a year or more to finish the construct. Thats plenty of motivation for the wizard to get his butt down to the lower planes and do some soul-hunting.

And yes, the soul of an incredibly powerful lieutenant of a demigod, someone who's committed terrible crimes during her life, and is now ensconced within an immortal construct body and will never return to the lower planes until the construct is destroyed -- that's sufficient motivation for fiends to try to reclaim her.

The wizard is a skilled stonecutter and jewelcrafter, he'd definitely work on something fitting for his friend. Perhaps an animated stone construct that closely matched her form in life? The soul hunt could make a fun adventure I think; the wizard would probably hire the PCs for assistance.

Thanks for your responses everyone. :) Off to bed, will be back later!

[MrNobody]

Without the resurrection option or any other high magic easy plan, the travel to hell to bring back the warrior's soul his a great classic of fantasy and mythologies, and a really cool idea.
It could and should be possible to rescue the soul of the warrior but, as just note, this should be an epic campaign, where the adventuring wizard must be ready to face the worst of the worst that the lower planes can offer.

Nevertheless, i feel that "stealing" the soul from the archdevils would be only a temporary solution: if the warrior was evil enough (despite his noble heart) to go to hell and if in his second life he will continue with his previous habit, it's almost certain that when he will die again he will go back to hell, with an even worst punishment for escaping once.

An almost permanent wayout to the problem that i see would require a travel in the opposite direction. The wizard could want to travel up the Upper planes to talk to the Gods of good and justice, persuade them that his friends is worth for a second chance and have him raised as an Hellbred (fiendish codex 2, p.77).
This would requiire a bit of homebrew on the fluff of the race (Hellbreds are required to repent, not to have somone intercede for them) but could work nicely and make an equally epic quest.

[jiriku]

The lower planes are dangerous. It's always useful to have some chumps PCs around as bodyguards to take hits for you. Or he might need more substantial help from them; perhaps he researches a new spell that can deflect attention from greater fiendish powers, but requires continual concentration. He'd be very limited in what he could do, and would have to lean heavily on PCs for help.

If the wizard has ranks in stonecutting and gemcutting (and of course, a high Int bonus to improve his roll as well), then he can definitely pimp her ride. Crafting the actual construct is a snap: it takes just a few rounds to cast fabricate and make the body. It takes longer to collect all the materials (he can save time by hiring PCs to get the fabled Gems of Sparkliness, or ambush the mithril brick convoy or something) than it does to make the thing. However, enchanting it will take forever -- and during that time he's sharply limited in what he can do, so he's again likely to rely on hired help.

[khadgar567]

sorry but if warrior is enough powerful why he just start massacre in lower plane which ends up some archfiend recruits him so in the long end he reseurects in a demon form( maybe killing the his boss to free himself) while wizard just sits and escort his friends promotion in evil hierarcy

[Warlocknthewind]

Find out specifically which Duke, Prince, or Lord has taken posession of her soul, and make a bet. If you truly believe she is noble at heart, that is.

Bet your own soul with his to have her return, fully restored, as a Hellborn (Fiendish Codex II).

Plot and slay said Evil Patron, freeing your friend's soul and yours :D

You are a wizard, afterall.

[jiriku]

sorry but if warrior is enough powerful why he just start massacre in lower plane which ends up some archfiend recruits him so in the long end he reseurects in a demon form( maybe killing the his boss to free himself) while wizard just sits and escort his friends promotion in evil hierarcy

Being dead makes this impossible. There are about six different reasons why. Also it is much more fun to go rescue a lost soul than to sit at home doing nothing while the lost soul rescues itself.

[Brookshw]

sorry but if warrior is enough powerful why he just start massacre in lower plane which ends up some archfiend recruits him so in the long end he reseurects in a demon form( maybe killing the his boss to free himself) while wizard just sits and escort his friends promotion in evil hierarcy

Petitioners; you can't take it with you.

[Phelix-Mu]

It's DM fiat just what happens during the judgment process and the afterlife. It is established fact in numerous places that just being awesome/powerful/influential/virtuous/sinful/lawful/anarchic doesn't really have anything to do with the form taken in the afterlife. It may or it may not; Vanthus above is a good example. The vast majority of everyone just ends up as petitioners of one sort or another (and larvae being one of the common types of evil petitioners, though maybe not strictly the same).

