Belkar should sue!

[Professor Tanhauser]

Seriously, he should put on a gas mask and biohazard suit, get in touch with the lawyers who've been in the strip on and off again, and sue hinjo and azure city for screwming him over.

First off, he's dragged there illegally, which is kidnapping. He'd held inlegally, he escapes and is then charged with murder. NOW, he's given a sentence with is HARSHER than the normal cntence for the so-called 'crime" he comitted?

FOUL! Get some lawyers in here!

Also he should sue AC for the actions of it's leader, shojo. AC resources were used to wrong him, and not that little prick hinjo acts like he has no respinsibility for it.

BTW, I lost all respect for hinjo and hope belkar sticks it to him somehow. AFAIC hinjo is just a smug little jerk now.

[TARINunit9]

In times of war the courts are shut down!

[Spiky]

Actually, it's the DM's fault.

[Firestar27]

It was not a harsher punishment. I saw someone already point out the 4 years is the MINIMUM. Not the Maximum. And while the murder of the gaurd of his gate may have been justified (to escape from an illegal kidnapping), the murder of the other guards, painting the wall in blood, and attacking Miko was not justified. He could have escaped from Miko (Miko doesn't have very good listen or spot), but instead he remained to attack her. He even gave her a potion so that he could continue the fight.

[hgtff]

NOW, he's given a sentence with is HARSHER than the normal cntence for the so-called 'crime" he comitted?

4 years is the minimum not the maximum or even usual.

[Draedan]

Actually he pled guilty under the false pretenses of a lighter sentence. I am pretty sure that by accepting the plea of guilty then ignoring terms of the plea bargin is illegal. Then again, Hinjo was not the one who offered Belkar the deal, but on the other hand he obviously knew why Belkar was pleading guilty and accepted it anyway. While it may not be unlawful, it certainly was not a good act.

[The Extinguisher]

There wasn't a plea bargain. Just Belkar pleaing guilty. They are allowed to do that on their own.

[Skyserpent]

*sigh* Belkar isn't that smart either, and further contact with those Lawyers would also bring the "I'm Chaotic" incident to light...

[Draedan]

There wasn't a plea bargain. Just Belkar pleaing guilty. They are allowed to do that on their own.

*cough*

Uh...you have to read my post past the first two sentences.

[The Extinguisher]

I did. It makes no sense. There wasn't anything officially set up. To call it a non-good act is just... gah.
There was no legal or moral obligation for Hinjo to give only 4 years.

If someone pled guilty to a crime, thinking that he would only get 5 years, and expressing said thought so the judge can here, the judge doesn't have to give him five years. It would still be lawful and good.

[Draedan]

There was no legal obligation on Hinjo's part, but he accepted the plea of guilty by someone he knew to be misinformed and raised the sentence for the sole purpose of contradicting that misinformation.

While Hinjo was under no legal obligation, there was atleast some moral obligation to tell him that he had been misinformed. What Hinjo did was LN at best.


If someone pled guilty to a crime, thinking that he would only get 5 years, and expressing said thought so the judge can here, the judge doesn't have to give him five years.

He would if it was part of a plea bargin, which is really the only reason one pleads guilty anyway. But that is not really the point...

[qvcatullus]

Nah, what he did was LG and reasonably awesome.
As he said, don't try to jerk the system within listening range of the 'system.' Not Hinjo's fault if the guy's an idiot.

[Draedan]

Well with an air tight argument like that, how could I have ever thought otherwise? :smallannoyed:

[Porthos]

Let's try a Real Life example, shall we:

Judge: Alright, you John Doe are hearby accused of Attempted Murder
Lawyer: Score!! We just pulled a fast one over the judge! Quick, plead guilty so we can skate out of here and score some babes!
Defendant: GUILTY, Your Honor.
Judge(who heard all of this): Plea Accepted.... 15 years in the slammer.

<Shocked looks on the Defense Team>

Judge: Next time you might want to hold off on insulting me until after I prononuce sentence.

<Judge Bangs Gavel>

You see, people do not like it when they've been shown to be made a fool. And they really don't like it when things they believe in (Law and Order in this case) has been trampled and spit on.

Quite frankly, Hinjo was pretty lenient with Belkar and Roy, all things considered. :smallwink:

Moral of the Story? Don't try to subvert justice when the Judge is three feet away from you. :smalltongue:

[The Extinguisher]

Considering letting Belkar and Roy get away with this plan would obviously be less then good, how is stopping them not good?

[Ampersand]

Actually he pled guilty under the false pretenses of a lighter sentence.

But that wasn't Hinjo's fault. Roy just assumed that a guilty plea would get a lighter sentence. Azure City isn't the US...all a plea of guilty there might mean is that they skip the expense of a trial.


I am pretty sure that by accepting the plea of guilty then ignoring terms of the plea bargin is illegal.

When were terms for a plea bargin ever made? The two options before Belkar were to plead guilty or to plead not guilty. He chose to plead guilty on Roy's mistaken assumption that doing so would result in Belkar getting the minimum sentence.

And really, plea bargins generally invovled the defendant giving something to the court, usually ratting out their criminal associates. Belkar did no such thing; the offer for a sentence reduction in light of service against Xykon was a completely seperate matter from the judgement passed on him.

[Tokiko Mima]

Remember folks, Belkar was dragged to Azure City against his will by an agent (Miko) operating with the liege lord (Lord Shojo)s authority. Shojo actively knew this was wrong and that he was technically breaking the law here.

He was placed in solitary confinement. It is the duty of those who are falsely imprisoned to seek escape by any means, and so Belkar slew his lone captor and drew Miko into a chase. Miko was operating under a false confidence in Lord Shojo's authority to hold Belkar captive. He had none, and Belkar was in the right when he resisted Lord Shojo's illegal authority.

Afterwards, Belkar was had a magical symbol (Mark of Justice) painted on him, in order to keep him restrained and in line with Lord Shojo's plans. This despite the fact that Belkar has yet to commit a crime, besides disobeying unlawful exerted authority.

Now Hinjo's is claiming that none of this is his responsibility because Lord Shojo acted outside of the law. But because Shojo used his office illegally is exactly why Belkar has a Mark of Justice, so Hinjo is in the wrong. His office itself is responsibile for what it does, even if Hinjo the person is not.

Hinjo should free Belkar and remove the mark immediately: It's the only way to begin to begin to exert lawful authority on the psychotic halfling. Until that happens any action performed by Belkar at the Lord of Azure City's behest is fully on the head of the holder of the office, not on Belkar. He is still a unlawfully held prisoner under Azure City's control and is not responsible for his own actions.

[Krellen]

I was hoping for a longer sentence. Because, frankly, Belkar's about played out by now.

[Nightmarenny]

It was not a harsher punishment. I saw someone already point out the 4 years is the MINIMUM. Not the Maximum. And while the murder of the gaurd of his gate may have been justified (to escape from an illegal kidnapping), the murder of the other guards, painting the wall in blood, and attacking Miko was not justified. He could have escaped from Miko (Miko doesn't have very good listen or spot), but instead he remained to attack her. He even gave her a potion so that he could continue the fight.
What is with this thought that painting a wall with blood somehow makes murder worse?

This thread is rediculous.

[Porthos]

What is with this thought that painting a wall with blood somehow makes murder worse?

The idea of Murder with Special Circumstances is very ingrained in Western Jurisprudence. :smallsmile:

[Ampersand]

Remember folks, Belkar was dragged to Azure City against his will by an agent (Miko) operating with the liege lord (Lord Shojo)s authority. Shojo actively knew this was wrong and that he was technically breaking the law here.

Shojo knew, and we as the readers now know, but none of the eight people invovled knew at the time.


He was placed in solitary confinement. It is the duty of those who are falsely imprisoned to seek escape by any means, and so Belkar slew his lone captor and drew Miko into a chase.

How did he know he was falsely imprisoned, aside from his own arrogant self assurance? ("Great! I don't feel guilty in the least!" "In this usage, guilty means you committed the crime, not that you feel guilt" -OtOoPC) Did Belkar steal Roy's level in Psion? At the time he was under arrest for weakening the fabric of the universe by destroying Durokan's Gate...which all of the OotS is either guilty of (Elan) or guilty of being accessories to (everyone else). He was guilty of the crimes he was charged with, and had no way to know at the time that the charges were fabricated in order to allow Shojo to talk to Roy.


Until that happens any action performed by Belkar at the Lord of Azure City's behest is fully on the head of the holder of the office, not on Belkar. He is still a unlawfully held prisoner under Azure City's control and is not responsible for his own actions.

When does personal responsibility begin? Belkar chose to murder the guard, chose to smear his blood all over the wall, and chose to harass and torment the lawfully empowered agent that was attempting to subdue him. He was not under any compulsion to perform any of these actions.

Ask yourself this: Would you say that Nale was justified in performing Belkar's actions, had he found himself in that situation? Miko? Celia, Mr. Jones, Redcloak, any other non-protagonist in the comic? Because I think that's what we're seeing here...people are only arguing against this because one of the protagonsts is invovled.


What is with this thought that painting a wall with blood somehow makes murder worse?

Desecration of a corpse.

[Porthos]

He was placed in solitary confinement. It is the duty of those who are falsely imprisoned to seek escape by any means, and so Belkar slew his lone captor and drew Miko into a chase.

Really? So if I'm ever illegally arrested I get to kill any and all police officers that get in my way of escaping? Even though I could probably just get away with knocking them out.

Sweet :belkar:

Errr... You will be my lawyer at my trail when they catch me again, right?

Of course, that presumes that I ever get to trial since cops tend to have a slight problem with "cop killers". But hey, I'll just tell them that they should never have arrested me in the first place. Then everything will be hunky-dory.

Right? :smalleek:

[Draedan]

@Porthos: What that would result in would be a quick disbarring for the lawyer and a mistrial.


When were terms for a plea bargin ever made? The two options before Belkar were to plead guilty or to plead not guilty. He chose to plead guilty on Roy's mistaken assumption that doing so would result in Belkar getting the minimum sentence.

Again, please read the entire post before replying to my argument. I acknowledge that Hinjo never offered a plea bargain pertaining to sentencing.


And really, plea bargins generally invovled the defendant giving something to the court, usually ratting out their criminal associates. Belkar did no such thing; the offer for a sentence reduction in light of service against Xykon was a completely seperate matter from the judgement passed on him.

Actually plea bargains are, quite often, the courts way of avoiding the cost of a trial in exchange for reducing the sentence. Contrary to popular fiction, you don’t always have to “rat someone out”.

@Tokiko Mima: Well put.

@Porthos (again): Your logic only applies to a scenario in which a foreign authority arrests you on false charges and refuses your release. If that were the case I would say you are within your full right to force your way out.

[The Extinguisher]

Tokiko Mima, so if I'm ever arrested when I'm actually innocent I should be able to kill whoever I want to escape?
It beats all the time spent in appeals...

Really, I don't see the logic in people who think that Belkar is completely innocent. Sure, he has the right to seek escape, but was being brought to a trial where he could get out, and used Deadly force where it wasn't nessicary.

The only other option is that he's chaotic and evil and deserves his sentence.

[Ampersand]

Again, please read the entire post before replying to my argument. I acknowledge that Hinjo never offered a plea bargain pertaining to sentencing.

Yeah, I did read it. So what's your problem with what happened? I don't see anything wrong with what Hinjo did. Given that he's already given Belkar the concession of reducing the sentence to manslaughter from murder, desecration of a corpse, torture and harasment of a law offical and resisting arrest, I don't fault him for a second for what he did. If Hinjo's reign starts with a psychopath walking on a technicality, he might as well pull Miko out of the klink and formally apologize to her, since his court would be just as corrupt as she claimed it to be. Even moreso because the person who was attempting to manipulate the system to the most favorable outcome to himself openly discussed his plans to do so in front of Hinjo.

Belkar broke the law, and just because he and Roy assume that the world will conveinently look the other way because they're PCs/protagonsts doesn't mean it has to. How boring would it be if their actions never had consequences?

[Tokiko Mima]

Tokiko Mima, so if I'm ever arrested when I'm actually innocent I should be able to kill whoever I want to escape?

Short answer: Yes, if it's necessary as part of your escape.

You are being kidnapped, any crime you commit is justified as long as it's in line with your escape. Belkar was kidnapped, and is being held against his will by the power of Lord Shojo, quite illegally. Though Lord Shojo ordered Miko to kidnap the OotS, they are not under any obligation to go along with that just because he's ruler of Azure City.

To give an example, if Shojo had instead ordered Belkar's death should he roll over and let himself die just because Lord Shojo ordered Miko to do it? Shojo put Belkar into a situation where murder was the only way out, so Shojo in fact killed that guard.

[Draedan]

Ok, I am trying not to delve into the hypocrisy of a world in which it is OK to kill someone and take their gold due to the fact that they belong to an “evil” race, but it is not OK to kill those who, having no true legal power over you, falsely imprison you. That is just the nature of the beast called D&D.

What I have a problem with is the way in which Belkar’s guilty plea was accepted and summarily distorted. Is Belkar a psychopath? Yes. Has he done a lot of evil things? Yes. Does he deserve to be taken out back and shot? Hell yes. But none of this changes the fact that Belkar plead guilty under false pretense, Hinjo (being LG) knew this and did nothing to amend it and ensure due process.

Actually my argument started because someone took exception to me calling the situation “not a good act”. Which it wasn’t.

[The Extinguisher]

So I should use lethal force even where non-lethal force will suffice.

And Belkar had no intention of escape. If he had, he would of ditched and left town as soon as possible, instead of desecrating a corpse and baiting Miko into finding him for the sole purpose of making her fall. Not really what I would an escape plan.

[Tokiko Mima]

Shojo knew, and we as the readers now know, but none of the eight people invovled knew at the time.

How did he know he was falsely imprisoned, aside from his own arrogant self assurance? ("Great! I don't feel guilty in the least!" "In this usage, guilty means you committed the crime, not that you feel guilt" -OtOoPC) Did Belkar steal Roy's level in Psion? At the time he was under arrest for weakening the fabric of the universe by destroying Durokan's Gate...which all of the OotS is either guilty of (Elan) or guilty of being accessories to (everyone else). He was guilty of the crimes he was charged with, and had no way to know at the time that the charges were fabricated in order to allow Shojo to talk to Roy.

Which Shojo even admits isn't a crime at all, but a convenient excuse to draw the OotS to Azure City. Belkar doesn't have to know what he's being falsely imprisoned for, just that he was subdued by force and hasn't been charged or give the right to representation or even told his rights. In absense of that, how can he be assured of the justice of Azure City's court system?

Now, this is Belkar, and he probably just wanted out to harrass Miko some, but the fact of the matter is, since his original crime wasn't a crime, then holding him for it was the actual crime, which means that Shojo co-opted the Azure City penal system to commit kidnapping for him. Shojo wronged Belkar, not the other way around.

Then Miko rather carelessly left the murderous Belkar with a very gullible guard, and an easy escape, which he took when presented. Anyone else of Belkars abilities would have done the same.


When does personal responsibility begin? Belkar chose to murder the guard, chose to smear his blood all over the wall, and chose to harass and torment the lawfully empowered agent that was attempting to subdue him. He was not under any compulsion to perform any of these actions.

Miko's status as a lawful agent of Lord Shojo matters not when Shojo is manipulating her into commiting crimes in his name. She doesn't realize it of course, but there is no lawful authority coming from Shojo since Shojo is himself breaking the law.

Belkar murdered the guard in the course of an escape, an escape which he had every right to attempt, and the guard had no right to prevent. Personal responsibility in this case flows to Shojo, who ordered Belkar be placed in that pit via his agent, Miko.

The most you can tag Belkar with is corpse desecration, for making the sign in blood against the wall.


Ask yourself this: Would you say that Nale was justified in performing Belkar's actions, had he found himself in that situation? Miko? Celia, Mr. Jones, Redcloak, any other non-protagonist in the comic? Because I think that's what we're seeing here...people are only arguing against this because one of the protagonsts is invovled.

Anyone imprisoned who is innocent of their crimes has a right to escape, perhaps even a duty. If a law is drafted or an edict passed that violates the liberty or rights of the citizens, is is our duty to disobey it; non-violently if possible, but violently if given no choice in the matter.

Nale is likewise unlawfully held by Azure City. What they should be doing is transferring him to Cliffport, or if he's too dangerous to allow into their jail, trying him in Azure City for his crimes in Cliffport. As it stands, I think morally Nale would be in the right to attempt escape, at least until they involve Cliffport.

[TheAnimal]

In times of war the courts are shut down!
QFT. This is what it all boils down to: In the absence of a magistrate, Hinjo is the law. Belkar was sentenced in court-martial.
Of course, the kidnapping is another issue, but that could present some serious complications, too: What court would have jurisdiction in the matter and the willingness to cross the ruler of Azure City?

[Tokiko Mima]

So I should use lethal force even where non-lethal force will suffice.

No! Where did I say that? You should use the least amount of force possible, but if murder becomes necessary, well, your life is on the line. It could be considered self-defense. Belkar killed exactly one person, his guard, whose death was necessary to facilitate his escape. He actually avoided killing Miko at one point.


And Belkar had no intention of escape. If he had, he would of ditched and left town as soon as possible, instead of desecrating a corpse and baiting Miko into finding him for the sole purpose of making her fall. Not really what I would an escape plan.

Belkar HAD escaped. Once his guard was dead and he was out of the pit, he considered himself free (It's like my birthday came early!'), and proceeded to do what he does best: harrass Miko.

[The Extinguisher]

How was his death necessary? Belkar has easily knocked him out. He stabbed him after the fact. Infact, I'm pretty sure Belkar only killed him because he could. You can't say Belkar is innocent. Next you'll be telling me the action wasn't evil.

They were told what they were charged of and were given the action to be brought in peacefully. They didn't comply.
Sometimes a little trickery is needed when it prevents the destruction of the whole freaking world.

[Tokiko Mima]

Wait, you mean Belkar, the psychopathic murderer, should have not opted to go for the kill when it was presented to him? Belkar was obviously going to escape, and he's not the type of person to just knock people out. Ideally, you should shed as little blood as possible reclaiming your rights, but that's simply not Belkars nature, which should have been well known to his captors. For him, non-violence is not an option.

I'm sure it was evil. Belkar is evil himself, so that's not surprising. It doesn't make him culpable for the crime.

The guard was placed by Miko acting as an agent of Lord Shojo. From that point on, everything else was inevitable. Since Shojo is responsible for placing Belkar there, Shojo is responsible for the breakout attempt and any collateral damage, including the murder. He could not expect Belkar to understand his plan, as he hadn't shared it, nor could he expect Belkars adherence to laws to hold him.

You could blame Miko too I guess, since she probably made the decision on where to hold Belkar. But she was acting under orders from Shojo she thought were legitimate.

[vbushido]

I think it patently absurd to uphold the 'duty to escape.' Name one imprisoned person that believes they deserve to be there? Sociopaths, by your argument, have a duty to escape because they have an inability to associate consequences to their actions. (They do not associate being in prison as a punishment for crimes they commit.) And if doing evil acts does not make you cupable for your actions, why did we jail Jeffrey Dahmer?

-----
Do NOT start with me. You will NOT win. :vaarsuvius:

[slayerx]

Well things to keep in mind...

1) the guard Belkar killed posed little resitance to Belkar, he didn't even have his weapon drawn
2) Belkar could have quite easily used less force to knock out the guard, he used excessive force
3) By baiting Miko to come after him, he actually hurt any chance of escape... he only escaped from the prision cell, he was still within his captors castle and thus not really escaped from his oppressors since guards were going to go after him to drag him back
4) based on these points and character witnesses, one could easily conclude that Belkar's actions were for his own personal pleasure and not to right the wrong commited upon him
5) Belkar's crime under normal circumstances would have been murder... however because of the wrong committed on him Hinjo lowered the drime to manslaughter... so he got a reduced sentence, which is pretty good considering the previous points
6)Most importantly... Belkar plead GUILTY to the crime he was accused of and excepted to hear a final sentence. Had Belkar taken the case to trial, the judge MIGHT have been able to let him off if he had a good enough defence, HOWEVER, by pleading guilty Belkar essentially gave up any chance he had to be found not guilty of his crimes... in other words it TOO LATE

And the misinformation thing of Hinjo's would not hold up... When it comes down to it, Roy was the one giving the information to Belkar, not Hinjo. And Belkar was told directly that 4 years was a MINIMUM sentence... it's really his own damn fault that he IGNORED that fact and went along with Roy's assumptions

[Ashbless]

Well things to keep in mind...

1) the guard Belkar killed posed little resitance to Belkar, he didn't even have his weapon drawn
2) Belkar could have quite easily used less force to knock out the guard, he used excessive force
3) By baiting Miko to come after him, he actually hurt any chance of escape... he only escaped from the prision cell, he was still within his captors castle and thus not really escaped from his oppressors since guards were going to go after him to drag him back
4) based on these points and character witnesses, one could easily conclude that Belkar's actions were for his own personal pleasure and not to right the wrong commited upon him
5) Belkar's crime under normal circumstances would have been murder... however because of the wrong committed on him Hinjo lowered the drime to manslaughter... so he got a reduced sentence, which is pretty good considering the previous points
6)Most importantly... Belkar plead GUILTY to the crime he was accused of and excepted to hear a final sentence. Had Belkar taken the case to trial, the judge MIGHT have been able to let him off if he had a good enough defence, HOWEVER, by pleading guilty Belkar essentially gave up any chance he had to be found not guilty of his crimes... in other words it TOO LATE

And the misinformation thing of Hinjo's would not hold up... When it comes down to it, Roy was the one giving the information to Belkar, not Hinjo. And Belkar was told directly that 4 years was a MINIMUM sentence... it's really his own damn fault that he IGNORED that fact and went along with Roy's assumptions

I pretty much agree with this. Whilst Belkar had every right to try and escape, or take advantage of lapses by the guards, murder and muutilation of a corpse are pretty strong breaches of the law in just about any society.

Regardless of what had gone on before, the City was perfectly within its rights to charge Belkar with those crimes.

[AK-00]

I call procedural mistrial. There's been no proper investigation and no proper trial. Furthermore, any special powers granted to Hinjo during time of war apply only to military personnel under his command and, possibly, citizens of Azure City, of which Belkar is neither.

Ideally, the halfling should walk, albeit with some difficulty on account of being weighed down by all the compensation he's owed.

[BelkarFan]

I just had to register because I can't believe that no one has commented on the most important point in this thread!

Despite what Hinjo said, Belkar and Roy were not trying to beat the system.

The system says that four years is minimum appropriate sentence for the crime Belkar was accused of and yet he is only going to serve one year. That's a lot less. It's not as much less as Roy expected, but it's still a lot.

Is this small punishment for Belkar some sort of scheme that Roy cooked up to cheat Hinjo out of justice? Hinjo seems to think so, but it was Hinjo who agreed to accuse Belkar of a small crime and since Hinjo is lawful good I think it is safe to assume that he had lawful good reasons for doing so. It was also Hinjo's idea to take 5 years off the sentences of the prisoners who aided in the defense of Azure City.

All Roy did was realize that because of Belkar's justly reduced charges and the fact that his sentence was going to be justly reduced by 5 years, Belkar would probably be justly released without punishment and therefore there was no point in pleading 'not guilty'.

Belkar killed a guard and caused some mayhem. Now he is defending the city (and the world) and therefore saving vast numbers of lives. I think the two tend to balance out, and so does Hinjo since he is offering to reduce the sentences of those who help with the battle.

The point is that in Roy's plan, Belkar is not getting off free because of some sort of weaselly cheating or a technicality; Belkar is getting off because he is risking his life to save everyone and everything.

If anyone is cheating, Hinjo is cheating Belkar out of his just reward for defending the city.

I laughed, but it would have been funnier if Roy had actually done some weaseling to deserve Hinjo's comment. Even a little bit of weaseling would have helped.

[DeathQuaker]

First off, he's dragged there illegally, which is kidnapping.

The word is "arrested." For being part of the group which hit the self-destruct rune on Dorukan's gate. Which the group actually did do (Elan did it, the rest are accessories).

In the world I live in, to be arrested for a crime you actually commited is most certainly legal. In the world they live in, probably even more so. I doubt Miko would have been able to arrest him if she didn't have the authority to do so, given as by-the-book as she likes to be.



He'd held inlegally,

He's detained legally, as he was arrested legally.



he escapes

In the world I come from, escaping from lawful detainment is illegal. And in fact, even if you are a suspect of a crime but innocent, escaping is still illegal because it is your moral and ethical responsibility to remain with the authorities to prove your innocence--and therefore help them narrow down who is the true suspect.

In the world they live in, it appears this is also more or less true.



and is then charged with murder.

Because he actually killed someone--the guard at the prison that was lawfully holding him. He freely admitted it. He practically signed the deed. Not to mention, all the guard was doing was giving him food, which indicates the prison respects their prisoners' basic rights to food and shelter, which is the sign of a better legal system than what some fantasy legal systems could be.



NOW, he's given a sentence with is HARSHER than the normal cntence for the so-called 'crime" he comitted?

First of all, Roy, the person who told him what the punishment was neither a lawyer nor even a representative of Azure City Law. Anything he says about Azure City Law is therefore not binding.

Second of all, Roy mentioned that 4 years was the "minimum."

Third of all, again, Roy was not Belkar's legal counsel. Anything he contributes to the situation is merely conversational--and therefore would not constitute any binding terms on the sentence.

Fourth of all, 6 years over 4 is not that much more harsh, especially when all it will ultimately boil down to serving one year of time for unlawfully, brutally murdering a member of law enforcement in an attempt to illegally escape incarceration.

In the world I live in, that is a damn light sentence.

Then again, Azure City is not the world I live in--so perhaps you are right--if you have greater knowledge of the laws of Azure City, perhaps you have a point. But honestly, only then.

[SteveMB]

And really, plea bargins generally invovled the defendant giving something to the court, usually ratting out their criminal associates. Belkar did no such thing; the offer for a sentence reduction in light of service against Xykon was a completely seperate matter from the judgement passed on him.
Er, plea bargains by definition give something to the court -- the court gets to fast-forward directly to the sentencing phase. Belkar most certainly did give Hinjo that.

That said, Roy was an idiot, and certainly did make an ASS of "U" (Belkar) and "ME".

