1 rogue/4 "X" arcane class/2 unseen seer/10 arcane trickster dmg

[Donny_Green]

So X= some kind of arcane casting class.

So whats the best arcane class to fill in the X, and why?

In case it matters, the level break down was made with a beguiler in mind.

[toapat]

Wizards or Sorcerers. Beguiler is actually bad at Sneak attack casters because Sneak Attack casting is based off of Ray of Frost.

you need the houserul of non-expended cantrips though.

[Grod_The_Giant]

In terms of pure optimization? Wizard, by a mile.


Bard could work. You'd probably wind up with a more physical character, but that's not a bad thing.
Beguiler, as toapat mentioned, doesn't get enough damaging spells to make the sneak attack damage worth it, or the buff spells to enter melee/ranged combat and sneak attack with weapons. It's not a bad choice, but you're not really getting anything you wouldn't be going straight Beguiler. Although if you can expand their list somehow to get a few rays, you'll be fine.
Dread Necromancer would be... umm... I don't think they get that many ranged touch attack blasty spells. Or sneaky magic. Or Int synergy. Although you would have undead to help with flanking.
Duskblade* would be a bit odd, but startlingly lethal, I should think. Arcane Channeled Sneak Attack Vamperic Grasp, anyone?
Sorcerer is bland but functional. Probably your second strongest option, as the tier system would suggestion.
Warmage* would make a decent sneak attacky blaster, I suppose. You're losing out-of-combat utility spells, but you'll have enough skills to be OK, most likely.





*Note: Not sure if they natively get the divination magic for Unseen Seer.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Volley spells, i.e. spells which make multiple attacks such as Scorching Ray, only add precision damage such as Sneak Attack to the first attack they make. The Rules Compendium updated/clarified this rule, stating that only special abilities, including spells, which take less than a full-round action to activate and make multiple attacks only add precision damage to their first attack. So if a spell takes a full-round action to cast and makes multiple attacks, such as a spontaneously cast spell with a metamagic feat, then every attack it makes gets to add precision damage such as Sneak Attack.

For this reason I'm going to recommend Sorcerer, because Warmage doesn't get Greater Invisibility and Beguiler doesn't get any spells it can sneak attack with. Between Greater Invisibility and Invisible Spell, the +0 metamagic feat that makes it so opponents can't even see the spell's visual effects, will make it so your enemies won't even know where the hits are coming from. Consider grabbing Split Ray as well, in which case I'll recommend Practical Metamagic in RotD to reduce its metamagic cost to only +1 level. The Acidic Splatter reserve feat in CM is also useful for delivering sneak attacks, if you learn the Acid Splash cantrip and get Heighten Spell you can always count your highest level spell slot available when activating that reserve feat.

Get Ancestral Relic in BoED at 3rd level and make it a custom Runestaff on MIC p224. You can put whatever spells you want into that, and even switch around what spells it contains. Make it an Elvencraft (RotW) Composite Longbow with three Wand Chambers from Dungeonscape, so as long as you're holding that you can activate any of those wands. Consider taking Spellwarp Sniper in Complete Scoundrel as well.

[gorfnab]

I would recommend a slightly different set-up:
Rogue or Spellthief 1/ Wizard (Spontaneous Divination ACF) 5/ Unseen Seer 10/ Arcane Trickster 4
Wizard is great for versatility since it can just keep adding spells to its spellbook. Unseen Seer nets you three divination spells from any list. The obvious choice is Hunter's Eye for more sneak attack damage. Divine Insight and Guidance of the Avatar are awesome divination spells for any skill heavy caster build. The feat Practiced Spellcaster will offset the CL penalty to non-divination spells from the Divination Spell Power ability.

If you just want to blast with sneak attack damage consider looking into the prestige class Spellwarp Sniper.

Also this handbook may be of some use: Sneak Attacking Spellcasters (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=1240)

[toapat]

I would recommend a slightly different set-up:
Rogue or Spellthief 1/ Wizard (Spontaneous Divination ACF) 5/ Unseen Seer 10/ Arcane Trickster 4
Wizard is great for versatility since it can just keep adding spells to its spellbook. Unseen Seer nets you three divination spells from any list. The obvious choice is Hunter's Eye for more sneak attack damage. Divine Insight and Guidance of the Avatar are awesome divination spells for any skill heavy caster build. The feat Practiced Spellcaster will offset the CL penalty to non-divination spells from the Divination Spell Power ability.

If you just want to blast with sneak attack damage consider looking into the prestige class Spellwarp Sniper.

Also this handbook may be of some use: Sneak Attacking Spellcasters (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=1240)

Ive never understood the logic of going deep unseen Seer. 3 spells you probably either can just scribe, werent going to make significant enough use of to justify, or was already going to be taken.

comparitively Trickster has better skillpoints/level and more class skills. also more sneak attack for boosting ray of frost into the most stupidly overpowered cantrip in the game

[Flickerdart]

Ive never understood the logic of going deep unseen Seer. 3 spells you probably either can just scribe, werent going to make significant enough use of to justify, or was already going to be taken.

comparitively Trickster has better skillpoints/level and more class skills. also more sneak attack for boosting ray of frost into the most stupidly overpowered cantrip in the game
You can grab divinations off other lists. Good luck trying to scribe Ranger spells.

