Battle Cleric Help

[yoshi67]

Starting a Good campaign in the FR where my group (fighter/sorcerer, paladin, fighter/rogue, and me) are leading an army to invade the Underdark. I don't know why or how yet, other than its a large invasion. I want to play a cleric but have never played one before, nor have I played a game with someone else playing a cleric so I feel a little overwhelmed. As you can tell by the line-up, we usually play more melee focused characters. I also can't see why any group would take a cleric to the Underdark unless he can hold his own, so I want to be battle-focused. We are playing a lightly optimized game, starting at lvl 5. We use Core and Complete books, but I can get small things from other books (like Dwarf Cleric alt lvls from RoS) if it's simple and necessary. My ideas:

Dwarf Cleric of Moradin, taking Dwarf Cleric lvl 4 from RoS to get warhammer proficiency/focus, possibly working to Hammer of Moradin prestige class if the game continues that long (taking it a lvl 10).

Dwarf Cleric of Clanggedin Silverbeard with dwarven battleaxe, War and (Dwarf/Strength/Good) domains.

Zenythri Cleric of Tyr, War and X domain, plan on picking up Initiate of Tyr and possibly working to Justiciar of Tyr PrC.

So my questions are what are good domains to pick besides War (I've heard mixed things about Strength)? For an Underdark campaign the Dwarf domain looks useful, any opinions? Is DMM:Persist a must, and what levels should I start grabbing feats for it if it is?

I think a dwarf cleric for an underground setting would be good. Any ideas and opinions on builds, feats, etc. are welcome!

[jiriku]

If your game is "lightly optimized" and everyone is used to playing fighter-types, DMM: Persist might be too powerful for the party. However, if do choose to use it, it's basically going to eat 100% of your feats, so you should start grabbing feats for it beginning from 1st level.

If you want a battle cleric, the three most important spells for you are divine favor, divine power, and righteous might. Ice axe is also a great battle spell, especially if you combine it with Power Attack. Beginning at 9th level, Quicken Spell is useful for casting quickened divine favor and getting your buffs in place faster. Other than that, look for spells that can be cast as a swift or immediate action, and consider mass conviction and righteous wrath of the faithful to enhance the whole party's ability in combat.

The Strength domain is a good choice for you. The Dwarf domain is useful too but not as central to your concept. The Good domain is a trap; avoid it.


Edit: For healing, I recommend you either (a) get a wand or two of lesser vigor and don't bother casting healing spells in combat except to bring people up from negatives, or (b) take the Augment Healing feat and prepare close wounds, insignia of healing and darts of life. Improved by the Augment Healing feat, these spells are all worth using in combat, which is not true of most healing spells.

[(Un)Inspired]

War isn't really that great a domain nor is strength. Look for domains that grant you spells you wouldn't have access to otherwise and powers that are as good as a good feat or better. Time, trickery, travel and Luck are all pretty radical.

DMM: persist is crackingly powerful but absolutely not a must. In fact, I would avoid it if only to make you're multiclass fighter feel better.

[Story]

If you're planning to Gish, a 1 level dip in Shiba Protector (OA) is a good start. You lose a CL, but you get +Wis to hit and damage. It has a heavy feat tax (Alertness, Iron Will, and Combat Expertise, though the first two can be bought), so it's not compatible with DMM at low levels.

Another gish option is Crusader + Ruby Knight Vindicator (ToB). You lose a total of 3 CL, but you get full BAB and lots of cool martial and stealth options. And that's even if you avoid the broken Divine Impetus ability.

Edit: Shiba Protector also requires 5 BAB, so I guess it's not really an option yet. But it's something to consider later.

Edit 2: Sorry, I missed the thing about book restrictions.

[yoshi67]

So I guess the big thing is with the group hardly optimized and cleric being a tier 1 class, do I really need to put a lot of thought into domains, or can I just pick two that seem to work and fit the character idea and just rely on the rest of the spell list to carry me?

[jiriku]

Correct. Domains are a minor cleric feature. Pick domains that include spells you'll want to cast. That way your domain spell slots won't be worthless to you. But don't worry about it too much. You need very little effort to hold your own among a group of mundanes, and most of that effort involves careful selection and use of your spells. If you screw that up, you can always prep new spells the next day and do better.

[torrasque666]

I don't know how effective this build is, but if you don't mind losing a level, you can toss in a few levels of Ordained Champion if your DM is willing to waive the "Special: Must worship Hextor or Heironeous." prereq(it seems like a stupid prereq in my opinion). It will allow you to utilize that War Domain more effectively due to allowing you to spontaneously cast from it. And be aware that Hammer of Moradin won't advance your casting level at all so you'll be stuck with 5th level spells(4th if you can/want to do OC) if you took all 10.

