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Thoughtbot360
2007-03-01, 10:13 PM
I've been thinking, most fantasy races are really humans PLUS better senses/longer lifespans/super strength/regeneration/lifting ability/inherient magical ability/Very Quiet Foot steps/ad nausem. This is why humans are usually the "Middle-of-the-road" race with no penalties. But, if you think about it, most racial penalties to ability scores make no sense. (yeah, yeah, Orcs are dumb and the little folk are weak, but still!) I mean don't dwarves need diplomats to represent them just as much as anyone? And, how do elves even build up the courage to become adventurers when they have their whole, long lives ahead of them AND when its a documented fact that Elves are just not as hardy as them other races (I can think up a few numbercrunched elves with their con left at 6 that I imagine should feel very nervous after their 5th ressurection over three sessions....)

3rd edition and 3.5 have tried to spice up humans by giving them an extra feat and more skill points, but if a DM rules more skill points for all (see the "Why are fighters so unskilled" thread) even that goes out the door. Besides, shouldn't elves start with more ranks and feats because their childhood (and, I assume, education.) lasts about 100 years? I've come up with some possible bonus penalties for the D20 races.

Elves: suffer even greater penalties when exposed to light-based or sound-based negative effects, due to over-sensitive vision and hearing (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0016.html). Half-elves get half the penalty increase pureblood elves do.
Drow: They get double the Elves penalty increase for being native to the underdark.
Halflings and Gnomes: Hmm..not much to add. Maybe take away some of the Gnome's bonuses and spell-like abilities, and the Save bonuses for Halflings but...
Snirve...Sarle...Deep Gnomes: Don't have these. They are a munchkin's wet dream. +4 AC vs. Everything my ass.
Orcs: They have one: Daylight weakness. They actually need some more bonuses, IMO. Lookitme! I have +2 Strength! That means I rule the world! Not sure what to do about Half-orcs.
Goblins, Kobolds: Like Orcs, they didn't have enough bonuses to begin with, but you can simply not give them a penalty, just like humans.
Dwarves: Well, they have a speed decrease, but-I think they need something else, considering their free (with the purchase of any martial weapon class) proficency with two exotic weapons (waraxes are quite good in my opinion. I loves my d10. LOVES my d10!:smallredface: ) and resistance to poison, spells, bull rushing, and Giants. I mean, if you don't specifically need 20 Dex or 20 Str (Powergamer.)why not pick a dwarf? Dwarves have even more racial abilities than I listed here and they all rock.
Lizardfolk: One word: Torpor.
Ogres, Minotaurs, Hill Giants, and other powerful, but primitive humanoids- Don't let them have character levels (or be PCs). They can pull out trees, but rule that they are hunter-gatherers and haven't had the leisure to develop any better weapons (I mean, think about it. Do you know how much metal you'd need to forge an Ogre-sized greatsword?) Make them anti-social towards the more advanced races (even though dealing with other cultures would benefit them...even Orcs could train them to be Barbarians...)

Smarter monsters-Screw it. They should have dominated the world by now. Especially those that are smarter than the corebook races. And theres no penalty I can slam on them that'll save the corebook races from becoming, at best, second-class citizens in a world ruled by Mindflayers and Storm Giants.

Actually, in my opinion, A fantasy world that has either humans OR tolkenesque nonhumans makes more sense.

Toliudar
2007-03-01, 10:31 PM
Well, usually I think of it that the very intelligent/powerful races face one or more of the following impediments to ruling the world:

* Slow or complicated reproduction (dragons, dwarves)
* A lack of desire to multiply/conquer/enslave (Storm giants, most were-races, halflings, gnomes, elves)
* A tendancy to eat the people they conquer (giant-class)
* They're just as likely to fight each other as any other race (orcs, goblinoids)
* The universal awareness that these races are wholly untrustworthy, and should be killed on sight -> other races ganging up on them when they get a little more powerful (Mind Flayers, Drow, Aboleths, etc)

Did I miss some?

So, I have no problem with a world in which humans have a slight edge, but are constantly threatened with extinction or subjugation by any number of threats.

Shhalahr Windrider
2007-03-01, 10:37 PM
Edit: oops, meant to do something about magic but decided not too, and forgot to clear up thread title.
You can change the title of any thread you've started within 28 days of its post. Just double click the white space after the thread's name on the main forum page and a text box will appear, allowing you to rename the thread.

Sardia
2007-03-02, 01:21 AM
I generally go with geographic isolation-- Elves live way over here, Orcs over here, Dwarves mainly underground, etc.
Adventurers of whatever stripe are very much the exception to the norm just in terms of their mobility-- they're the far-wandering mercenaries or tavellers who'll wind up seeing the world. Everyone else tends to stay close to home where it's most comfortable.