Comparatively, being able to deal a few d6es of damage on Ray of Frost doesn't make a good character. Even if your DM houserules cantrips to be unlimited use, a warlock still does more damage than you.

[Troacctid]

Ive never understood the logic of going deep unseen Seer. 3 spells you probably either can just scribe, werent going to make significant enough use of to justify, or was already going to be taken.

comparitively Trickster has better skillpoints/level and more class skills. also more sneak attack for boosting ray of frost into the most stupidly overpowered cantrip in the game

Seer has better skill points per level. It's 6 + Int to Trickster's 4 + Int.

[Donny_Green]

I would recommend a slightly different set-up:
Rogue or Spellthief 1/ Wizard (Spontaneous Divination ACF) 5/ Unseen Seer 10/ Arcane Trickster 4
Wizard is great for versatility since it can just keep adding spells to its spellbook. Unseen Seer nets you three divination spells from any list. The obvious choice is Hunter's Eye for more sneak attack damage. Divine Insight and Guidance of the Avatar are awesome divination spells for any skill heavy caster build. The feat Practiced Spellcaster will offset the CL penalty to non-divination spells from the Divination Spell Power ability.

If you just want to blast with sneak attack damage consider looking into the prestige class Spellwarp Sniper.

Also this handbook may be of some use: Sneak Attacking Spellcasters (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=1240)

Yeah but did you notice that 9 levels of Unseen Seer bumps your caster down by 3 for any "non divination" spells. It starts with the level 3 class feature.

[Donny_Green]

Also.. is it really all about the sneak attack? Cause that's alot of the answers I'm getting.

but what about utility. I figure a beguiler can use sneak attack as his major damage, and still possesses enough utility to break into something like a medevil fort knox.

[sideswipe]

Wizards or Sorcerers. Beguiler is actually bad at Sneak attack casters because Sneak Attack casting is based off of Ray of Frost.

you need the houserul of non-expended cantrips though.

or a reserve feat? much better.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Also.. is it really all about the sneak attack? Cause that's alot of the answers I'm getting.

but what about utility. I figure a beguiler can use sneak attack as his major damage, and still possesses enough utility to break into something like a medevil fort knox.
That's what it looked like you wanted from the build you're proposing.

[toapat]

a warlock still does more damage than you.

isnt that really the case for every caster including vs the Mailman

also the op only posted the spread upto lvl 17, i assume he would return to US for the last 3 levels, which gives you 2/3 of the divinations and only -1 to CL for non-divinations.



the specific reserve feat is Acidic splash, the others dont use ranged touch attacks.

[Donny_Green]

That's what it looked like you wanted from the build you're proposing.

Indeed I did, and tried to get the most out of each class with earliest entry to Arcane Trickster. If I take my first level as a beguiler, I get trap finding; which allows me to choose use poison ACF for the rogue. I could then use poison tipped bolts with a hand crossbow (without poisoning myself).

After that it's all about skill points and spells, for everything else. To get around in hard situations, to defend myself against the enemy, and to create flatfooted/flanked conditions on said enemy or enemies.

But I wonder if this isn't overkill in the utility department, and I could accomplish most of the same without using the best utility casters in the game.

[toapat]

Indeed I did, and tried to get the most out of each class with earliest entry to Arcane Trickster. If I take my first level as a beguiler, I get trap finding; which allows me to choose use poison ACF for the rogue. I could then use poison tipped bolts with a hand crossbow (without poisoning myself).

After that it's all about skill points and spells, for everything else. To get around in hard situations, to defend myself against the enemy, and to create flatfooted/flanked conditions on said enemy or enemies.

But I wonder if this isn't overkill in the utility department, and I could accomplish most of the same without using the best utility casters in the game.

its not overkill, its just incorrect. alot of the advantage of being a Seer/Trickster build is that you can actually use weaponlike spells effectively. at the higher end you use Acidic splatter in place of weaponlike spells entirely because you never have to expend the acid spell you are using to power that feat.

Beguiler doesnt have access to the spells needed for either Acidic Splatter or have Ray of Frost.

you also get more utility out of Wizard/Sorc (if you can retrain spells each level) than anything else

[Flickerdart]

isnt that really the case for every caster including vs the Mailman
No. It's trivial to out-damage warlocks. But 1d3+6d6 isn't how you do it. At the late levels when you get that much SA, 6d6 (average 17.5) damage is a joke, and is certainly not needed to "use weapon-like spells effectively" when the selfsame Disintegrate you've had since level 13 hits for 40d6.

[paperarmor]

In terms of pure optimization? Wizard, by a mile.


Duskblade* would be a bit odd, but startlingly lethal, I should think. Arcane Channeled Sneak Attack Vamperic Grasp, anyone?





*Note: Not sure if they natively get the divination magic for Unseen Seer.

It depends on if both Divination spells have to be first level or not. If not then Rogue 1/ Duskblade 5/ Unseen seer10/X caster prc 4 can use a combination of the afore mentioned spells/class features with hunter's eye and staggering stike and be completly crazy.