Hell, you could probably go with a Favored Soul and still be effective.

[DevilsAttorney]

Like Torrasque said, Ordained Champion is a great pick (barring the DM removes that Hextor/Heironeous crap, which he should).

[jiriku]

Oh gawd. I hadn't looked at Hammer of Moradin. That's an utter pussbucket of a class.

Still, if your group is low-op and martial, you might find it appropriate. It will cap your effective casting at 10th level, which stops you short of the phase of godlike power where you're throwing around the wrath of god as easily as tossing a football in your back yard on a Saturday afternoon. If you take Hammer of Moradin, DEFINITELY choose the Strength domain. That prc combines very well with the domain Strength booster.

As a hammer, your chief class features are Quake, Thunder Strike, and Power Throw. Everything else is either forgettable or a once-day ability you should treat more or less like a spell. This class is all about Strength, so look for effects that boost it, like bull's strength, girdle of giant strength, enlarge person or righteous might, and the Strength domain power, to boost the DC of Quake. Look for something that gives you rerolls on an attack roll, like alter fortune or the lucky enchantment, to ensure that when you use Power Throw, you don't miss every attack because of a bad d20 throw.

[yoshi67]

Our group is more about character, and I think the Hammer of Moradin has some interesting flavor. However, my god is Clangeddin so I can't take the PrC. Looking at Ordained Champion though. Another idea I kinda want to try:

Clangeddin's symbol is two crossed battleaxes. I'm taking the war domain so I'm proficient with dwarven waraxes. Thinking about getting an animated shield and wielding two waraxes. I've never had a TWF character and a cleric is limited on feats, so how viable is a TWF non-human cleric?

[Kaeso]

If you want a battle cleric, the three most important spells for you are divine favor, divine power, and righteous might. Ice axe is also a great battle spell, especially if you combine it with Power Attack.

Why ice axe? It only lasts a round/level. The soonest you can cast it is level 5, which means five rounds before you're unarmed. Also, power attack doesn work with ice axe because the ice axe is described as so light, you don't even get a STR bonus to damage. Consider that power attack doesn't work with light weapons (which still give you a STR bonus to damage).

[jiriku]

To be effective in TWF you need four things:

Resources to enchant up your two weapons. Check. Cleric can cast greater magic weapon.
Ability to move as a swift action, so you can move around while still making full attacks. Possible check. Clerics can take the Travel Devotion feat (Complete Champion) and cast knight's move.
A source of bonus damage to make the attacks hit harder. Possible check. I suppose you could take Craft Magic Arms and Armor and put the holy enchantment on each weapon. That's not too shabby against most foes. Boosting Strength is something clerics are good at, but that's not a great way to deal extra damage with TWF because your off-hand strikes only get half the Strength bonus to damage.
Feats to learn all the necessary stuff. Major problem. You need TWF and ITWF, plus Oversize TWF to avoid an extra penalty for not using a light offhand weapon. You'll eventually need a 17 Dex to take ITWF, which probably means some expensive gloves of dexterity +6 to overcome your racial penalty. You need Somatic Weaponry so that you can still cast spells while your hands are full. If it's available and doesn't clash with your character image too much, you could use girallon's blessing from the Spell Compendium to get an extra set of arms; then you could do without Somatic Weaponry and could even TWF while wielding your shield normally. From that background you've given, though, it sounds like that spell might not be considered appropriate.

What makes it tricky is that you need three of those four feats all at once, or TWF won't really work for you at all. And the end result is just one more attack with a -2 penalty. It can be done... it's just a lot of trouble for a small payoff, and I'm still not sure where you'd get early bonus damage to make this more effective than a simple persistent righteous might.

Have you considered the dwarven warpike from Races of Stone? With just two feats, EWP and Power Attack, you could really wreck some face, and Power Attack with a two-handed weapon benefits greatly from the Strength boosts that clerics have so many of.

[jiriku]

Why ice axe? It only lasts a round/level. The soonest you can cast it is level 5, which means five rounds before you're unarmed. Also, power attack doesn work with ice axe because the ice axe is described as so light, you don't even get a STR bonus to damage. Consider that power attack doesn't work with light weapons (which still give you a STR bonus to damage).