Talanic
2007-03-02, 02:13 AM
Yeah, I've been writing a series stories with an elflike race. In D&D terms, they'd be along the lines of +2 dex/con, -2 str/int, long lived, slow regeneration for lost limbs/organs, treats all skills as class skills for how many points raise rank by one (always 1 point) and treats all skills as cross-class skills for max ranks per level (half normal). Climb speed 20.

Of six races in the stories, those are the most humanlike.

Thoughtbot360
2007-03-02, 02:25 AM
* Slow or complicated reproduction (dragons, dwarves)


Dwarves have complicated reproduction? I think you confused elves with dwarves. I think you meant to have elves in the slow reproduction crowd and dwarves in the lack of desire to conquer crowd.

Beleriphon
2007-03-02, 03:06 AM
I find the easiest way to explain some of issues you might have with world dominating races, or rather ones that should but don't. The easiest explanation is no cultural drive to do so, or the species as a whole is so fractured that they would never agree or end up destroying each other. Dragons are a good example of this, individually they are stupid powerful and could easily rule an area of the country side, but they could never rule a kingdom since some other dragon would come along and kill them.

In many ways the mind flayers are similar. They all have similar goals, but generally don't get along terribly well in large groups, again a culture block prevents them from achieving mad world pwnage.

The_Snark
2007-03-02, 03:13 AM
Mind flayers aren't really disorganized. They gather in small groups because of limited food supplies in an area, not because they don't get along; the elder brains pretty much ensure that they get along, or they die.

It's a matter of scale, in the case of aboleths and mind flayers. Aboleths are immortal, they aren't in any rush, and there aren't many of them. Same goes for the mind flayers; there's the numbers problem, the logistics of getting enough mind flayers and loyal thralls to rule surface populations while keeping them all fed, and the elder brains want to take their time and get their conquest exactly right.

For other races, conquest either isn't a priority, or the race is far too scattered and doesn't have the numbers and/or teamwork to effect a large-scale conquest.

It does sometimes seem unrealistic to have all these intelligent creatures, which as a rule are more powerful than humans but nevertheless don't rule the world, so it's probably best to limit the ones in your world to the ones you plan on using.

And remember, by the standards of things like dragons, giants, and elves, humans breed (and spread) like cockroaches, and are equally difficult to exterminate.

Dark
2007-03-02, 08:16 AM
When two dwarves love each other very, very, much, they get together in a private little cave and start crafting a statue of their idea of an ideal dwarf. When it's perfect, then they entwine their beards with each other and with the stone dwarf's beard. Overcome with emotion, they weep so that their tears fall into the stone dwarf's eyes. Then the stone dwarf comes to life, and a new dwarf is born.

Thoughtbot360
2007-03-02, 12:16 PM
When two dwarves love each other very, very, much, they get together in a private little cave and start crafting a statue of their idea of an ideal dwarf. When it's perfect, then they entwine their beards with each other and with the stone dwarf's beard. Overcome with emotion, they weep so that their tears fall into the stone dwarf's eyes. Then the stone dwarf comes to life, and a new dwarf is born.

OH GODS! MY VIRGIN EARS!

now I can never love




....it does explain why there are no Half-dwarves, though....

TricksyAndFalse
2007-03-02, 12:21 PM
I like the idea presented by Terry Pratchett's Discworld novels:

Since all dwarves have long beards and wear armor, it's very difficult for anyone, including one another, to tell which are male, and which are female. When two dwarves think they might like each other enough to marry, they secretly confide their genders to each other. Most dwarf relationships end in embarrassment.

Neek
2007-03-02, 12:40 PM
"Hmm... ancient Dwarven runes. Let me read it... 'Rockhunter <3 Goblinsmacker.' Huh. I can guess how that happened."

It all depends on how you build your fantasy world, and how you can dictate the races. If you're worried that mindflayers will take over the world, or worry about dragon kingdoms errupting all over the place, then you have to create reasons why (i.e., mindflayers are allergic to Halfling brains, Dragons and the humans of elder centuries made peace treaties, and whatevernot).

Thoughtbot360
2007-03-02, 03:32 PM
And remember, by the standards of things like dragons, giants, and elves, humans breed (and spread) like cockroaches, and are equally difficult to exterminate.

And I'd like to point out that by the standards of HUMANS, goblins breed (and scatter. Its definetly more of a scattering motion than a spreading on) like cockroaches, and are therefore hard to exterminate (conviently providing a lot of xp to 1st-level adventurers, though!) and look at how well off goblins (http://goblinscomic.com/d/20051107.html) are! (Notice that goblins need a readied action and an elevation bonus to be threatening:smallbiggrin: No offense to Complains of Names, of course.)