[toapat]

No. It's trivial to out-damage warlocks. But 1d3+6d6 isn't how you do it. At the late levels when you get that much SA, 6d6 (average 17.5) damage is a joke, and is certainly not needed to "use weapon-like spells effectively" when the selfsame Disintegrate you've had since level 13 hits for 40d6.

the point is that Disintegrate hits once and is gone, and the point of putting sneak attack on weaponlike spells (or more accurately, to use infinite ones such as PF style cantrip Ray of Frost or the Acidic Splash reserve feat) is just the most efficient way to boost them, at between hunter's eye and the 8d6 the op's build would get, +14d6 per WLS isnt bad. the point was that is that it is not the reality of the situation that the warlock is a better offensive blaster with lower minimum requirement of investment then anyone else.

[Flickerdart]

the point is that Disintegrate hits once and is gone, and the point of putting sneak attack on weaponlike spells (or more accurately, to use infinite ones such as PF style cantrip Ray of Frost or the Acidic Splash reserve feat) is just the most efficient way to boost them, at between hunter's eye and the 8d6 the op's build would get, +14d6 per WLS isnt bad. the point was that is that it is not the reality of the situation that the warlock is a better offensive blaster with lower minimum requirement of investment then anyone else.
Do people still labour under the misapprehension that sustained low damage is somehow a viable way to kill stuff? I thought we got over this back in 2004?

[toapat]

Do people still labour under the misapprehension that sustained low damage is somehow a viable way to kill stuff? I thought we got over this back in 2004?

is (SL+14)d6/attack really that low? i know its not UBercharger's 3k/attack or the Mailman's Slay everything in range

[Flickerdart]

is (SL+14)d6/attack really that low? i know its not UBercharger's 3k/attack or the Mailman's Slay everything in range
Yes. Let's say that you somehow had enough build resources to persist Hunter's Eye and also get Acidic Splatter and all those levels you want, and then also waste one of your 9th level slots on an acid spell you never cast (did you know there are no 9th level [Acid] spells? Better waste a feat on Heighten or Energy Substitution, too). Let's then say you walk up to 30 feet of a monster that's not immune to SA without it noticing you're there, so you can get SA.

You deal 25d6 (average 87.5 damage) as a standard action, provided you hit with your attack. A balor has 290 HP. A pit fiend has 225. CR20 dragons have HP in the 300s-400s range. And these are monsters that are supposed to be trivial to fight for a 20th level character.

To exceed the damage you spent your entire build on, and do it more reliably, a full BAB warrior type needs to deal 22 damage per attack (times 4 attacks = 88 damage). 2d6 (greatsword, avg 7) + 5 (magic weapon) + 10 (strength score) hits that before any class features or feats come into play.

When unoptimized melee is better than you, it's really that low.

[toapat]

Yes. Let's say that you somehow had enough build resources to persist Hunter's Eye and also get Acidic Splatter and all those levels you want, and then also waste one of your 9th level slots on an acid spell you never cast (did you know there are no 9th level [Acid] spells? Better waste a feat on Heighten or Energy Substitution, too). Let's then say you walk up to 30 feet of a monster that's not immune to SA without it noticing you're there, so you can get SA.

You deal 25d6 (average 87.5 damage) as a standard action, provided you hit with your attack. A balor has 290 HP. A pit fiend has 225. CR20 dragons have HP in the 300s-400s range. And these are monsters that are supposed to be trivial to fight for a 20th level character.

To exceed the damage you spent your entire build on, and do it more reliably, a full BAB warrior type needs to deal 22 damage per attack (times 4 attacks = 88 damage). 2d6 (greatsword, avg 7) + 5 (magic weapon) + 10 (strength score) hits that before any class features or feats come into play.

When unoptimized melee is better than you, it's really that low.

Energy Sub (acid): meteor swarm. Or deal with loosing 2d6 and just keep a permanent Greater Master of Elements

Lesser Rod of Persistant spell: Cheap

combined thats 1 spell slot and 2/1 feats depending on build with all remaining slots allowed for other options, such as heroics to get yourself IC: Orb

and, on average, that warrior only deals 44 damage/round not 88.

[Flickerdart]

Lesser Rod of Persistant spell: Cheap

What book is that in?


and, on average, that warrior only deals 44 damage/round not 88.
Then you're building your warriors wrong.

[toapat]

What book is that in?


Then you're building your warriors wrong.

People calculated it out, its between 77,000 and 100,000g


How are you getting 6 attacks per round? hitting with the 3+4th itterative is extremely difficult and unreliable and why Standard attack > full attack

[Ellowryn]

He said/wrote 4 attacks, not 6, and even then most half optimized actually have 5 at twenty, plus pounce. With shock trooper you dont lose any BaB when power attacking so the only penalty you have is the iterative attack so you have 2 at 20, 1 at 15, 1 at 10, and 1 at 5, add in the +5 from the weapon enhancement and for the sake of the example +10 str you get attacks at +35,35,30,25,and 20. As ac becomes mostly moot after level 10 means that without some other form of warding off attacks all of those should hit.