Compatibility with feats like Power Attack or Weapon Finesse is not based on the weight of a weapon, but on how the weapon is used. You can PA with a 1.5-lb darkwood club, for example, but not with a 3-lb handaxe. You can Finesse a 10-lb spiked chain but not a 2-lb mithril longsword. It's the type of weapon that matters, not its weight. The ice axe is shaped like a battleaxe. You can use Power Attack with a battleaxe. It is reasonable to assume that you fight with an ice axe the same way you do with a battleaxe, and thus can use Power Attack with it. Now, if you choose to interpret it differently, that's your prerogative, but the text of the ice axe spell doesn't define it as a [light] weapon and doesn't include any special rules for how it might interact with feats like Power Attack or Weapon Finesse.

Now, why would you prefer this spell? It's honkin crazy good, that's why! At 5th level, it is a 2d12+2 weapon that makes touch attacks. That's 15 average damage, equivalent to a greatsword +1 wielded by a character with a Strength of 20. Except the ice axe doesn't cost 2350 gp, and is much more accurate. And because it makes touch attacks, it's freakin' great with Power Attack. And Clangeddin's preferred weapon is the battleaxe so it's a perfect fit for the character's fluff. And the spell can be persisted. A persistent ice axe and Power Attack, as a package, will make the character effective in combat even if he only has 13-14 Strength. Even without Persistent Spell, ice axe as a first-round buff arguably approaches divine power in effectiveness, and is one level lower. Throw in a quickened divine favor and it just gets more ruthless.

[Kaeso]

Compatibility with feats like Power Attack or Weapon Finesse is not based on the weight of a weapon, but on how the weapon is used. You can PA with a 1.5-lb darkwood club, for example, but not with a 3-lb handaxe. You can Finesse a 10-lb spiked chain but not a 2-lb mithril longsword. It's the type of weapon that matters, not its weight. The ice axe is shaped like a battleaxe. You can use Power Attack with a battleaxe. It is reasonable to assume that you fight with an ice axe the same way you do with a battleaxe, and thus can use Power Attack with it. Now, if you choose to interpret it differently, that's your prerogative, but the text of the ice axe spell doesn't define it as a [light] weapon and doesn't include any special rules for how it might interact with feats like Power Attack or Weapon Finesse.

Now, why would you prefer this spell? It's honkin crazy good, that's why! At 5th level, it is a 2d12+2 weapon that makes touch attacks. That's 15 average damage, equivalent to a greatsword +1 wielded by a character with a Strength of 20. Except the ice axe doesn't cost 2350 gp, and is much more accurate. And because it makes touch attacks, it's freakin' great with Power Attack. And Clangeddin's preferred weapon is the battleaxe so it's a perfect fit for the character's fluff. And the spell can be persisted. A persistent ice axe and Power Attack, as a package, will make the character effective in combat even if he only has 13-14 Strength. Even without Persistent Spell, ice axe as a first-round buff arguably approaches divine power in effectiveness, and is one level lower. Throw in a quickened divine favor and it just gets more ruthless.

When you put it like that, it does sound crazy good. Doesn't a 3rd level spell for only 5 rounds sound like a bit of a waste though? Persisting it sounds like a waste as well: as soon as you use your dominant hand for something else, the axe is gone.

[jiriku]

When you put it like that, it does sound crazy good. Doesn't a 3rd level spell for only 5 rounds sound like a bit of a waste though? Persisting it sounds like a waste as well: as soon as you use your dominant hand for something else, the axe is gone.

It's a judgment call, I suppose. Is casting a 5-round haste at 5th level a bit of a waste? The answer depends on what else you might have done with your action. Note that "If you choose to hold something other than the ice axe in your hand or use the hand in some other way, the ice axe vanishes until the hand is empty again." This is actually a perk, not a limitation. You can cast spells with that hand, grab a potion or scroll or unattended macguffin, help your buddy out of a pit, or whatever, and you don't have to drop your weapon and later spend an action picking it up again. It's there when you need it, not when you don't.

Now, you do have to be careful of spell-resistant enemies and it's not much use against cold-resistant foes, but note that because the ice axe strikes as a spell and deals [cold] damage, it bypasses damage reduction, deals +50% damage to [fire] creatures, and you can increase its damage with Empower Spell.

Really, I think it's one of the hidden gems of Spell Compendium, an all-around great spell that can really define a character both stylistically and mechanically.

[Kaeso]

Well, you made some good arguments that make the spell at the very least worth considering.


Really, I think it's one of the hidden gems of Spell Compendium, an all-around great spell that can really define a character both stylistically and mechanically.

I agree, but I dislike that it's always an axe and always ice. For a dwarf that worships a god with an axe as his favored weapon it's fine, but what about a deity of Heironeous? It be nicer if the element and the shape of the weapon (even if it's just purely aesthetic) would match the god you worship.