Since all dwarves have long beards and wear armor, it's very difficult for anyone, including one another, to tell which are male, and which are female. When two dwarves think they might like each other enough to marry, they secretly confide their genders to each other. Most dwarf relationships end in embarrassment.

Sounds like the dwarves of discworld need to start wearing, at the least, gender-specific colored ornaments in public. I mean, if a system doesn't work, sooner or later someone brings up a new system, even if they have to show the glaring contradictions in the status-quos paradigms first to get people on board with the idea.

TricksyAndFalse
2007-03-02, 11:15 PM
Sounds like the dwarves of discworld need to start wearing, at the least, gender-specific colored ornaments in public.

Terry Pratchett is a comedic fantasy writer... the dwarves of the Discworld do this because it's so absurd it's funny.

Sardia
2007-03-02, 11:56 PM
Well, dwarves like and value craftsmanship...perhaps dwarven women won't take a mate until he's accumulated a body of work which establishes him as a good and skilled crafter. Or he's not considered ready to marry and reproduce until then by the clan/tribe/nation/whatever. Given high standards and long lifetimes, this might take a good long while, which is really going to cut down on the birthrate.

Krellen
2007-03-03, 12:06 AM
On the subject of rebalancing the dwarves, you can go back to old-school D&D, to an extent: give dwarves a -1 caster level (minimum 1) for arcane - or even all - spell casting classes. They're magic resistant, after all, so magic doesn't come as easily to them.

Miles Invictus
2007-03-03, 12:22 AM
That doesn't really balance them out, though, since their abilities and their fluff are geared towards Fighter classes who won't be gaining any spellcasting levels anyway.

The_Snark
2007-03-03, 06:25 PM
And I'd like to point out that by the standards of HUMANS, goblins breed (and scatter. Its definetly more of a scattering motion than a spreading on) like cockroaches, and are therefore hard to exterminate (conviently providing a lot of xp to 1st-level adventurers, though!) and look at how well off goblins (http://goblinscomic.com/d/20051107.html) are! (Notice that goblins need a readied action and an elevation bonus to be threatening:smallbiggrin: No offense to Complains of Names, of course.)

True. But then, goblins are weak and not particularly well organized, so it's easy to see why they haven't conquered the world.



Sounds like the dwarves of discworld need to start wearing, at the least, gender-specific colored ornaments in public. I mean, if a system doesn't work, sooner or later someone brings up a new system, even if they have to show the glaring contradictions in the status-quos paradigms first to get people on board with the idea.

What? Indecency! Anybody could know what gender you are! Anybody at all!

Heh, Discworld.

Solaris
2007-03-03, 07:12 PM
On the subject of rebalancing the dwarves, you can go back to old-school D&D, to an extent: give dwarves a -1 caster level (minimum 1) for arcane - or even all - spell casting classes. They're magic resistant, after all, so magic doesn't come as easily to them.

You're not thinking oldschool enough. Ban the dwarf arcane casters (except for their bards). Ban them all.

Thoughtbot360
2007-03-03, 08:37 PM
You're not thinking oldschool enough. Ban the dwarf arcane casters (except for their bards). Ban them all.

hmm...if you leave their bards alone, than all you really banned are just dwarven wizards.

Someone else: HOW DARE YOU FORGET ABOUT THE SORCERER! ITS ANOTHER CLASS FROM THE WIZARD!

Me: ......like I said, all you really banned was the wizard.

The_Snark
2007-03-03, 08:48 PM
Hey, sorcerer's a class of its own right. But I agree with you, because really... how many dwarf sorcerers do you see?

None. Even less than dwarven bards. None at all.

TheOOB
2007-03-03, 09:29 PM
It doesn't help that dwarves have a penalty to CHA.

I really don't see a problum with dwarves. Humans and Halflings are still great by comparison, and elves and gnomes arn't bad either. The only races that really have a problum are half-orcs and half-elves, but theres a million fixes to them out there.

Thoughtbot360
2007-03-03, 09:48 PM
Hey, sorcerer's a class of its own right. But I agree with you, because really... how many dwarf sorcerers do you see?

None. Even less than dwarven bards. None at all.

I know. I always thought Elan spent too much energy into his charisma setting it at 18 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0028.html), but if a human can go to 18 (on second thought, the OOTS might have found a +2 tome of Charisma and Elan seemed the best choice.), a dwarf should be happy to have 16 (at level one or after using bonus points) for his bard. Bards ARE diplomacy heavy...