For damage, again we will go with +10 Str modifier, so each attack with full power attack deals 40 + 15 str + 5 enhancement + 2d6 (greatsword) so about 67 damage per hit.

But thats about all he can do, which is why casters with thing like save or die spells are much better.

[toapat]

He said/wrote 4 attacks, not 6, and even then most half optimized actually have 5 at twenty, plus pounce. With shock trooper you dont lose any BaB when power attacking so the only penalty you have is the iterative attack so you have 2 at 20, 1 at 15, 1 at 10, and 1 at 5, add in the +5 from the weapon enhancement and for the sake of the example +10 str you get attacks at +35,35,30,25,and 20. As ac becomes mostly moot after level 10 means that without some other form of warding off attacks all of those should hit.

his example was unoptomized, not an ubercharger who is expected to single round destroy anything with a listed hp at 20

also, shock trooper does lose BAB on Power attack, its just that the penalty is capped at -2

[Ellowryn]

his example was unoptomized, not an ubercharger who is expected to single round destroy anything with a listed hp at 20

also, shock trooper does lose BAB on Power attack, its just that the penalty is capped at -2

That was unoptimized, 1 level of barbarian, 3 feats (power attack, improved bullrush, and shocktrooper), a +5 sword, and 30 str. Thats it. Oh and shocktrooper lets you assign your BaB penalty from power attack to ac instead.

[(Un)Inspired]

Energy Sub (acid): meteor swarm. Or deal with loosing 2d6 and just keep a permanent Greater Master of Elements

Lesser Rod of Persistant spell: Cheap

combined thats 1 spell slot and 2/1 feats depending on build with all remaining slots allowed for other options, such as heroics to get yourself IC: Orb

and, on average, that warrior only deals 44 damage/round not 88.


Why on earth would any caster ever cast meteor swarm? If were dealing with sneak attack the spell you want to use is telekinesis. Period. No arguments.

Maaaaybe fire shuriken if for some reason you aren't carrying a load of tiny projectiles on you to fling but if you're a sneak attack caster why would you ever be in that position?

Using unseen seer and Gorfab's spell combination you can do you full sneak attack damage 15 times with a single casting if the spell. +300 damage from craven. You can probably double that if you cast twinned telekinesis.

[toapat]

Why on earth would any caster ever cast meteor swarm? If were dealing with sneak attack the spell you want to use is telekinesis. Period. No arguments.

Maaaaybe fire shuriken if for some reason you aren't carrying a load of tiny projectiles on you to fling but if you're a sneak attack caster why would you ever be in that position?

Using unseen seer and Gorfab's spell combination you can do you full sneak attack damage 15 times with a single casting if the spell. +300 damage from craven. You can probably double that if you cast twinned telekinesis.

because the power of Acidic Splatter is determined by your highest Prepared/Known acid spell. For Sorcerers this caps them at Greater Master of Elements for the feat, for Wizards, Meteor Swarm is one of the few spells at 9th level with an elemental descriptor, allowing for it to be affected by Energy Sub. In uses of Acidic Splatter a Sneak attack mage would have outclassed the single target damage of Meteor swarm.

Fire Shuriken is horrid for sneak attack. You are better off using True-Strike + Reach weapon when your range Increment is 10 feet, because you cant sneak attack outside of your first range increment.

Telekinesis doesnt have a Precision damage callout, rendering it worthless. The entire point is that Acidic Splatter + Acid spell = Infinite use Acid Orb with CL = Known/Prepared Spell's level.

[Flickerdart]

People calculated it out, its between 77,000 and 100,000g
Please have the common courtesy to label homebrew materials as such. "People calculating stuff" is not a WotC publication.


you cant sneak attack outside of your first range increment.
SA is capped at 30ft, regardless of range increments.

Bro, do you even rules?

[toapat]

SA is capped at 30ft, regardless of range increments.

i remember there being a call out that it also had to be in the first range increment somewhere.

granted the rod is not cheap but its not excessively expensive.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

because the power of Acidic Splatter is determined by your highest Prepared/Known acid spell. For Sorcerers this caps them at Greater Master of Elements for the feat, for Wizards, Meteor Swarm is one of the few spells at 9th level with an elemental descriptor, allowing for it to be affected by Energy Sub. In uses of Acidic Splatter a Sneak attack mage would have outclassed the single target damage of Meteor swarm.

Fire Shuriken is horrid for sneak attack. You are better off using True-Strike + Reach weapon when your range Increment is 10 feet, because you cant sneak attack outside of your first range increment.

Telekinesis doesnt have a Precision damage callout, rendering it worthless. The entire point is that Acidic Splatter + Acid spell = Infinite use Acid Orb with CL = Known/Prepared Spell's level.

Telekinesis doesn't have to specifically state that it deals precision damage, because anything that makes an attack roll can deal precision damage.

Sorcerer + Acid Splash (0-level spell) + Heighten Spell means you can automatically count your highest-level available spell slot as a possible Heightened Acid Splash whenever you activate Acidic Splatter.

