Persisted Creeping Cold?

[Yael]

The spell has a duration, which can be extended (from 3 rounds to 6,) and I think that I already asked about the cumulative d6's (which cap at 3d6 at 3rd round.)

But what happens if this spell is persisted? 1d6, 2d6, 3d6, that's on the first 18 seconds... But, 24 hours? If i'm not mistaken (and I hope I am not, because I am entering college next month, and you know, math)

For one minute (the first, being prescice) there would be 27d6 cold damage, and every minute thereafter 30d6, for a total of 1800d6 an hour. And assuming a day has 24 hours (which has), there would be at the end of the day a total of 43,197d6 points of cold damage (fort halves)?

If I was mistaken in the math there, please skip it, what's important is the main question here. Is this spell, a 2nd-level spell that powerful (especially when you can persist spells at level 3rd with that Illumian cheese)?

[Red Fel]

The spell has a duration, which can be extended (from 3 rounds to 6,) and I think that I already asked about the cumulative d6's (which cap at 3d6 at 3rd round.)

But what happens if this spell is persisted? 1d6, 2d6, 3d6, that's on the first 18 seconds... But, 24 hours? If i'm not mistaken (and I hope I am not, because I am entering college next month, and you know, math)

For one minute (the first, being prescice) there would be 27d6 cold damage, and every minute thereafter 30d6, for a total of 1800d6 an hour. And assuming a day has 24 hours (which has), there would be at the end of the day a total of 43,197d6 points of cold damage (fort halves)?

If I was mistaken in the math there, please skip it, what's important is the main question here. Is this spell, a 2nd-level spell that powerful (especially when you can persist spells at level 3rd with that Illumian cheese)?

Creeping Cold cannot be Persisted. Persistent Spell applies to "[s]pells with a fixed or personal range[.]" Creeping Cold has a range of "Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)[.]" Thus, Creeping Cold does not have a fixed or personal range, and cannot be Persisted.

That said, it can be Extended, as Extend Spell only requires that a spell not have a duration of "concentration, instantaneous, or permanent[.]" So you can theoretically run it for six rounds instead of three.

[eggynack]

First, there's not really an apparent damage, cap, so the overall damage would be much much higher than that. Second, no, this 2nd level spell isn't dealing insane damage. This 8th level spell is dealing insane damage. It's a lot less impressive. You can reduce and junk, but that's really more of a metamagic reduction thing. Really, the extended version is usually going to deal more than enough damage.

[Yael]

Creeping Cold cannot be Persisted. Persistent Spell applies to "[s]pells with a fixed or personal range[.]" Creeping Cold has a range of "Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)[.]" Thus, Creeping Cold does not have a fixed or personal range, and cannot be Persisted.

That said, it can be Extended, as Extend Spell only requires that a spell not have a duration of "concentration, instantaneous, or permanent[.]" So you can theoretically run it for six rounds instead of three.

Oh, that's too bad~

[kardar233]

Getting over the Persistent Spell range issues is as simple as the Ocular Spell feat. That's some nice damage.

[Yael]

Getting over the Persistent Spell range issues is as simple as the Ocular Spell feat. That's some nice damage.

I don't clearly see how you can get over Persistent Spell's prerequisite.

Spells with a fixed or personal range can have their duration increased to 24 hours.

With Ocular Spell's prerequisite.

Only ray spells and spells with a target other than personal can be cast as ocular spells.

To Creeping Cold's characteristics.

Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Target: One creature
Duration: 3 rounds

Some explainerino?

[With a box]

I realized that i can't persist a wall of force:smallfurious:

[eggynack]

I don't clearly see how you can get over Persistent Spell's prerequisite.


With Ocular Spell's prerequisite.


To Creeping Cold's characteristics.


Some explainerino?
Creeping cold has a target other than personal, so it works with ocular spell. Ocular spell provides a fixed range, so it works with persist.

[Yael]

Creeping cold has a target other than personal, so it works with ocular spell. Ocular spell provides a fixed range, so it works with persist.

I misread the Ocular Spell's requirements, now I see. 8 turn attempts for that Divine Metamagic tho.

[eggynack]

I misread the Ocular Spell's requirements, now I see. 8 turn attempts for that Divine Metamagic tho.
Looks more like 10. I think that the +1 turn spent applies for each metamagic you use, and the total mod from the actual metamagic is +8, which adds up to 10 attempts.

[Yael]

Looks more like 10. I think that the +1 turn spent applies for each metamagic you use, and the total mod from the actual metamagic is +8, which adds up to 10 attempts.

Then I misread Divine Metamagic too ;P I'm so bad at English >n<

Even so, I am somewhat confused about something else now.