[I don't know]

I'd say it's a mistake to call it a plea bargain, seeing that there was no bargaining - it was more just a strategical plea, Belkar had no guarantee from any public official that it'd work.


What is with this thought that painting a wall with blood somehow makes murder worse? - You could argue that the guard, being dead, wouldn't care but, this being a world where ghosts are most certainly a real thing, I wouldn't bet on it :p

Either way, if the Azure city court system is anything like western ones (and it seems like it) punishment is about "treating" the "illness" of the criminal - not revenge for the victim, justice or whatever. And the wall painting certainly counts as evidence/symptom that Belkar's "illness" is pretty damn severe.

[SteveMB]

I think it patently absurd to uphold the 'duty to escape.'
It's not even applicable to this situation -- I've heard of the notion that POWs (in the absence of a mutually recognized parole) have a "duty to escape" if an opportunity presents itself, but I've never heard of it in the context of a prisoner (correctly or otherwise) held by the civil penal system.

[Arin]

My apologies to the moderators if this borders on insertion of real world politics, but my intent is just to state fact, I'm not going to even voice any opinion on the matter.

I just feel the need to point out, to those of you who have complained about Hinjo accepting a guilty plea from Belkar and then deliberately working out the math so that he will still get prison time, that in the US legal system, a judge is /never/ obligated to give a sentence offered by the state, if the prosecution and defense work out any kind of a deal, that deal goes to the judge as a /recommendation/ - the judge still has all the power to sentence the offender differently. They usually don't, of course, because if they exercised that power regularly than people would stop taking plea deals and the court system would be bogged down by all the cases going to trial, but the point is that yes, even in RL, what Hinjo did is done by courts all the time.

[Swordguy]

In this thread, I've seen a lot of mention of rights. Belkar's rights. The guard's rights. Hinjo's rights. Everyone mentioning such is making a fundamental mistake in their viewpoint.

D&D in general is a quasi-feudalistic setting. In a feudal setting, if you aren't a noble, you don't have any rights. It's called "Noble Justice"; the only rights you have are those the noble chooses to extend to you. If I'm a noble, and I want to kill my peasant, I can, no legal questions asked (as long as killing that peasant doesn't screw up my responsibilities to my own liege lord).

This extends to Azure City's court system, from what we've seen thus far. The only judge and jury we've seen has in fact been Shojo, a noble of the city. This is almost certainly the root of Miko's assertation that since Shojo is the ruler of the city (thus, the nobles are his vassals and bound to obey him), the courts are inherently corrupt.

Furthermore, "inherent rights" are only supposed to apply to citizens of a city, state, or nation (idiotic US policies notwithstanding). You aren't a citizen (and don't have diplomatic immunity), guess what? No rights for you, beyond what your host country chooses to extend to you.


Stop filtering the situation through a modern legalistic perspective. It's pointless and almost certainly wrong. We're not dealing with a modern legal system here.

[BardicLasher]

...All things aside, I'd like to point out that Belkar SURELY deserves to be locked up for the rest of his natural life. Sure, THIS may not be the crime for it, but considering Origin, as much as I love Belkar, I hold no hate for someone who wants to put him in the jail. Locking up Belkar is an inherently GOOD act.

[Iranon]

Let's assume for a moment the situation was reversed...

Flash forward to the new and vibrant nation Belkarria. Sure, the subjects only tolerate their Lord's eccentricities because he's damn good at keeping the goblinoids in check but for the time being they regard him as their rightful ruler.

Belkar I* sends a loyal minion to kidnap Hinjo, painting him as a vile criminal (perhaps an impostor) because he really needs to have a word with him and doesn't like to say why. Said minion drags him in to Belkar's hamlet in chains, coming close to executing him on the way because he finds his personal philosophies repulsive.

Next, Hinjo is dumped into an oubliette, reasonably expecting to be either left to rot or to be convicted in a farce of a trial.

This is where things become different because Hinjo would have tried to avoid killing in his escape. But it's not unnatural to assume that he'd have incapacitated the guard in a non-lethal manner. How would he react to being charged with assault for his prison escape? And assault on a memeber of the lord's men could conceivably carry some rather unpleasant penalties (especially if it's Belkar's little empire and he gets to watch them!).

The dilemma: Belkar would, in fact, be the rightful ruler of the land, and Hinjo would have committed a crime. Would he really be accountable to him?


* Yes, I'm wilfully ignoring the change of rulers; I assume responsibilities of the crown carry over to the next in line anyway. And personal things stay personal as it's all in the family.

[BardicLasher]

Hinjo WOULD be accountable for the crime in your example. He'd be committing a Chaotic (but not evil) act, which means it's definitely an unlawful one.

Remember, law vs chaos ignores good and evil.

[Tokiko Mima]

If someone grabs you up off the street, says you're under arrest on order of the King of Supulamalia (for example) for unnamed crimes, what duty do you have to patiently wait for your kidnapper to drag you back to his nutty country, try you in a system you don't understand, and probably convict and sentence you to death? Especially when you didn't do anything wrong?

Azure City is nice and all, but I don't feel an obligation to die for it's people. I don't live there, and I don't care or have to care about what it's King things of how I killed a lich. Any opportunity to escape or any avenue that opens up, I'll be taking. Belkar kills people. Anyone could tell you that, so putting him in an isolation cell without properly inspecting him throughly and leaving an especially gullible guard as a lone watchman was a bad idea.

Maybe Belkar *could* have not killed the guard and escaped, but how likely is that based on what you know of Belkar? Sure, murder was committed, but I liken it to a tiger breaking out of it's cage and killing it's handler. He was in the process of escaping unlawful captivity that could have led to his death. Belkar doesn't have a passifistic setting in his brain, and Miko and Shojo should have known and make allowances for that, if they intended to hold him hostage.

The OotS did nothing wrong. No one is clear on exactly why the gate HAD a self destruct feature installed, not even Lord Shojo. In any case the Gate itself didn't belong to Azure City; they merely had an interest in finding out what happened, and acquiring agents to help them protect the other Gates. There was no crime, until Miko was dispatched to kidnap the OotS.

[BardicLasher]

Shojo commands Paladins, who get their powers from the gods. Shojo was acting on behalf of the GODS, not Azure City. What he did was CERTAINLY within the GODS' jurisdiction.

[Tokiko Mima]

Then why were his last words about how everything he did, he did for his people? Why didn't he say he did it for the Twelve Gods?

[Iranon]

Being a god doens't count for that much in a polytheistic setting... especially not if there are several distinct pantheons, with nobody doubting the others' existence.

Any group paying lip service or more to a religion could do whatever they wanted with that argument (wait, they usually do).

[Greyson]

You should use the least amount of force possible, but if murder becomes necessary, well, your life is on the line. It could be considered self-defense. Belkar killed exactly one person, his guard, whose death was necessary to facilitate his escape.

Wait, you mean Belkar, the psychopathic murderer, should have not opted to go for the kill when it was presented to him? Belkar was obviously going to escape, and he's not the type of person to just knock people out. Ideally, you should shed as little blood as possible reclaiming your rights, but that's simply not Belkars nature, which should have been well known to his captors. For him, non-violence is not an option.So...you recant your position in the first quotation and defend Belkar's murder of the guard because it's in-character? Thankfully, acting as comes naturally to one's character generally doesn't affect your sentence in any court of law....

[The Extinguisher]

Then why were his last words about how everything he did, he did for his people? Why didn't he say he did it for the Twelve Gods?

Because he did it to save his people.

[Tokiko Mima]

So...you recant your position in the first quotation and defend Belkar's murder of the guard because it's in-character? Thankfully, acting as comes naturally to one's character generally doesn't affect your sentence in any court of law....

I defend it on the grounds that it's unreasonable to expect Belkar not to kill people, based on his known characteristics and the situation. He was put into a situation where he had to take the guard out of commision.

You shouldn't kill people during an escape unless it's necessary, but I'm not going to condemn Belkar's decision to use lethal force. Hasn't he proved to be terrible at dealing non-lethal damage? He did the smart thing, for Belkar. Hinjo, Miko, Nale, etc might do it differently and better, but that doesn't mean Belkar was wrong for killing his jailor.

[MReav]

Didn't Belkar, by his own admission, say he was going down for Murder 2 (and was pissed that he didn't hey it), which would indicate that he knew what he was doing was wrong, and therefore was not done in the context that his defenders are giving him?

Furthermore, after killing the guard, if he would have run out of town, the excuse that he was only trying to escape is a valid one. The fact that he took time out of his busy schedule to write and draw on the wall (some of which is written at more than twice his height), then proceed to recover his weapons, hide in a storage area, and set up alcohol based traps, would seem to indicate that he was not trying to escape in any way, shape or form.

[TigerHunter]

Numbered points are arguments I will attempt to refute.

1. Belkar was falsely imprisoned.
Not so. The OotS WERE guilty of 'weakening the fabric of the universe'. Find the Haley Compilation Thread and read the translations for #284 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0284.html). The fact that Shojo never intended to punish them for it is irrelevant. He could have, both Lawfully and Goodly, have had the OotS imprisoned for life or whatever the punishment for such a momentous crime is.
And regardless, you can be arrested for crimes you did not commit--the whole point of a trial is to ensure that you really did commit the crimes you are accused of. Belkar WAS guilty of the crime he was accused of, and got off with the freedom to do anything except commit murder rather than a jail sentence. Seems pretty lenient to me.
2. Belkar was completely justified in killing the guard.
See above. You're not allowed to kill a police officer at a jail, even if you're wrongly accused, which Belkar was not. Even if wrongly convicted, it's not allowed. The only illegal act Shojo committed concerning the OotS was tampering with the verdict of their trial--something they should be damned grateful he did.
3. Hinjo wrongly increased the sentence.
4 years is the MINIMUM. Do I need to define that for you, or can you look it up for yourselves? And regardless, I don't think Hinjo would have objected if Belkar had changed his plea back to Not Guilty. Also, as someone stated above me, the judge is not at all required to honor agreements between defense and prosecution--though he is required to allow the defendant to change his plea in that case if he so desires.
And regardless, Belkar IS STILL GETTING OFF WITH ONLY A YEAR IN PRISON RATHER THAN FOUR. Assuming he would have gotten only 4 in the first place.

Hinjo likey reduced the charges to Manslaugher in the first place because of Roy's contributions to the city, meaning Belkar might have been going down for 10 years+.

[Karkadinn]

You people astonish me. BELKAR didn't know he was falsely imprisoned at the time he killed the bloody guard! It shouldn't even enter into the equation! The very fact that Hinjo allowed it to in the first place only shows that he's being exceptionally merciful.
I can't believe there are people here who actually believe that being falsely imprisoned for any period of time is sufficient justification to do whatever it takes to escape. When I was walking home late one night I got picked up by the police for looking 'suspicious.' I didn't press the issue, but I let him 'help' me get home and upon arrival had things sorted out to his satisfaction. But apparently what I should have done was killed him and walked home, because I'd done nothing wrong and he had no right to interfere with my life.

[Justinian]

This entire thread is absurdist.

Belkar deserves a death sentence but is instead getting one year. If there be injustice here, it is highly in Belkar's favor.

[Ampersand]

I defend it on the grounds that it's unreasonable to expect Belkar not to kill people, based on his known characteristics and the situation. He was put into a situation where he had to take the guard out of commision.

From an in-character stand point, Belkar acted entirely appriopiately. From a legal standpoint, he deserves to have Evan's Spiked Legal Tentacles cast on him.

Actually, a quote from On the Origin of PCs is relevant here...not the least because it's from Belkar's story.

Guard: You know, I don't have to debate this with you. It's the law. You'll be held until you are found guilty or set free.
:belkar: Sweet! I'm not even the slightest bit guilty!
Guard: In this usage, "guilty" means that you committed the crime, not that you feel guilt.
:belkar: Oh. Never mind, then.

[Tokiko Mima]

I can't believe there are people here who actually believe that being falsely imprisoned for any period of time is sufficient justification to do whatever it takes to escape.

Great! Where do you live? I want to go there, claim that I am under orders by the King of Kookamunga to arrest you under suspicion of crimes against all existance. Then we'll drive all the way to Montana, where I'll lock you up in cellar for a few days, then take you out and let my handpuppet put on a mock trial involving crayon drawings. You'll be found guilty of course, and I'll have to execute you. So sorry! Hold still while I push the needle in, k?

Shojo has no jurisdiction over Belkar, and had to commit a crime to get him into Azure City. Please explain how it's wrong to try to escape someone that's kidnapping you? Just because they use a government body to do it doesn't change the scenario, it actually makes it worse. Shojo made Belkar's jailor complicit with, and therefore party to kidnapping.

[MReav]

Shojo has no jurisdiction over Belkar, and had to commit a crime to get him into Azure City. Please explain how it's wrong to try to escape someone that's kidnapping you? Just because they use a government body to do it doesn't change the scenario, it actually makes it worse. Shojo made Belkar's jailor complicit with, and therefore party to kidnapping.

Because Belkar didn't try to escape (or at least, after he got out of his cell). He stayed, specifically to piss off someone, wasting valuable escape time to write messages at more than twice his height (and write fairly legibly to boot, which when jumping up and down, would be quite difficult), then later built a saki-based trap.

And furthermore, Belkar is not a lawyer, he didn't know his rights, and thought what he was doing actually quite wrong from a legal standpoint (hence the quote "I thought I would be going down for at least murder 2."
not to mention his disappointment that it would damage his street cred, indicating Belkar doesn't do stuff unless it's particularly vile).

[Swordguy]

Shojo has no jurisdiction over Belkar, and had to commit a crime to get him into Azure City. Please explain how it's wrong to try to escape someone that's kidnapping you? Just because they use a government body to do it doesn't change the scenario, it actually makes it worse. Shojo made Belkar's jailor complicit with, and therefore party to kidnapping.

In this case, modern legal codes in the US tend to prohibit violence against civilian jailers for any reason, including self-defense. In the military, you do have a duty to attempt to escape, but it's because you'd be jailed by a country whom you are at war with in the first place, so killing the enemy is OK.

However, this is under a modern legal system. Stop trying to justify stuff based on modern legal codes. It's wrong.

[The Extinguisher]

Where do you live, that lethal force is allowed because it is "in-character" of the defendant?

[AK-00]

However, this is under a modern legal system. Stop trying to justify stuff based on modern legal codes. It's wrong.


It's a fantasy setting, not a historical one. Anything goes.

[Tokiko Mima]

Numbered points are arguments I will attempt to refute.

1. Belkar was falsely imprisoned.
Not so. The OotS WERE guilty of 'weakening the fabric of the universe'. Find the Haley Compilation Thread and read the translations for #284 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0284.html). The fact that Shojo never intended to punish them for it is irrelevant. He could have, both Lawfully and Goodly, have had the OotS imprisoned for life or whatever the punishment for such a momentous crime is.

Because I'm sure that somewhere in the law books of Azure City, they made up a law that says that if someone blows up a Gate, even if it's not in our country at all, that's a crime. I'm also sure Azure City has a law that lets them enter other territories, kidnap then try people that break crazy laws that they've never had a chance to enforce before even once.


And regardless, you can be arrested for crimes you did not commit--the whole point of a trial is to ensure that you really did commit the crimes you are accused of. Belkar WAS guilty of the crime he was accused of, and got off with the freedom to do anything except commit murder rather than a jail sentence. Seems pretty lenient to me.

Yeah, serving time in a country were they kidnap people on bogus charges, scribe magically restricting runes on your head without your consent, then abitrarily add years to your sentence because the judge is upset at your counsel sounds like a real gas. Especially when you wouldn't even be in Azure City and couldn't have committed the crime if you hadn't been brought there by expressly illegal force and imprisoned.


2. Belkar was completely justified in killing the guard.
See above. You're not allowed to kill a police officer at a jail, even if you're wrongly accused, which Belkar was not. Even if wrongly convicted, it's not allowed. The only illegal act Shojo committed concerning the OotS was tampering with the verdict of their trial--something they should be damned grateful he did.

The guard wasn't a police officer. Regardless, the guard was imprisoning Belkar for a non-existant/bogus crime. He was acting as an agent of Shojo, the man who knew that this was illegal. "Just doing your job" is not a defense, it's an invitation for totalitarianism. No one was watching Shojo, was the problem here.

So, is it your conjecture than an innocent man should cooperate fully with his captors, regardless of how little justice is being served, and how terrible the sentence is? At any point, does he have a right to fight back at all, or should we trust Lord Shojo to instinctively know when to rig trials to find people innocent and guilty?

Shojo did more than tamper with the verdict, he ordered the OotS arrest in the first place. The whole trial was a sham, start to finish. He never did them any favors; he needed them alive as part of his plans. If his plans had been better served by killing them, you know it wouldn't have turned out the way it did.


3. Hinjo wrongly increased the sentence.
4 years is the MINIMUM. Do I need to define that for you, or can you look it up for yourselves? And regardless, I don't think Hinjo would have objected if Belkar had changed his plea back to Not Guilty. Also, as someone stated above me, the judge is not at all required to honor agreements between defense and prosecution--though he is required to allow the defendant to change his plea in that case if he so desires.
And regardless, Belkar IS STILL GETTING OFF WITH ONLY A YEAR IN PRISON RATHER THAN FOUR. Assuming he would have gotten only 4 in the first place.

Hinjo likey reduced the charges to Manslaugher in the first place because of Roy's contributions to the city, meaning Belkar might have been going down for 10 years+.

I addressed this exact conjecture further up on the thread. I admit that it's possible Hinjo originally intended to sentence Belkar to 6 years, and in that case, he did nothing wrong. What he did wrong was imply that the sentence was chosen so Roy's plan to 'beat the system' didn't work. That's not fair to Belkar, who did nothing to warrant the possible extra two years. That's irresponsible of Hinjo as a judge and reeks of the 'whatever-it-takes-to-serve-the-city' style Hinjo *just* criticized Shojo for having.

[The Extinguisher]

Except that he wasn't guaranteed 4 years in the first place.

[Swordguy]

It's a fantasy setting, not a historical one. Anything goes.

D&D is inherently based upon medieval European life, with a layer of high fantasy overtop. That means, that, until otherwise directly contradicted, the basic premise and rules of medieval European life still apply. For example, there was no way to throw a ball of fire in the 11th century Germany, but as you can directly do this in the game mechanics, that "rule of reality" is no longer in play. D&D takes the medieval European setting as a given, and then modifies it, but that doesn't mean rules of the setting are in any way invalid.

BTW, I'm aware Azure City is based on Japanese Medieval life. That makes it even better, as there is no question that anyone who wasn't a member of the samurai caste could be legally treated as disposable property.

One thing, however, is for sure...It's not a modern American setting, therefore modern American rules don't apply by default.

[Tokiko Mima]

In this case, modern legal codes in the US tend to prohibit violence against civilian jailers for any reason, including self-defense. In the military, you do have a duty to attempt to escape, but it's because you'd be jailed by a country whom you are at war with in the first place, so killing the enemy is OK.

Wait, so if I was a jailer, I could beat prisoners nearly to death, but if they hurt me back in order to stop me, then the prisoner get prosecuted? Why does that sound like a bad idea? But then, maybe that's why we've been having so many prison scandals lately. :(


However, this is under a modern legal system. Stop trying to justify stuff based on modern legal codes. It's wrong.

Azure City has a very modern legal system with lawyers, trials, cross-examinations, etc. Medieval Justice is not a better fit, it's a much worse fit. In a medieval system, the OotS would have been killed or spared instantly, under the whim of Lord Shojo... instead there was a rather large production that had to be rigged to get the needed result. How do you suggest we treat the Azure City legal system?

[Tokiko Mima]

Except that he wasn't guaranteed 4 years in the first place.

I never said he was. I don't take issue with Hinjo's sentencing, per say. I take issue with Hinjo revealing in his next line that 6 years was chosen to upset Roy's plan, not because it was what Belkar deserved. Do you see the difference?

[AK-00]

One thing, however, is for sure...It's not a modern American setting, therefore modern American rules don't apply by default.


They had actual lawyers in the actual frikkin' trial!
In suits!
What do you want?

[MReav]

I think the reason Belkar doesn't sue is because of this:

"Lord Hinjo, I am representing my client, Belkar, who is suing you for unlawful imprisonment, expecting monetary compensation well in excess of 500'000 GP*." turns around, "By the way, Belkar, I'm presenting a class action lawsuit on behalf of the people and families of all the people you've assaulted, injured, attacked, murdered, humiliated, sold,..." continues on for a bit, "...amounting to a total wealth by level value of your average 60th level adventurer".

*(before someone tells me that's not much, I will point out that gold goes for over 600$ an ounce, and 50 GP is a pound of gold. 500'000 GP would represent 10'000 pounds of gold. 10'000*16*600 is 96'000'000$ That's obscene, and yes, I am a total nerd).

[slayerx]

Despite what Hinjo said, Belkar and Roy were not trying to beat the system.

err... yes they were...
From what it seems, convincing Hinjo to reduce the crime Belkar was accused of to Manslaughter and offering high level prisoners 5 years off their sentence to fight for Azure City seems like it was all Roy's idea... and Roy clearly states that he had figured out BEFOREHAND, that the combination of these two acts would get Belkar off scott free, if he chose to plea guilty and help save Azure City

Furtharmore, it seems that when Roy gave Hinjo the idea to use the prisoners to fight and lower Belkar's setence, Hinjo may not have realized that Roy was aiming to set Belkar free... those two suggestions may have been made during two different conversations and thus Hinjo didn't make the connection... however, Hinjo made the connections when Roy said the whole plan in front of him


I addressed this exact conjecture further up on the thread. I admit that it's possible Hinjo originally intended to sentence Belkar to 6 years, and in that case, he did nothing wrong. What he did wrong was imply that the sentence was chosen so Roy's plan to 'beat the system' didn't work. That's not fair to Belkar, who did nothing to warrant the possible extra two years. That's irresponsible of Hinjo as a judge and reeks of the 'whatever-it-takes-to-serve-the-city' style Hinjo *just* criticized Shojo for having.
Belkar may have done something to warrent the extra 2 years, such as trying to beat the system... by trying to beat the system, Belkar shows himself as being Evil and manipulative and as someone who did not want to actually pay for his crimes. Hinjo can not just let such evil, as wanting to get off scott free for your crimes, go without punishment... so, Belkar was given a sentence in a fashion that would make certain that he would pay for his crimes... had Belkar not knowingly tried to beat the system, Hinjo might have saw no reason to add to his sentence since Belkar would not have proven that he was trying to get off scott free and completly avoid punishment

Not to mention i would guess that the mutilation of the guard's corpse itself might have added 1 more year to his sentence... such desicration is downright evil, proves him to be even more evil then a regular case of voluntary manslaughter and thus warrents a longer sentence then the bare minimum

[Swordguy]

Wait, so if I was a jailer, I could beat prisoners nearly to death, but if they hurt me back in order to stop me, then prisoner get prosecuted? Why does that sound like a bad idea?
[quote]

Yes, you can. It happens often. Would you like supporting evidence?


[QUOTE=Tokiko Mima;2124800]
Azure City has a very modern legal system with lawyers, trials, cross-examinations, etc. Medieval Justice is not a better fit, it's a much worse fit. In a medieval system, the OotS would have been killed or spared instantly, under the whim of Lord Shojo... instead there was a rather large production that had to be rigged to get the needed result. How do you suggest we treat the Azure City legal system?

Erm...except that they were spared on the whim of Lord Shojo. Furthermore, we haven't seen the 'actual' court system in play (which I highly doubt involves summoning outsiders to judge every trial). I'm not saying that the medieval legal system is a perfect fit, only that it's a better fit than the modern legal system (in that it's closer to what we've seen so far). Their legal codes can be COMPLETELY different from ours, and we've no way to know until specifically shown in the comic. People on this thread are taking American judicial law and American ethics and imposing them on the characters in OotS. That's a logical fallacy.

Just let the comic play out and stop the arguments based on insufficient knowledge. What's the point?

[ziggurat]

The only other option is that he's chaotic and evil and deserves his sentence.

Belkar is chaotic neutral.

[Eldae]

I don't think anybody's mentioned this yet, but just disregard this if they have. Belkar and the OotS were not dragged to Azure City for breaking any Azure City laws. They were brought back by order of the Sapphire Guard. To quote from OotS 267 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0267.html):

"Mr. Scruffy reminds me that the Sapphire Guard has been given their holy powers by the Twelve Gods of the South to protect the gates...
And since the gods are not limited in their jurisdiction, neither are we.
Further, Mr. Scruffy goes on to point out that while Lord Shojo -- that's me -- is ALSO the secular ruler of Azure City, his post as Sapphire Commander is separate and unrelated.
He has had you captured strictly on the authority of the gods, not on behalf of his beloved city."

The Azure City laws don't enter into it.

[tanonev]

The OotS were not even dragged to Azure City to begin with. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0206.html) The dragging only started after an OotS-provoked violent confrontation with Miko. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0251.html)

If Belkar had a "duty" to escape, he should have done so at this point. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0230.html) However, we can't ignore the fact that Belkar has no desire to escape. On his agenda: a dead warhorse (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0208.html) and a Fallen Miko (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0206.html). And to boot, Belkar did not fear a death sentence, so that certainly wasn't motivation for his actions. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0286.html)

And to point out the obvious, these are not "modern US laws", nor are they "feudal laws". These are the Giant's laws :)

[Krellen]

Belkar is chaotic neutral.
No, no he isn't. The Giant himself has stated explicitly that Belkar is Chaotic Evil (along with a "Get over it", IIRC); and frankly, there's no justification of a Neutral alignment for him. Killing Evil isn't Good, and he kills because he enjoys it, not because he's trying to uphold any noble goal or belief.

Belkar is Chaotic Evil. Get over it.

[Tokiko Mima]

I don't think anybody's mentioned this yet, but just disregard this if they have. Belkar and the OotS were not dragged to Azure City for breaking any Azure City laws. They were brought back by order of the Sapphire Guard. To quote from OotS 267 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0267.html):

"Mr. Scruffy reminds me that the Sapphire Guard has been given their holy powers by the Twelve Gods of the South to protect the gates...
And since the gods are not limited in their jurisdiction, neither are we.
Further, Mr. Scruffy goes on to point out that while Lord Shojo -- that's me -- is ALSO the secular ruler of Azure City, his post as Sapphire Commander is separate and unrelated.
He has had you captured strictly on the authority of the gods, not on behalf of his beloved city."