A Sorcerer can cast Invisible Scorching Ray as a full-round action to deliver up to three sneak attacks with it, or four with Split Ray, or five with Reserves of Strength, or six with both Split Ray and Reserves of Strength. Six sneak attacks from one 3rd level spell slot with Practical Metamagic or a 2nd level slot with Arcane Thesis at level 18, or five sneak attacks at level 14 with that.

If you really want to do some silly sneak attacking, Persistent Cloud of Knives as many times as you can possibly cast it, especially with Fell Drain, would be the way to go. Every round you'll get that many free-action attacks, each of which can deal sneak attack because they each make an attack roll.

[toapat]

Telekinesis doesn't have to specifically state that it deals precision damage, because anything that makes an attack roll can deal precision damage.

Sorcerer + Acid Splash (0-level spell) + Heighten Spell means you can automatically count your highest-level available spell slot as a possible Heightened Acid Splash whenever you activate Acidic Splatter.

A Sorcerer can cast Invisible Scorching Ray as a full-round action to deliver up to three sneak attacks with it, or four with Split Ray, or five with Reserves of Strength, or six with both Split Ray and Reserves of Strength. Six sneak attacks from one 3rd level spell slot with Practical Metamagic or a 2nd level slot with Arcane Thesis at level 18, or five sneak attacks at level 14 with that.

If you really want to do some silly sneak attacking, Persistent Cloud of Knives as many times as you can possibly cast it, especially with Fell Drain, would be the way to go. Every round you'll get that many free-action attacks, each of which can deal sneak attack because they each make an attack roll.

Not the callout i mean with sneak attack. Volley attacks need to call out that each attack deals Precision, otherwise it only applies once Per target

Heighten doesnt work that way for a sorcerer when talking about reserve feats, You dont know Heightened Acid Splash, you know Acid Splash, a 0th level spell.

Again, doesnt have the volley callout.

Persistant Cloud of Knives is a silly way to use it but effective.


Edit: Added the exception about volleys

[Flickerdart]

granted the rod is not cheap but its not excessively expensive.
The rod doesn't exist unless your DM graciously permits you to add a custom item that can't be made with the standard item guidelines into his game. A custom item that costs nearly one seventh of 20th level WBL and gives you free use of one of the game's most powerful feats.

I mean, if you were using it to do a worthless 87.5 damage per round, it might be allowed, just because it's so funny.

[toapat]

The rod doesn't exist unless your DM graciously permits you to add a custom item that can't be made with the standard item guidelines into his game. A custom item that costs nearly one seventh of 20th level WBL and gives you free use of one of the game's most powerful feats.

I mean, if you were using it to do a worthless 87.5 damage per round, it might be allowed, just because it's so funny.

a Feat trigger item of DMM: Persist could effect any spell with 3 uses/day and costs 54k. The lesser rod is not the most broken way to make that item and is more expensive

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Not the callout i mean with sneak attack. Volley attacks need to call out that each attack deals Precision, otherwise it only applies once Per target

Heighten doesnt work that way for a sorcerer when talking about reserve feats, You dont know Heightened Acid Splash, you know Acid Splash, a 0th level spell.

Again, doesnt have the volley callout.

Persistant Cloud of Knives is a silly way to use it but effective.


Edit: Added the exception about volleys

Reserve feats don't work the way you think they work:
"As long as you have an acid spell of 2nd level or higher available to cast, you can throw an orb of acid as a ranged touch attack. The attack has a range of 5 feet per level of the highest-level acid spell you have available to cast and deals 1d6 points of damage per level of that acid spell."

If a Sorcerer knows Acid Splash, has Heighten Spell, and has an open 9th level spell slot, then he has a 9th level acid spell available to cast. If he could cast that spell right now, then he has it available right now.


Rules Compendium specifically states that any special attack, including spells, which takes a full-round action to use and makes multiple attacks gets to add precision damage on every attacks. Individual spells don't need to call this out, it's built into the rules. A Sorcerer casting Telekinesis, or Scorching Ray, or any other 'volley' spell with a metamagic feat will increase its casting time to a full-round action and make every one of its attacks eligible to deal precision damage.

[Flickerdart]

a Feat trigger item of DMM: Persist could effect any spell with 3 uses/day and costs 54k. The lesser rod is not the most broken way to make that item and is more expensive
I don't see anything called a "feat trigger" after a Google search. Is this another rule you're making up?

[toapat]

If a Sorcerer knows Acid Splash, has Heighten Spell, and has an open 9th level spell slot, then he has a 9th level acid spell available to cast. If he could cast that spell right now, then he has it available right now.

Im seeing no where i can say you are correct. Heightened Acid Splash can be any level of spell but it doesnt count as a spell known for reserve because its a Metamagic spell.


I don't see anything called a "feat trigger" after a Google search. Is this another rule you're making up?

nope, personally im in doubt of that one too, but i found a few notes in the Rules Compendium involving Metamagic influenced scrolls so i can see where the logic came from.

[Flickerdart]

Im seeing no where i can say you are correct. Heightened Acid Splash can be any level of spell but it doesnt count as a spell known for reserve because its a Metamagic spell.
Reserve feats don't care whether you know a spell or not.

[toapat]

Reserve feats don't care whether you know a spell or not.

they do if you are a spontaneous caster, its right their in their descriptor.