[yoshi67]

Well stylistically I'd like to use the weapon of my god, a battleaxe. So let's throw out TWF, would Power Attack be worth it with S&B or should I get an animated shield, or just not use a shield? How does strength help with PA? It's damage is based on converting BAB to damage, and strength adds a flat damage bonus regardless of PA.

The persistent ice axe sounds epic, if a little too good :smallsmile:. If I wanted to go this way, what would my feat selection look like and when does it "come online"? We're starting out 5th level and I don't know how long we plan to extend the campaign, I'm guessing lvl 12 to 15 at the most.

[Endril]

So I guess the big thing is with the group hardly optimized and cleric being a tier 1 class, do I really need to put a lot of thought into domains, or can I just pick two that seem to work and fit the character idea and just rely on the rest of the spell list to carry me?

I believe what makes cleric/druid/wizard tier 1 is mostly spell selection, and I believe you lose a bit of that when you design a character to get up in the bad guys' faces and swing steel. In other words, I don't think you're going to take away from the enjoyment from the game too much if you make your character a bit stronger, since it sounds like you'll be using it as an up-front fighter.

I've seen some discussion of domains. I recommend you take a look at devotion and reserve feats in the complete champion. Someone said war was a bad domain, but I don't agree. You can take holy warrior at level 9 and it will help you dish out as much damage as the fighters. Law is another good domain to pick up, as you can trade it in for law devotion, which gives you anywhere from +3 to +7 (depending on your level) to attack or armor class (your choice). I don't know much about Clangeddin, but I'm assuming War and Law fit what you're going for pretty well. A couple other feats that can help a cleric in combat are divine might (although not as good for dwarves, with their charisma penalty) and knowledge devotion. I usually take church inquisitor from complete divine to get the inquisition domain, which you can trade in for knowledge devotion. Even with low intelligence, you'll get at least +1 to attack/damage as long as you have the 1 rank in the appropriate knowledge. Regarding divine metamagic and ordained champion, yes and yes. I believe this is one of the best cleric builds you can make, although they may be over the top for your group. Taking ruby knight vindicator to get extra swifts is potent as well. However, neither of those classes fit your concept. If you decide to go with Moradin instead of Clangeddin, you could also take a look at Battle Smith from Races of Stone. Adding your wisdom to your damage is nice for a cleric.

As for your weapon/shield question, I'd look at a couple options. One is taking agile shield fighter (phbII), since you were interested in taking two weapon fighting anyway. The other is to animate your shield and fight with your weapon two handed, which would make your power attack much more deadly. The second option is more optimal, although it may take a couple levels before you can drop 9,000 gold on a shield. If you have a couple extra feats (i.e. you didn't take extend spell, persist spell, divine metamagic, extra turning), I'd consider looking at shield specialization and shield ward from the phbII.

It's understandable that you're overwhelmed. My advice is chart out what you want to do with your character at each level. Have it written out to at least level 10 or so, and at least have an idea of what you'll be doing up until 20 in case it ever goes that far. It will make it easier for you to choose your classes and feats. But you'll definitely want to read up on spells. The three spells that were recommended to you; divine favor, divine power, and righteous might, are staples for combat, but trying to cast just 1 or 2 of them before you start fighting will make you useless in most fights. That's why we're recommending you use divine metamagic to persist them, so they'll always be on. Until you can quicken or persist them, you'll want to look at feats and spells that can improve your combat as swift actions, such as law devotion, blade of blood (phbII), etc. Once you get your character progression figured out and read up on spells (I recommend spell compendium since it has most of your supplemental spells in one location), you shouldn't feel so overwhelmed.

[Endril]

Well stylistically I'd like to use the weapon of my god, a battleaxe. So let's throw out TWF, would Power Attack be worth it with S&B or should I get an animated shield, or just not use a shield? How does strength help with PA? It's damage is based on converting BAB to damage, and strength adds a flat damage bonus regardless of PA.

The persistent ice axe sounds epic, if a little too good :smallsmile:. If I wanted to go this way, what would my feat selection look like and when does it "come online"? We're starting out 5th level and I don't know how long we plan to extend the campaign, I'm guessing lvl 12 to 15 at the most.

I briefly addressed this in my last post, but the most effective option here is power attack and an animated shield, assuming you have the 9,000 gold. You can use a one handed weapon with two hands, and it will multiply your strength mod x 1.5 and your power attack x 2. The only way strength helps PA is by making you more likely to hit, which is pretty vital when you're taking a penalty. You can also make up for the penalty with feats that add to your to hit, such as law devotion or weapon focus (free from war domain, if the weapon is favored).