The Azure City laws don't enter into it.

This is all boilerplate invented by Lord Shojo.. there's not a lick of truth in this, as he reveals with his own words in #290 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0290.html). He sent his most powerful paladin to collect the OotS, knowing that they were innocent. The Gods were not involved at all, and the suggestion that they have or need 'jurisdiction' at all is specious. If the gods wanted to involve themselves directly, why didn't they prevent Shojo's murder or kill Xykon themselves? I don't think Rich wants this be a 'deus ex machina' comic.

[Wrecan]

I understand, Tokiko Mima, that you have agreed to the following.
1. Belkar did not have to kill the guard.
2. When escaping an illegal detention, you should use the minimum force necessary.

At this point, it seems like you have admitted that Belkar committed a criminal act by needlessly killing the unconscious guard during his escape.

How is it a defense to that killing that it is within character for Belkar to kill the guard? All that means is that the Giant isn't a poor writer, not that he has a defense to the crime.

Even accepting as true that a person unjustly incarcerated may use lethal force, if necessary, to escape, it doesn't excuse Belkar's actions, since his use of lethal force was not necessary to escape.

[Tokiko Mima]

Wait, so if I was a jailer, I could beat prisoners nearly to death, but if they hurt me back in order to stop me, then the prisoner get prosecuted? Why does that sound like a bad idea?


Yes, you can. It happens often. Would you like supporting evidence?

Wow. No, I have a low enough opinion of the justice system to believe you, but thanks.

So, I guess if I ever feel the need to beat people up who aren't allowed to fight back, I'll become a prison guard.

[Wrecan]

You'd be sued for damages, you'd be criminally tried and prosecuted. Ex-prison guards tend not to live long in prison.

Just because the prisoner doesn't get a reduced sentence (or a defense to criminal acts committed while unfairly incarcerated) for a guard's criminal acts does not mean there are no negative consequences.

Otherwise, prisoners would provoke guards into abusing them to get a reduced sentence.

[Tokiko Mima]

I understand, Tokiko Mima, that you have agreed to the following.
1. Belkar did not have to kill the guard.
2. When escaping an illegal detention, you should use the minimum force necessary.

At this point, it seems like you have admitted that Belkar committed a criminal act by needlessly killing the unconscious guard during his escape.


Even accepting as true that a person unjustly incarcerated may use lethal force, if necessary, to escape, it doesn't excuse Belkar's actions, since his use of lethal force was not necessary to escape.

He felt lethal force was needed, and that's why he used it. Belkar is obviously not the best judge of these things, but we don't have anything else to go on. The guard goes from one panel where he is yelling (obviously awake) because Belkar is knocking him into the roof, to the next panel where he is dead, with X's for eyes and his own sword in his gut. It's possible he was knocked unconscious, or that Belkar slew him by grabbing his sword on the way down. We can't really know, the action is between panels.


How is it a defense to that killing that it is within character for Belkar to kill the guard? All that means is that the Giant isn't a poor writer, not that he has a defense to the crime.

It's not a defense for Balkar, it's an indictment of the recklessness on the part of Miko and Shojo, who knew what Belkar was capable of yet did not warn, prepare an appropriate holding cell, or execute a proper search on Belkar. Miko and by proxy, Shojo shares blame in the acts committed by Belkar, is my point.

It's like ordering a highly dangerous, violent criminal be transferred to a minimum security facility, and not telling anyone there to be careful of him.

[Flakey]

Shojo has no jurisdiction over Belkar, and had to commit a crime to get him into Azure City. Please explain how it's wrong to try to escape someone that's kidnapping you? Just because they use a government body to do it doesn't change the scenario, it actually makes it worse. Shojo made Belkar's jailor complicit with, and therefore party to kidnapping.


Avoiding the very modern example that this happens in the real world (no politics). I can still cite 2 examples off the top of my head.

1) Carlos The Jackel kidnapped by the French to stand trial.

2) American legal law says it doesnt care how a person, thats wanted, gets into the country. Once your back on America soil you are aressted and have no recourse to complain how you got there ( You may have a case in the country you were brought from, but thats another matter). That includes being kidnapped and brought back.


In niether case, has the defendant the right to kill when back in the relavant country. Of Shojo complicity you do have a point, which is why he was being arested.

Arested for interfering with the trial, and not for bringing in the charges in the first place.

[MReav]

It's not a defense for Balkar, it's an indictment of the recklessness on the part of Miko and Shojo, who knew what Belkar was capable of yet did not warn, prepare an appropriate holding cell, or execute a proper search on Belkar. Miko and by proxy, Shojo shares blame in the acts committed by Belkar, is my point.

It's like ordering a highly dangerous, violent criminal be transferred to a minimum security facility, and not telling anyone there to be careful of him.

For the record, they threw Belkar into a segregated hole that would have required a sizable jump check to get out of. Miko may not have known about the Ring of Jumping, and searching for it would have involved (by implication) a rectal search. Given the size of Belkar's posterior, if they had, you'd be complaining about how Belkar was assaulted.

[Weasel of Doom]

I believe Hinjo was not acting lawful or good but in my case it is because I feel that giving such a lenient sentence to a known murderer is a lapse in his judgement, belkar can and undoubtably will murder innocents given the chance and should be held for much longer than one year.

Also i believe that the sapphire guard were fully justified as has been mentioned before. Their jurisdiction extends to all the gates

[Professor Tanhauser]

Ok, let's suppose that there's a make believe country out there called, oh, say, Oogaboog. Oogaboog is ruled by a theocratic dicatatorship that practices a repressive, primitive religion that condemns women to slavery, dictates every detail of life and forbids criticism or even questioning of the religion's tennants.

Now say that you, in your country, openly criticize the leaders of Oogaboog for their treatment of women and those of different religious faiths, so they send an Oogabooban law enforcement officer to your country to take you into custody, take you forcibly to Oogaboog, toss you in a dungeon and put you on trial for violating Oogaboogian law. The fact you spoke out against Oogaboog and it's religion in your country doesn't matter in an Oogaboogian court because they claim their law in universal and applies to everyone since it comes from (their) god, which they think is the only authority in te universe.

Boy, I bet you'd think that sucked, and if you had a chance to escape that involved killing an Oogaboogian guard I bet you'd take it, right?

OK, basically that's the situation belkar was in. 'nuff said.

[MReav]

Now say that you, in your country, openly criticize the leaders of Oogaboog for their treatment of women and those of different religious faiths, so they send an Oogabooban law enforcement officer to your country to take you into custody, take you forcibly to Oogaboog, toss you in a dungeon and put you on trial for violating Oogaboogian law. The fact you spoke out against Oogaboog and it's religion in your country doesn't matter in an Oogaboogian court because they claim their law in universal and applies to everyone since it comes from (their) god, which they think is the only authority in te universe.

Belkar and crew were not captured in any country. They were captured in international territory, where no one has any rights or laws (Roy mentioned that the Bandits they faced weren't technically breaking any laws, because there was no laws for them to break).

More importantly, if the servants of Oogabooga have JUSTIFIABLE belief that by doing so, you'd blow up the universe (i.e.: your complaints against Oogaboog involved trying to invoke the Unspeakable Words of Narnia, i.e.: the ones that blew up the world where the White Witch was from), they'd be a bit more justified in dragging your sorry ass for attempted universal genocide.


Boy, I bet you'd think that sucked, and if you had a chance to escape that involved killing an Oogaboogian guard I bet you'd take it, right?

Yes, but then I wouldn't stick around afterwards, which is EXACTLY what Belkar did. He took the time to write out a message at twice his height to taunt the person who imprisoned him. That would be like if you tried to write on the ceiling by jumping. Then he set up a trap to attack the person who dragged him down.

In your analogy, it would be like staying around, (taking valuable time out of your escape), so that he could moon the high priest of Oogaboog.


OK, basically that's the situation belkar was in. 'nuff said.

That was the situation Belkar was in, but Belkar didn't see it that way. By his own admission, didn't think he was justified in doing what he was doing (hence his words that he would go down for Murder 2).

[Tokiko Mima]

Belkar and crew were not captured in any country. They were captured in international territory, where no one has any rights or laws (Roy mentioned that the Bandits they faced weren't technically breaking any laws, because there was no laws for them to break).

More importantly, if the servants of Oogabooga have JUSTIFIABLE belief that by doing so, you'd blow up the universe (i.e.: your complaints against Oogaboog involved trying to invoke the Unspeakable Words of Narnia, i.e.: the ones that blew up the world where the White Witch was from), they'd be a bit more justified in dragging your sorry ass for attempted universal genocide.

A universe fragile enough to blow up when someone criticizes a random God with a ludicrus name deserves to blow up. You'd be doing the multiverse a favor. How in the world would you possibly keep everyone in the world from saying bad things about Oogabooga...? Your existance is going to get blown up sooner or later, so why wait?


Yes, but then I wouldn't stick around afterwards, which is EXACTLY what Belkar did. He took the time to write out a message at twice his height to taunt the person who imprisoned him. That would be like if you tried to write on the ceiling by jumping. Then he set up a trap to attack the person who dragged him down.

In your analogy, it would be like staying around, (taking valuable time out of your escape), so that he could moon the high priest of Oogaboog.

He was free... to massacre. He became overconfident in his ability to escape again.

Belkar choose Miko to annoy, and painted the wall with blood for her benefit. As for the height of the drawings, remember he IS wearing a Ring of Jumping.


That was the situation Belkar was in, but Belkar didn't see it that way. By his own admission, didn't think he was justified in doing what he was doing (hence his words that he would go down for Murder 2).

Because he wanted the street cred! Belkar almost never cares about the consequences of his actions. If you asked him if he was guilty, he would tell you "No." but then if you told him that guilty didn't always just mean he felt bad, he would say "Oh, well then I guess I did kill the guard."

I 100% guarrantee that Belkar thinks Belkar is justified in doing everything he does, including murder.

[BelkarFan]

From what it seems, convincing Hinjo to reduce the crime Belkar was accused of to Manslaughter and offering high level prisoners 5 years off their sentence to fight for Azure City seems like it was all Roy's idea... and Roy clearly states that he had figured out BEFOREHAND, that the combination of these two acts would get Belkar off scott free, if he chose to plea guilty and help save Azure City.

But is Roy being tricky or is he trying to get justice? Roy made some sort of legal argument like some of the ones we've seen here and Hinjo agreed that Belkar deserved a smaller charge because of it. Hinjo was not being tricked there; he could not have been confused that it would result in a lighter sentence for Belkar. Hinjo agreed to it because (from his point of view) he was giving Belkar justice in that reduced charge. Unless getting justice = beating the system in Asure City, I don't think there was any system beating involved.


Furtharmore, it seems that when Roy gave Hinjo the idea to use the prisoners to fight and lower Belkar's setence, Hinjo may not have realized that Roy was aiming to set Belkar free...

If Hinjo did not realize that, then I have to wonder what he thought he was doing by reducing the sentences on all those prisoners. Could have have thought that reducing sentences by 5 years was code for keeping evil people locked up forever?

I think he knew exactly what he was doing when he reduced Belkar sentence by 5 years: letting Belkar out early as a lawful good reward for fighting on the good side of a war.



Those two suggestions may have been made during two different conversations and thus Hinjo didn't make the connection... however, Hinjo made the connections when Roy said the whole plan in front of him

You mean that if Hinjo had not heard what Roy had said, then Hinjo would never have even considered the 5 year reduction in sentence when passing sentence upon Belkar? Can you imagine Hinjo giving Belkar a 4 year sentence and thinking justice had been done, then only later realizing his 'mistake'?

I think even Hinjo is incapable of forgetting his own words from just a few panels ago, especially when making what is supposed to be a rather important decision, though I must admit that Hinjo seems to be taking the sentencing of Belkar rather lightly.

As I see it, there are only 3 options to describe the unknown elements of what Hinjo has done:

Six years is the just and appropriate sentence for Belkar's reduced charge and pleading 'guilty', so Hinjo was chaotically lying/making stuff up when he said that Roy shouldn't have explained things within listening distance.
The appropriate sentence was something else (which automatically makes it unlawful-good) and Hinjo arbitrarily increased the sentence for Belkar's crime to punish Roy (or because Roy tricked Hinjo into a lesser charge and Hinjo is so incompetent that he didn't realize that was going to result in a lighter punishment until Roy explained.)
The appropriate sentence was something else and Hinjo added two years as a way of taking away two years from Belkar's reward for defending the city. Everyone else gets that reward but not Belkar, because for everyone else it is justice but for Belkar it is beating the system.


The point is that Roy's supposed attempt to beat the system is so direct, so straight-forward and obvious, so just that even Hinjo agreed with it, that Hinjo could only have been in the dark about it until Roy's explanation if Hinjo is a completely useless ruler.

[Taffer]

So, how about those extradition treaties? As far as we know, the Sapphire Guard have an agreement with the other nations that they can catch recognized criminals anywhere. Heck, bounty hunters catch people in other countries all the time.

To reiterate other people, 4 years was the MINIMUM. The judge reserves all right to go with the minimum, the maximum, or somewhere in between when sentencing. Plea bargains are offered as recommendations, jury recommendations are just that, and the judges discretion is what matters. If Belkar wants, he can appeal, but as of right now everything seems in order.

[BelkarFan]

To reiterate other people, 4 years was the MINIMUM. The judge reserves all right to go with the minimum, the maximum, or somewhere in between when sentencing. Plea bargains are offered as recommendations, jury recommendations are just that, and the judges discretion is what matters.

Actually, I am pretty sure that the facts of the case are what matters. The judge is not supposed to choose some random number between the minimum and the maximum sentence by rolling dice, or according to some selfish motivation or a whim. Judges are suppose to have good, carefully thought-out and impartial reasons for everything that they do.

If Hinjo's reason is anything like that he suggests it is, then he is not being a good judge.

[Tokiko Mima]

So, how about those extradition treaties? As far as we know, the Sapphire Guard have an agreement with the other nations that they can catch recognized criminals anywhere. Heck, bounty hunters catch people in other countries all the time.

Countries that have extradition treaties with each other don't generally make up laws like 'weakening the fabric of the universe.' Usually, a country will collect it's own criminals with it's own agents, then transfer that criminal to to extradition treaty country. It's generally not a good idea to have agents of a foreign power enforcing their laws on your soil. Ask China about that.

Bounty hunters are not expressly given permmission to cross borders. they can get in a lot of trouble if they don't contact the country they are in's officials to let them know they what they are doing and if they can hunt a particular individual. If they don't it's serial kidnapping, and the bounty hunter would be treated like a criminal him/herself.

[Nightmarenny]

Actually, I am pretty sure that the facts of the case are what matters. The judge is not supposed to choose some random number between the minimum and the maximum sentence by rolling dice, or according to some selfish motivation or a whim. Judges are suppose to have good, carefully thought-out and impartial reasons for everything that they do.

If Hinjo's reason is anything like that he suggests it is, then he is not being a good judge.
His thoughts were good. Here they are,

"This murderer will get off without punishment if I allow this. He is a criminal and will learn nothing if they are allowed to flaunt the laws. If he thinks this is what will happen if he breaks the law he may do it again. I'll give him a year so that he learns"

Oh and to anyone claiming that Belkar ever intended to escape at any point, you should go back and reread. He intended to be killed by Miko and then get ressurected(perhapes even after they left the city if he were lucky)

[Krellen]

If Hinjo's reason is anything like that he suggests it is, then he is not being a good judge.
"Hinjo didn't let Belkar get away with murder! He's a bad judge and a horrible paladin!"

How does this reasoning make any sense?

[BelkarFan]

"This murderer will get off without punishment if I allow this. He is a criminal and will learn nothing if they are allowed to flaunt the laws. If he thinks this is what will happen if he breaks the law he may do it again. I'll give him a year so that he learns"

If that is what Hinjo is thinking, then why did he reduce the charge from Murder to Manslaughter? And why did he offer to reduce Belkar's sentence even further by giving him the chance to defend the city?

If Hinjo was really so concerned with punishing Belkar, I seriously doubt that he would have done either of those things.

[MReav]

A universe fragile enough to blow up when someone criticizes a random God with a ludicrus name deserves to blow up. You'd be doing the multiverse a favor. How in the world would you possibly keep everyone in the world from saying bad things about Oogabooga...? Your existance is going to get blown up sooner or later, so why wait?

First off, the word may not be well known (I stated that the insults towards Oogabooga involved trying to pronounce the word). Furthermore, the the Oogabooga example was kinda ridiculous to begin with. Azure City is not the oppressive state the example was, and protecting the world is a much better justification for pushing people around then complaining about some idiotic religion, especially in a universe that you can contact the gods and ask whether or not this is all crap or if the people of Oogabooga or Azure City or whatever actually have a point. Lastly, you're acting like the people who are forced to live in this haphazard Universe deserve to be killed because the divinities who built the universe screwed up.


He was free... to massacre. He became overconfident in his ability to escape again.

Yes, but if you're going around massacring people you know are there and they're not trying to kill you or are amongst people trying to kill you, then you can't claim or have anyone claim on your behalf that you don't deserve to be there, even if you were dragged there unlawfully. You were just going to snap anyways, so why should we bother coming up with some ridiculous excuse when several hundred other crimes can suffice?


Belkar choose Miko to annoy, and painted the wall with blood for her benefit. As for the height of the drawings, remember he IS wearing a Ring of Jumping.

But he doesn't have a ring of levitation, which is more useful when making graffiti. Writing and drawing legibly is not easy to do when you're going up and down, especially if you have a reach of less than your head.


Because he wanted the street cred! Belkar almost never cares about the consequences of his actions. If you asked him if he was guilty, he would tell you "No." but then if you told him that guilty didn't always just mean he felt bad, he would say "Oh, well then I guess I did kill the guard."

I 100% guarrantee that Belkar thinks Belkar is justified in doing everything he does, including murder.

But THAT DOESN'T MAKE IT JUSTIFIED! Belkar will kill people on what we find the flimsiest of excuses (most often being "I enjoy it", though "I get XP" is also there).

In fact, realistically, Belkar should never have been dragged to Azure City to be tried on damaging reality, because Belkar should have long since been tried and executed or jailed for life or doped up on anti-psychosis medication or had his mind wiped because he's a dangerous psychopath who kills people on a whim, and has (or at least tried to) since before he's had a sufficient numbers of levels to give a group of low level warriors much trouble a killing him (in 340, he complained at his High School Prom that he was prevented from stabbing everyone). He's only in this comic because the Author wills it.

Origin of PCs spoiler

If V didn't accidentally blow up the jail, Belkar would never have escaped (or escaped at the time he did), and he wouldn't have needed to get himself attached to the party, them being nearest well-armed group leaving town

[The Extinguisher]

Except for one thing Tokiko Mima, they weren't in any country. They were in no-mans land, and there was no one to contact. Hell, there aren't even any laws to say Miko couldn't arrest them.

They didn't even get to a kingdom of until later.

[Nightmarenny]

If that is what Hinjo is thinking, then why did he reduce the charge from Murder to Manslaughter? And why did he offer to reduce Belkar's sentence even further by giving him the chance to defend the city?

If Hinjo was really so concerned with punishing Belkar, I seriously doubt that he would have done either of those things.I said he thought Belkar should be punished. Which he does so how does that equate "he should not get anybreaks and be tossed in jail forever"?

He changed the charges from Murder to manslaughter because he couldn't get around the fact that his uncle preformed several questionable act that led to that guards brief death. Not enough that Belkar should get off scott free but enough that he couldn't charge him with murder in good concience.

He offered to lower the sentence if he faught for the city because he's asking people to put their lives on the line to protect the live's of the city that imprisoned them, that deverves some reward.

There is a diffrence between punishing someone and just doing anything they can to hurt him because its "right".

[BelkarFan]

I said he thought Belkar should be punished. Which he does so how does that equate "he should not get anybreaks and be tossed in jail forever"?

So Hinjo wants Belkar to be punished but he has just done everything in his power to make that punishment as minor as possible. He wants it to be tiny, just not nonexistent.

I suppose that makes sense. I just think it should be clear that this is not some plot of Roy's that has been suddenly and foolishly revealed to Hinjo. Remember that Hinjo has been a part of this 'plot' every step of the way. These steps to reduce Belkar's punishment were Hinjo's decisions, even if they were by Roy's suggestion.

Unless Hinjo is as an Int close to Belkar's, Hinjo knew of the potential to get Belkar off and long ago decided to give Belkar six years. In that case, it was rather chaotic of him to pretend to be giving Belkar six years because of the PCs plotting 3 feet from him.

[Wrecan]

He felt lethal force was needed, and that's why he used it.
Yeah, we get why he used it. That's not what the thread is about. That isn't what anybody is discussing (except, apparently, you). The question is whether that is a defense ot the crimes of which he is accused. (Thus the title, which indicates a discussion of legal rights.)


Belkar is obviously not the best judge of these things, but we don't have anything else to go on.
Wha-huh? how about the fact that Hinjo, who acknowledges that Belkar's arrest was unlawful, and who was raised from birth to administer the laws of the city, and who is a paladin, thinks he is justified in trying Belkar for voluntary manslaughter?!

I think Hinjo's opinion about what the law allows is a heckuva lot more informative about what Belkar's legal rights are than Belkar's subjective opinion.

At any rate, even Belkar thinks what he did was illegal and without legal defense! He thinks he committed second degree murder!

I really don't understand what point you are trying to make. Do you think Belkar has a defense to the charges of which he was accused? O what basis? Roy doesn't think he has a defense. Hinjo doesn't. Even belkar doesn't. Nobody thinks he has a defense. Well, except you. (maybe. I'm trying to figure out your position.)


The guard goes from one panel where he is yelling (obviously awake) because Belkar is knocking him into the roof, to the next panel where he is dead, with X's for eyes and his own sword in his gut. It's possible he was knocked unconscious, or that Belkar slew him by grabbing his sword on the way down. We can't really know, the action is between panels.
Actually, we do know, since he says "Glurk!", and dead people don't talk. The guard dies between the penultimate and last panels, not the one you identify. Belkar could have spent six seconds on an untrained heal check to stabilize him, but chose not to.


It's not a defense for Balkar, it's an indictment of the recklessness on the part of Miko and Shojo
Well, I think you made a wrong turn somewhere, because everybody else in this thread thinks we're discussing Belkar's legal rights, not whether Shojo and Miko are also culpable.

[Wrecan]

If that is what Hinjo is thinking, then why did he reduce the charge from Murder to Manslaughter?
Manslaughter is a category of murder in criminal law. one with less culpability. he reduced the charge from second-degree murder to manslaughter because Roy convinced him it was appropriate to do so and Hinjo agreed.


And why did he offer to reduce Belkar's sentence even further by giving him the chance to defend the city?
Because he needed every available hand, and was willing to give Belkar credit towards his sentence. he never agreed to let any of the prisoners free. Merely to recognize their willingness to risk themselves for the good of the City as something that meant the increased possibility of redemption.

The conversation between Belkar and Roy showed Hinjo that Belkar probably wasn't entirely redeemed, so he instituted a sentence of one year, probably in the hopes that such time under the watchful guide of the Sapphire Guard might lead him further towards goodness.

[Wrecan]

In that case, it was rather chaotic of him to pretend to be giving Belkar six years because of the PCs plotting 3 feet from him.

Or, more likely, Roy convinced him to punish Belkar for manslaughter rather than murder and separately convinced Hinjo to over the reduced sentence. in all the planning and war preparations, hinjo hadn't realized this would mean no punishment for Belkar at all, until Hinjo pointed it out.

Being a paladin doesn't mean you never have to make a hurried decision, or that you can't reconsider a decision based on new facts being presented to you. Roy and Belkar's conversation showed Hinjo he was about to be tricked, so he reconsidered his decision in light of the facts he hadn't considered.

[BelkarFan]

He never agreed to let any of the prisoners free.

Sure he did. Perhaps he isn't planning on letting them free immediately, but the point of a sentence is that you stay in jail for just so long and then you get set free. Reducing the sentence means exactly and only setting people free earlier than otherwise. Setting people free is what this is all about.

Assuming that the old guy with 14 years left has the most years of them all, the remaining two are probably getting pretty close to immediate release with 5 years off their sentences. And if 5 years off their sentence means they can be released, then why shouldn't they be? It seems like they deserve it.


Merely to recognize their willingness to risk themselves for the good of the City as something that meant the increased possibility of redemption.

How is a reduced sentence an increased possibility of redemption? Surely it is merely letting people go free instead of holding them for the time that was justly chosen for them. There is no redemption involved and there is no matter of chance or possibility. It's not that they may be released early, according to the deal they are sure to be released early, redeemed or not.

Even so, it does make a fitting reward. Jail is no place for the heroes that saved the city.


Or, more likely, Roy convinced him to punish Belkar for manslaughter rather than murder and separately convinced Hinjo to over the reduced sentence. in all the planning and war preparations, hinjo hadn't realized this would mean no punishment for Belkar at all, until Hinjo pointed it out.

I don't believe that Hinjo is so absent-minded as to actually be tricked like that, but even if he was tricked that does not mean that it wasn't justice.

If both parts of the mercy that Hinjo showed Belkar were just, then surely Belkar deserves the combination of the two. Just because it seems like Belkar has earned a lot of mercy for himself does not mean that it is more than he deserves. (Despite his nature, Belkar is still a hero and does not deserve to share bunks with the LG.)

[Professor Tanhauser]

One issue the balkar bashers keep raising is that belkar didn't try to escape after offing the guard in his escape attempt.

Well, what if he was trying to rescue the rest of the order instead of just saving his own skin? I mean, he got out of a jail cell, but the rest were still there, so maybe he could claim he was trying to free his unjustly imprisoned comrades.

Remember, the gits in AC don't know belkar as well as we do....

[The Extinguisher]

Except you know, he wasn't. He clearly was out to screw with Miko's life.
Self Quoting, because this needs to be said again here.


I love the way this forums works. If you do anything to the PCs that even remotely resembles not bending over to their will, over half of the forums goes crazy and starts to call you the incarnation of pure evil.

I just find it so incredibly funny.