"A spellcaster who does not need to prepare spells (such as a sorcerer) must know an appropriate spell and must have at least one unused spell slot of that spell's level or higher"

[Flickerdart]

nope, personally im in doubt of that one too, but i found a few notes in the Rules Compendium involving Metamagic influenced scrolls so i can see where the logic came from.
How many times do I have to spell this out? Metamagic rods of Persist are not real items. Any such rod is homebrew and cannot be assumed to exist in a game.

[toapat]

How many times do I have to spell this out? Metamagic rods of Persist are not real items. Any such rod is homebrew and cannot be assumed to exist in a game.

as are all uses of Item Familiar and Craft Magical Tattoo (Faerun), as well as being able to actually use Gems of Fortification on non-reptilian PCs

you can allow optimization of Items or none at all, when i can point to 2 entire feats relying on homebrew

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

they do if you are a spontaneous caster, its right their in their descriptor.

"A spellcaster who does not need to prepare spells (such as a sorcerer) must know an appropriate spell and must have at least one unused spell slot of that spell's level or higher"


A spellcaster who does not need to prepare spells (such as
a sorcerer) must know an appropriate spell and must have at
least one unused spell slot of that spell's level or higher. If
the character has more than one appropriate spell known, he
gains the benefit only from the highest-level spell for which
he has an unused spell slot of that level or higher.

If a Sorcerer has Heighten Spell, then Acid Splash is an appropriate spell for learning and using Acidic Splatter. Heighten Spell makes it count as a higher level spell, so if he has a spell slot of any given level available, then that spell slot makes an Acid Splash of that level available to cast.


as are all uses of Item Familiar and Craft Magical Tattoo (Faerun), as well as being able to actually use Gems of Fortification on non-reptilian PCs

you can allow optimization of Items or none at all, when i can point to 2 entire feats relying on homebrew

All of those things you mentioned actually DO have built-in rules for customization. No such customization rules exist for metamagic rods.

[toapat]

If a Sorcerer has Heighten Spell, then Acid Splash is an appropriate spell for learning and using Acidic Splatter. Heighten Spell makes it count as a higher level spell, so if he has a spell slot of any given level available, then that spell slot makes an Acid Splash of that level available to cast.

That assumes you can count Heighten Spell as part of a Known spell, which as far as i can see, absolutely does not anywhere.


All of those things you mentioned actually DO have built-in rules for customization. No such customization rules exist for metamagic rods.

except that if no custom things are allowed to exist those cant either. You are either Restricted to only existing finished items or allow custom

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

That assumes you can count Heighten Spell as part of a Known spell, which as far as i can see, absolutely does not anywhere.

The general rules for reserve feats state spell known, but if a specific reserve feat states available to cast then specific trumps general.

[toapat]

The general rules for reserve feats state spell known, but if a specific reserve feat states available to cast then specific trumps general.

Nope, because that section is the definition of Available to cast, as declared 2 paragraphs above it in the descriptor.

Either way, the best class for reserve feats is Cleric, then Wizard and Archivist, then Druid and all 9th level spontaneous, then all other casters.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

except that if no custom things are allowed to exist those cant either.

If the rules specifically state that you can make a wand, or staff, or scroll, etc. of a spell for which there's not an existing, printed wand or staff or scroll, then you can do that. Customization is built into the rules.

Item Familiars can be upgraded as though you possessed the appropriate item creation feats. There are existing rules for how to customize intelligent magic items (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/intelligentItems.htm), the rules say you're allowed to do it.

Regarding upgrading existing items, "A creator can add new magical abilities to a magic item with no restrictions. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/creatingMagicItems.htm#addingNewAbilities)" That means any magical ability that already exists within the rules can be upgraded onto an existing item if you meet the prerequisites and follow the appropriate rules for magic item creation. Magic item customization exists because the rules say you're allowed to do it.

The rules DO NOT say a player is allowed to put made-up metamagic rods into the game, regardless of whether or not he would meet all the prerequisites to create such an item. If that item effect does not already exist within the rules, then it does not exist within the game and it cannot be put onto a magic item by a PC. The DMG includes rules for making up new magic items, but this capability is only available to the DM.


Nope, because that section is the definition of Available to cast, as declared 2 paragraphs above it in the descriptor.

Either way, the best class for reserve feats is Cleric, then Wizard and Archivist, then Druid and all 9th level spontaneous, then all other casters.

It's still open to interpretation. The definition of the minimum required to select and use a reserve feat, versus what a character actually has available within his capabilities for determining the strength of a given reserve feat's activation, are not the same thing.

A Druid may not have a Summon Nature's Ally IX prepared, but he can spontaneously convert a prepared 9th level spell into that at any given time. That 9th level Conjuration (summoning) spell is within his capabilities to cast, it's available to him right now, and it can be used to determine the strength of his Summon Elemental reserve feat.

Similarly, a Sorcerer who knows Acid Splash and has Heighten Spell and an open 9th level spell slot has a 9th level acid spell within his capabilities to cast, it's available to him right now, and it can be used to determine the strength of his Acidic Splatter reserve feat.

