[PF] Sanity check - Full BAB Monks?

[The Grue]

I'm playing an E6 game with a monk in the party. We keep tripping over ourselves remembering to adjust the monk's BAB when she uses Flurry, so to simplify the math and reduce mental overhead we're considering upping the monk to full BAB progression by default instead of having Flurry adjust it.

This also has the side benefit of making the monk better at grappling and other iconic unarmed manoeuvres.

Is this a sensible houserule? Are there any unforseen and possibly balance-breaking consequences of full-BAB monks that might start showing up by level 6? My gut feeling is no, since Monks are firmly tier 5(notably, one of the core classes that didn't get a tier bump from the PF changes). Am I wrong, Playgrounders?

[StreamOfTheSky]

Answers to your questions, in order:
Yes
No
No

The only "consequence" is you will probably realize just giving them full BAB isn't *enough* of a fix.

[stack]

Since the monk and its various archetypes trip over themselves to grant effective full BAB all over the place (flurry, maneuvers, etc), no, it would not be a problem. Medium BAB on the monk is a unnecessary legacy from previous editions which may be going away in the recently announced book the name of which I have forgotten. Good riddance.

[jaydubs]

Medium BAB on the monk is a unnecessary legacy from previous editions which may be going away in the recently announced book the name of which I have forgotten.

Pathfinder Unchained?

[facelessminion]

It is very sensible, the only thing you will need to adjust is to buff Flurry, and no, you are not wrong. Lord knows they could use plenty of other buffs.

[StreamOfTheSky]

It is very sensible, the only thing you will need to adjust is to buff Flurry, and no, you are not wrong. Lord knows they could use plenty of other buffs.

Specifically, ITWF at 6 and GTWF at 11. Far as I can tell, they got them at the levels they do solely b/c that's when the medium BAB monk actually reached +6 and +11, respectively. Letting flurry add 2ndary natural attacks at the end...like any other guy w/ TWF unarmed is allowed...would be nice, too.

[facelessminion]

I'd also say just auto-give Monks the Guided ability... It's already more or less a +1 apology bonus from Paizo anyway. :p

[StreamOfTheSky]

All good ideas. I've realized I should just cut to the chase and post my PF Monk houserules (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=416.0) rather than mention them piecemeal. Mind, I still don't think that does enough, and much of it won't matter in an E6 game other than ideas for "epic feats". Also, another good reason to give monk full BAB in E6: Otherwise, the supposed martial artist class is unable to ever get Greater combat maneuver feats, other than Maneuver Master archetype. :smalleek:

I've found the Monk to be the weakest class in PF, like it was in core 3E, and perhaps even worse off. Therefore, I am considering making all of these changes to make monks a more serious threat in melee, provide an avenue for them to combine their speed and multiattacking cornerstones, "only" need three attributes to be effective, and just in general to make some of their especially bad class features suck less. This is what I've got so far:

- Qinggong Monk replaces Monk as the class (since there's really no reason for a Monk not to be one). Any Ki Power that grants a feat only costs 1 Ki (unless it cost 0 already) and lasts for a number of rounds equal to the Monk's Wisdom modifier each activation.

- Monks recieve full Base Attack Bonus, not just when using flurry of blows. The benefit of maneuver training is that Monks add their Wisdom modifier, in addition to strength, to their Combat Maneuver Bonus. The Monk's Flurry of Blows receives Improved TWF at level 6 and Greater TWF at level 11 to reflect the change in BAB. A monk can apply any natural attacks she has as secondary natural attacks with her flurry, as you normally can with a full attack.

- Bonus feats: A monk may select Catch Off-Guard, Combat Reflexes, Deflect Arrows, Dodge, Improved Grapple, Mobility, Scorpion Style, and Throw Anything as bonus feats at 1st level. At 6th level, she may also select Gorgon's Fist, Ki Throw, Snatch Arrows, Spring Attack, Tripping Twirl, and Wind Stance. At 10th level, she may also select Greater Blind-Fight, Improved Critical, Improved Ki Throw, Lightning Stance, Medusa's Wrath, and Whirlwind Attack.

- AC Bonus: A Monk gains a +1 bonus to AC, in addition to her Wisdom modifier, at level 2. This bonus increases by +1 every three levels thereafter (5th, 8th, etc...). This progression replaces the current one of +1 per 4 levels.

- Inner Strength: A monk may use her Wisdom modifer to determine bonus hit points for each Monk HD she posseses instead of Constitution. At 3rd level, the Monk has learned to fully harness her strength of will. She may now replace Constitution with Wisdom on Fortitude saves, and dies when her negative hit points total reaches her Wisdom score, rather than Constitution. If she suffers enough ability damage or drain to reduce her Constitution score to zero, the Monk remains in a catatonic state but does not die until a number of rounds equal to her wisdom score transpire, and only if her Constitution has not been brought back above 0 by then.