Do really Creeping Cold's cumulative damage caps at 3d6?
Yes, it says that it gains a cumulative +1d6 each round (key word), and the spell has a listed duration of 3 rounds. Of course that it says how does it work for those 3 rounds, and quote "(that is, 1d6 on the 1st round, 2d6 on the second, and 3d6 on the third.)" but if the spell isn't saying exactly that 3d6 is the "cap," if it was extended, it would deal 4d6 at 4th round, 5d6 at 5th, and 6d6 at 6th (giving a total of 21d6 in a six-round duration for a 3rd level spell.

[eggynack]

Do really Creeping Cold's cumulative damage caps at 3d6?
Yes, it says that it gains a cumulative +1d6 each round (key word), and the spell has a listed duration of 3 rounds. Of course that it says how does it work for those 3 rounds, and quote "(that is, 1d6 on the 1st round, 2d6 on the second, and 3d6 on the third.)" but if the spell isn't saying exactly that 3d6 is the "cap," if it was extended, it would deal 4d6 at 4th round, 5d6 at 5th, and 6d6 at 6th (giving a total of 21d6 in a six-round duration for a 3rd level spell.
As I said, it doesn't seem to cap at all. It just keeps growing in damage turn after turn. You get bonus points if you do the combo with a lesser rod of extend spell, because it's so ridiculously cheap.

[Phelix-Mu]

Then I misread Divine Metamagic too ;P I'm so bad at English >n<

Even so, I am somewhat confused about something else now.

Do really Creeping Cold's cumulative damage caps at 3d6?
Yes, it says that it gains a cumulative +1d6 each round (key word), and the spell has a listed duration of 3 rounds. Of course that it says how does it work for those 3 rounds, and quote "(that is, 1d6 on the 1st round, 2d6 on the second, and 3d6 on the third.)" but if the spell isn't saying exactly that 3d6 is the "cap," if it was extended, it would deal 4d6 at 4th round, 5d6 at 5th, and 6d6 at 6th (giving a total of 21d6 in a six-round duration for a 3rd level spell.

Yes, I'm pretty sure that's how it works. It's also why persisting it is nothing less than massive, hideous overkill, but why extending it is pretty good bang-for-buck in a non-time sensitive context.

EDIT: Ditto on the lesser metamagic rod. This is actually one of the better low-level pure damage spells for druid when extended in this fashion (though obviously cold damage can be problematic). Bonus points for Energy Substitution.

[Thanatosia]

Yes, I'm pretty sure that's how it works. It's also why persisting it is nothing less than massive, hideous overkill, but why extending it is pretty good bang-for-buck in a non-time sensitive context.
Yes.... that's exactly how it works, oh, except for how Red Fel already explained on the very first reply how it can't be persisted at all that is.....

[Phelix-Mu]

Except, really irritatingly to me, the Occular Spell trick actually works. Wonders never cease.

[Thanatosia]

Except, really irritatingly to me, the Occular Spell trick actually works. Wonders never cease.
Actually, I don't think it does. Persistant spell, in addition to not working with variable range spells, has another restriction to it

Spells with a fixed or personal range can have
their duration increased to 24 hours. Spells of instantaneous
duration cannot be affected by this feat, nor can spells whose
effects are discharged.
Occular spell slips you past the fixed range requirement, but runs you smack into the 'spells whos effects are discharged' prohibition.

[Phelix-Mu]

Actually, I don't think it does. Persistant spell, in addition to not working with variable range spells, has another restriction to it

Occular spell slips you past the fixed range requirement, but runs you smack into the 'spells whos effects are discharged' prohibition.

Hmm. I don't think you are using discharged like the game does. Discharged is normally only used by spells that take effect at some point other than when they are cast (typically touch spells or things like glyphs and such whose main effect happens after the casting). All that happens with creeping cold is that it is cast, which is something that happens with all spells.

[Thanatosia]

Hmm. I don't think you are using discharged like the game does. Discharged is normally only used by spells that take effect at some point other than when they are cast (typically touch spells or things like glyphs and such whose main effect happens after the casting). All that happens with creeping cold is that it is cast, which is something that happens with all spells.
Normal Creeping cold, you're right, is not a discharged spell. Occular Creeping Cold, however, turns the spell into an 8hour buff that is discharged to fire as a ray from your eyes. So pick your poison, regular creeping cold cannot be persisted because its' range - apply Occular spell to it, and you fix the range issue but turn it into a discharged effect, which also cannot be persisted.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Normal Creeping cold, you're right, is not a discharged spell. Occular Creeping Cold, however, turns the spell into an 8hour buff that is discharged to fire as a ray from your eyes. So pick your poison, regular creeping cold cannot be persisted because its' range - apply Occular spell to it, and you fix the range issue but turn it into a discharged effect, which also cannot be persisted.
"Discharged" is a defined thing within the rules, though. Ocular Spell never says that the modified spell becomes dischargeable. By the language of the feat, the spell isn't even cast until you fire your eye-lasers.