[Wrecan]

Sure he did. Perhaps he isn't planning on letting them free immediately
Ugh. That's obviously what I meant. Reduced sentences means a release sooner. But equally obviously, none of those people were in prison for life (because you can't be imprisoned for "life-5 years"). They were all intended to be released eventually.


And if 5 years off their sentence means they can be released, then why shouldn't they be? It seems like they deserve it.I have no idea how this ties to anything I wrote. Please explain.


How is a reduced sentence an increased possibility of redemption?
That's not what I worte. At all. I said the willingness ot risk one's safety for Azure City indicates an increased possibility of redemption. Self-sacrifice is one of the indicators of being good. So Hinjo recognized that witha reward of a reduced sentence.


I don't believe that Hinjo is so absent-minded as to actually be tricked like that
Did they not recently say that they've been really busy with war preparation? Why is it so hard to believe that details can get lost in the rush?


If both parts of the mercy that Hinjo showed Belkar were just, then surely Belkar deserves the combination of the two.
Not necessarily. Hinjo had already shown mercy by reducing the crime from second-degree murder to manslaughter. He may not have considered the cumulative effect of that reduction and the offer of reduced sentence.


Well, what if he was trying to rescue the rest of the order instead of just saving his own skin? I mean, he got out of a jail cell, but the rest were still there, so maybe he could claim he was trying to free his unjustly imprisoned comrades.
Well, he admitted his whole plan to Vaarsuvius in the presence of Azure City guards (see panel 4 of strip 286), so I find it really quite very unlikely that defense was going to be in any way believable.


Remember, the gits in AC don't know belkar as well as we do....
Yeah, I'm pretty sure the guard standing behind Belkar gets the same Listen checks from three feet away (possibly less) that Hinjo gets. So I think they need to know exactly as much abotu Belkar as they need to convict him of his crime.

[originalpimp]

One issue the balkar bashers keep raising is that belkar didn't try to escape after offing the guard in his escape attempt.

Exactly, this is what some people in this thread forget. Belkar was trying to escape, not because he was unjustly imprisioned, but to try and get Miko to go nuts. I'm not even sure if the thought that he was wrongly imprisioned was even on his mind at the time since he was concentrating on Miko.

[MReav]

One issue the balkar bashers keep raising is that belkar didn't try to escape after offing the guard in his escape attempt.

Which happens to torpedo the idea that he was just trying to escape, because it involves taking precious time out of escaping to jump up and down to write a big message with his stubby little arms (yeah I know, he had the ring, but trying writing on a wall jumping up and down using [for an analogy] a trampoline, having to get new blood every so often).


Well, what if he was trying to rescue the rest of the order instead of just saving his own skin? I mean, he got out of a jail cell, but the rest were still there, so maybe he could claim he was trying to free his unjustly imprisoned comrades.

And smearing the blood of a guard helps get his comrades out how? He's jumping up and down writing on a wall, not recovering weapons, figuring out lock mechanisms, finding out patrol routes, etc.


Remember, the gits in AC don't know belkar as well as we do....

That's a Zone of Truth away. Unlike Cliffport, usage of magic to gather information is not illegal.

[Cifer]

I think what we've really seen is the difference between Lawful Neutral and Lawful Good. The first one cares about the letter of the law while the second one balances it with the intent of the law - the latter being "murderous bastards should go to jail".

I also agree with Swordguy: We only know of the legal system of AC that it partially resembles America - and that it does that mainly for comedic value. The rest of it may be american, feudal or anything else, especially since divination magic is quite probably legal here, which is already quite a divergence.

[BelkarFan]

And if 5 years off their sentence means they can be released, then why shouldn't they be? It seems like they deserve it.

I have no idea how this ties to anything I wrote. Please explain.

I can't find any specific quote that really well ties in here, but people on this thread have been suggesting that Belkar doesn't deserve to be released, despite justly deserving 5 years taken off a justly deserved 4 year sentence. If that is not you, then disregard the statement.


That's not what I worte. At all. I said the willingness ot risk one's safety for Azure City indicates an increased possibility of redemption.

I apologize for misunderstanding you. I should have seen that is what you meant.


Did they not recently say that they've been really busy with war preparation? Why is it so hard to believe that details can get lost in the rush?

Even if he has been too busy to put the pieces together until now, they are coming together in one this page with or without Roy's help. Hinjo has just offered the prisoners freedom 5 years early. There is no way that he could pass a 4 year sentence on Belkar and not notice that none of that time would be served.


Not necessarily. Hinjo had already shown mercy by reducing the crime from second-degree murder to manslaughter. He may not have considered the cumulative effect of that reduction and the offer of reduced sentence.

This was not mercy for mercy's sake. Each of those to reductions in Belkar's sentence were deserved for separate and just reasons. Hinjo did not reduce the charges for Belkar just to be nice, but because of the circumstances of the crime. Hinjo did not reduce that sentence because he felt that Belkar shouldn't spend a lot of time in jail; he did it because Belkar is going to help save the city at a time when the survival of the city is in doubt.

And really, 5 years off his sentence is a pretty small reward for potentially saving the world.

Ultimately, I am sure that is what Roy was thinking. Lawful good Roy is the last one who would want to get Belkar off the hook by trickery. Roy thought that Belkar deserved to get off.

[Tharr]

Maybe time off then for good fighting in the war.

[Nightmarenny]

One issue the balkar bashers keep raising is that belkar didn't try to escape after offing the guard in his escape attempt.

Well, what if he was trying to rescue the rest of the order instead of just saving his own skin? I mean, he got out of a jail cell, but the rest were still there, so maybe he could claim he was trying to free his unjustly imprisoned comrades.

Remember, the gits in AC don't know belkar as well as we do....
Hm no, I don't think so but I suppose it is possible after all HIS PLAN ONLY ENDED WITH HIS DEATH!

Prof. I'm ninty-nine percent sure this is a pale attemt to play devils advocate. If that is so I say only this, find a new game!

[Sergeantbrother]

Ok, let's suppose that there's a make believe country out there called, oh, say, Oogaboog. Oogaboog is ruled by a theocratic dicatatorship that practices a repressive, primitive religion that condemns women to slavery, dictates every detail of life and forbids criticism or even questioning of the religion's tennants.

Now say that you, in your country, openly criticize the leaders of Oogaboog for their treatment of women and those of different religious faiths, so they send an Oogabooban law enforcement officer to your country to take you into custody, take you forcibly to Oogaboog, toss you in a dungeon and put you on trial for violating Oogaboogian law. The fact you spoke out against Oogaboog and it's religion in your country doesn't matter in an Oogaboogian court because they claim their law in universal and applies to everyone since it comes from (their) god, which they think is the only authority in te universe.

Boy, I bet you'd think that sucked, and if you had a chance to escape that involved killing an Oogaboogian guard I bet you'd take it, right?

OK, basically that's the situation belkar was in. 'nuff said.

Wow, that's a great example, I completely agree.

I'll take that even one step farther. What if you never even criticized Oogaboog. The charge was just made up by the corrupt and dishonest leader of Oogaboog to get you into the country.

And, contrary to what others have said, the Order of the Stick was not captured outside of any country. They were captured somewhere - in the country of "Somewhere" in fact, which is where the Weary Travelers Inn and Tavern is located. Miko may have convinced the Order to come with her a little while (after attacking them without provocation) in the middle of nowhere - but when she actually illegally kidnapped them, they where in Somewhere.

[Luvlein]

So, if somebody feels he's wrongfully imprisoned in your country, you tell him to go ahead and kill as many jailers as possible, to continue by using their bodily fluids to insult his now-dead victims without remorse, and on top of that you expect the judges of your land to let the guy go free?

[Teron]

For the record, they threw Belkar into a segregated hole that would have required a sizable jump check to get out of. Miko may not have known about the Ring of Jumping, and searching for it would have involved (by implication) a rectal search. Given the size of Belkar's posterior, if they had, you'd be complaining about how Belkar was assaulted.
I assumed he was wearing it on his "eleventh finger".

By the way, you people defending Belkar are insane.

[Spiryt]

By the way, you people defending Belkar are insane.

Why? Because you say so ? :smallconfused:
I also think that Belkar here have full rights to do what he did.
I will do the same thing ( of course assuming that i will be capable of killing of guard(s).

[Luvlein]

Oh, good.
But please do us a favour, don't mention OotS in your trial.

[Spiryt]

Oh, good.
But please do us a favour, don't mention OotS in your trial.

Why? :smallbiggrin:
In cause of trial i will defend myself at all cost :smallwink:

[WarriorTribble]

I'd just like to point out that considering Belkar and the party's original crime (weakening the fabric of a reality) it can be argued that all the governing powers within said reality would have jurisdiction over the group. Ideally there would be an international tribunal available, but that's another topic.

[Wrecan]

people on this thread have been suggesting that Belkar doesn't deserve to be released, despite justly deserving 5 years taken off a justly deserved 4 year sentence.
He never had a four-year sentence. That was merely Roy's assumption. Hinjo never promised to give Belkar the minimum, even to Roy. As far as I can tell, Hinjo had reserved the right to determine the sentence until he had considered the facts. And that's what he did.


Even if he has been too busy to put the pieces together until now, they are coming together in one this page with or without Roy's help. Hinjo has just offered the prisoners freedom 5 years early. There is no way that he could pass a 4 year sentence on Belkar and not notice that none of that time would be served.
And there is no indication that absent the conversation, that's what Belkar would have gotten. All Hinjo indicated was that Roy's only chance of getting Belkar no jail time was not revealing their plan in front of the judge in the hopes that he wound't think to subtract five form four.

Hinjo never said he was going to sentence Belkar to only four or five years for voluntary manslaughter.


This was not mercy for mercy's sake. Each of those to reductions in Belkar's sentence were deserved for separate and just reasons. Hinjo did not reduce the charges for Belkar just to be nice, but because of the circumstances of the crime. Hinjo did not reduce that sentence because he felt that Belkar shouldn't spend a lot of time in jail; he did it because Belkar is going to help save the city at a time when the survival of the city is in doubt.
Absolutely true. but you know what else Hinjo never did? He never promised to sentence Belkar to the minimum sentence and he never said that was what he would have done without Roy's comments.


And really, 5 years off his sentence is a pretty small reward for potentially saving the world.
Well, the kidnapper agreed with you. The other convicts all seemed to think it was a good deal.


Ultimately, I am sure that is what Roy was thinking. Lawful good Roy is the last one who would want to get Belkar off the hook by trickery. Roy thought that Belkar deserved to get off.
Did you read the comic? Clearly, Roy was planning to get Belkar off by trickery. That's why he said "Aw, crap" when he realized he revealed his plan in front of Hinjo.

Even Lawful Good characters sometimes get by on trickery.


I'll just like to point out that considering Belkar, and the party's original crime (weakening the fabric of a reality) it can be argued that all the governing powers within said reality would have jurisdiction over the group. Ideally there would be a international tribunal available, but that's another topic.

Nobody knows about the gates except the Order of the Scribble, the Sapphire Guard, the Linear Guild, the fiendish lords, the Oracle, Redcloak (and his order) and Xykon. The King of Somewhere doesn't know of their existence. It's utterly clear to me that Miko kidnapped the Order of the Stick from the Kingdom of Somewhere.

But that's irrelevent. Even if it is a legal defense to murder that you it is necessary to do so in the process of escape (and it never is), the murder was neither necessary nor in the process of escape. Belkar fully admitted in the presence of a Sapphire Guardsman that he wasn't escaping; he was trying to make a paladin fall. The murder wasn't necessary. The guard was alive immediately on escape and could have been saved.

[WarriorTribble]

Nobody knows about the gates except the Order of the Scribble, the Sapphire Guard, the Linear Guild, the fiendish lords, the Oracle, Redcloak (and his order) and Xykon. The King of Somewhere doesn't know of their existence. It's utterly clear to me that Miko kidnapped the Order of the Stick from the Kingdom of Somewhere.

But that's irrelevent. Even if it is a legal defense to murder that you it is necessary to do so in the process of escape (and it never is), the murder was neither necessary nor in the process of escape. Belkar fully admitted in the presence of a Sapphire Guardsman that he wasn't escaping; he was trying to make a paladin fall. The murder wasn't necessary. The guard was alive immediately on escape and could have been saved.I was simply stating who can get a piece of the Order for their actions, since a few folks were claiming the Sapphire Guild should have no legal or moral power over them. I know most folks are ignorant of the Gates. I said nothing about Belkar's acts while escaping, I already agree with the view that he's guilty.

[doliemaster]

Looking at what belkar makes it all legal, false imprisoment=right to escape, guard= kill or be killed mentality.Belkar might of thought he needed miko to escape i.e. finding a way out, so as you can see belkar had every right to what he did.

[Copacetic]

Belkar needs to spend some time in jail after killing some hobos. Nough said.

[MReav]

Looking at what belkar makes it all legal, false imprisoment=right to escape, guard= kill or be killed mentality.Belkar might of thought he needed miko to escape i.e. finding a way out, so as you can see belkar had every right to what he did.

Except that Belkar didn't think that. We know what Belkar thought based on his own statements. Looking at it in a vacuum, without hearing his statements, it might be semi-justifiable (no, not even since trying to escape involves not standing around out in the open for however long it takes to write a message that's twice as big as you), but one sit down on the Chair of Truth will reveal Belkar was just trying to cause harm to sentient beings for the purpose of causing harm to sentient beings.

[Luvlein]

Even a psychotic murderer like Belkar recognizes that he is, in fact, a murderer.
Legally, there is no right to escape, and there certainly is no shooting licence for killling off guards when trying to do so, neither legally nor morally.

[Wrecan]

I said nothing about Belkar's acts while escaping, I already agree with the view that he's guilty.
I know. That last bit wasn't directed at you and I apologize for being unclear.


Belkar might of thought he needed miko to escapeHe might have, but he didn't. We know he didn't because he brazenly admitted that he had no intention of escaping. In fact, he figured he was going to be killed and then raised by Durkon.

[Nightmarenny]

Looking at what belkar makes it all legal, false imprisoment=right to escape, guard= kill or be killed mentality.Belkar might of thought he needed miko to escape i.e. finding a way out, so as you can see belkar had every right to what he did.
[sigh]

Belkar didn't plan to escape, he planned to die so Miko would fall.

Belkar Didn't plan to escape, he planned to die so Miko would fall.

Belkar didn't plan to escape, he planned to die.

[Lizard Lord]

It may not have been good to add another two years, but it wasn't evil. The only alignment choice in that situation was lawful or chaotic. Shockingly the paladin chose lawful. :smalltongue:

If you are in prison and you believe yourself to be guilty (as the Order of the Stick did) the lawful thing to do is to wait for your lawful punishment.

If you believe you are not guilty the lawful thing to do is to wait until you are proven so (no matter how bleak it maybe).

And believe it or not the laws are made to ensure that people act *gasp* lawfully.

Under no condition is it legal to murder the guards, who are just doing their lawful duty, while trying to escape.

Belkar may have been cleared of the charges that put him in jail but he is most certainly guilty of his manslaughter charges, and Hinjo has every lawful right to sentence Belkar to six years instead of the MINIMUM 4, especially when he knows Belkar is only pleading guilty to cheat the system. Roy was in no position to give Belkar a legitimate plea bargain.

I do believe the idea of letting people get a lighter sentence was meant as a reward for those that do not try to escape their lawful punishment.

[LiteYear]

I think the increase to the six year sentence was wrong. To present my view, I'd like to bring up a hypothetical example to compare what Hinjo did.

Let's say an accused has pled guilty to a crime of Assault (the actual crime doesn't really matter). In sentencing, the judge, in delivering a sentence of 5 years, and asks the convicted person if he understands the sentence. The prisoner (stupidly) responds to the effect of: "Whatever. When I get out, I'll probably considering doing it again." Should the judge then be justified to be able to increase the sentence based on that statement alone?

The way I see it, based on the emphasis given when he presented the sentence ruling, and his smart response after, Hinjo did change the sentence he was considering based on listening in on what Roy was explaining to Belkar. And to me, that is morally wrong.

[TOAOMT]

To think, this is what it would take to get me to register. (Long time reader)

Hypothetically speaking, Belkar would have been fully justified in escaping from a Good/Evil and from a Law/Chaos axis. Here's why.

The Breakout

While escape from imprisonment by a government body is unlawful, the lack of jurisdiction over Belkar is important to note. He was more or less kidnapped and so up to the point of knocking the guard out (or incapacitating him with lethal force) Belkar is justified and also taking an action just about any PC would take, potentially with the mindset that this is a farce trial and only by escaping can he help his party.

The Murder

So far Belkar's on the Neutral Good path of escape (Yes, I know he's CE, but bear with me). However, he quickly puts an evil bent on it by needlessly slaughtering the incapacitated guard and desecrating his corpse. Painting the walls with blood, not making murder worse, desecrating a corpse is another crime to stack onto it though.

The Fight and Flight

While not on the path of good, Belkar could still escape and maybe pass it off as "I had to make sure the guard didn't follow me." However, instead of this, he baited Miko into a battle throughout the castle grounds. This takes his actions from trying to escape to premeditated murder, desecration of a corpse, and harassment of a government official.

So yes... Belkar could have had just escape from wrongful imprisonment with necessary use of force and been ok. However, he willingly made it three felonies and that's just getting started.

What Hinjo did may not have been lawful, but it wasn't UNlawful. He saw that he was going to be played so he took a page from his uncle and played the system without abusing it, as sort of a "You can't trick the law in this town, punks" sort of thing

[Nightmarenny]

I think the increase to the six year sentence was wrong. To present my view, I'd like to bring up a hypothetical example to compare what Hinjo did.

Let's say an accused has pled guilty to a crime of Assault (the actual crime doesn't really matter). In sentencing, the judge, in delivering a sentence of 5 years, and asks the convicted person if he understands the sentence. The prisoner (stupidly) responds to the effect of: "Whatever. When I get out, I'll probably considering doing it again." Should the judge then be justified to be able to increase the sentence based on that statement alone?

The way I see it, based on the emphasis given when he presented the sentence ruling, and his smart response after, Hinjo did change the sentence he was considering based on listening in on what Roy was explaining to Belkar. And to me, that is morally wrong.
That is in no way an acurate simile. Yet your still wrong. If a man who's about to get out of prison states that he intends to comite a crime he deserves to be sentanced to more time on stupidity along, not to mention a clear intication that he is not fully rehabilitated.
Prison is a rehabilitating tool, if someone hasn't been then clearly more time is neccisary.

This however is not what happened. This is more like someone pleading guilty to get a four year sentance without being promised to him from the judge, getting six years and then complaining because his expectations wern't met.

[norms29]

Ok, I only made through two pages of this thread and I'm ready to smack someone. because some blatantly obvious things being missed on both sides.

First: while it is certainly not true that you have a right or duty to escape a lawful arrest by a lawful authority, you do have a right to resist unlawful arrest and imprisonment, which Belkar's original capture was.
second, While Belkar was an accomplice to the action (Elan did it) for which he was "arrested" (read: unlawfully kidnapped) he did no commit a crime as such, because ,and take notes because this is crucial, There WAS NO LAW prohibiting this action therefore any "arrest" on it's basis was ipso facto ulawful.
Third and most importantly, Azure City had no jurisdiction in either the place of the "crime" or the "arrest" s even if they did have such a law they STILL had no authority to arrest belkar.

so to put it in terms of the "Imagine This" scenarios,
it is not as if you (representing Belkar) killed someone and the police-station one-block from your house sent someone after you.

It is rather as if one day some Foriegner in an unfamiliar uniform attacked you and your friends with no apparent provokation, then after subduing you, says you will now be taken to a country you've never heard of and refuses to tell you why.
When you get there, you find out that you stand accused of doing something which may sound dire but has no actual verifiablity (remember, neither Durkons ties to thor nor V's immense arcane knowledge revealed any damage to the fabric of reality), like having dreams that are offensive to their gods. WHich, I might add, they don't even have a law against, but the local Warlord/dictator thinks you should be tried for it anywhy.

can anyone tell me escape is not the rational option.

Also, Am I the only one who thinks Belkar wasn't out of line killing the guard. it was, after all, within his rights to escape, and if escaping his immedeit captivity was all that securing his freedom required then knocking the guard out might have been preferable, but belkar was not in such Ideal conditions.
He did'nt know how long the guard woud stay out, or howfar he would have to run. and as for stay, his clash with Miko aside, he had a right, if not a duty to stay and help his friends escape with him.

going back to scenario I outlined. I you were kidnapped in such a manner and managed to knockout the thug guarding you, Would you really want to risk him getting back up and sounding the alarm. and then would you really abandon your friends to the fate you escaped. Well, realisticly some of us might because we're not adventurers and lack the skills to truly help in that situation. but would you really be able to say it was the right thing to do and "if you could have helped" (as Belkar could) you wouldn't have.

As for his altercation with Miko, IF he were trying to kill her it might be justified as securing his escape (she caught him once) he wasn't trying to kill her, even going so far as to give her a potion to keep her alive, so all you can really accuse him of is "annoying a... whatever she is" (Officer of the law? Agent of unlawful coercion? Thug? Kiddnapper?). so in the end, the implication that Belkar should (and I mean should in a purely legal sense) spend even on hour, never mind one year, in Azure city's prison is a gross affront to the concept of law, or rule of law. even if he is a bad person and in some abstract sense deserves to be punished

Edit: Weird that most of things I said were missed were mentioned by the guy RIGHT BEFORE ME

[norms29]

Oh one more thing,

from a legal standpoint, it really doesn't matter that belkar's intention wasn't to escape or help his friends, all of the actions he took which might otherwise be illegal still would have been taken had that been his intention

[Green Bean]

This is how it boils down for me.

Escaping: Fine. Whether or not Shojo had authority to arrest :belkar: or not is not something I want to get into.

Killing the Guard: This is a little trickier. You could probably justify his action either way.

Bloody Message to Miko: Yeah, this is where I see where Hinjo's coming from. If the imprisonment was illegal, then Belkar probably had a duty to escape. However, staying behind to get into a dramatic fight with your captor is not escaping.

[2 Eyed Cyclops]

QFT. This is what it all boils down to: In the absence of a magistrate, Hinjo is the law. Belkar was sentenced in court-martial.
Of course, the kidnapping is another issue, but that could present some serious complications, too: What court would have jurisdiction in the matter and the willingness to cross the ruler of Azure City?

The answer, is none.

[Emperor Demonking]

After escaping from being kidnapped, Belkar tried to stop Miko from being able to kidnap again, without killing her. What's wrong with that.

I agree that Hinjo implied he was given the larger sentance because of one of Hinjo's advisers actions.

[Lizard Lord]

I think the increase to the six year sentence was wrong. To present my view, I'd like to bring up a hypothetical example to compare what Hinjo did.

Let's say an accused has pled guilty to a crime of Assault (the actual crime doesn't really matter). In sentencing, the judge, in delivering a sentence of 5 years, and asks the convicted person if he understands the sentence. The prisoner (stupidly) responds to the effect of: "Whatever. When I get out, I'll probably considering doing it again." Should the judge then be justified to be able to increase the sentence based on that statement alone?



Yes
I truly think he should. This guy clearly considers the minimum punishment that comes with pleading guilty nothing more then a slap on the wrist and he should get more then that. He shouldn't get away with doing the crime over and over again with what he thinks is virtually little consequences.

[hewhosaysfish]

Yes
I truly think he should. This guy clearly considers the minimum punishment that comes with pleading guilty nothing more then a slap on the wrist and he should get more then that. He shouldn't get away with doing the crime over and over again with what he thinks is virtually little consequences.

I do recall a (unverified) story about a convict who announced, on hearing his sentence, "I'll do that spinning on my ****!" and had the sentence doubled...

And although everybody is probably getting sick of comparisons to hpothetical scenarios, I feel the need to wade into the fray with one of my own:

1) Suppose I've done something of which the law normally disapproves (e.g I've been invloved in some violence, maybe even killed someone).
2) There are some mitigating circumstances (e.g self defense)
3) Men in suits and waving guns surround me. There is much shouting, a scuffle, I am forcibly restrained, someone gets a kick in the fork. Someone else produces a badge.
4) I discover that my captors are working for a bona fide law-enforcement body and apprehended me so dramatically because they believe me to be a violent criminal.
5) Confident that I am not in the hands of dangerous lunatics, I put forward a case that I am not a dangerous lunatic.
6) My "captors" still insist on bringing me in for due process but are sufficiently convinced to neave off the cuffs and allow to ride in the front a squad car rather than the back of a van. They seem rather chargrinned and do not mention that one of them got a kick in the fork.
7) As these men have legitamate reasons to bring me in and I'm confident I can explain everything, I agree to come quietly.
8) During the journey, my conversation with the officer driving reveals that he is a bit of a **** and I decide this is sufficient reason to forget all about any charges or laws or crimes that may have been mentioned thus far. I tell him so and calmy exit the vehicle while it stopped at lights.
9) I am promptly recaptured, cuffed and placed in more secure transport back to the clink.
10) While in a cell, a momentary lapse in security gives me a chance to kill a police officer and flee. I take it but am subsequently recaptured.
11) I am found not guilty of the original charges.

To what extend should I be held accountable for the death of the officer in point 10?

[MReav]

Also, Am I the only one who thinks Belkar wasn't out of line killing the guard. it was, after all, within his rights to escape, and if escaping his immedeit captivity was all that securing his freedom required then knocking the guard out might have been preferable, but belkar was not in such Ideal conditions.
He did'nt know how long the guard woud stay out, or howfar he would have to run. and as for stay, his clash with Miko aside, he had a right, if not a duty to stay and help his friends escape with him.

Except that he wasn't trying to do that. Belkar probably wanted to kill Miko, but when he had her at his mercy (which I think is the result of storyline mechanics, not game mechanics, given how much punishment Miko took in the Redcloak fight), he seemed to change his mind and proceeded to aim to get her to Fall. He wasn't trying to escape though, nor help his friends escape, because it is grossly out of character for Belkar to do so, and he flat out admitted some of the crap he was aiming to do.


As for his altercation with Miko, IF he were trying to kill her it might be justified as securing his escape (she caught him once) he wasn't trying to kill her, even going so far as to give her a potion to keep her alive, so all you can really accuse him of is "annoying a... whatever she is" (Officer of the law? Agent of unlawful coercion? Thug? Kiddnapper?).