Also, even the powerful may find that, in their afterlife incarnation, they have been all but entirely stripped of memories and personality, becoming more of a cookie-cutter petitioner of x. Only the most epically dire of souls manage to keep themselves together, usually either as reward for extreme virtue/service (like being assumed whole into Heaven), or by near-mad obsession with themselves (usually a manifestation of the basest evil). It can't be said enough, however, that there is no guarantee of this beyond plot convenience (and therefor DM fiat).

Considerations:

1.) Devotion to a God/Religion: Gods and goddesses or other powers of the planes can yank their loyal worshipers out of the default system. Warning: In the default setting, the fate of the souls of worshipers is generally eventual merging with their god, which is supposedly something that such a worshiper would enjoy/aspire to, but which nevertheless basically results in being sucked up into a the mega-soul of the deity or something, never to return (though a deity could easily cough the soul back up, I suppose, being a deity).

2.) Contracts/Arrangements with Outsiders: Yeah, most of these are honored to one degree or another, especially those that trade one's soul for power, resulting in damnation. Arrangements with the powers of good/law/chaos are not unheard of, but much more subject to DM adjudication due to lack of RAW examples of how they are resolved/avoided/honored.

Alright, so now to address things that might happen:

- Spectres in Dis: Some very evil people end up as a kind of undead wandering Dis (second layer of the Nine Hells), though by fluff I believe it's usually people that realized they were damned, but too late to seek redemption before dying (and thus are filled with particularly delicious angst/hope unfulfilled/regret). I believe there are plausibly other places where stuff like this happens, and souls end up shunted just to the side of the normal cycle of soul->petitioner->merge with plane/turn into baseline outsider. Warning: These spectres are not really better off than their counterparts used as larva/Blood War fodder/torture subject/short-term amusement by fiends, but they may retain a more intact version of their memories.

- Direct to Undead: Some souls spontaneously animate as undead. Mohrgs and wraiths are two examples given of evil people that refuse to stay dead. Still, the process usually leaves them even more twisted than before; death and undeath are pretty much static states that are hard for the average psyche to cope with, so the person tends to stereotypical evil as per MM entries, with individuality once again at the DM's behest.

- Frankenstein: Like the golem suggestion, there are ways to avoid death available by DM arrangement.

- Immortality: These don't avoid death by mishap/misadventure, but they do prevent the normal dying. Undeath, outsider status explicitly avoiding death, possible fey/elemental immortality (the RAW is usually vague here...some DMs interpret type change to remove aging limits), and so forth. There is an Immortal's Handbook around here somewhere. Search this site, I guess.

Anyway, as DM, there is lots of leeway to come up with something interesting. From a player perspective, the RAW is much bleaker; away from the normal back-to-life stuff, there isn't much to be had.

[tadkins]

It's all DM fiat then for the most part?

I was thinking of writing the story so that the soul was left wallowing in the despair and gloom of the realm of Hades. Powerless, alone, and left to dwell on the events that brought her there. Would give the wizard and whoever he hires plenty of time to find it, and present plenty of challenge making their way through the plane.

[Phelix-Mu]

It's all DM fiat then for the most part?

I was thinking of writing the story so that the soul was left wallowing in the despair and gloom of the realm of Hades. Powerless, alone, and left to dwell on the events that brought her there. Would give the wizard and whoever he hires plenty of time to find it, and present plenty of challenge making their way through the plane.

Npcs, and dead pcs, are npcs, and DMs are given pretty wide latitude with what mechanics exactly govern their function outside of combat and their class levels. The afterlife is well outside of this area; aside from quasi-settings like Ghostwalk and such, things like character death pretty much render that character part of plot events from then on, no longer dependent on their precise mechanics in as strict a manner as when they were alive/in the spotlight.

While the feeling of solitude brought on by evil in Hades is often profound, it can also be illusory. While being truly alone is good torment, so is making someone think they are alone while prodding them silently into further despair, self-pity, and general wallowing. It might be nothing more than a spirit of some kind, impersonating the warrior's conscience, helping the warrior realize the true scope of the badness they wrought upon their victims, staving off thoughts of hope or salvation, and generally promoting an air of damnation.