[toapat]

It's still open to interpretation. The definition of the minimum required to select and use a reserve feat, versus what a character actually has available within his capabilities for determining the strength of a given reserve feat's activation, are not the same thing.

A Druid may not have a Summon Nature's Ally IX prepared, but he can spontaneously convert a prepared 9th level spell into that at any given time. That 9th level Conjuration (summoning) spell is within his capabilities to cast, it's available to him right now, and it can be used to determine the strength of his Summon Elemental reserve feat.

Similarly, a Sorcerer who knows Acid Splash and has Heighten Spell and an open 9th level spell slot has a 9th level acid spell within his capabilities to cast, it's available to him right now, and it can be used to determine the strength of his Acidic Splatter reserve feat.

No, its not. The only interpretation you can make is based on the definition of Spells Known, which in and of itself is not a hard defined term in terms of what that constitutes. However none of what i see lets me know a spell with an inherent metamagic. Do you know how to cast a 9th level Acid spell? yes. Do you know how to cast a distinct 9th level Acid spell without metamagic? no. Nothing in the rules of Wizard or Sorcerer claims that you cant learn the same spell 10 times. Nothing in the rules says that a Sorcerer gets to count Heighten as part of their spells known because its a feat, not a spell

Your druid counterexample doesnt work because there are 9 natures ally spells and druids always have them available, which is the same problem with trying to use cleric as an example.

[(Un)Inspired]

because the power of Acidic Splatter is determined by your highest Prepared/Known acid spell. For Sorcerers this caps them at Greater Master of Elements for the feat, for Wizards, Meteor Swarm is one of the few spells at 9th level with an elemental descriptor, allowing for it to be affected by Energy Sub. In uses of Acidic Splatter a Sneak attack mage would have outclassed the single target damage of Meteor swarm.

Fire Shuriken is horrid for sneak attack. You are better off using True-Strike + Reach weapon when your range Increment is 10 feet, because you cant sneak attack outside of your first range increment.

Telekinesis doesnt have a Precision damage callout, rendering it worthless. The entire point is that Acidic Splatter + Acid spell = Infinite use Acid Orb with CL = Known/Prepared Spell's level.

Fire shuriken works cause it gives you multiple shots to tag SA into.

Acidic splatter is only a single attack on SA which is sad. Like cry myself to sleep sad.

Telekinesis lets you make attacks ergo you can SA with them. You have no need for true strike cause even without a touch attack boosting your attack bonus is trivial.

The only way sneak attack kind of works a little but sort of as a damage method is to get a buttload of attacks with it all in one round and telekinesis is a duper simple way to do that.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

No, its not. The only interpretation you can make is based on the definition of Spells Known, which in and of itself is not a hard defined term in terms of what that constitutes. However none of what i see lets me know a spell with an inherent metamagic. Do you know how to cast a 9th level Acid spell? yes. Do you know how to cast a distinct 9th level Acid spell without metamagic? no. Nothing in the rules of Wizard or Sorcerer claims that you cant learn the same spell 10 times. Nothing in the rules says that a Sorcerer gets to count Heighten as part of their spells known because its a feat, not a spell

Your druid counterexample doesnt work because there are 9 natures ally spells and druids always have them available, which is the same problem with trying to use cleric as an example.

"A spellcaster who prepares spells each day (such as a wizard) must have an appropriate spell prepared and not yet cast that day."
"A spellcaster who does not need to prepare spells (such as a sorcerer) must know an appropriate spell and must have at least one unused spell slot of that spell's level or higher."

A Druid can convert a prepared spell into a SNA of the same level, but if he leaves a spell slot open and unused he cannot use it to cast a SNA spell of that level. Let's say that Druid only has one 9th level spell slot, if he prepares a spell in that slot that's not SNA IX he can still cast a SNA IX by converting that prepared spell, but this does not fulfill either of the above quotes. If he leaves that one 9th level spell slot empty, then he fulfills the second above quote since he normally doesn't need to prepare SNA IX, so he can count a 9th level summoning spell as 'available to cast' for the Summon Elemental reserve feat. However, leaving that spell slot empty makes it so he's not actually capable of casting that spell. Are you saying that the above quotes are not open to interpretation, when I've given a specific example of a character not actually capable of casting a spell being counted by those rules as having that spell 'available to cast' for his reserve feat?

[Flickerdart]

except that if no custom things are allowed to exist those cant either. You are either Restricted to only existing finished items or allow custom
There is a massive difference between custom items built on clearly established guidelines, and custom items built on made-up nonsense. And a DM is in full right to allow one custom item and deny another custom item even when they use the same custom item guidelines. Nowhere does it say "verily, Master of Dungeons, thou must either suffer no custom item, or permit the players to do whatever the hell they want, and a third option there shall not be."

[toapat]

"A spellcaster who prepares spells each day (such as a wizard) must have an appropriate spell prepared and not yet cast that day."
"A spellcaster who does not need to prepare spells (such as a sorcerer) must know an appropriate spell and must have at least one unused spell slot of that spell's level or higher."