Actually, Belkar took the potion for his own use, not hers, so mugging is something that could also be added to his laundry list of charges.


so in the end, the implication that Belkar should (and I mean should in a purely legal sense) spend even on hour, never mind one year, in Azure city's prison is a gross affront to the concept of law, or rule of law. even if he is a bad person and in some abstract sense deserves to be punished

Fine, then Azure City should instead extradite him to a place he HAS committed numerous capital offenses, and so he could be punished there.

[Wrecan]

Let's say an accused has pled guilty to a crime of Assault (the actual crime doesn't really matter). In sentencing, the judge, in delivering a sentence of 5 years, and asks the convicted person if he understands the sentence. The prisoner (stupidly) responds to the effect of: "Whatever. When I get out, I'll probably considering doing it again." Should the judge then be justified to be able to increase the sentence based on that statement alone?
Yes. And judges do that all the time. Despite what many people on this thread seem to think, a judge's determination is not a mathematical formula. The judge is supposed to use his... [gasp] ... judgment to determine what sentence is just. if a convict volunteers information that indicates that a more serious sentence is warranted, it is not only his right to use that information when determining sentence, it is his obligation.

And this isn't just modern jurisprudence. That's what judges have been charged with doing since Hamurabi invented the job in the Bronze Age.


After escaping from being kidnapped, Belkar tried to stop Miko from being able to kidnap again, without killing her. What's wrong with that.
Except that wasn't what he was doing. Actually, if Belkar had succeeded, and Miko had fallen, she might have gone blackguard and would then go on to commit even worse crimes. The idea that Belkar was trying to prevent someone from committing more crimes in the future is nonsensical.

Moreover, it wouldn't be a legal defense. If you find out someone is planning to commit a crime, you don't get to shoot them. And if someone asks you why you killed a man, you don't get acquitted by answering "I found out he got away with kidnapping someone, so I shot him so he wouldn't do it again."

The law of defense (and this dates back to Blackstone in medieval England) is that there must be an "imminent" threat of mortal danger. There was no imminent threat of Miko kidnapping someone else (even if kidnapping was considered "mortal danger", which it isn't).


I agree that Hinjo implied he was given the larger sentance because of one of Hinjo's advisers actions.All he said was that Roy was foolish for highlighting the issue. It is pretty clear that Hinjo hadn't even considered the punishment he was going to give Belkar until at least frame 6 of comic 420 (which is when Belkar reminds Hinjo that he hadn't even been convicted, and Hinjo agrees to send him back to prison to await trial). He sentences him only six frames later! So there was no "increased sentence". Even if Hinjo had considered a minimum sentence, it was only after mere seconds of consideration. it is absurd to expect Hinjo to have to be bound to the sentence he considers off the top of his head.

[BelkarFan]

He never had a four-year sentence. That was merely Roy's assumption. Hinjo never promised to give Belkar the minimum, even to Roy. As far as I can tell, Hinjo had reserved the right to determine the sentence until he had considered the facts. And that's what he did.

I completely agree, but that does not invalidate the point. You cannot just assume that Hinjo's thinking is unanalyzable: his comments make it clear that he considered letting Belkar off with less than a year in prison would be beating the system.

Of course Hinjo was within his rights to give Belkar whatever sentence Hinjo felt was appropriate, but that does not mean the he can give Belkar any sentence at all for any reason and still be committing a good act.

My point is that in this case it really looks like Hinjo gave Belkar 6 years only because he had to give him such a long sentence to counteract the 5 year reduction and keep Belkar in jail. In other words, if Belkar had been given a four year sentence and actually served it, Hinjo would have considered that justice, but because of the deal that was going to let Belkar off, Hinjo chose to raise the sentence to cheat Belkar out of his reward for helping the city.


And there is no indication that absent the conversation, that's what Belkar would have gotten. All Hinjo indicated was that Roy's only chance of getting Belkar no jail time was not revealing their plan in front of the judge in the hopes that he wound't think to subtract five form four.

Of course, I have no proof of what Hinjo was thinking and if he had some better reason for giving Belkar 6 years, then good for him. However, in that case, he probably shouldn't have made that misleading comment.


He never promised to sentence Belkar to the minimum sentence and he never said that was what he would have done without Roy's comments.

He never said it, but he sure suggested it pretty strongly. Hinjo is supposed to give Belkar the sentence he deserves based on the crime that he was charged with and with no consideration for the 5 years that will be taken off the sentence. Belkar's going to earn those 5 years. It's possible that Hinjo did that, in which case Belkar got what he deserved.

But in that case, why on earth would Hinjo have made the comment that he made? It wasn't true: Roy's explanation to Belkar had no effect on the sentence (or at least, it certainly should not have had an effect.)


Did you read the comic? Clearly, Roy was planning to get Belkar off by trickery. That's why he said "Aw, crap" when he realized he revealed his plan in front of Hinjo.

I read it and I saw the exact opposite of what you are describing. Roy did not say "Aw, crap" after Hinjo made his clever remark, Roy said it when Belkar was sentenced. Therefore, Roy was not complaining that his 'trickery' was foiled, he was complaining because he believed that Belkar did not deserve to get such a long sentence.

Roy was hoping that Belkar would be released, and he wasn't. Therefore, "Aw, crap." That has nothing to do with Roy being tricky or trying to beat the system. Roy would have said that even if he were just looking for justice.

When Hinjo explains the reasons for the larger-then-expected sentence, Roy just frowns and stays silent for the rest of the strip. I imagine he is thinking much the same as I am about Hinjo, abusing his power to get a jab at Roy for talking as if Hinjo were not in the room


Even Lawful Good characters sometimes get by on trickery.

But in this case all Roy ever did was get Belkar two justly deserved breaks and expect Hinjo to behave justly. Roy should probably have looked at Hinjo as a young Shojo.

[Wrecan]

I completely agree, but that does not invalidate the point. You cannot just assume that Hinjo's thinking is unanalyzable: his comments make it clear that he considered letting Belkar off with less than a year in prison would be beating the system.
Actually, he made no such statement. That's your assumption. Seven frames before he sentenced Belkar he hadn't even remembered that Belkar wasn't convicted of a crime!

The idea that Hinjo had thought about giving Belkar only four years is absurd because Hinjo totally forgot that Belkar needed to be sentenced at all.


Of course Hinjo was within his rights to give Belkar whatever sentence Hinjo felt was appropriate, but that does not mean the he can give Belkar any sentence at all for any reason and still be committing a good act.No, but it does mean he can give any sentence within a reasonable range.


My point is that in this case it really looks like Hinjo gave Belkar 6 years only because he had to give him such a long sentence to counteract the 5 year reduction and keep Belkar in jail.And I think that's an ad hoc justification because you don't like Hinjo.


he probably shouldn't have made that misleading comment.What misleading comment? That Roy shouldn't have admitted his deceptive plan in front of the guy he was going to deceive? That doesn't mean Hinjo had made a decision in the two frames between Hinjo remembering he had to sentence Belkar and Roy revealing his plan.


He never said it, but he sure suggested it pretty strongly. Hinjo is supposed to give Belkar the sentence he deserves based on the crime that he was charged with and with no consideration for the 5 years that will be taken off the sentence. Belkar's going to earn those 5 years. It's possible that Hinjo did that, in which case Belkar got what he deserved.I think this whole complaint requires an astounding leap of logic. Mainly, that in a mere two frames, Hinjo decided to allow Belkar to go free, but than changed his mind to prevent Roy from manipulating him, when the more reasonable reading is that Hinjo had not made a decision at all in those two tiny frames (which likely occupied less than six seconds), but once reminded by Roy that any sentence he chose would be reduced by five years, he took all facts into account.


But in that case, why on earth would Hinjo have made the comment that he made? It wasn't true: Roy's explanation to Belkar had no effect on the sentence (or at least, it certainly should not have had an effect.)Because Roy was trying to deceive him and now Hinjo knows it. And Hinjo wanted Roy to know he knew. It seems pretty straightforward and doesn't require you to assume Hinjo is acting underhanded at all.


Roy did not say "Aw, crap" after Hinjo made his clever remark, Roy said it when Belkar was sentenced. Therefore, Roy was not complaining that his 'trickery' was foiledThe fact that Belkar got siz years shows his trickery was foiled! After that, Hinjo was just stating the obvious.


he was complaining because he believed that Belkar did not deserve to get such a long sentence.What? Roy knows Belkar is a murderous psychopath. He acts out of loyalty not any illusion that Belkar is a decent sort. The last frame of the strip should have made that abundantly clear.


But in this case all Roy ever did was get Belkar two justly deserved breaks and expect Hinjo to behave justly.If that was true, then Roy would have explained it to Shojo rather than being so underhanded. Roy tells belkar he "convinced" Hinjo to reduce the sentence and that he "looked up" the mnimum sentence for voluntary manslaughter on his own. Everything Roy says in this strip indicates he was trying to trick Hinjo. His behavior was not that of an honest man.

I think we need to agree to disagree on this.

[Squark]

Numbered points are arguments I will attempt to refute.

1. Belkar was falsely imprisoned.
Not so. The OotS WERE guilty of 'weakening the fabric of the universe'. Find the Haley Compilation Thread and read the translations for #284 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0284.html). The fact that Shojo never intended to punish them for it is irrelevant. He could have, both Lawfully and Goodly, have had the OotS imprisoned for life or whatever the punishment for such a momentous crime is.
And regardless, you can be arrested for crimes you did not commit--the whole point of a trial is to ensure that you really did commit the crimes you are accused of. Belkar WAS guilty of the crime he was accused of, and got off with the freedom to do anything except commit murder rather than a jail sentence. Seems pretty lenient to me.
2. Belkar was completely justified in killing the guard.
See above. You're not allowed to kill a police officer at a jail, even if you're wrongly accused, which Belkar was not. Even if wrongly convicted, it's not allowed. The only illegal act Shojo committed concerning the OotS was tampering with the verdict of their trial--something they should be damned grateful he did.
3. Hinjo wrongly increased the sentence.
4 years is the MINIMUM. Do I need to define that for you, or can you look it up for yourselves? And regardless, I don't think Hinjo would have objected if Belkar had changed his plea back to Not Guilty. Also, as someone stated above me, the judge is not at all required to honor agreements between defense and prosecution--though he is required to allow the defendant to change his plea in that case if he so desires.
And regardless, Belkar IS STILL GETTING OFF WITH ONLY A YEAR IN PRISON RATHER THAN FOUR. Assuming he would have gotten only 4 in the first place.

Hinjo likey reduced the charges to Manslaugher in the first place because of Roy's contributions to the city, meaning Belkar might have been going down for 10 years+.

While I personally think Hinjo was in the right;

a) I challenge you to find a law that says "Thou shall not weaken the fabric of the universe". There is one on Mechanus, but this wasn't mechanus arresting them, was it?
b) Even if the Azure City does have a law that say such, Belkar is not a citizen of the Azure City, did not commit said crime within the boundries of the crime, and there has been no (to my knowledge) Geneva Convention type ruling about weakening the fabric of the universe.

[GoC]

Seriously, he should put on a gas mask and biohazard suit, get in touch with the lawyers who've been in the strip on and off again, and sue hinjo and azure city for screwming him over.

First off, he's dragged there illegally, which is kidnapping. He'd held inlegally, he escapes and is then charged with murder. NOW, he's given a sentence with is HARSHER than the normal cntence for the so-called 'crime" he comitted?

FOUL! Get some lawyers in here!

Also he should sue AC for the actions of it's leader, shojo. AC resources were used to wrong him, and not that little prick hinjo acts like he has no respinsibility for it.

BTW, I lost all respect for hinjo and hope belkar sticks it to him somehow. AFAIC hinjo is just a smug little jerk now.
Is my sarcasm meter broken?:smallconfused:

Belkar is a mass murderer and could have been executed.

[WarriorTribble]

a) I challenge you to find a law that says "Thou shall not weaken the fabric of the universe". There is one on Mechanus, but this wasn't mechanus arresting them, was it?
b) Even if the Azure City does have a law that say such, Belkar is not a citizen of the Azure City, did not commit said crime within the boundries of the crime, and there has been no (to my knowledge) Geneva Convention type ruling about weakening the fabric of the universe.Weaking the fabric of a reality can be filed under "attempt to harm a group/tribe/city/nation", and everyone has laws for that. As another person mentioned the OOTS were in no mans land. Any government could arbitrarily enforce their laws on them.

[Lizard Lord]

While I personally think Hinjo was in the right;

a) I challenge you to find a law that says "Thou shall not weaken the fabric of the universe". There is one on Mechanus, but this wasn't mechanus arresting them, was it?
b) Even if the Azure City does have a law that say such, Belkar is not a citizen of the Azure City, did not commit said crime within the boundries of the crime, and there has been no (to my knowledge) Geneva Convention type ruling about weakening the fabric of the universe.

They explained how they could arrest Belkar even though he has never been to Azure City before then. Right Here: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0267.html

Since in this world the existence of gods is an undeniable fact I am quite certain that almost all nations have a strict "What the gods say goes" policy. Think of the gods’ laws as laws that are spread out throughout the world. And of course when "Weakening the fabric of the universe" is quite possible (though still fairly difficult to pull of) it will be against the law.

[Lizard Lord]

Also are there really people who believe someone should get off 100% punishment free for murdering a lawful officer of the city who believed the prisoner to be a dangerous criminal (a belief fully enforced by the blade piercing the guards flesh)? (And no I don't consider letting him kill more things a punishment (sure it is in the defense of the city, but it is still not a punishment for a homicidal maniac. I mean what kind of punishment is it for a killer to kill more people?). Maybe he might have gotten a lighter sentence because he was found guilty (which might explain why Belkar was charged for voluntary manslaughter instead of murder 2 like he thought he would) but some kind of punishment is called for especially when you consider the main excuses he might use for trying to escape.

1. His personal feelings towards a lawful member of the system that held him (in this case Miko).
2. He lost confidence in the justice system. (For now I will ignore the fact that Belkar doesn't give a crap for the justice system.)
3. He believed himself to be guilty (which the Order did) but did not wish to stay in jail anyways.

None of these are excuses for killing a guard while trying to escape. I mean other then doing his job to hold a potentially leatha criminal, what wrong did that guard do to Belkar?

What if you had a family member that was a prison guard whose fate ended the same as Belkar's victim? Then would you think that it would be all right the criminal to walk away just because he was found not guilty of the crime he was arrested for?

[BelkarFan]

Once reminded by Roy that any sentence he chose would be reduced by five years, he took all facts into account.

That may sound like a just and good way for a judge to behave, but it is actually pretty underhanded.

Judges are not supposed to take all the facts into account, they are supposed to ignore any facts that are not related to the crime for which they are sentencing. Specifically, it would be unethical for Hinjo to give Belkar a greater sentence because Belkar's sentence is about to be reduced. The reduction of Belkar's sentence is no fault of Belkar's.


Because Roy was trying to deceive him and now Hinjo knows it. And Hinjo wanted Roy to know he knew. It seems pretty straightforward and doesn't require you to assume Hinjo is acting underhanded at all.

But it does require you to assume that Roy was trying to deceive Hinjo and he wasn't thinking as I am, that lawfully Belkar deserves to not be in prison. Of course, Roy knows that Belkar is a little monster, but Roy also thinks that he's got control of that.

Roy's plan to get Belkar released was not intended as trickery, or at the very least we have no direct evidence that it was. What I see is Roy's lawful side trying to find a lawful and just way to get Belkar out of prison where he can go back to fighting Xykon for the good of everyone.


If that was true, then Roy would have explained it to Shojo rather than being so underhanded.

Why should Roy have told Hinjo? Hinjo's only job was to do what was just and lawful. Roy thought he had figured out what was just and lawful and therefore what he could expect from Hinjo. There's no way Roy could have expected that he would have to tell Hinjo how to do his job.


Roy tells belkar he "convinced" Hinjo to reduce the sentence and that he "looked up" the mnimum sentence for voluntary manslaughter on his own.

Why are you putting those words in quotes? That's exactly what Roy did. I cannot see why people seem to think there is something underhanded or wrong with doing those things.


Everything Roy says in this strip indicates he was trying to trick Hinjo. His behavior was not that of an honest man.

Actually, Roy has been entirely straight-forward in this strip. I think he really believed that the deal he arranged for Belkar was good and lawful and just and that there was no reason to hide it. I might be wrong, but there is no evidence in this strip to contradict my theory.

The only person who said anything to suggest that Roy was trying to trick Hinjo was Hinjo himself and that comment seems totally unfounded.

[Professor Tanhauser]

Is my sarcasm meter broken?:smallconfused:

Belkar is a mass murderer and could have been executed.
"Murderer"? For killing gobbos in a dongeon? Hell,roy was decapitating sleeping gobbos in the same dungeon, so I guess he's a murderer too.

[tanonev]

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0133.html

[MReav]

"Murderer"? For killing gobbos in a dongeon? Hell,roy was decapitating sleeping gobbos in the same dungeon, so I guess he's a murderer too.

A. Belkar killed goblins who surrendered, which is tantamount to murder.

B. Yes, Roy is one for doing that.

C. Read Origin of PCs.

D. 125 "All I wanted was to grow up to be a big strong adventurer and go out into the world where I could be accepted. And then, some day, I could return to my home village... and brutally murder them all in their dreamless sleep".

[Alakallanar]

No, but for killing more than a dozen people in OtOoPC.

[Nightmarenny]

"Murderer"? For killing gobbos in a dongeon? Hell,roy was decapitating sleeping gobbos in the same dungeon, so I guess he's a murderer too.
My god. Do you not not read others posts? Or is this stupid thing just vague to waste everyones time? How many times has this stuff been explained to you by various members of the forum? How many times will you bring up broken arguements?

1.Belkar killed Barbarians.
2.Killed surrendering Goblins
3.Killed that guard

[Professor Tanhauser]

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0133.html

Those were mercy killings!:smallbiggrin:

[Professor Tanhauser]

My god. Do you not not read others posts? Or is this stupid thing just vague to waste everyones time? How many times has this stuff been explained to you by various members of the forum? How many times will you bring up broken arguements?

1.Belkar killed Barbarians.
2.Killed surrendering Goblins
3.Killed that guard

Um, what do goblins do to people who surrender to them? observe the geneva convention?

[TOAOMT]

Roy was being underhanded, that he was. Was he being evil? No. Was he being Chaotic? Not necessarily, since he was manipulating the law rather than slighting it.

Hinjo was not acting as a lawful neutral pure judge. He was acting as a Lawful Good person who was trying to protect the law from loopholes.

Are either of them particularly in the wrong? I don't think so. Were either of them particularly in the right? Not so much. Roy was looking out for a party member and Hinjo was making an important statement: "Do not try to undermine the law." They were still being underhanded and spiteful respectively.

Hinjo had a certain level of faith in Roy. And Roy said right in front of Hinjo (who he thought couldn't hear him, probably because it was Player to Player conversation that the DM saw as PC to PC conversation out of necessity) "Don't you get it? I've totally tricked Hinjo!" to paraphrase. Hinjo hears this and makes the point of "Wow... guess I've got to show you that being underhanded won't work." Hinjo may have decided to let Belkar off, but he was NOT going to let himself be manipulated.

[Callos_DeTerran]

Shojo has no jurisdiction over Belkar, and had to commit a crime to get him into Azure City. Please explain how it's wrong to try to escape someone that's kidnapping you? Just because they use a government body to do it doesn't change the scenario, it actually makes it worse. Shojo made Belkar's jailor complicit with, and therefore party to kidnapping.


Okay, I know I should probably read the rest of the thread before saying my piece but I'm really annoyed that you believe thats a valid defense. Shojo does have jurisdiction over Belkar because Shojo is one of many charged with defending the gates, which Belkar had a hand in destroying one(By assosciation if nothing else. We all know he probably would have pressed the rune himself just to see the explosion because of his short attention span), and Shojo found it out. So the charges weren't false and the jurisidiction wasn't false either. It wasn't Shojo's specific gate that was destroyed but their sworn to defend ALL of the gates and just put in charge of specific ones.

And it wasn't even a kidnapping! Miko did attack first, but it was just a battle to the OotS and Miko until the Smite-evil-find-out-kung-fu-chick-is-a-paladin incident. Then Belkar WILLINGLY decided to travel with her, after hearing the charges against him, in an attempt to make her fall by just traveling with him. It was only once he got fed up with her attitude, her horse, and her general existence that he joined in with all of the others when they refused to keep following Miko to Azure City. At that point you add another charge, assaulting a lawful officer and enforcer of a sacred order (Which doesn't require him to be a citizen of Azure City) and an officer of Azure City (Which there aren't laws for diplomatic immunity, or whatever you call being unable to arrest someone because their in another country) so he can still be brought in for that. There was absolutely nothing false about the entire business except for Shojo's rigged trial. There wasn't even kidnapping, it lawful arrest.

[Professor Tanhauser]

Okay, I know I should probably read the rest of the thread before saying my piece but I'm really annoyed that you believe thats a valid defense. Shojo does have jurisdiction over Belkar because Shojo is one of many charged with defending the gates, which Belkar had a hand in destroying one(By assosciation if nothing else. We all know he probably would have pressed the rune himself just to see the explosion because of his short attention span), and Shojo found it out. So the charges weren't false and the jurisidiction wasn't false either. It wasn't Shojo's specific gate that was destroyed but their sworn to defend ALL of the gates and just put in charge of specific ones.

And it wasn't even a kidnapping! Miko did attack first, but it was just a battle to the OotS and Miko until the Smite-evil-find-out-kung-fu-chick-is-a-paladin incident. Then Belkar WILLINGLY decided to travel with her, after hearing the charges against him, in an attempt to make her fall by just traveling with him. It was only once he got fed up with her attitude, her horse, and her general existence that he joined in with all of the others when they refused to keep following Miko to Azure City. At that point you add another charge, assaulting a lawful officer and enforcer of a sacred order (Which doesn't require him to be a citizen of Azure City) and an officer of Azure City (Which there aren't laws for diplomatic immunity, or whatever you call being unable to arrest someone because their in another country) so he can still be brought in for that. There was absolutely nothing false about the entire business except for Shojo's rigged trial. There wasn't even kidnapping, it lawful arrest.


Except that you can't arrest someone who isn't subject to your laws and isn't in your juristdiction.

I mean, if I criticize the government of a (unnamed) foreign country for repressing women any denying freedom of speech, religion or politics to it's citizens, I'm breaking their law but they can't send a cop to america to arrest me for it.

At least not yet, but give some people a few more years....

[Callos_DeTerran]

Except that you can't arrest someone who isn't subject to your laws and isn't in your juristdiction.

But thats just it. Belkar WAS in Shojo's jurisdiction. He was quite clearly in the Sapphire Guard's jurisdiction, which the twelve gods acknowledge as being right. And you know they do because if they didn't then all of the Sapphire Guard would be beige. This falls under the same lines that someone who destroyed a church of Pelor (And killed every priest and worshiper in the building) in a distant country with no laws about murder could STILL be brought to trial by the Church of Pelor for crimes against that specific church. Belkar broke the Sapphire's Guards laws about defending the gate and they brought him to trial for it.


I mean, if I criticize the government of a (unnamed) foreign country for repressing women any denying freedom of speech, religion or politics to it's citizens, I'm breaking their law but they can't send a cop to america to arrest me for it.

At least not yet, but give some people a few more years....

I'm not trying to be rude here, but you might want to avoid comments like these in the future. Your coming very close to violating a rule, just be careful about comments like this alright?

[tanonev]

Except that you can't arrest someone who isn't subject to your laws and isn't in your juristdiction.

I mean, if I criticize the government of a (unnamed) foreign country for repressing women any denying freedom of speech, religion or politics to it's citizens, I'm breaking their law but they can't send a cop to america to arrest me for it.

At least not yet, but give some people a few more years....

But if you hack into a government computer of that foreign country and initiate self-destruct sequences of various important facilities, provided they have some way of finding out who you are, you're most likely going to have to answer to some foreign cops (or foreign assassins, depending on what kind of a country they are).

Also, your example is flawed in that you are protected by virtue of being in America and subject to America's laws (and military influence). If you happened to be in, say, Antarctica at the time (unfortunately, modern Earth is a little lacking in places outside the jurisdiction of a nation), it would certainly be in their power to send some people after you. (Why you would go to Antarctica to speak out about a foreign nation's practices is a different matter :smalltongue:) And that's exactly what happened to OotS: they were in an area under no control by any nation. Like you said, there's no Geneva Convention; if you're in uncontrolled territory, anything goes. (By the way, just to be clear, I'm just reusing his use of "America"; this argument would apply to any nation; you could replace it with "Tyrinaria" or "Gaul" or "Daath" if we need to be PC.)

And again, OotS AGREED to go with Miko. When they finally changed their minds, it had nothing to do with the principle of the matter and everything to do with them finally getting fed up with Miko as a person.

[Wrecan]

That may sound like a just and good way for a judge to behave, but it is actually pretty underhanded.
Something can't be "just and good" and "underhanded". Hinjo didn't do anything underhanded at all. He made a sentence based on the facts he had at the time of sentencing. There's nothing underhanded about it.


Judges are not supposed to take all the facts into account, they are supposed to ignore any facts that are not related to the crime for which they are sentencing.
What? That is absolutely utterly false. It is not true in any jurisdiction in the world, in all time. Ever. I don't knwo where you get this idea but it is absolutely false.

A judge can absolutely consider whether he believes the plea arrangement was made to avoid responsibility or punishment. Judges do this all the time and they always have. Your are quite simply wrong.


Specifically, it would be unethical for Hinjo to give Belkar a greater sentence because Belkar's sentence is about to be reduced.
There is nothign unethical about it. There never has been. It was Belkar's fault for agreeing to the reduction before he found out what his sentence is. Actually, as Roy's advocate, the blame lies entirely with him.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with Hinjo considering the fact that Belkar would get a reduced sentence when determining the sentence to give him.


The reduction of Belkar's sentence is no fault of Belkar's.
So what? Belkar agreed to be sentenced (and Roy allowed him to agree to be sentenced) after agreeing to a five year reduction. There is nothing unethical about a judge considering the fact that they will get a reduced sentence when determining what that sentence should be.

Judges do it all the time. Had Roy consulted Celia before engaging in this endeavor, she would have told him this.


