Bloodstorm Blade help

[AvatarVecna]

So, I took this question to the general Q&A board, but the answer I got seemed a bit off. Since I don't want any issues with the moderators for debating RAW/RAI, I thought Id make the question into it's own thread. Other questions have presented themselves as well, so I'll include them.


Thunderous Throw (Ex): Beginning at 2nd level, you build up incredible tension as you ready yourself to throw your weapon, which becomes visible around you like heat waves. When you release your weapon, that power rushes out with your weapon. As a swift action, you can choose to treat your ranged attack rolls with thrown weapons as melee attacks for the rest of your turn. You use your melee attack bonus, including Strength bonus, feats, and so forth, to determine your attack bonus for each attack as normal, but you apply the standard modifiers for range penalties. Attacking into melee, through cover, and so forth incurs the standard penalties. In addition, you can apply 1-1/2 times your Strength bonus to damage if you wield the thrown weapon with two hands, and you can use Power Attack with your thrown weapon attacks (adding two times the number subtracted from attack rolls as a bonus on damage rolls when throwing a twohanded weapon).

The Bloodstorm Blade class ability Thunderous Throw (detailed above) allows the PC to spend a swift action to make all ranged attacks with thrown weapons for the rest of the round count as melee attacks. It does NOT say you use your melee roll for ranged attacks, it says you make ranged attacks into melee attacks. So, let's say a Bloodstorm Blade has gained the pounce ability.

Question 1:

Can I charge or pounce with thrown weapons?

Anybody can charge; they take a full round action to double move and make a single melee attack at a +2 attack and a -2 AC. Someone with the pounce ability can full attack at the end of their charge. Under the normal rules, this means that, since you can mix melee and ranged attacks in a full attack, that under the normal rules, you can pounce, make a single melee attack and the rest are ranged. It should be noted that the charge ability does not require you to be adjacent to the enemy you're attacking; it requires you to move to the closest square that you can attack the opponent from.

Since, with Thunderous Throw, all thrown weapon ranged attacks count as melee attacks, I don't see why I can't.


Question 2:

What feats apply to my thrown weapons while using Thunderous Throw?

According to Thunderous Throw (detailed above), melee-specific feats can be used with thrown weapons. It even mentions Power Attack specifically. So something like Melee Weapon Mastery can work. My question is more about other feats: things like Far Shot and Rapid Shot and Ranged Weapon Mastery. Are those still in effect? The text seems to imply that they're not, since you're not making ranged attack rolls anymore; you're making melee attacks with a range increment. On the other hand, certain ranged-only penalties still apply to these attacks, implying that, in certain ways, they still function as ranged attacks. Thoughts?


Question 3:

By RAW, can I make AoOs within throwing range?

By RAW, you can make an AoO whenever someone moves out of, or performs a distracting action within, your threatened area, as long as you're wielding a melee weapon. Thunderous Throw lets you count them as melee attacks, but not melee weapon; on the other hand, Bloodstorm Blade also gives you the Throw Anything feat, allowing you to count all weapons as thrown weapons, including melee only weapons. Furthermore, this is almost entirely moot if Thunderous Throw doesn't last beyond the end of your actions: the text doesn't say "until the end of your turn" or "until the beginning of your next turn", it says "for the rest of your turn" without specifying when exactly that would end. I don't know how applicable this would be to my build, and I'm not exactly counting on it, but I'd appreciate the clarification.


All responses are appreciated. Thanks!

[Firechanter]

Hi!
I once played a Warbie/BSB and made use of pretty much everything you asked:

1. yes you can perform a ranged charge; with leap attack and everything.

2. yes most feats apply, including Far Shot. Tip: also get gloves of extended range.

3. Here I have to slow you down a bit: you can perform AoOs only against Threatened squares. Thunderous Throw works only during your _turn_, and AoOs are by definition always made out of turn. So you still dont threaten at range.

[AvatarVecna]

Hi!
I once played a Warbie/BSB and made use of pretty much everything you asked:

1. yes you can perform a ranged charge; with leap attack and everything.

2. yes most feats apply, including Far Shot. Tip: also get gloves of extended range.

3. Here I have to slow you down a bit: you can perform AoOs only against Threatened squares. Thunderous Throw works only during your _turn_, and AoOs are by definition always made out of turn. So you still dont threaten at range.

As stated, I wasn't intending to take advantage of this myself, I just came across it during my research. I will point out that Robiliar's Gambit works with this, although it would work anyway, even without this, since it doesn't specify melee attacks or ranged limits.

Thanks for the info!

[heavyfuel]

What was "off" about my answer? It's Q&A by RAW, and the RAW clearly says that what you change is the ranged attack roll, not the ranged attack.


As a swift action, you can choose to treat your ranged attack rolls with thrown weapons as melee attacks for the rest of your turn.

See that? As clear as day that it's the attack roll that's treated as melee, not the attack entirely.

These are very different things. From the WotC's glossary and SRD.



To make an attack roll, roll 1d20 and add the appropriate modifiers for the attack type, as follows: melee attack roll = 1d20 + base attack bonus + Strength modifier + size modifier; ranged attack roll = 1d20 + base attack bonus + Dexterity modifier + size modifier + range penalty.




With a ranged weapon, you can shoot or throw at any target that is within the weapon’s maximum range and in line of sight. The maximum range for a thrown weapon is five range increments. For projectile weapons, it is ten range increments. Some ranged weapons have shorter maximum ranges, as specified in their descriptions.