As for the ice axe, I've never used it for power attack. The book doesn't specifically say you can't, but the DM may rule that way since it doesn't allow you to apply your strength. I would ask. However, I also don't think the axe vanishing would be a problem if you persisted it. The text says it vanishes "until the hand is empty again". I think it's pretty clear that you would have it all day.

As for how to set up your feats and use divine metamagic to persist, that is more difficult. Many players go human to have an extra feat for this, or take the planning domain for extra turning. It looks like you can't do either. But you can take extend spell at level 1, persist spell at level 3, and then divine metamagic at level 6. Problem is, without the extra turning feat or a nightstick (libris mortis), you'd have to have a +4 charisma modifier to get the 7 turn undeads you'd need to persist just one spell. I'd look at other items that give you extra turn undeads and/or add to your charisma, if you can afford them, but that may be too much for you now. And that's assuming you wait until level 9 to take power attack. It's a great trick, but one that might not be viable until you're level 12 or so. I did this with a human ordained champion, so I was able to get power attack by trading in a domain and got extra turning from my extra feat, and didn't have a charisma penalty. I was persisting 1 spell at level 6 (divine favor) and bought a nightstick at level 9 so I could also persist divine power. Add in an animated shield, holy warrior, and law devotion, and it got nasty.

[yoshi67]

Ok thanks guys, I think I'm starting to understand. I've just read too many posts saying you aren't a "real" cleric if you don't use DMM Persist or Quicken, but it's actually not a big deal in a suboptimized group. The reason for this cleric is the DM is creating a game for "mass combat" in the Underdark. I wanted to play a cleric who could stand his ground and dish out some pain if he needed to instead of just an Oprah healer (aaand you get a heal, aaand you get a heal,...). But I'm envisioning a cleric who is a party buffer who happens to be decent at fighting, getting a helmet of +2 wisdom (4000gp) to bring me up to 21 wis, and Expand Spell and Quicken Spell to help with buffing and just go Sword and Board. Oh yeah, I'm embedding a custom Holy Symbol from Complete Champion into my masterwork shield so I'm always holding it. Might look at Ordained Champion around lvl 8, my group doesn't hold PrCs in high regard so depends on what happens.

[Endril]

Ok thanks guys, I think I'm starting to understand. I've just read too many posts saying you aren't a "real" cleric if you don't use DMM Persist or Quicken, but it's actually not a big deal in a suboptimized group. The reason for this cleric is the DM is creating a game for "mass combat" in the Underdark. I wanted to play a cleric who could stand his ground and dish out some pain if he needed to instead of just an Oprah healer (aaand you get a heal, aaand you get a heal,...). But I'm envisioning a cleric who is a party buffer who happens to be decent at fighting, getting a helmet of +2 wisdom (4000gp) to bring me up to 21 wis, and Expand Spell and Quicken Spell to help with buffing and just go Sword and Board. Oh yeah, I'm embedding a custom Holy Symbol from Complete Champion into my masterwork shield so I'm always holding it. Might look at Ordained Champion around lvl 8, my group doesn't hold PrCs in high regard so depends on what happens.

Well ordained champion, along with feats from complete champion, will help you fight like a fighter. I picked that route when I wanted to be a fighter but the group didn't have a cleric. By expand spell do you mean extend spell? And some advice I'd give on buffing is 1) wait to take quicken spell until at least level 12. You have to pay 4 spell levels to use it, so you can't even use it yet. 2) look for some good cleric buff ideas if that's the route you want to go; the good devotion feat aligns weapons and gives dr, some good spells include elation from book of exalted deeds, interfaith blessing from complete champion, blessing of the righteous from phbII (once you can cast level 4 spells), prayer, etc.

By the way, I had this awesome archer (fighter/order of the bow/deepwood sniper, played up in to the 20's) back in 3.0 named yoshi, so I think it's interesting that someone on here has yoshi as their name with an archer as their pic.

[yoshi67]

Well ordained champion, along with feats from complete champion, will help you fight like a fighter. I picked that route when I wanted to be a fighter but the group didn't have a cleric. By expand spell do you mean extend spell?
Yeah I meant extend spell. I'm totally new to clerics, or even full casters, so I'm not totally sure what feats to get. I usually just pick ones that look good or that I see are recommended a lot, hence extend and quicken.


By the way, I had this awesome archer (fighter/order of the bow/deepwood sniper, played up in to the 20's) back in 3.0 named yoshi, so I think it's interesting that someone on here has yoshi as their name with an archer as their pic.
Yoshi was a nickname back in high school. There's a long story behind it that ends with a guy randomly saying "I'm gonna call you Yoshi" and it stuck. My first character was a ranger.