But it does require you to assume that Roy was trying to deceive Hinjo and he wasn't thinking as I am, that lawfully Belkar deserves to not be in prison. Of course, Roy knows that Belkar is a little monster, but Roy also thinks that he's got control of that.
How can Roy think a little monster doesn't deserve to be in prison? When did Roy ever express anything of the sort? On the contrary, he has expressly state the only reason he is defending Belkar is out of team loyalty.


Why should Roy have told Hinjo?
So as to prevent Hinjo from throwing Belkar in prison after all was said and done. That's the way forthright and lawful people are supposed to act.


There's no way Roy could have expected that he would have to tell Hinjo how to do his job.The problem is that Roy gave Belkar legal advice without understanding how Hinjo's job operates.


I cannot see why people seem to think there is something underhanded or wrong with doing those things.
It was underhanded because Roy didn't talk to Hinjo about Belkar getting the minimum sentence or why Belkar should get no jail time. He hoped Hinjo would just give him zero years.


Actually, Roy has been entirely straight-forward in this strip. I think he really believed that the deal he arranged for Belkar
He didn't "arrange" for Belkar to get no jail time. He arranged for Belkar to get five years off a sentence for voluntary manslaughter. That's what Belkar got.

The minimum sentence for voluntary manslaughter is four years. Belkar is going to serve one year.

Roy hopes Belkar would get no time, but if he never actually "arranged" that deal. He certainly could have, by asking Hinjo to apply the minimum sentence. But he didn't. The fault there lies with Roy.


The only person who said anything to suggest that Roy was trying to trick Hinjo was Hinjo himself and that comment seems totally unfounded.

Why didn't Roy arrange ahead of time for Belkar to receive no jail time? WHy didn't he ask Hinjo to apply the minimum sentence to Belkar on voluntary manslaughter, and to then apply the five-year reduction to that? Clearly, Roy never made such a deal. He just got the crime brought down to something that could have, in Hinjo's discretion led to no jail time. But there was no such agreement. The only explanation for the lapse is that Roy is a moron or that Roy was being deceitful. I don't believe Roy to be a moron.

[Wrecan]

Except that you can't arrest someone who isn't subject to your laws and isn't in your juristdiction.
Tell than to Manuel Noriega (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manuel_Noriega) the former dictator of Panama currently sitting in a federal prison for drug trafficking, despite never having set foot in the United States.

Or Augusto Pinochet (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pinochet#Arrest_and_trial), former President of Chile, arrested in the UK under a Spanish warrant, even though he committed no crimes in the territory of the UK or Spain.

Nations arrest people who take no actions in the nation itself all the time. Sometimes there is a protest and the person is returned. Sometimes not. It does not appear the Kingdom of Nowhere has protested the arrest of Belkar by Azure City's paladin.


I mean, if I criticize the government of a (unnamed) foreign country for repressing women any denying freedom of speech, religion or politics to it's citizens, I'm breaking their law but they can't send a cop to america to arrest me for it.
Well, they can try. Practical considerations might prevent them, however.

[MReav]

Furthermore, technically, Belkar and crew actually did stuff that threatened the security of Azure City itself (Azure City is in the Universe, isn't it?) Azure City was just defending itself against an unknown threat.

[Porthos]

Professor, a bunch of people have asked you this, and I don't think you have replied. Have you actually read On the Origins of PCs yet? I only wonder because I want to know if you would defend Belkar so heavily and passionately after reading that book. :smalltongue:

[Luvlein]

Thank you, Wrecan. I completely agree with everything you wrote. Reading your posts helps me to keep my sanity (or whatever there may be left of it):smallwink:

[Baalzebub]

Belkar has what he deserves. According to the DM.

[GoC]

"Murderer"? For killing gobbos in a dongeon? Hell,roy was decapitating sleeping gobbos in the same dungeon, so I guess he's a murderer too.

I thought it has been confimed in Origins that he murdered several good/neutral NPCs?

Also, his alignment is evil so they have a right (and a duty) to kill him.

[Luvlein]

No, nobody has a right or duty to kill anybody just because of evil alignment.

Heck, being evil is not even a crime.

Anybody doing things like that is evil, herself.

[WarriorTribble]

I thought it has been confimed in Origins that he murdered several good/neutral NPCs?

Also, his alignment is evil so they have a right (and a duty) to kill him.I'll just note ideally good characters first consider redemption, restraint, then finally after all else fails execution. Course with that said killing evil in cold blood is a-ok with D&D.

[Green Bean]

No, nobody has a right or duty to kill anybody just because of evil alignment.

Heck, being evil is not even a crime.

Anybody doing things like that is evil, herself.

Unfortunately, Belkar qualifies for both of these (evil deeds and alignment)

[Luvlein]

Unfortunately, Belkar qualifies for both of these (evil deeds and alignment)
That is right. I wouldn't have a problem with Belkar being executed for his crimes.
However, I do have a problem with trigger-happy PCs who think a positive 'detect evil' is justification for murder, while considering themselves 'good'.

[kerberos]

Ugh. That's obviously what I meant. Reduced sentences means a release sooner. But equally obviously, none of those people were in prison for life (because you can't be imprisoned for "life-5 years").
You can if you have a good oracle. :smalltongue:

[the_tick_rules]

belkar got off easy. 1 year for how many murders, not bad.

[MReav]

belkar got off easy. 1 year for how many murders, not bad.

Only the one. The others he hasn't been prosecuted for.

[Nightmarenny]

Um, what do goblins do to people who surrender to them? observe the geneva convention?
So? Does that make it ok? Hell no! Goblins kill those that surrender because they are evil, you spare those that surrender because you are good(note before you say anything that the sleeping Gobo's did not surrender and would have come after the order later)

Now lets talk about jurisdiction. THEY. HAVE. IT. Shojo said it himself though the charges are trumped up they have the ability and legality to take anyone that threatens the world. Why? Because they are the earthly champions of the Gods. They are the only ones capable to judge these things because they can summon cestials and such higher plane creatures(those things that serve under god!). Thus they don't so much as judge them but bring them to the Gods.

To judge this by todays standards is foolish. If there is a god he is silent and nothing less of an intire country can treaten the whole world(and if they made the attempt I doubt that other countries would just stand around again and let the world they live in be destroyed)

[Professor Tanhauser]

So? Does that make it ok? Hell no! Goblins kill those that surrender because they are evil, you spare those that surrender because you are good(note before you say anything that the sleeping Gobo's did not surrender and would have come after the order later)

Now lets talk about jurisdiction. THEY. HAVE. IT. Shojo said it himself though the charges are trumped up they have the ability and legality to take anyone that threatens the world. Why? Because they are the earthly champions of the Gods. They are the only ones capable to judge these things because they can summon cestials and such higher plane creatures(those things that serve under god!). Thus they don't so much as judge them but bring them to the Gods.






Suppose belkar isn't a worshipper of their gods? Also if I claim that m,y gods said I could execute you for crimes against them how would you feel?

[MReav]

Suppose belkar isn't a worshipper of their gods? Also if I claim that m,y gods said I could execute you for crimes against them how would you feel?

I wouldn't like it, but if I were a decently high level character, I would have my cleric (quite possibly myself) cast whatever spell that allows me talk with my gods, and find out whether or not you are lying to me.

[Nightmarenny]

Suppose belkar isn't a worshipper of their gods? Also if I claim that m,y gods said I could execute you for crimes against them how would you feel?
God do you even listen? Do you even have common sense?

Their God-Real tangible beings that show up once and awhile and exact control over the world.

Your God-A being that may or may not exist and never takes direct action.

Whether Belkar worships them is non-important. They hold domminion over the world.

Your Gods hold no sway in this world. However if he shows up some day in person and calls me to a fair trial. Than I'll mind it about as much as being accused of a crime in my country.

[kerberos]

Numbered points are arguments I will attempt to refute.

1. Belkar was falsely imprisoned.
Not so. The OotS WERE guilty of 'weakening the fabric of the universe'. Find the Haley Compilation Thread and read the translations for #284 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0284.html). The fact that Shojo never intended to punish them for it is irrelevant. He could have, both Lawfully and Goodly, have had the OotS imprisoned for life or whatever the punishment for such a momentous crime is.

And regardless, you can be arrested for crimes you did not commit--the whole point of a trial is to ensure that you really did commit the crimes you are accused of. Belkar WAS guilty of the crime he was accused of, and got off with the freedom to do anything except commit murder rather than a jail sentence. Seems pretty lenient to me.
Utter nonsense. Belkar was in no shape or form guilty of Weakening the universe.

Let's start with Elan since he is the one who actually did something. Elan is most likely also innocent, judicially speaking, of the charge. Why? because any civilized court system (and most uncivilized ones too) require not only that you cause something for you to be found guilty, but that you either did it intentionally or that you should have been expected to have been able to foresee it(Mens Rea (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mens_rea)).

Now if pieces of the exploding mountain had hit somebody you could say that Elan should have been able to foresee something like that (his extremely limited mental capacity would still mean that proving mens rea would be iffy but still), there is however no way in hell he could possibly have predicted that blowing up the mountain could weaken the fabric of the universe. I'll grant that it is somewhat plausible to argue that he could reasonably have been expected to know something bad could happen based on the warnings on the rune. Not weakening the fabric of the universe perhaps, but something very bad, even if we were to accept this IMO rather weak argument though, it only implicates Elan, not anybody else in the order.

You see the rest of the order are not, despite what people on this thread who apparently have no idea what the word means, accessories to Elan's crime. That is because even were we to accept that Elan was guilty of anything, because they had absolutely no way of knowing that there in the middle of the dungeon would be a self-destruct rune that could weaken the fabric of the universe or that Elan would push it. To be considered an accomplice you must either willingly aid the criminal or, in the US at least, have participated in a crime which lead to another crime, for example if you commit a bank robbery, and one of the robbers commit a murder they can all be convicted I believe. Neither of these conditions applies to the Order though

[Nightmarenny]

Utter nonsense. Belkar was in no shape or form guilty of Weakening the universe.

Let's start with Elan since he is the one who actually did something. Elan is most likely also innocent, judicially speaking, of the charge. Why? because any civilized court system (and most uncivilized ones too) require not only that you cause something for you to be found guilty, but that you either did it intentionally or that you should have been expected to have been able to foresee it(Mens Rea (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mens_rea)).

Now if pieces of the exploding mountain had hit somebody you could say that Elan should have been able to foresee something like that (he could probably till get of by pleading limited mental capacity, but that’s another issue), there is however no way in hell he could possibly have predicted that blowing up the mountain could weaken the fabric of the universe. I'll grant that it is somewhat plausible to argue that he could reasonably have been expected to know something bad could happen based on the warnings on the rune. Not weakening the fabric of the universe perhaps, but something very bad, even if we were to accept this IMO rather weak argument though, it only implicates Elan, not anybody else in the order.

You see the rest of the order are not, despite what people on this thread who apparently have no idea what the word means, accessories to Elan's crime. That is because even were we to accept that Elan was guilty of anything, because they had absolutely no way of knowing that there in the middle of the dungeon would be a self-destruct rune that could weaken the fabric of the universe or that Elan would push it. To be considered an accomplice you must either willingly aid the criminal or, in the US at least, have participated in a crime which lead to another crime, for example if you commit a bank robbery, and one of the robbers commit a murder they can all be convicted I believe. Neither of these conditions applies to the Order though
So no one really commited the act. I wasn't aware all defendants have to be guity now. At what point did the Order move to Cardassian space? The Order was arrested because they were the most likly candidates for destroying the gate, so they get arrested. Kinda like how someone with fingerprints in a room where a murder took place might get arrested as a possible suspect. Its not false imprisonment.

[GoC]

No, nobody has a right or duty to kill anybody just because of evil alignment.

Heck, being evil is not even a crime.

Anybody doing things like that is evil, herself.

Looks like Roy. the entire OotS and every other party of adventurers are evil.

EDIT: I personaly believe that Belkar should have been executed for all his murders.

[Tilian]

Looks like Roy. the entire OotS and every other party of adventurers are evil.

EDIT: I personaly believe that Belkar should have been executed for all his murders.

The OotS(minus Belkar) has only used lethal force on evil foes that have engaged them in violence. It's a sure bet that if they came across any evil-aligned beings that were minding their own business and not being actively evil that the OotS(minus Belkar) would not kill them outright, especially with Roy's preference of not using violence as a first means of response demonstrated in Origin of the PCs.(which also illustrates how "every other party of adventurers" should approach things every now and then, provided they're mostly good aligned)

[Professor Tanhauser]

Say, would killing or imprisoning belkar for life in order to keep him from revealing the truth about shojo and his demise be evil? After all, isn't concealing the truth an evil act?

[MReav]

No, concealing the truth is not necessarily evil. If people's security is at stake, then there's no moral ambiguity for doing what you can to keep it secret.

[Professor Tanhauser]

No, concealing the truth is not necessarily evil. If people's security is at stake, then there's no moral ambiguity for doing what you can to keep it secret.
But don't evil regimes use that rationale to impose censorship on people to keep them in line?

[MReav]

But don't evil regimes use that rationale to impose censorship on people to keep them in line?

May be, but that doesn't make it any less true.

Or do you advocate enemy spies be set free because they're simply utilizing their right to free speech?

[Gri]

But don't evil regimes use that rationale to impose censorship on people to keep them in line?

HAY, don't evil dictators...eat food.

Food=Evil...

Holy ****. Someone stop the bakers!

[kerberos]

So no one really commited the act.
Elan did commit the act, but that's not the same as being guilty of it in a judicial sense of the word. Belkar however didn't even do that.

I wasn't aware all defendants have to be guity now.
I wasn't aware I said any such think.


At what point did the Order move to Cardassian space?
If I actually had watched Star Trek or could be bothered to read the Wiki article on them I might have a clue what you meant by that, but.


The Order was arrested because they were the most likly candidates for destroying the gate, so they get arrested. Kinda like how someone with fingerprints in a room where a murder took place might get arrested as a possible suspect. Its not false imprisonment.
You're moving the goalposts Tigerhunter and some other posters have argued , not simply that the arrest was legitimate, nut that Belkar was actually guilty. The arrest could be legitimate even though Belkar is clearly innocent (of that particular crime at least), but then again escape could be legitimate even if the arrest was legitimate(though that is a highly contestable point) . I haven't commented on that though, because even if we could plausibly argue that Belkar could have been justified in taking at least some of the actions he did take (and I think you can), that would have to involve attributing motives to him that he clearly didn't have.

[Cifer]

a) I challenge you to find a law that says "Thou shall not weaken the fabric of the universe". There is one on Mechanus, but this wasn't mechanus arresting them, was it?Oh, that one is easy.
The Laws and Ordnances of Azure City, §13 (Weakening the Fabric of the Universe), (1): "Guilty of weakening the fabric of the Universe are those who release or try to release magical forces beyond the scope outlayed in §74(4) without explicit permission by authority."

You really think a nation with mid-level wizards and clerics wouldn't have those?


b) Even if the Azure City does have a law that say such, Belkar is not a citizen of the Azure City, did not commit said crime within the boundries of the crime, and there has been no (to my knowledge) Geneva Convention type ruling about weakening the fabric of the universe.As Lizard said "The gods say it's a crime" probably counts for a lot in a city like Azure as well as the rest of the world, especially since destroying the world somehow is everyone's business.

@Kerberos
Well, about those goalposts, please correct me if I'm wrong...
-You said Belkar is innocent of Weakening The Fabric Of The Universe
-Nightmarenny said that's irrelevant because that isn't what he's convicted of at the moment (he was judged innocent about the Fabric business)

[kerberos]

@Kerberos
Well, about those goalposts, please correct me if I'm wrong...
-You said Belkar is innocent of Weakening The Fabric Of The Universe
-Nightmarenny said that's irrelevant because that isn't what he's convicted of at the moment (he was judged innocent about the Fabric business)
I don't think Nightmare said any such thing, but if he did he is wrong since Belkars innocence is clearly relevant to the thread. Just take a look at the OP.

[Porthos]

Say, would killing or imprisoning belkar for life in order to keep him from revealing the truth about shojo and his demise be evil? After all, isn't concealing the truth an evil act?

A) Hinjo, O-Chul, et all, have concealed the exact facts over Shojo's death from their troops.

B) Hinjo, O-Chul, et all, are Paladins.

C) If a Paladin commits a single evil act, they Fall.

D) Hinjo. O-Chul, et all, have not Fallen.

Ergo,

E) Concealing the truth about Lord Shojo's death is not an evil act.

QED. :smallbiggrin:

Now, I'm not saying it's good. That's a whole 'nother discussion. :smallwink: But concealing the truth is not the same as lying. After all, any Paladin worth his or her salt knows how to deal with the whole "lying" situation:

Random NPC: Hey, Hinjo.... How did Shojo really die?
Hinjo: I'm sorry Random NPC, I don't have time to discuss this right now, maybe after the battle is over we'll have time for it.

Now that is not a lie (and in fact, it is entirely true), but it is concealing the truth. And, as I showed above, that is a not a Fallworthy event. :smallsmile:

[Callos_DeTerran]

I don't think Nightmare said any such thing, but if he did he is wrong since Belkars innocence is clearly relevant to the thread. Just take a look at the OP.

It may BE relevant, but that doesn't mean he IS innocent. Belkar, no matter how much you may hate to admit it, was not 'kidnapped'. He chose to follow a legal officer, and THEN was arrested for assaulting that very same agent.

The only thing fake was the trial for his charges, not the charges themselves, and it may be a bit late but no one has a 'right' to escape from jail. Innocent or no. He may have had a fake trial for a crime he committed but he MADE himself guilty of another one while waiting for the first one.

[Tokiko Mima]

What I think is getting lost in here is that you can't treat Belkar like he's rational. Yes, he obeys what Roy says, usually, and yes he is capable of speech, but he's more like a very clever animal than a fully sentient being. If given an opening, he kills and he doesn't have the capacity to regret his actions afterwards and lacks any compunction to stop.

Shojo demanded his capture because he wanted Belkar and his companions to work for him, but not to simply ask. He did it in such a way as to make his invitation impossible to refuse by sending his strongest Paladin. This implies at least some understanding of the combined capacities of the OotS, and partly of Belkar.

When you force someone into your territory like that, it's unreasonable for them to expect them to respect your laws. It's a little ridiculous to expect someone like Belkar to follow any laws (Umm.. Chaotic much?), but especially with the flippant way he's been treated by the AC judicial system thus far. It's only been used as a way to punish, manipulate, and remove his rights and appear legitimate at the same time.

Besides, honestly what has AC ever done for Belkar that he should follow or respect their laws in the first place? If Miko had slain/injured Belkar on the way to AC, do you think there would have been a trial or any redress for him? Would Miko have to pay to have him raised? I'm thinking not. He's just a foreign barbarian with an insane psychotic streak, little different from a monster that adventurers kill by the bushel. Azure City doesn't protect him and it's not going to pay him either (it's taking away his treasure to pay to have the guard raised.) Why does he have to accept a countries legal obligations or respect their judgements at all?

So Hinjo can act all noble and 'it's not my responsibility since that was my uncle that broke the law' but that's an admission than Belkar's crime (and he has committed only one) was mostly perpetrated by Shojo's carelessness and disregard for the law. Belkar did nothing that Shojo and Miko could not have reasonably predicted would happen, and could have *easily* prevented.

So if you wanna convict Belkar of being an agent of murder, fine. Just remember who brought him to Azure City, put him in that pit, didn't search him effectively first, and assured that proper precautions weren't taken; because that wasn't Belkar, but the real premediated murderer.

[tanonev]

When you force someone into your territory like that, it's unreasonable for them to expect them to respect your laws. It's a little ridiculous to expect someone like Belkar to follow any laws (Umm.. Chaotic much?), but especially with the flippant way he's been treated by the AC judicial system thus far.

If it's ridiculous to expect Belkar to follow any laws, then what's the point of granting him any protection under the law? And as far as I can tell, the judicial system has been treating Belkar very fairly. Miko hasn't, but as we have seen, Miko was well on her way out of the judicial system.


Besides, honestly what has AC ever done for Belkar that he should follow or respect their laws in the first place?

Saved him 5000 gp? (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0409.html)


So if you wanna convict Belkar of being an agent of murder, fine. Just remember who brought him to Azure City, put him in that pit, didn't search him effectively first, and assured that proper precautions weren't taken; because that wasn't Belkar, but the real premediated murderer.

Thief accused of stealing from a store: "It was the manager's fault! He tripped on a box behind the counter, allowing me to take something while he couldn't see me! He's the real thief!"
Serial killer: "My parents gave birth to me! It's their fault!"
Now THAT's a perverted system of justice.

But I'll humor you for a moment. So your accusation traces back to Miko. If she was "the real premediated (sic) murderer", then she should have fallen the moment the guard died. But she didn't. Therefore by reason of the contrapositive, she was NOT considered responsible for the murder by the powers that be (which I need to repeat are the gods as created by the Giant, NOT some reader who posts on the forums).
"It appears not everyone agrees with your analysis."

In any case, didn't someone mention that a sufficiently "effective" search could have required massive violations of Belkar's personal body?


It's only been used as a way to punish, manipulate, and remove his rights and appear legitimate at the same time.

You've been talking about rights for a very long time now. Explain to me what rights are granted in the OotS world. If I recall correctly, those are much more limited than in the real world. I mean, they don't even get the right to free will; what the Giant says goes.

[Professor Tanhauser]

Not telling the truth for a good reason in one thing. Imprisoning someone for life (thereby taking their life) to keep the truth concealed is another.

Also, if shojo wasn't a paladin he couldn't have fallen.

[Wrecan]

What I think is getting lost in here is that you can't treat Belkar like he's rational.
Who is treatign Belkar like he's rational? What does that have to do with whether he is culpable for killing the guard?

You might be arguing he has some sort of insanity defense and that wouldn't be a bad defense. After all, a permanent Owl's Wisdom spell would cure his sociopathy immediately (if anyblody ever figured that out, and if Owl's Wisdom could be granted permanently, which it can't).

But so what? Is this really the best defense of Belkar you have to offer?



Not telling the truth for a good reason in one thing. Imprisoning someone for life (thereby taking their life) to keep the truth concealed is another.
According to the given hypothetical, Belkar would be imprioned for trying to blackmail or extort Hinjo. That's an entirely different analysis.

[tanonev]

Not telling the truth for a good reason in one thing. Imprisoning someone for life (thereby taking their life) to keep the truth concealed is another.

But if the revealing of the truth could cause the death of people (possibly including the person who revealed it)...

I think we need to look at a more basic case:

A LG person is confronted with the following dilemma:
There are two people, Person A and Person B. Neither person is guilty of any crime. However, circumstances require that one of the two must die. Neither of them wants to die. Furthermore, you must be the one to decide who dies. You must decide who dies within a day, or both of them will die. Any attempt to get around making this decision (i.e., killing yourself) will result in both of them dying immediately. Make your choice.

How is a LG person supposed to choose?

Green Goblin: Spider-Man. This is why only fools are heroes - because you never know when some lunatic will come along with a sadistic choice. Let die the woman you love... or suffer the little children. Make your choice, Spider-Man, and see how a hero is rewarded. (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0145487/quotes)

Ignore the fact that it's a Hollywood movie, so Spidey somehow gets to choose both.

A good person will eventually be forced to make a choice between two actions, neither of which is good. When that happens, whether or not that person made the correct choice is determined not by whether his action was in and of itself good, but whether choosing that action over the other one was good. And if both choices are equally bad, then his choice should not be held as an indicator of his alignment.

[Ampersand]

In any case, didn't someone mention that a sufficiently "effective" search could have required massive violations of Belkar's personal body?

It wasn't me who mentioned it, but it's pretty obvious from what Belkar said that the Ring of Jumping was concealed in his trousers, though both the front and back are too horrific to contemplate. In which case the people now complaining that Belkar *gasp* has to suffer some penalty for breaking the law would instead be complaining that Miko, Hinjo and Shojo were all perverts who enjoyed humilating him while he was unconscious.

[spectheintro]

But apparently what I should have done was killed him and walked home, because I'd done nothing wrong and he had no right to interfere with my life.

Don't forget paint the sidewalk in his entrails. That's the most important part!

[kerberos]

It may BE relevant, but that doesn't mean he IS innocent.
Context is everything, he is innocent of the charges of weakening the structure of the universe, I have never claimed he that Belkar was innocent of anything beyond that particular charge.


Belkar, no matter how much you may hate to admit it, was not 'kidnapped'. He chose to follow a legal officer, and THEN was arrested for assaulting that very same agent.
What webcomic do you read? Belkar chose to follow Miko yes, but he was not arrested for assaulting her, he was arrested by her after he and the order decided they no longer wanted to voluntarily follow her. Whether that arrest constitutes kidnapping is a question that is IMO meaningless since we have no knowledge of what legal structures guide such things in the OOTS universe.


The only thing fake was the trial for his charges, not the charges themselves,
That depends on what you mean by fake charges, the charges were by Shojo's own admission made knowing full well that the order "was innocent of any true wrongdoing".



and it may be a bit late but no one has a 'right' to escape from jail. Innocent or no.
That is only true insofar that you can reasonably expect a fair trial.


He may have had a fake trial for a crime he committed but he MADE himself guilty of another one while waiting for the first one.
No he had a fake trial for a crime he didn't commit, unless of cause you think that "standing in the general vicinity of people who accidentally threaten the structural integrity if the universe" is a crime, which considering how flagrantly unjust such a law would be seems rather unlikely to be the law in a goodly aligned city.

As for his guilt in killing the guard you would, if you will read my previous post, you can see that I have never claimed Belkar was innocent of that. Rather I said that could only argue that some of his action were justified by attributing motives to him that he clearly didn’t have.

[Tokiko Mima]

You've been talking about rights for a very long time now. Explain to me what rights are granted in the OotS world. If I recall correctly, those are much more limited than in the real world. I mean, they don't even get the right to free will; what the Giant says goes.

Saved him 5000 gp? (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0409.html)


I'll answer your questions in reverse order, as it's simplier. Shojo and Azure City have robbed Belkar of the most basic ability to defend himself, for one. It has almost killed him several times so far. So no, I don't think Belkar should be pathetically greatful for Hinjo saving him from Miko on behalf of Azure City. If it weren't for AC's Mark of Justice, Miko wouldn't have stood a ghost of a chance fighting Belkar without her Paladin powers.