A Druid can convert a prepared spell into a SNA of the same level, but if he leaves a spell slot open and unused he cannot use it to cast a SNA spell of that level. Let's say that Druid only has one 9th level spell slot, if he prepares a spell in that slot that's not SNA IX he can still cast a SNA IX by converting that prepared spell, but this does not fulfill either of the above quotes. If he leaves that one 9th level spell slot empty, then he fulfills the second above quote since he normally doesn't need to prepare SNA IX, so he can count a 9th level summoning spell as 'available to cast' for the Summon Elemental reserve feat. However, leaving that spell slot empty makes it so he's not actually capable of casting that spell. Are you saying that the above quotes are not open to interpretation, when I've given a specific example of a character not actually capable of casting a spell being counted by those rules as having that spell 'available to cast' for his reserve feat?

The Spontaneous casting class feature of Clerics and Druids is affected by the spontaneous spellcaster clause of Reserve feats, because in the rules it is spontaneous casting in every way possible.

This is only the thousandth time someone has refferenced an insufficiently comprehensive rule example.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

The Spontaneous casting class feature of Clerics and Druids is affected by the spontaneous spellcaster clause of Reserve feats, because in the rules it is spontaneous casting in every way possible.

This is only the thousandth time someone has refferenced an insufficiently comprehensive rule example.

I think you missed it:
"A spellcaster who does not need to prepare spells (such as a sorcerer) must know an appropriate spell and must have at least one unused spell slot of that spell's level or higher."

The Druid in my example must leave his 9th level spell slot empty to fulfill having that SNA IX 'available to cast' according to the version of that for spontaneous spellcasters. This will make him unable to cast SNA IX because he can only convert a prepared spell into it, he cannot cast it from an empty spell slot. Casting that SNA IX spell is not within that character's capabilities that day, but he can still count that spell as 'available to cast' according to the dysfunctional RAW.

Which is why I stated that it's open to interpretation. A hard RAW for what's 'available to cast' for purposes of reserve feats would need to be several pages long if it was to account for every game mechanic which could modify what spells a character is currently capable of casting which could interact with their reserve feats. For purposes of what's actually usable in play, a character's actual capabilities would be taken into consideration over a dysfunctional rule that says a character has the spell 'available to cast' even though casting it is not within his capabilities.

[toapat]

unused spell slot

And? the terms for the status of a given spell slot are Open/Prepared and Unused/Expended. There is no conflict

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

And? the terms for the status of a given spell slot are Open/Prepared and Unused/Expended. There is no conflict

You have spell slots, and you have prepared spells. Once a spell is prepared in a spell slot, it's no longer a spell slot, it's a prepared spell.

"When preparing spells for the day, a wizard can leave some of these spell slots open. Later during that day, she can repeat the preparation process as often as she likes, time and circumstances permitting. During these extra sessions of preparation, the wizard can fill these unused spell slots. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/arcaneSpells.htm#wizardSpellSelectionandPreparatio n)"

A spell slot that has a spell prepared in it is not an 'unused spell slot' because it has been used to prepare that spell.

[toapat]

A spell slot that has a spell prepared in it is not an 'unused spell slot' because it has been used to prepare that spell.

except that is a contextual application of the term outside of the normal definition in relation to the usage of Open Spellslots.

The more common use of Unused in relation to spells is based off of the Casting a spell section of the PBH where Unused is the opposite of expended.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

except that is a contextual application of the term outside of the normal definition in relation to the usage of Open Spellslots.

The more common use of Unused in relation to spells is based off of the Casting a spell section of the PBH where Unused is the opposite of expended.

Every bit of the PHB magic chapter is contained in the pages linked from here (http://www.d20srd.org/indexes/magicOverview.htm). The only one of all those pages that contains the word 'unused' is the one I quoted. That is the only official definition of an 'unused spell slot' and the one we'll have to use.

[toapat]

Every bit of the PHB magic chapter is contained in the pages linked from here (http://www.d20srd.org/indexes/magicOverview.htm). The only one of all those pages that contains the word 'unused' is the one I quoted. That is the only official definition of an 'unused spell slot' and the one we'll have to use.

then the word has no direct definition at all, and even the refference is worthless because Unused is fluff within the definition of Open Spell Slot.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

then the word has no direct definition at all, and even the refference is worthless because Unused is fluff within the definition of Open Spell Slot.

You're claiming a strict RAW position, and then trying to ignore the RAW which are inconvenient to your position. When a prepared caster leaves a spell slot empty when preparing spells, it's counted as an 'unused spell slot' per the rules on preparing spells. Thus for a Druid to use his ability to spontaneously cast a SNA spell to activate Summon Elemental, he'll have to leave a spell slot empty when preparing spells in order for it to be counted as an 'unused spell slot' for him. My example still stands, the rules on 'available to cast' for reserve feats are still dysfunctional and open to interpretation. Regarding what would actually see play in a real game, the nonsensical 'available to cast' rules will most often be disregarded in favor of judging reserve feats on the character's actual capabilities, in which case a spell slot available for a Heightened Acid Splash is the ideal method for activating the Acidic Splatter reserve feat.

[toapat]

You're claiming a strict RAW position, and then trying to ignore the RAW which are inconvenient to your position.

No, im ignoring a redundant line that references back into the rest of the paragraph without being relevant to the definition.