- A Monk's Fast Movement bonus applies to any mode of movement for which she has a listed speed.

- Ki Strike: Ki Strike (Magic) gives an actual, continuous enhancement bonus to the Monk's unarmed strikes. It starts at +1 at level 4 and increases every four Monk levels thereafter, up to +5 at 20th level. When the Monk gains Ki Strike (Lawful), her unarmed strike gains the Axiomatic magical property. Ki Strike is a Supernatural ability.

- Monks, and only Monks, may take Improved Natural Attack (Unarmed Strike) as a feat.

- Maneuver Mastery: At level 5, a Monk can initiate any combat maneuver without provoking an Attack of Opportunity. Furthermore, she is treated as though she has all the "Improved" maneuver feats and their prerequisites (such as Int 13, Combat Expertise, etc...) for the purposes of qualifying for other feats.

- Wholeness of Body only costs 1 ki point to use, and heals hit points equal to double the Monk's level as a standard action, or hit points equal to the Monk's level as a swift action, the benefit and associated action chosen by the Monk each time she uses this ability. At level 15, Wholeness of Body always heals twice the Monk's level in damage and can be used as an Immediate action. If used in this way, it can heal the damage as it happens and prevent the Monk from reaching the dying, dead, staggered, or unconscious conditions.

- Rushing Torrent: At level 7, a monk has perfected her flurrying technique and can now add her additional flurry of blows attacks to any attack action, instead of being limited to a full attack action. This includes, but is not limited to, readied actions, charges, martial strike maneuvers, and Spring Attacks. The monk simply chooses to apply the flurry attacks at the start of the action (taking the appropriate attack penalty to attack rolls). If used with Vital Strike or a similar feat, base weapon damage is only multiplied on the first attack.

- Perfect Self: In addition to the listed benefits, the Monk gains Fast Healing 5 and a Fly speed of 60 ft (plus Fast Movement) at Perfect maneuverability as constant benefits. The Monk may still be considered her original creature type (such as Humanoid) in order to receive beneficial spells or effects. Finally, the Monk gains Smite Chaos once per encounter, as the Paladin ability Smite Evil, except that it targets chaotic creatures, uses Wisdom modifer and Monk level instead of charisma and Paladin level, and deals double damage on the first hit to a chaotic outsider or a creature with the chaotic subtype.

[Crustypeanut]

The Brawler is like a Monk, but with Full BAB. Why not give it to the monk too?

I don't think giving them full BAB would be a bad thing at all.

[Crustypeanut]

All good ideas. I've realized I should just cut to the chase and post my PF Monk houserules (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=416.0) rather than mention them piecemeal. Mind, I still don't think that does enough, and much of it won't matter in an E6 game other than ideas for "epic feats". Also, another good reason to give monk full BAB in E6: Otherwise, the supposed martial artist class is unable to ever get Greater combat maneuver feats, other than Maneuver Master archetype. :smalleek:

I've found the Monk to be the weakest class in PF, like it was in core 3E, and perhaps even worse off. Therefore, I am considering making all of these changes to make monks a more serious threat in melee, provide an avenue for them to combine their speed and multiattacking cornerstones, "only" need three attributes to be effective, and just in general to make some of their especially bad class features suck less. This is what I've got so far:

- Qinggong Monk replaces Monk as the class (since there's really no reason for a Monk not to be one). Any Ki Power that grants a feat only costs 1 Ki (unless it cost 0 already) and lasts for a number of rounds equal to the Monk's Wisdom modifier each activation.

- Monks recieve full Base Attack Bonus, not just when using flurry of blows. The benefit of maneuver training is that Monks add their Wisdom modifier, in addition to strength, to their Combat Maneuver Bonus. The Monk's Flurry of Blows receives Improved TWF at level 6 and Greater TWF at level 11 to reflect the change in BAB. A monk can apply any natural attacks she has as secondary natural attacks with her flurry, as you normally can with a full attack.

- Bonus feats: A monk may select Catch Off-Guard, Combat Reflexes, Deflect Arrows, Dodge, Improved Grapple, Mobility, Scorpion Style, and Throw Anything as bonus feats at 1st level. At 6th level, she may also select Gorgon's Fist, Ki Throw, Snatch Arrows, Spring Attack, Tripping Twirl, and Wind Stance. At 10th level, she may also select Greater Blind-Fight, Improved Critical, Improved Ki Throw, Lightning Stance, Medusa's Wrath, and Whirlwind Attack.