Thief accused of stealing from a store: "It was the manager's fault! He tripped on a box behind the counter, allowing me to take something while he couldn't see me! He's the real thief!"
Serial killer: "My parents gave birth to me! It's their fault!"
Now THAT's a perverted system of justice.

But I'll humor you for a moment. So your accusation traces back to Miko. If she was "the real premediated (sic) murderer", then she should have fallen the moment the guard died. But she didn't. Therefore by reason of the contrapositive, she was NOT considered responsible for the murder by the powers that be (which I need to repeat are the gods as created by the Giant, NOT some reader who posts on the forums).
"It appears not everyone agrees with your analysis."

In any case, didn't someone mention that a sufficiently "effective" search could have required massive violations of Belkar's personal body?

Yeah.. umm.. his back pocket is really a gross violation. Even if it was where you assumed, guess what? It should have been checked. I don't care how gross it seems to people who don't work with dangerous psychos every day. It's your life you're taking about. All it really would have taken was a Detect Magic spell anyway.

As for the rest... If you bring a bengal tiger to the middle of a nursery and cage it in a cardboard box and tell the guard it's actually a housecat... what do you think is going to happen? Is it the tigers fault that by it's nature it wants to be free, and it likes to eat?


If it's ridiculous to expect Belkar to follow any laws, then what's the point of granting him any protection under the law? And as far as I can tell, the judicial system has been treating Belkar very fairly. Miko hasn't, but as we have seen, Miko was well on her way out of the judicial system.

Well, no one has bothered to find out, since the law has done literally nothing for Belkar at all except in a negative sense. As far as treating him fairly, I imagine being arrested being for traveling with a group that may have broken a made-up law might not strike you as an abuse of power, but it does me. Changing your sentencing just for the judge to one-up your mutual friend in a game of 'I'm the bigger leader' might seem fair, but it's not at all. Being compelled against your will to stay close to Roy and do what he says or he can hurt you badly with a single word isn't so bad, I suppose. But actually, it is.

[tanonev]

I'll answer your questions in reverse order, as it's simplier. Shojo and Azure City have robbed Belkar of the most basic ability to defend himself, for one. It has almost killed him several times so far. So no, I don't think Belkar should be pathetically greatful for Hinjo saving him from Miko on behalf of Azure City. If it weren't for AC's Mark of Justice, Miko wouldn't have stood a ghost of a chance fighting Belkar without her Paladin powers.

But at that point, Hinjo didn't even know about the Mark of Justice. Hinjo's actions therefore could not have been motivated out of some sort of guilt pertaining to that.

More importantly, the MoJ almost killed him ONCE (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0348.html) before the incident with Miko, not "several times so far." And that one incident was the result of OotS misappropriating AC resources for a personal sidequest, so I don't think it's fair to blame AC for that incident.


As for the rest... If you bring a bengal tiger to the middle of a nursery and cage it in a cardboard box and tell the guard it's actually a housecat... what do you think is going to happen? Is it the tigers fault that by it's nature it wants to be free, and it likes to eat?

If the bengal tiger followed me on verbal command without devouring me, then don't you think it's reasonable for me to assume that its behavior is tamer than your average bengal tiger? Remember, if Belkar wanted to be free, he could have done so here. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0230.html)


Yeah.. umm.. his back pocket is really a gross violation. Even if it was where you assumed, guess what? It should have been checked. I don't care how gross it seems to people who don't work with dangerous psychos every day. It's your life you're taking about. All it really would have taken was a Detect Magic spell anyway.

So you assert that an invasive search is better than holding someone in jail for less than 24 hours?


Well, no one has bothered to find out, since the law has done literally nothing for Belkar at all except in a negative sense. As far as treating him fairly, I imagine being arrested being for traveling with a group that may have broken a made-up law might not strike you as an abuse of power, but it does me. Changing your sentencing just for the judge to one-up your mutual friend in a game of 'I'm the bigger leader' might seem fair, but it's not at all. Being compelled against your will to stay close to Roy and do what he says or he can hurt you badly with a single word isn't so bad, I suppose. But actually, it is.

Let's see: The law kept Miko from killing Belkar. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0285.html) The law kept the guard's family from exacting revenge Yikyik style.

Put another way: if Miko had been sent by any other force than Shojo, Belkar would most likely be dead.

As for being arrested, if you're in a room where a murder occurs, unless you're the victim, you're going to get labeled as a suspect for a while. And as for the law being "made up", I'm pretty sure that common sense dictates that furthering the destruction of the universe, intentional or not, is a bad thing that requires the attention of the authorities.

As for the sentencing issue, are you asserting that Hinjo's INT score is so low that he couldn't have figured out that 4 - 5 = -1 is a problem on his own? If you're going to project your own system of morality and rights onto OotS, do it all the way: innocent until proven guilty. That was one of your problems concerning Belkar, correct? Yet you convict Hinjo right off the bat?

That last claim of yours either needs a rewording or some extra explanation.

Oh, and again, it is invalid to project your own system of morality and rights onto a universe invented and run by someone else. You're welcome to do so, of course, but any argument you make based off of that will be shaky at best. Along those lines, if what AC/Shojo did to Belkar was wrong, then why was killing Shojo considered an evil act? Not to mention the fact that Belkar liked Shojo. Belkar has no problems with Shojo. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0405.html) Why should you?

[Tokiko Mima]

But at that point, Hinjo didn't even know about the Mark of Justice. Hinjo's actions therefore could not have been motivated out of some sort of guilt pertaining to that.

Irrelevant. His foreknowledge and guilt/lack thereof means nothing in this case. He saved Belkar because he wanted to stand between two murderers, and presumably to talk Miko down before she commited a knowing evil act, instead of just a unknowing evil act she could have easily atoned for.

The point is, Belkar would not have been in danger except for the MoJ Azure City and Lord Shojo placed on him.


More importantly, the MoJ almost killed him ONCE (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0348.html) before the incident with Miko, not "several times so far." And that one incident was the result of OotS misappropriating AC resources for a personal sidequest, so I don't think it's fair to blame AC for that incident.

Yeah, if you add one time with Yikyik plus one time with Miko, it becomes two which can be called 'several' which means 'more than once.'

This was a sidequest I might add, that Belkar was forced to go along with as he needed to remain within 2 miles of Roy at all times. A Mark that you might remember Azure City applying to Belkar.


If the bengal tiger followed me on verbal command without devouring me, then don't you think it's reasonable for me to assume that its behavior is tamer than your average bengal tiger? Remember, if Belkar wanted to be free, he could have done so here. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0230.html)

That doesn't make any sense. Why would he want to be free from a free trip to Azure City with his friends? They were following Miko as she took them to Azure City.

If you will notice right here is where they remove consent, and it become kidnapping, or "Railroading." (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0251.html) Note the use of force and Belkar's being beaten unconcious? That's not called being "tame as a housecat," that's called being "knocked senseless and dragged off to face possible execution." Subtly different, I know.


So you assert that an invasive search is better than holding someone in jail for less than 24 hours?

I don't think I've asserted that, but a frisking is generally done before police take you into custody, yes. Even if it's only for 15 seconds, and they do cover back pockets in that search.


Let's see: The law kept Miko from killing Belkar. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0285.html) The law kept the guard's family from exacting revenge Yikyik style.

But curiously didn't defend him against Yikyik. Funny that, eh?


Put another way: if Miko had been sent by any other force than Shojo, Belkar would most likely be dead.

I'll have to disagree there: If anyone else but Shojo had been Lord, he/she would have been too busy with the in-fighting to care about some random dungeon blowing up, Snarl tales or no.


As for being arrested, if you're in a room where a murder occurs, unless you're the victim, you're going to get labeled as a suspect for a while. And as for the law being "made up", I'm pretty sure that common sense dictates that furthering the destruction of the universe, intentional or not, is a bad thing that requires the attention of the authorities.

We still only have Shojo's word on the whole Snarl thing. He knew the OotS did nothing wrong, and he dispatched Miko under the impression that they were violent killers. What if things had turned out differently, and she ended up killing the entire OotS in that initial fight?

Even so, it doesn't deny the fact that the law itself was made up expressly for bringing the OotS to Azure City, against their will, when Shojo knew they were innocent. Is it acceptable for Lord Shojo to create laws to punish innocent people?


As for the sentencing issue, are you asserting that Hinjo's INT score is so low that he couldn't have figured out that 4 - 5 = -1 is a problem on his own? If you're going to project your own system of morality and rights onto OotS, do it all the way: innocent until proven guilty. That was one of your problems concerning Belkar, correct? Yet you convict Hinjo right off the bat?

I've argued this to death already on this thread, and this is the last time I'll say it. Hinjo sentencing Belkar to 6 years is not the problem. Hinjo telling Roy (I'm paraphrasing, obviously) that "because he heard him make his plan to beat the justice system, that that was why the sentence was 6 years" is the problem. Belkar should be sentenced for things he did, not what Roy did.


Oh, and again, it is invalid to project your own system of morality and rights onto a universe invented and run by someone else. You're welcome to do so, of course, but any argument you make based off of that will be shaky at best. Along those lines, if what AC/Shojo did to Belkar was wrong, then why was killing Shojo considered an evil act? Not to mention the fact that Belkar liked Shojo. Belkar has no problems with Shojo. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0405.html) Why should you?

Umm.. that's what message board forums are for. I'm not telling Rich to rewrite his story. I love OotS. It's so much better in his hands than it would be in anyone elses. I enjoy talking about it, especially when not everyone on the board thinks the same way.

Now be honest, every single post in this forum is all about people's 'views' and 'mortality' or 'did you notice X? I think it means Y.' Why does it upset you so that I think Belkar is not getting a fair shake? You seem to want me to not offer my morality or take on this situation. You are welcome to ignore my posts, but asking that I exercise self-censorship because you don't agree with/can't understand me is a little extreme.

As for your final question, killing a defenseless old man is evil regardless of the actions he has taken in the past. Even if Shojo was evil (and he's most likely not), killing him in cold blood would still be wrong. As for why I have a problem with Shojo when Belkar likes him, I have to assert that I am not Belkar, and I don't ever want to be Belkar. I don't share his opinions on much of anything.

Counterquestion: Why are you equating me with Belkar? Aren't I entitled to defend people that aren't throughly likable without becoming them?

[MReav]

I've argued this to death already on this thread, and this is the last time I'll say it. Hinjo sentencing Belkar to 6 years is not the problem. Hinjo telling Roy (I'm paraphrasing, obviously) that "because he heard him make his plan to beat the justice system, that that was why the sentence was 6 years" is the problem. Belkar should be sentenced for things he did, not what Roy did.

Belkar is being sentenced for what he did. 4 years is simply the minimum that Belkar could be sentenced for. For all we know, Hinjo was going to sentence him to 6 years all along, because he wanted to have Belkar in prison for what he did at least for some time, and Roy didn't think that Hinjo wouldn't do anything but kowtow to the PCs.

[Tokiko Mima]

Belkar is being sentenced for what he did. 4 years is simply the minimum that Belkar could be sentenced for. For all we know, Hinjo was going to sentence him to 6 years all along, because he wanted to have Belkar in prison for what he did at least for some time, and Roy didn't think that Hinjo wouldn't do anything but kowtow to the PCs.

Ok, I guess I break my promise.

Again, you are technically correct, but you aren't disputing what I said. I even said:


Hinjo sentencing Belkar to 6 years is not the problem.

If Hinjo had said nothing and walked away after saying '6 years' then there would be no problem. It's what he said after he delivered the sentence that is the problem, and it's what makes him an irresponsible judge. again, a quote from OotS #420 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0420.html)


"Yeah, well, you probably shouldn't have discussed how you were going to beat the system in front of the guy charged with upholding the system."

Translation: "It's not the sentence you (Roy) expected because it annoyed me how you were planning to circumvent my laws right in front of me."

Hinjo is well within his rights to sentence Belkar to 6 years. I don't dispute his authority to throw the book at Belkar, and give him 200 years if he liked. The problem here is he's not passing judgement on Belkar for killing a guard. He's passing judgement on Roy for being an ass to his country laws right in front of him, the lawful ruler.

[tanonev]

Yeah, if you add one time with Yikyik plus one time with Miko, it becomes two which can be called 'several' which means 'more than once.'


sev·er·al (sĕv'ər-əl, sĕv'rəl) pronunciation
adj.

1. Being of a number more than two or three but not many: several miles away.

More importantly, you were citing events concerning the MoJ to counter my citation of Hinjo's save. Reusing the same event doesn't count.

If there are x times in which you are in trouble alone and y times in which you would have been in trouble had it not been for the presence of someone else, how many times were you in trouble? X times, not x + y times.


He saved Belkar because he wanted to stand between two murderers, and presumably to talk Miko down before she commited a knowing evil act, instead of just a unknowing evil act she could have easily atoned for.

Hmm...I never thought of it that way...interesting read.


This was a sidequest I might add, that Belkar was forced to go along with as he needed to remain within 2 miles of Roy at all times. A Mark that you might remember Azure City applying to Belkar.

And why is this not Roy's fault for lacking the foresight to see this problem? Or Belkar's fault for not attempting to talk Roy out of this (beyond checking whether Julia was a hottie)? Why automatically blame AC for this?


I don't think I've asserted that, but a frisking is generally done before police take you into custody, yes. Even if it's only for 15 seconds, and they do cover back pockets in that search.

What proof do you have that they didn't check his back pockets? I still think Belkar may have pulled something he thought was clever but would later regret, such as swallowing the ring. Who knows, maybe that screws up Detect Magic.
Yes, it's speculation against speculation, but stay in character. AC's legal system may have its quirks, but I doubt its enforcers are utterly incompetent. Belkar, on the other hand, might make some unexpected decisions that occasionally work out for him.


But curiously didn't defend him against Yikyik. Funny that, eh?


Weren't you just complaining about AC overextending its jurisdiction beyond its boundaries? Be consistent, will you?


We still only have Shojo's word on the whole Snarl thing.

Are you willing to claim that Shojo lied about the Snarl? Because if so, the discussion can take a much more...interesting...direction.


He knew the OotS did nothing wrong, and he dispatched Miko under the impression that they were violent killers. What if things had turned out differently, and she ended up killing the entire OotS in that initial fight?

Shojo never gave Miko the impression that they were violent killers. Her encounters with townspeople terrorized by the LG (as well as Belkar's incident at the barbarian arena--hmm...Belkar bringing this upon himself again?) led her to the conclusion that they were violent killers.


Even so, it doesn't deny the fact that the law itself was made up expressly for bringing the OotS to Azure City, against their will, when Shojo knew they were innocent. Is it acceptable for Lord Shojo to create laws to punish innocent people?

And again, this has been brought up too many times. "Arrest" and "punish" are two very different things.

In any case, lemme relate an analogy: You break it, you buy it. Can't buy it? Make it up somehow. OotS broke a gate. Shojo has sworn to protect the gates (specifically Soon's gate, but he's also alerted every time another gate is destroyed, and there's no reason for him to receive alerts if he isn't supposed to do something about it), and as the protector of a broken gate, he can make the gate breakers either fix the gate or keep the remaining gates from being broken.

And I don't think the law itself was made up, just the accusation was. There's also the reminder that if the trial were real, OotS would have been found guilty.


You seem to want me to not offer my morality or take on this situation. You are welcome to ignore my posts, but asking that I exercise self-censorship because you don't agree with/can't understand me is a little extreme.

Thank you for twisting my words. I never said that you weren't welcome to offer your take on these situations. I never even said that I didn't want them. I just wanted to let you know that doing so bakes a fundamental flaw directly into logical arguments that you try to base off of them.

This flaw, of course, is only made worse when this projection is inconsistent.


Counterquestion: Why are you equating me with Belkar? Aren't I entitled to defend people that aren't throughly likable without becoming them?

Misinterpretation. I never equated you with Belkar. Suppose person X says "I don't care about Z offense to me" with a reasonably good understanding of the situation.
I am of the opinion that if person Y hears this, he/she should not continue prosecution on X's behalf.

[tanonev]

"Yeah, well, you probably shouldn't have discussed how you were going to beat the system in front of the guy charged with upholding the system."

Stupid English language >.> If you read it as you plural (which isn't unreasonable), the translation could just as easily be
"If you plead guilty with the intent of getting off scot-free, I'm afraid I'm going to disappoint you."

EDIT: Isn't there some offense called "Contempt of Court" or something as well?

Oh, and I can't remember who said this, but someone keeps bringing up how Belkar could find his own way to remove the MoJ by ambushing a high-level wizard. I think he already gave up on that search. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0304.html)

[Wrecan]

Translation: "It's not the sentence you (Roy) expected because it annoyed me how you were planning to circumvent my laws right in front of me."
The problem is that your translation is faulty. Here's a more reasonable translation:
I had totally forgotten that Belkar had not been sentenced. Your discussion reminded me what the minimum sentence is for that crime. As is appropriate (and in fact obligatory) for a judge, I am taking into account all the available facts and giving him a sentence I think is appropriate, which, by the way, is still less than the minimum sentence for the crime of which he plead guilty. In the future, you might want to talk to me about the specific sentence you believe someone should receive instead of trying to play the system.

[Mr Teufel]

EDIT: Isn't there some offense called "Contempt of Court" or something as well?


I think this is the telling point. Even if Hinjo had planned to sentence Belkar to the minimum 4 years* and then changed his mind after hearing the discussion as Roy told Belkar exactly how he planned to play the system, it is totally justified to add to the sentence on the grounds that playing the system is contempt of court. It is an attempt to avoid justice.

QED.


*a remarkable decision, considering exactly what Belkar did to the guard.

[kerberos]

I think this is the telling point. Even if Hinjo had planned to sentence Belkar to the minimum 4 years* and then changed his mind after hearing the discussion as Roy told Belkar exactly how he planned to play the system, it is totally justified to add to the sentence on the grounds that playing the system is contempt of court. It is an attempt to avoid justice.

QED.

Two points:

1) Contempt of Court is a separate charge for which an individual may be punished, it doesn't allow the judge to spontaneously impose a hasher sentence that would otherwise be appropriate, nor is it generally

2) Neither Belkar nor Roy were in contempt of court, words have meanings you know.

If anybody is interested they can read about Contempt of court here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contempt_of_court

I would particularly like to point to these passages:


”A finding of contempt of court may result from a failure to obey a lawful order of a court (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Court), showing disrespect for the judge (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judge), disruption of the proceedings through poor behavior, or publication of material deemed likely to jeopardize a fair trial.”

"To prove contempt, the prosecutor or complainant must prove the four elements of contempt. These are (1) existence of a lawful order, (2) the contemnor's knowledge of the order, (3) the contemnor's ability to comply, and (4) the contemnor's failure to comply."

Clearly Belkar is not in contempt of court.

[kerberos]

In any case, lemme relate an analogy: You break it, you buy it. Can't buy it? Make it up somehow. OotS broke a gate. Shojo has sworn to protect the gates (specifically Soon's gate, but he's also alerted every time another gate is destroyed, and there's no reason for him to receive alerts if he isn't supposed to do something about it), and as the protector of a broken gate, he can make the gate breakers either fix the gate or keep the remaining gates from being broken.

2 points (a coincidence, I swear):

1) You break it, you buy it, is not a legal principle, never has been, never will be, under some circumstances (which do not apply here) you can be held responsible for damage you cause, but this is not automatic.

2) the OotS did not break the gate, Elan did, unless you can prove that OotS are a corporation they're not collectively responsible for the action of the individual members. Therefore even if I were to accept that Elan could be held legally responsible for the consequences the rest of the order couldn't.

[Wrecan]

Kerberos,

Trying to pull a fast one on the judge, which is what Roy and Belkar were attempting, is disrespectful to a judge. Take it from someone who appears before judges as an attorney on a regular basis. What they did constitutes contempt of court.

And tanonev called "you break it you buy it" analogous to a legal principle, not a legal principle itself.

And yes, Belkar did not break the gate, but as he participated in the fight with Miko designed to prevent the guilty party from being brought to justice, he would be guilty of being an accessory after the fact, in most jurisdictions, and could still be punished. (This all assumes there is really a law about endangering the gates)

[kerberos]

Kerberos,

Trying to pull a fast one on the judge, which is what Roy and Belkar were attempting, is disrespectful to a judge. Take it from someone who appears before judges as an attorney on a regular basis. What they did constitutes contempt of court.
I have a difficult time accepting that, Roy is explaining a deal he got to Belkar, not being rude to the judge. If attempting to manipulate the court system was a crime there wouldn't be many lawyers outside of prisons (this is not meant as an insult to Lawyers BTW, I'd say similar things about Politicians civil servants or really any number of other professions, manipulating any system you can to the extend you can get away with it is just what people do). Still even if he was the Entire thing is Roy's idea and thing, Belkar has nothing to do with it beyond grasping ultimately (if erroneously) that he gut’s off Scott free by pleading guilty. But even if we ignore that any wrongdoing is primarily Roy's and accept that this would constitute contempt of court this kind of contempt of court would unless I miss my guess very badly be punished with a fine rather than several years in a dungeon.


And tanonev called "you break it you buy it" analogous to a legal principle, not a legal principle itself.
In that case it was an invalid analogy.


And yes, Belkar did not break the gate, but as he participated in the fight with Miko designed to prevent the guilty party from being brought to justice, he would be guilty of being an accessory after the fact, in most jurisdictions, and could still be punished. (This all assumes there is really a law about endangering the gates)
Assuming that, and also assuming that we regard Miko as having a legal right to arrest them (in itself a contestable point), then yes I can see that he would be an accessory after the fact.

[Wrecan]

I have a difficult time accepting that, Roy is explaining a deal he got to Belkar, not being rude to the judge.
Roy didn't have a deal. He was explaining to Belkar that if he got the minimum, he'd get no jail time, but Hinjo's reaction clearly shows Roy didn't have a deal for the mnimum. He just figured Hinjo wouldn't do the math.


If attempting to manipulate the court system was a crime there wouldn't be many lawyers outside of prisonsBut the difference is the lawyers don't manipulate the court system by pulling a fast one on the judge. They do it by explaining to the judge why the law requires the result the lawyer wants.

What Celia did in devising a defense for OOTS based on Azure City's own laws is manipulating the system and there was no deception involved at all. What Roy was doing in trying to get Hinjo to give an ill-thought out punishment was not "manipulating"; it was deceptive.


Still even if he was the Entire thing is Roy's idea and thing, Belkar has nothing to do with it beyond grasping ultimately (if erroneously) that he gut’s off Scott free by pleading guilty.
He went along witht he plan. Gleefully, I might add.


unless I miss my guess very badly be punished with a fine rather than several years in a dungeon.
Actually, in this instance, it would probably negate the plea deal. Belkar could have been punished for murder, rather than voluntary manslaughter, or Hinjo could have ignored the five-year reduction. All told, Hinjo was remarkably lenient.

[kerberos]

Roy didn't have a deal. He was explaining to Belkar that if he got the minimum, he'd get no jail time, but Hinjo's reaction clearly shows Roy didn't have a deal for the mnimum. He just figured Hinjo wouldn't do the math.
Roy made a mistaken assumption, I don't see how that constitutes contempt for court.


But the difference is the lawyers don't manipulate the court system by pulling a fast one on the judge. They do it by explaining to the judge why the law requires the result the lawyer wants.

What Celia did in devising a defense for OOTS based on Azure City's own laws is manipulating the system and there was no deception involved at all. What Roy was doing in trying to get Hinjo to give an ill-thought out punishment was not "manipulating"; it was deceptive.
How on Earth was it deceptive. He concealed absolutely no facts from Hinjo. He didn't explicitly inform Hinjo of the logic behind his plan, but he has no duty to, in fact a resonable person might expect Hinjo to be able to do such basic math without help.



He went along witht he plan. Gleefully, I might add.
I see no reason to assume he grasped any part of the plan other than that he would get off.


Actually, in this instance, it would probably negate the plea deal. Belkar could have been punished for murder, rather than voluntary manslaughter, or Hinjo could have ignored the five-year reduction. All told, Hinjo was remarkably lenient.
There was no plea deal, Hinjo agreed to reduce the charge because of the circumstances, as an attorney would you feel obligated to point out the results of such a deal you made with the prosecution (in this case Hinjo would be regarded as prosecutor) if you believed he might be to stupid to figure it out by himself? I doubt that. It’s the prosecutions job to figure out what the deals he makes mean, as long as the defence doesn’t distort the fact or any such thing which we have no reason to think Roy did.

[Tokiko Mima]

[/I]The problem is that your translation is faulty. Here's a more reasonable translation:
I had totally forgotten that Belkar had not been sentenced. Your discussion reminded me what the minimum sentence is for that crime. As is appropriate (and in fact obligatory) for a judge, I am taking into account all the available facts and giving him a sentence I think is appropriate, which, by the way, is still less than the minimum sentence for the crime of which he plead guilty. In the future, you might want to talk to me about the specific sentence you believe someone should receive instead of trying to play the system.

Four problems with this:

1) Hinjo was already reminded that Belkar hadn't been sentenced yet, and thus was well aware by the time of sentencing that he hadn't been sentenced. You should be translating a single statement, not Hinjo's thoughts from the entire comic.

2) You assume that Hinjo, the ruler of Azure City, doesn't know the minimum penalty for manslaughter in Azure city, but Roy, a complete foreigner does. I don't see how you could get that information from the comic.

3) I don't believe your translation fully explains the context of Hinjo next very obviously sarcastic statement, "I still get to make Listen checks when I'm three feet away, you know." nor does it explain the frown and angry looks in the panel from all involved. Hinjo was upset while saying this.

4) Belkar was charged with manslaughter, for which the minimum penalty is 4 years. He plead guilty to this and was sentenced to 6 years. 6 years is not less than 4 years, the minimum, so your statement that he was given a sentence less than the minimum for the crime to which he plead guilty is false.

[GoC]

[Scrubbed].:smallconfused:

[Emperor Demonking]

[Scrubbed]:smallconfused:

Why resort tompersonal insults, to someone who disagrees with you.

If the I know a god rule works, even outside your legal boundries then surely Elan could arrest Hinjo thanks to Banjo.

Can he?