Because of your Throw Anything feat that every BS Blade gets, you can, and I quote "throw a melee weapon you are proficient with as if it were a ranged weapon"

So they are ranged attacks, and therefore use the ranged attack roll rule (1d20+BAB+Dex+Others+RangePenalty)

In no point in the Thuderous Throw description says the attack is now a melee attack. Well, they do say that, but they do when talking about the Ranged Attack Roll. You know why? Cuz if it were a proper Melee Attack, it would as dysfunctional as it can be, because:



With a normal melee weapon, you can strike any opponent within 5 feet. (Opponents within 5 feet are considered adjacent to you.) Some melee weapons have reach, as indicated in their descriptions. With a typical reach weapon, you can strike opponents 10 feet away, but you can’t strike adjacent foes (those within 5 feet).

Ta dah! You can't hit enemies beyond 5ft (or beyond 10 if you wield a reach weapon).

You see, it makes zero sense treating it as melee attack (not roll). They even go out their way to say it's not an actual melee attack when they tell you about Power Attack usage and getting 1.5 Str bonus. It would be redundant to say these things if they were melee attacks (not rolls).

Also, take a look at the feats you pointed out:


When you use a thrown weapon, its range increment is doubled.

You get a +1 bonus on attack and damage rolls with ranged weapons at ranges of up to 30 feet.

Because you're still making Ranged Attacks (using your melee attack rolls) you use only feats that apply to ranged weapons like Far Shot and Point Blank Shot, so Melee Weapon Mastery doesn't work if you're using the weapon as throw one, but Ranged Weapon Mastery will. You also won't be able to attack at the end of your charge by throwing your weapon, not even with Thunderous Throw.

As for your AoO question:


You threaten all squares into which you can make a melee attack, even when it is not your action. An enemy that takes certain actions while in a threatened square provokes an attack of opportunity from you. If you’re unarmed, you don’t normally threaten any squares and thus can’t make attacks of opportunity.

You can still make them, but only in the squares adjacent to you, or 10ft away if you're with a reach weapon.

Note that if you end your turn without the weapon in hand, you can't make AoO because you'd be unarmed. The Lightning Ricochet ability counters that, but the Returning Attacks one don't.

You cannot make AoO against anyone within range because, again, you're not making melee attacks, you're making ranged attacks with melee attack rolls. Despite what Firechanter said, if someone readies an action to cast a spell when you begin throwing, even if they don't do it defensively, you won't be able make an AoO against them.

[AvatarVecna]

I meant no offense, but I noticed that debate was discouraged in the original thread, and I didn't see the word "roll", which you've now helpfully pointed out; it was unfortunate that, without knowing how clarification would be handled, I've accidentally done wrong by you, so for that, I'm sorry. Now, on to the debating.

You're right about it being ranged attacks with melee attack rolls, I won't argue against that, now that I've had the word pointed out to me. It also solves the dilemma I thought would contradict this: the Power Attack feat also specifies "melee attack rolls", rather than melee attacks. However, on further inspection, I do believe that Melee Weapon Mastery is still applicable, although for different reasons: whereas Power Attack and Thunderous Throw specify "melee attack rolls", Melee Weapon Mastery specifies "melee weapons" and "damage type".



When you select this feat, choose bludgeoning, piercing, or slashing. You must have Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization with a melee weapon that deals this type of damage. When using any melee weapon that has the damage type you selected, you gain a +2 bonus on attack rolls and a +2 bonus on damage rolls.


As the Throw Anything feat does not change the weapons type...



You can throw a melee weapon you are proficient with as if it were a ranged weapon. The range increment of weapons used in conjunction with this feat is 10 feet.


...and given the SRD's take on melee/ranged weapons...



Melee weapons are used for making melee attacks, though some of them can be thrown as well. Ranged weapons are thrown weapons or projectile weapons that are not effective in melee.


...I see no reason why Melee Weapon Mastery can't be applied, since it applies to the weapon type, not the attack type or roll type. The SRD's definition of melee and ranged attacks seems clear: if a thrown weapon can be used in melee, it's a melee weapon, and thus benefits from Melee Weapon Mastery instead of Ranged Weapon Mastery, which seems a little weird, but that's RAW for you.

I see no flaws in your reasoning behind the AoO answer you've provided. I disagree slightly about charging...or rather, pouncing.

Charging dictates that, at the end of your charge movement, a single melee attack occurs.



After moving, you may make a single melee attack.


Pounce, however, changes this to a full attack.



When a creature with this special attack makes a charge, it can follow with a full attack—including rake attacks if the creature also has the rake ability.


Combined with the SRD's definition of a Full Attack...



If you get more than one attack per round because your base attack bonus is high enough, because you fight with two weapons or a double weapon or for some special reason you must use a full-round action to get your additional attacks. You do not need to specify the targets of your attacks ahead of time. You can see how the earlier attacks turn out before assigning the later ones.

The only movement you can take during a full attack is a 5-foot step. You may take the step before, after, or between your attacks.

If you get multiple attacks because your base attack bonus is high enough, you must make the attacks in order from highest bonus to lowest. If you are using two weapons, you can strike with either weapon first. If you are using a double weapon, you can strike with either part of the weapon first.


...and it seems that, while implied, the RAW is clear: you can't use throw weapons at the end of a charge, unless you have pounce or a similar ability allowing you to do so.

It seems that, by RAW, you're almost completely correct. As for RAI...I've had a few DMs, and I've lurked on boards like these for years, and I can't think of anyone but particularly strict DMs not allowing that interpretation of the ability. That said, I've had a DM who was a stickler for RAW, and I've got the same issue, so thanks for pointing this out to me; it's been very helpful.

Once again, thanks for responding, and I'm sorry for any offence I've made by starting this thread. The fault was mine for not fully understanding your response. Have a nice day!