- AC Bonus: A Monk gains a +1 bonus to AC, in addition to her Wisdom modifier, at level 2. This bonus increases by +1 every three levels thereafter (5th, 8th, etc...). This progression replaces the current one of +1 per 4 levels.

- Inner Strength: A monk may use her Wisdom modifer to determine bonus hit points for each Monk HD she posseses instead of Constitution. At 3rd level, the Monk has learned to fully harness her strength of will. She may now replace Constitution with Wisdom on Fortitude saves, and dies when her negative hit points total reaches her Wisdom score, rather than Constitution. If she suffers enough ability damage or drain to reduce her Constitution score to zero, the Monk remains in a catatonic state but does not die until a number of rounds equal to her wisdom score transpire, and only if her Constitution has not been brought back above 0 by then.

- A Monk's Fast Movement bonus applies to any mode of movement for which she has a listed speed.

- Ki Strike: Ki Strike (Magic) gives an actual, continuous enhancement bonus to the Monk's unarmed strikes. It starts at +1 at level 4 and increases every four Monk levels thereafter, up to +5 at 20th level. When the Monk gains Ki Strike (Lawful), her unarmed strike gains the Axiomatic magical property. Ki Strike is a Supernatural ability.

- Monks, and only Monks, may take Improved Natural Attack (Unarmed Strike) as a feat.

- Maneuver Mastery: At level 5, a Monk can initiate any combat maneuver without provoking an Attack of Opportunity. Furthermore, she is treated as though she has all the "Improved" maneuver feats and their prerequisites (such as Int 13, Combat Expertise, etc...) for the purposes of qualifying for other feats.

- Wholeness of Body only costs 1 ki point to use, and heals hit points equal to double the Monk's level as a standard action, or hit points equal to the Monk's level as a swift action, the benefit and associated action chosen by the Monk each time she uses this ability. At level 15, Wholeness of Body always heals twice the Monk's level in damage and can be used as an Immediate action. If used in this way, it can heal the damage as it happens and prevent the Monk from reaching the dying, dead, staggered, or unconscious conditions.

- Rushing Torrent: At level 7, a monk has perfected her flurrying technique and can now add her additional flurry of blows attacks to any attack action, instead of being limited to a full attack action. This includes, but is not limited to, readied actions, charges, martial strike maneuvers, and Spring Attacks. The monk simply chooses to apply the flurry attacks at the start of the action (taking the appropriate attack penalty to attack rolls). If used with Vital Strike or a similar feat, base weapon damage is only multiplied on the first attack.

- Perfect Self: In addition to the listed benefits, the Monk gains Fast Healing 5 and a Fly speed of 60 ft (plus Fast Movement) at Perfect maneuverability as constant benefits. The Monk may still be considered her original creature type (such as Humanoid) in order to receive beneficial spells or effects. Finally, the Monk gains Smite Chaos once per encounter, as the Paladin ability Smite Evil, except that it targets chaotic creatures, uses Wisdom modifer and Monk level instead of charisma and Paladin level, and deals double damage on the first hit to a chaotic outsider or a creature with the chaotic subtype.

I like! I like quite a bit actually! I'm gonna favorite that link of yours and perhaps use it in my own games after I check it out a bit. I still think monks should be able to move up to their speed in the midst of Flurry though, instead of just a 5-ft step. Gives them a better feel of mobility.. like they should have.

[some guy]

In my 3.5/pf houserules, monks get full BAB (among other things). At low levels they might be better in some area's than some martial classes and it makes them a good dip, but it certainly doesn't disrupt the game.

[StreamOfTheSky]

I like! I like quite a bit actually! I'm gonna favorite that link of yours and perhaps use it in my own games after I check it out a bit. I still think monks should be able to move up to their speed in the midst of Flurry though, instead of just a 5-ft step. Gives them a better feel of mobility.. like they should have.

Well, Rushing Torrent lets them move and add all the flurry bonus attacks, just not the entire full attack.

(I originally had it also applying to all AoOs in my extremely early 3E Monk fixes, but figured the PF crowd would freak out at that, as they've been conditioned to martials sucking so much :smallwink: )

[Eldaran]

This also has the side benefit of making the monk better at grappling and other iconic unarmed manoeuvres.



Just to point out, Monks already get that: "At 3rd level, a monk uses his monk level in place of his base attack bonus when calculating his Combat Maneuver Bonus. Base attack bonuses granted from other classes are unaffected and are added normally."

It's actually quite bizarre that Monks get full BAB on flurry and maneuvers, yet not overall. Why they just didn't give them a normal full BAB progression I don't know.