[Wrecan]

Roy made a mistaken assumption, I don't see how that constitutes contempt for court.
Roy's "mistaken assumption" was based on the notion that Hinjo wouldn't think about the math. There's no other reason for Roy to assume Belkar would get the minimum having already convinced Hinjo to reduce the crime from murder to manslaughter.


How on Earth was it deceptive. He concealed absolutely no facts from Hinjo.He did. He concealed the whole reason Roy convinced Hinjo to give a reduced sentence wass so it would stack with Belkar. Roy took advantage of the fact that Hinjo was so busy that he forgot he hadn't even convicted Belkar of a crime yet.


a resonable person might expect Hinjo to be able to do such basic math without help.Except Hinjo is clearly overhwelmed with work in preparing for the war as evidenced by the fact that he forgot he hadn't yet convicted Belkar of a crime.


I see no reason to assume he grasped any part of the plan other than that he would get off.It doesn't matter. When you let someone represent you, you can be responsible for their screw-ups. Roy was acting as Belkar's advocate. That's why you should always get an actual attorney to represent you.


There was no plea deal, Hinjo agreed to reduce the charge because of the circumstances, as an attorney would you feel obligated to point out the results of such a deal you made with the prosecution (in this case Hinjo would be regarded as prosecutor) if you believed he might be to stupid to figure it out by himself?Actually, in America (and UK, as this came up in a case I worked on in the UK) would in fact be required to explain the entire plea deal to the court before any sentence is determined. Any failure to explain such things voids the plea deal in its entirety. So, yes. That's the way things work and always have. Lawyers don't get to be cagey with judges.

Sure, in TV-Land lawyers are cagey and deceptive, pulling the wool over the eyes of jurors, judges and witnesses, pulling out loopholes and playing the system. Taint so, tho.


It’s the prosecutions job///It is every lawyer's job to be fully honest with the judge, though.


Four problems with this:

1) Hinjo was already reminded that Belkar hadn't been sentenced yet, and thus was well aware by the time of sentencing that he hadn't been sentenced. You should be translating a single statement, not Hinjo's thoughts from the entire comic.
Hinjo's thoughts are in context and I'm giving you the context. You can't take every sentence as if it exists in a vacuum!


2) You assume that Hinjo, the ruler of Azure City, doesn't know the minimum penalty for manslaughter in Azure city, but Roy, a complete foreigner does.I assumed no such thing. I assumed that Hinjo, being so busy that he forgot that he convicted the man standing right in front of him, may not have bothered to think how these plea deals were going to stack and that Roy hoped to gain advantage from that busy-ness. It's a reaosnable assumption and much more reasonable than assuming Hinjo, a paladin who doesn't seem to have a mean bone in his body, and who immediately thereafter offers to remove the Mark of Justice from Belkar, is acting out of spite. i mean, really. In the realm of "improbable character motivations", Roy-tries-to-take-advantage-of-someone's-understandable-lapse-in-memory is much more credible than Hinjo-sentences-Belkar-out-of-spite.


3) I don't believe your translation fully explains the context of Hinjo next very obviously sarcastic statement, "I still get to make Listen checks when I'm three feet away, you know." nor does it explain the frown and angry looks in the panel from all involved. Hinjo was upset while saying this.Of course he's upset. Roy -- the lawful good fighter he entrusted his life to -- just tried to pull a fast one on him. Who wouldn't be upset? My statement fully accomodates all of those facts and doesn't assume any character to be acting out of character, whereas your translation assumes Hinjo is suddenly spiteful.


4) Belkar was charged with manslaughter, for which the minimum penalty is 4 years. He plead guilty to this and was sentenced to 6 years. 6 years is not less than 4 years, the minimum, so your statement that he was given a sentence less than the minimum for the crime to which he plead guilty is false.He was sentenced to one year in total, which last I checked is less than four. C'mon, Tokiko, you can't (inaccurately) criticize me for not reading statements in context, and then so blatnatly read my statements out of context. I was clearly referring to the end result when I said the sentence given was less than the statutory minimum. Sheesh.

[Wrecan]

If the I know a god rule works, even outside your legal boundries then surely Elan could arrest Hinjo thanks to Banjo.
He can try. Whether he has the capability to do so, depends in large part, on the powers of his god. Banjo doesn't seem up to the task.

[tanonev]

Two points:

1) Contempt of Court is a separate charge for which an individual may be punished, it doesn't allow the judge to spontaneously impose a hasher sentence that would otherwise be appropriate, nor is it generally

2) Neither Belkar nor Roy were in contempt of court, words have meanings you know.

If anybody is interested they can read about Contempt of court here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contempt_of_court

I would particularly like to point to these passages:


”A finding of contempt of court may result from a failure to obey a lawful order of a court (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Court), showing disrespect for the judge (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judge), disruption of the proceedings through poor behavior, or publication of material deemed likely to jeopardize a fair trial.”

"To prove contempt, the prosecutor or complainant must prove the four elements of contempt. These are (1) existence of a lawful order, (2) the contemnor's knowledge of the order, (3) the contemnor's ability to comply, and (4) the contemnor's failure to comply."

Clearly Belkar is not in contempt of court.

As you know, AC law is not the same as US law or English law. In bringing up contempt of court, I was referring to the logic behind it, not the mechanics of its implementation in modern countries.

In that sense, then, Belkar and Roy are clearly "showing disrespect for the judge"; just because Hinjo didn't follow the procedure outlined in US or UK law does not mean that his method is invalid or unjust.

[tanonev]

In that case it was an invalid analogy.

So an analogy to a legal principle is only valid if it uses another legal principle? In that case this is an invalid argument. Words have meanings, you know. (http://www.answers.com/analogy&r=67)

[Ampersand]

As you know, AC law is not the same as US law or English law. In bringing up contempt of court, I was referring to the logic behind it, not the mechanics of its implementation in modern countries.

Darn, beat me to it.

On the point of contempt of court being a sepearte charge, it doesn't really matter. The results would have been the same:

http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a311/estelindis/hinjo.gifBelakr Bitterleaf, on the crime of involentary manslaughter, I find you guilty and hereby sentence you to four years in prison...
:roy: And with the five year reduction, that means you don't serve any time at all!
:belkar: Sweet! The system fails again!
http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a311/estelindis/hinjo.gif...and on the crime of contempt of court, I find you guilty and hearby sentence you to two years in prison, as well as issuing a censure against both you and your adovcate.
:roy: & :belkar: What? But we're PCs! We shouldn't be punished for anything we do, no matter how outright Evil, insane, or genocidal!
http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a311/estelindis/hinjo.gif QQ more, n00bs.

[Professor Tanhauser]

What makes me really have contempt for hinjo's court is that first he begs belkar for aid, then hoses him over.

Also I think that he doesn't know belkar WILL get revenge on him, somehow.

[Ampersand]

What makes me really have contempt for hinjo's court is that first he begs belkar for aid, then hoses him over.

Where precisely did he beg for Belkar's assistance?

[Flakey]

He asked for Belkars aid, along with all the other criminals. He was also prepared to send him back to jail, along with the kidnapper, if he did not say yes. Hardly begging for aid,

[Tokiko Mima]

Hinjo's thoughts are in context and I'm giving you the context. You can't take every sentence as if it exists in a vacuum!

In a translation, you usually attempt to replicate the exact meaning of the source. Adding additional context is editorializing. Besides, what you wrote doesn't make sense as additional context, since it implies Hinjo doesn't know that Belkar hasn't been sentenced based on a quote taken after Hinjo had sentenced Belkar. It's logically inconsistant.

As far as "context from a vacuum," how can you make that argument when you didn't pull my full quotes?


I assumed no such thing. I assumed that Hinjo, being so busy that he forgot that he convicted the man standing right in front of him, may not have bothered to think how these plea deals were going to stack and that Roy hoped to gain advantage from that busy-ness. It's a reaosnable assumption and much more reasonable than assuming Hinjo, a paladin who doesn't seem to have a mean bone in his body, and who immediately thereafter offers to remove the Mark of Justice from Belkar, is acting out of spite. i mean, really. In the realm of "improbable character motivations", Roy-tries-to-take-advantage-of-someone's-understandable-lapse-in-memory is much more credible than Hinjo-sentences-Belkar-out-of-spite.

Of course he's upset. Roy -- the lawful good fighter he entrusted his life to -- just tried to pull a fast one on him. Who wouldn't be upset? My statement fully accomodates all of those facts and doesn't assume any character to be acting out of character, whereas your translation assumes Hinjo is suddenly spiteful.

You assuming a failure on Hinjo's part to remember the laws regarding penalties for manslaughter was entirely my point. There's absolutely no reason to assume that Hinjo couldn't add 4 and -5 and get -1. There's no place in #420 where Hinjo admits that he forgot that 4 years was the minimum penalty for manslaughter, only that Belkar had a good point when he said he not yet been convicted.

If Roy was intentionally taking advantage of Hinjo, why would he recite his plan 5 feet in front of Hinjo? As nice as Hinjo has been portrayed thus far, isn't it even less reasonable to assume that Roy would fail so badly at being diplomatic to a friend? There was nothing illegal about what Roy did (or Hinjo would have punished him on the spot), and in fact it is only questionably ethical.

The easiest answer is that he (Hinjo) was going to sentence Belkar to 4 years, but then he saw how Roy was manipulating the law so he made it 6 years, so Roy's plan would be foiled. That's a lot easier to believe than any of these theories about lawful rulers forgetting basic legal tenets. People, even Paladin Kings, sometimes get POed, upset, or spiteful. While understandable that doesn't excuse poor discretion as a judge.


He was sentenced to one year in total, which last I checked is less than four. C'mon, Tokiko, you can't (inaccurately) criticize me for not reading statements in context, and then so blatnatly read my statements out of context. I was clearly referring to the end result when I said the sentence given was less than the statutory minimum. Sheesh.

I didn't include the -5 year deal as part of his sentence because it wasn't part of his sentence. Hinjo didn't give Belkar and those others -5 years to be nice or because they deserved it, he gave it to them because he needed them to fight for him. It's a carrot he dangles that gets the prisoners to dance for him.

He specified they be over level 5, so this definately wasn't some act of mercy so they don't die if/when the Prison is destroyed. I'm sure there are plenty of level 0-4's still in jail in danger of getting smashed. And it has nothing to do with Belkar's murder of a guard, which I believe Belkar still deserves to be actually sentenced for.

[Wrecan]

In a translation, you usually attempt to replicate the exact meaning of the source.
If Hinjo were speaking in Swahili, yes. But Hinjo is speaking in English. Your "translation" necessarily was placing his words in context!


As far as "comments from a vacuum," how can you make that argument when you didn't pull my full quotes?
I gave enough quote so you could find the original to which I was responding. But my responses have always been to what you wrote in context.


You assuming a failure on Hinjo's part to remember the laws regarding penalties for manslaughter was entirely my point. There's absolutely no reason to assume that Hinjo couldn't add 4 and -5 and get -1.
He can, but Roy is obviously relying on the fact that he is so busy he won't bother and will simply award the minimum sentence and look it up later.


There's no place in #420 where Hinjo admits that he forgot that 4 years was the minimum penalty for manslaughter, only that Belkar had a good point when he said he not yet been convicted.
Nor is there anyplace that said Hinjo has an encyclopedic knowledge of the laws of Azure City. Most career criminal lawyers don't have all the penalties for all crimes memorized. Hinjo, whose had the job for all of a week (at most) certainly wouldn't.


If Roy was intentionally taking advantage of Hinjo, why would he recite his plan 5 feet in front of Hinjo?
Because it's funny. If Hinjo was so spiteful, why have we never seen evidence of it before now?


isn't it even less reasonable to assume that Roy would fail so badly at being diplomatic to a friend?
What comic are you reading? Roy is sarcastic and callous to his friends all the time. He insults Elan and Belkar on a regular basis. He was utterly dismissive to the wizard guy who was directly helping him rescue his sister. He's even mean to his sister. OOTS almost always forgets when NPCs are in the vicinity, as evidenced by Belkar's original confession mere feet from an Azure City guard. Heck, Shojo and Roy openly discussed major secrets without ever checking to see that Hinjo and Miko were standing right there.

It's not like this is the first time that Roy said things in front of Hinjo he wasn't supposed to.


There was nothing illegal about what Roy did (or Hinjo would have punished him on the spot), and in fact it is only questionably ethical.
It is only questionable to people who know nothing about laws. And I'm not just talking about American law, but the entire history of laws dating back to Hamurabi.


The easiest answer is that he (Hinjo) was going to sentence Belkar to 4 years, but then he saw how Roy was manipulating the law so he made it 6 years, so Roy's plan would be foiled. That's a lot easier to believe than any of these theories about lawful rulers forgetting basic legal tenets.
Minimumn sentences for one of many forms of murder is not "a basic legal tenet". Even lawyers and judges have to look that stuff up in books.


I didn't include the -5 year deal as part of his sentence because it wasn't part of his sentence.
Whose sentence? We were talking about my statement, not Hinjo's.


I'm sure there are plenty of level 0-4's still in jail in danger of getting smashed.
No, there aren't. Hinjo ordered that "everybody who can't fight" be evacuated. When the guards mention "5th level", that's clearly the cut-off for prisoners who are presumably unable to fight. The only people left in the prison are those held for capital crimes (Miko), the kidnapper, and the Linear Guild (and only because Hinjo doesn't even know about them).


And it has nothing to do with Belkar's murder of a guard, which I believe Belkar still deserves to be actually sentenced for.

Um... that's what the reduced sentence pertains to. What do you think Belkar was sentenced for?

[Tokiko Mima]

I gave enough quote so you could find the original to which I was responding. But my responses have always been to what you wrote in context.


He can, but Roy is obviously relying on the fact that he is so busy he won't bother and will simply award the minimum sentence and look it up later.


Nor is there anyplace that said Hinjo has an encyclopedic knowledge of the laws of Azure City. Most career criminal lawyers don't have all the penalties for all crimes memorized. Hinjo, whose had the job for all of a week (at most) certainly wouldn't.


It is only questionable to people who know nothing about laws. And I'm not just talking about American law, but the entire history of laws dating back to Hamurabi.


Minimumn sentences for one of many forms of murder is not "a basic legal tenet". Even lawyers and judges have to look that stuff up in books.

Whoa! Wait, are you saying that in fact, Hinjo only has Roy's word that the minimum penalty is 4 years? That in fact Roy might have tricked him because he never looked it up or knew what it actually was? It could have been a 10 year minimum penalty for all Hinjo actually knew? Yet he sentenced a criminal without even checking the actual laws first? THAT'S irresponsible on a level that is appalling. I seriously hope you're wrong, and that doesn't jive with Hinjo's character at all. If true, he should be displaced as ruler.


Whose sentence? We were talking about my statement, not Hinjo's.

The 'he' I'm referring to is the same 'he' you mentioned in your quote. So you don't have to go back and look, I meant Belkar's sentence. The 6 year long one.


No, there aren't. Hinjo ordered that "everybody who can't fight" be evacuated. When the guards mention "5th level", that's clearly the cut-off for prisoners who are presumably unable to fight. The only people left in the prison are those held for capital crimes (Miko), the kidnapper, and the Linear Guild (and only because Hinjo doesn't even know about them).

I know a lot of level 4 fighters, clerics, barbarians, rangers, etc. that would disagree with you about being included with 'everybody unable to fight.' By that standard, most of Hinjo's army is presumably unable to fight, being level 1 or 2, and would have been evacutated from the city.


Um... that's what the reduced sentence pertains to. What do you think Belkar was sentenced for?

You really want me to answer that question?

...

OK, Belkar was sentenced to 4 years for the minimum on manslaughter, and 2 years in prison because Hinjo believes that Roy slighting his legal system is a crime, and Belkar should do the time.

[Ampersand]

You really want me to answer that question?

...

OK, Belkar was sentenced to 4 years for the minimum on manslaughter, and 2 years in prison because Hinjo believes that Roy slighting his legal system is a crime, and Belkar should do the time.

Why are you assuming that Belkar would get the minimum sentence?

And the only crime he was sentenced for was volentary manslaughter, for a period of six years, reduced to one for service to the city if he assists in the defense and survivies.

[Tokiko Mima]

Why are you assuming that Belkar would get the minimum sentence?

And the only crime he was sentenced for was volentary manslaughter, for a period of six years, reduced to one for service to the city if he assists in the defense and survivies.

I'm not assuming it's only 4 years, only that at least 4 years of Belkar's sentence is for manslaughter. The rest is questionable.

[tanonev]

OK, Belkar was sentenced to 4 years for the minimum on manslaughter, and 2 years in prison because Hinjo believes that Roy slighting his legal system is a crime, and Belkar should do the time.

Again, you're asserting that Belkar is getting in trouble for Roy's actions. Remember that Belkar agreed with Roy's plan/reasoning.

[NecroPaladin]

Belkar's Chaotic.




If he turns down a restraining order to stay away from a horse because he's chaotic, why would they be lenient when he sues?

[tanonev]

What makes me really have contempt for hinjo's court is that first he begs belkar for aid, then hoses him over.

Also I think that he doesn't know belkar WILL get revenge on him, somehow.

I think Belkar getting revenge on Hinjo requires that Belkar actually take offense at Hinjo's actions first. From the looks of Belkar's face in the strip, Belkar blames Roy for misinforming him and blowing his escape, and has no problem with Hinjo himself.

On that note:


He saved Belkar because he wanted to stand between two murderers, and presumably to talk Miko down before she commited a knowing evil act, instead of just a unknowing evil act she could have easily atoned for.

The last frame in the second to last row (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0420.html) tells us why Hinjo saved Belkar.

On a less heated topic, I noticed that Hinjo said he would have his wizards (plural) remove the MoJ after the fight. Does that mean that perhaps the MoJ is a house-ruled ritual spell and that the sum of the wizards' caster levels determines whether it can be removed? If so, that might explain why Belkar wasn't able to find a wizard to remove it. It would also complicate any attempts on Belkar's part to remove the MoJ by ambushing a wizard. (And something tells me Belkar lacks the INT, WIS, and/or Knowledge (Arcana) ranks to figure out on his own that he needs multiple wizards to remove the MoJ.)

[Tokiko Mima]

Again, you're asserting that Belkar is getting in trouble for Roy's actions. Remember that Belkar agreed with Roy's plan/reasoning.

Right. But just as important is when you look at the reverse. Why isn't Roy getting in trouble for the same actions? On top of simply agreeing with them, Roy dreamed up his plan and did all the legwork with Hinjo. He is waaay more complicit in this action than Belkar is, who barely understands the legal manuevering. The answer is simply: Doing what Roy did is not a crime. If it was, Hinjo would have sent Roy to jail with Belkar.

And yet Belkar is seeing the possibility of up to 365 days of prison food for doing what netted his friend no time at all.

[tanonev]

Or perhaps Hinjo decided not to prosecute on the premise that doing so would be a bad idea considering that the oncoming assault is several hours away. Lesser of two evils. Remember, by AC laws, Roy must be tried and convicted before he can be sentenced. If Hinjo were to try to arrest and try Roy, he would be wasting valuable prepration time, especially now that Roy has shown he's going to invest quite a bit of time and energy into attempting to beat the system. Belkar, on the other hand, was already at the sentencing phase of his trial. It did not take an inordinate amount of time to factor this attempt to game the system into his sentence (and again, this method of sentencing is not unethical/illegal simply because US laws prevent this method).

Alternative explanation: Hinjo could have just as easily factored in intent. From Hinjo's point of view, Roy tried to game the system out of loyalty to Belkar. Belkar went along with it because it benefited himself.

[Lizard Lord]

No he had a fake trial for a crime he didn't commit, unless of cause you think that "standing in the general vicinity of people who accidentally threaten the structural integrity if the universe" is a crime, which considering how flagrantly unjust such a law would be seems rather unlikely to be the law in a goodly aligned city.



He helped Elan get there. He was guilty of being an accessory.

[GoC]

Tokiko Mima (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/member.php?u=19543): I would like to apologize for the insult. It was stupid and childish and won't happen again.

[Lizard Lord]

To many of the posters here: I wasn't aware that there were so many experts in Azure City laws. Cause you do realize that the laws of Azure City and the Oots world could be VERY different from real world laws right?

So unless you manage to travel to a fictional nation to study law there, quoting real world laws seems pretty pointless to me.

[Luvlein]

On a less heated topic, I noticed that Hinjo said he would have his wizards (plural) remove the MoJ after the fight. Does that mean that perhaps the MoJ is a house-ruled ritual spell and that the sum of the wizards' caster levels determines whether it can be removed? If so, that might explain why Belkar wasn't able to find a wizard to remove it. It would also complicate any attempts on Belkar's part to remove the MoJ by ambushing a wizard. (And something tells me Belkar lacks the INT, WIS, and/or Knowledge (Arcana) ranks to figure out on his own that he needs multiple wizards to remove the MoJ.)
If that is the case, Belkar may be out of luck; I suspect that most of Azure City's wizards will die in the battle with Redcloak's army.

[Silverlocke980]

Pretty awesome!

[BelkarFan]

I just got it. It took me a while but I think I've finally figured out the reasons behind all of this. It would sure have helped me enjoy the comic if I'd seen this immediately.

In my previous posts I was wrong about some things and right about others.

I was right that Roy was not trying to trick Hinjo by hoping that Hinjo would not do the math: 4 - 5 = -1. Hinjo should not have taken Belkar's -5 into account in the sentencing. That's because -5 is not some trickery to get Belkar out early; it is his just reward for defending the city and so that part of the sentencing takes care of itself. Hinjo certainly should not increase Belkar's sentence because Belkar is defending the city, that would be the opposite of justice.

The whole point of this comic was that 4 year minimum sentence and an unexplained assumption about why and when people are given minimum sentences for crimes.

The idea is that people are given lighter punishments when they feel guilty about what they have done. These are the sort of people that turn themselves in to the police and plead guilty in court. It means that they regret what they have done and that usually causes the courts to go easy on them. Roy had a justified expectation that if Belkar pled guilty, he would get the minimum sentence.

Judging by Hinjo's comment, Belkar really would have gotten the minimum sentence for pleading guilty.

The reason that Belkar got 6 years instead of 4 has nothing to do with the fact that a 4 year sentence would keep Belkar out of jail entirely. The only reason Belkar did not get the minimum sentence is that Belkar plead guilty for reasons other than because he wanted to be convicted.

Lawful good Hinjo was not trying to cheat Belkar out of his -5 years: the sentence was harsh because Belkar did not have remorse for his crimes in the way that pleading guilty would normally suggest.

It was the fact that Roy had to convince Belkar to plead guilty that raised the sentence. Hinjo is not such a fool so that (even distracted) he would not have been able to do the math. Roy did not reveal to Hinjo anything that Hinjo did not already know, but if Roy had not explained things to Belkar and Belkar had still pled guilty, then he would have gotten 4 years instead of 6.

Alternatively, Roy could have explained things to Belkar where Hinjo could not hear the conversation, and Belkar would still have gotten 4 years for pleading guilty, since Hinjo would be forced to assume that Belkar was doing it for the right reasons.

That is what Hinjo's comment was refering to. He was very much not saying that Roy shouldn't have revealed the math. Even if we don't have much respect or Hinjo's thinking ability, he surely has some respect for himself.

[MReav]

On a less heated topic, I noticed that Hinjo said he would have his wizards (plural) remove the MoJ after the fight. Does that mean that perhaps the MoJ is a house-ruled ritual spell and that the sum of the wizards' caster levels determines whether it can be removed? If so, that might explain why Belkar wasn't able to find a wizard to remove it.

That's not a house rule. That's using Circle Magic.

[tanonev]

That's not a house rule. That's using Circle Magic.

Ooh, so it exists? :P Sorry, I only know from Baldur's Gate and NWN, and I didn't play either game to completion >.>

[MReav]

Ooh, so it exists? :P Sorry, I only know from Baldur's Gate and NWN, and I didn't play either game to completion >.>

It's a spell casting variant, at the very least found in Faerun. The Red Wizards, Halruans, and Witches of Rasheman are the main users. I couldn't tell you how it works (partially because it may be a violation of the CoC, but mostly because I don't know how it works), but it involves getting a lot of people together to increase the effective caster level of a spell, and apply metamagic feats to it (there's a third thing, but I can't remember what).

The point is, there's a precedent to getting the spell up to some obscene caster level.

[kerberos]

He helped Elan get there. He was guilty of being an accessory.
No he is not (except possibly after the fact). To be an accessory you must have helped the criminal knowingly, and Belkar did not know, and could not possibly have known, what would happen. Hence he is not an accessorry.

[Lizard Lord]

No he is not (except possibly after the fact). To be an accessory you must have helped the criminal knowingly, and Belkar did not know, and could not possibly have known, what would happen. Hence he is not an accessorry.

Fine, he is an accessory after the fact.

Happy now?

[kerberos]

So an analogy to a legal principle is only valid if it uses another legal principle? In that case this is an invalid argument. Words have meanings, you know. (http://www.answers.com/analogy&r=67)
Thank you, but I happen to be well aware of the meaning of the word analogy, you simply misread my comment. Your analogy is not invalid because it is not to another legal principle, it's invalid because you can't compare a glib saying to a legal principle, at least not in this case, there are all sorts of inconvenient facts and essential principles of justice that makes such blanket rules useless for judicial purposes.


As you know, AC law is not the same as US law or English law. In bringing up contempt of court, I was referring to the logic behind it, not the mechanics of its implementation in modern countries.

In that sense, then, Belkar and Roy are clearly "showing disrespect for the judge"; just because Hinjo didn't follow the procedure outlined in US or UK law does not mean that his method is invalid or unjust.
Granted I might have assumed somewhat greater similarity than one could reasonably assume, however giving people several years in a dungeon for being disrespectful is grossly disproportional, not to forget that any wrongdoing that might have happened is Roy's. Punishing a person for what another man does, is more than a mere procedural difference, it is flagrantly unjust.

[kerberos]

Fine, he is an accessory after the fact.

Happy now?
Not really, that still presumes that Miko had a legal right to arrest him.

[The Extinguisher]

So only guilty people can be arrested now? Any innocent person being arrested his illegal?

The Order of the Stick were the most likely suspects. AC knew they were there when it blew up, so they brought them in. It doesn't matter that Elan actually pushed the button. The entire Order were the most likely suspects.

The trial was fake. The charges were not.