Good work if you can get it.

[tadkins]

Good work if you can get it.

Sounds like those video game challenges where a player encounters an illusion of someone they know, only to have it look up at them blankly and then dissipate into a group of monsters the player has to fight. xD

[Slipperychicken]

I'd rule this epic quest as such: Our would-be rescuer would need to barter, sneak, and fight his way through each layer of hell, face all manner of hellish obstacles and enemies, locate and identify the desired soul from a heap of countless billions, snatch his target from the hungry maw of Satan himself, and then repeat the whole journey in reverse, fighting his way back out of hell with a soul in tow and the devil on his heels. Such a venture would be foolish and suicidal: practically guaranteed to fail. The wizard would not merely risk his life, but his soul as well: if he's killed in hell, he stays in hell.


It's all DM fiat then for the most part?

Pretty much. Each GM has his own interpretation of the afterlife.

[Phelix-Mu]

Pretty iconic that the evil thing impersonates your better self to convince you that you are really a piece of trash that can never be redeemed. Evil always feels more evil when it's cosplaying as good.

Alternatively, this may just be a passive effect of the plane; Hades sucks out a person's propensity to grow or change away from evil (minimal in evil, dead people to begin with), entrapping even the non-evil in evil's self-perpetuating nature.

[JusticeZero]

How much variation in this is there between existing settings, without allowing another setting (generally planescape) to trump them?

[Phelix-Mu]

Don't know much about Eberron, but FR is more about the god you worship; but even there, fates aren't particularly desirable for the living. Death and the afterlife aren't particularly glorious by many standards; typically one loses variation and individuality in exchange for a setting that allows one to iconically represent whatever it was that one stood for in life. Certainly this is the case in the default (Greyhawk) setting. Planescape is largely an extrapolation of this, with more room for denizens of the planes that are mortals still living (as opposed to the deceased), and more expansion of factions in favor of the various ethoi of the planes (a la Sigil). I'm really not an expert (but I can fake it pretty well :smallwink: ).

Don't live on Athas.

Krynn, from my recollections of 2e, wasn't much off from Oerth, but with more emphasis on the moral axis than the ethical one (as per the colors of magic, dragon-influenced setting).

No idea about Mystara or any of the more eclectic settings.

[Twilightwyrm]

I actually have a question on this topic: how exactly is it determined exactly which of the outer planes a soul goes to upon death? I mean, if the person worship a deity, they will go to their realm if they are sufficiently faithful (great way of getting out of eternal damnation by the way). And if (let's assume we are on the evil axis for a moment) the person is chaotic evil or lawful evil, we can assume they will be going to the abyss or baator respectively. But say they are neutral evil...are they automatically going to Hades? How would a soul get sent, for example, to Carceri (basically a prison plane, so where to the prisoners come from?) or Gehenna instead? And indeed, is it even just evil individuals? DMG 162 says "Sometimes, the souls of creatures that have died particularly tragic deaths comes here, rather than traveling onward to their final reward." Do certain planes exert more "attraction" and thus become the default destination for (at least evil) souls?

[hamishspence]

MoTP mentions that yugoloths also make contracts with mortals.

p114:
"Each contract is inscribed on the living skin of a petitioner, burned in with magic and branding irons. Petitioners are strung on chains like popcorn on a string for miles in perpetual lines of agony. The only thing on the mind of any given petitioner is its own particular contract and its perpetual pain."

For Carceri:

p104:
"The exiled, the shunned, and the defeated are sent here, as are traitors, backstabbers, and the souls of those with underhanded ambition."

[Wacky89]

The Warrior will go to the City of the Dead before going anywhere

Here, the warrior gets alot of offers from alot of devils, to make a deal simply. He becomes the lowest form of devil and can work his way up.
Otherwise normally if he doesnt think his god will punish him forever, if his god agrees with what he has done in his life then he would probably just go to his gods plane.
If he already had sold his soul to a demon/devil, then he's pretty screwed as he will be a devil/demon by now. That will make it very hard to retrieve him, but I guess a true ress have a 50% chance to work.

So it's all up to the situation he's in.