[Thanatosia]

By the language of the feat, the spell isn't even cast until you fire your eye-lasers.
"An ocular spell does not take effect immediately, but is instead held in one of your eyes for up to 8 hours."
It is not cast when you fire, it is cast up to 8 hours before you fire it. The feat does not use the word Discharge, but it works completely in line with discharge effects, and I'm pretty sure discharge is a mechanical description, not a magical keyword that must be invoked. But I suppose you could argue it otherwise, I would certainly rule it a discharge effect in my games.

[Aliek]

Eh... Discharging a spell is indeed a mechanical thing. This was made to nerf the Footsteps of the Divine TO build(Which I... Forgot the name right now :smallfrown:), where you persisted that spell, that has a clause:
"You can discharge the spell to add +10 feet to your speed per remaining round of the spell's duration. However, this effect lasts until the end of your turn.""

Then you got a huge movement speed and abused it from other tricks :smallbiggrin:

So that's a discharge.

[Karnith]

As a rules reference, spells whose effects are discharged will say so in the duration lines of the spell descriptions (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#discharge); Ocular Spell does not make discharge spells out of ones that were not previously so.

[Thanatosia]

As a rules reference, spells whose effects are discharged will say so in the duration lines of the spell descriptions (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#discharge); Ocular Spell does not make discharge spells out of ones that were not previously so.
From the SRD you linked: "Discharge Occasionally a spells lasts for a set duration or until triggered or discharged. "
So kind of like 8 hours (a set duration) until fired (triggered)?

Sounds like Occular spell fits the criteria for a Discharge spell to me.

[Karnith]

From the SRD you linked: "Discharge Occasionally a spells lasts for a set duration or until triggered or discharged. "
So kind of like 8 hours (a set duration) until fired (triggered)?

Sounds like Occular spell fits the criteria for a Discharge spell to me.
It may sound kind of like it, but they are separate things. A discharge mechanic affects the duration of a spell (generally in the form of "until discharged," sometimes as "until discharged, and then"), and spells whose effects are discharged will explicitly say so in the Duration line of the spell. See e.g. Protection from Energy (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/protectionFromEnergy.htm) or Stoneskin (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/stoneskin.htm). Ocular Spell is an entirely different mechanic, because the spells have not yet taken effect when being "stored" via Ocular Spell, and once they are actually cast, their duration remains unchanged from the original spell description.

They achieve a similar effect (sort of), but are mechanically completely distinct.

[Yael]

It may sound kind of like it, but they are separate things. A discharge mechanic affects the duration of a spell (generally in the form of "until discharged," sometimes as "until discharged, and then"), and spells whose effects are discharged will explicitly say so in the Duration line of the spell. See e.g. Protection from Energy (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/protectionFromEnergy.htm) or Stoneskin (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/stoneskin.htm). Ocular Spell is an entirely different mechanic, because the spells have not yet taken effect when being "stored" via Ocular Spell, and once they are actually cast, their duration remains unchanged from the original spell description.

They achieve a similar effect (sort of), but are mechanically completely distinct.

I second this. I'm no profesional, but even while some spells have some wacky effects, their description gives the in-mechanic method. When a prerequisite should say: until discharged we must ask ourselves: What does this discharged thingy mean? Then we find spells like:

See e.g. Protection from Energy (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/protectionFromEnergy.htm) or Stoneskin (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/stoneskin.htm).
So, now we know what's a discharged, let's review Persistent Spell's description.


Spells with a fixed or personal range can have their duration increased to 24 hours. Spells of instantaneous duration cannot be affected by this feat, nor can spells whose effects are discharged. You don't need to maintain concentration on persistent detect spells (such as detect magic or detect thoughts) for you to be aware of the mere presence or absence of the subject detected, but gaining additional information requires concentration as normal. A persistent spell uses up a spell slot six levels higher than the spell's actual level.
Now, as I see it (without quoting Ocular Spell,) discharging and using a stored spell are two different things, as Karnith pointed out, a Discharge mechanic does affect the spell's duration (ending it), see Heart of Water (CM) (http://dndtools.eu/spells/complete-mage--58/heart-of-water--879/) for example.

[Phelix-Mu]

I see enough room here for a DM who wants to limit persistify-ness (already a staggering change to game dynamics) by ruling Ocular Spell to be a discharge, while one that wants to hold to RAW holding that discharge is distinct from what Ocular Spell does (because the RAW supports this).

A good way to think of this is that Ocular Spell sets up a secondary duration of up until 8 hours, a kind of spell-storing effect, during which the spell to be cast is stored in the eyes. Counting the casting of an Ocular Spell as a discharge would lead to complicated interactions with the rules, like as in the aforementioned heart of water and such, that say things like "1 hr/level or until discharged." Unless a spell could be discharged multiple times (which is not how the SRD uses the term), this would mean Ocular heart of water would end the moment it was cast, which is clearly not how Ocular Spell is intended to work. This is even more problematic with spells that do even more restricted things than heart of water when discharged (a theoretical possibility even if I can't pick one out of a hat atm).