[khadgar567]

The Warrior will go to the City of the Dead before going anywhere

Here, the warrior gets alot of offers from alot of devils, to make a deal simply. He becomes the lowest form of devil and can work his way up.
Otherwise normally if he doesnt think his god will punish him forever, if his god agrees with what he has done in his life then he would probably just go to his gods plane.
If he already had sold his soul to a demon/devil, then he's pretty screwed as he will be a devil/demon by now. That will make it very hard to retrieve him, but I guess a true ress have a 50% chance to work.

So it's all up to the situation he's in.
this is actualy what I ment by starting massacre because this fallows by some chance ( hope warrior is lucky enough so 1 option apears

[Jergmo]

If it's a powerful evil warrior, why shouldn't the evil powers that be want it to continue? +1 for slapping on the Fiendish template and Gating in your buddy. Turning a warrior of power into a Lemure would be foolish.

[Phelix-Mu]

If it's a powerful evil warrior, why shouldn't the evil powers that be want it to continue? +1 for slapping on the Fiendish template and Gating in your buddy. Turning a warrior of power into a Lemure would be foolish.

Except that infinite and malevolent forces of the universe don't play favorites. Every level 10 plus character looks big on the Prime, and can swing equal to their weight just fine. But even when a level 20 arch-evil tyrant dies, he's going to join an endless series of other people just like him that existed at some time or other, somewhere. And the fiends don't care. Mortal evil is tainted by things like hope and redemption, always possible while one yet lives. To play ball in the planes, you need to start from scratch and win the lottery, in all but the most rare of cases.

In short, yeah, it is wasteful to curbstomp the high-level bastard down to lemure. But they have an endless supply of people just as bastardish anyway, so they can afford to be wasteful. Plus mortal souls can't transition directly to fiend anyway, as fiends aren't formed that way, generally speaking. The infinite evil of the Lower Planes uses mortals as currency, even the high-level ones; they don't need subsidies from the Prime to help pad their purchasing power in the game they literally invented, and so mortals are pawns. Of course, it suits the fiends to let the mortals believe otherwise.

[Bronk]

It's good to remember that devils, at least, usually grind up those powerful souls for power, providing some explanation for why not every powerful evil dude gets deluxe fiendish treatment.

Considering the opening post though, have you considered using a weapon made from thinaun to get them out of there? A weapon made from that metal traps the soul of beings it kills within the blade. You could quest to find or make such a weapon, then storm the gates of wherever the soul is in the afterlife, stab him (possibly just touch him) to get him into the weapon, then skedaddle. He would be 'saved', and you could figure out what to do with him later... even use 'raise dead' on him.

[Shining Wrath]

I guess I wonder how you're going to distinguish this soul from all the other souls queued up for judgement.

[Bronk]

Well, they look as they did in life, so you could just look for them normally.

Pre-judgement, they also have all their old memories, so you could call out to them by name too.

Otherwise you could use magic like 'find the path', or other, lower level spells like commune, to narrow their location down.

[illyahr]

Look into the stories of Orpheus or Izanagi. Both descended into the underworld to rescue a soul. Both of them failed, which also tells you how difficult it should be.

[Slipperychicken]

If it's a powerful evil warrior, why shouldn't the evil powers that be want it to continue? +1 for slapping on the Fiendish template and Gating in your buddy. Turning a warrior of power into a Lemure would be foolish.

A few possible reasons:

They're not allowed to do that (the Pact Primeval or similar agreement could be involved, or it could be part of their duties to make sure the dead stay dead)
They're not able to do that.
It costs too much resources (whether it be an archfiend's time, the warrior's potential as a devil, the sustenance his soul would give to the cause, or relations in cosmic politics)
The warrior isn't sufficiently loyal to the forces of hell, meaning that investment could backfire easily (that is, something like Spawn might happen, where he got demonic powers and rebelled against hell). Having the same alignment doesn't mean you're on the same side.
Whichever devil would need to authorize this would be making a huge gamble with his infernal career: Either the warrior becomes a loyal servant and the devil looks better to his superiors, or the warrior doesn't obey orders, making the devil look like an idiot for wasting resources, damaging both his credibility and his prospects for advancement.