playing a dedicated healer. Favored soul worth while?

[eternal]

So one of my friends who was a dedicated healer in wow wants to play the same role in D&D. (I know it's generally frowned on to play a dedicated band-aid, but that's what he likes) He's kinda wanting to play a favored soul due to be able to cast more spells per day. I told him I figured cloistered cleric would be better due to getting domains and other general goodies such as DMM.

So what is the best way to make a dedicated healer?

[thedmring]

Any great DM will simply tell the person nor to play a healer. It's week compared to other options. I would flat out refuse him. Cleric > flavoured soul any rate.

[heavyfuel]

If he's dead set on playing a healer, a Cleric is so much better than a Favored Soul. Sure the FS has more spells per day, but with the small amount of spells known he'll barely be able to get all of the subtype [healing] spells.

Get him a Cleric with Divine Metamagic Persist and tell him to persist Mass Lesser Vigor every day. Maybe get him the Healing Domain so that his healing spells are stronger early on and so that he can use his domain spells to heal as well.

Again, I only recommend this if he's really really wants to play healbot. Overall, a DMM Persist Cleric persisting Mass Lesser Vigor will be more than enough to fulfill the healing role, only he has more spell slots to use however he pleases

[Agincourt]

Any great DM will simply tell the person nor to play a healer. It's week compared to other options. I would flat out refuse him. Cleric > flavoured soul any rate.

I strongly disagree. A great DM will help everyone have a good time. The OP said he already mentioned that it is weak and the friend wants to play it anyway. A great DM will help him enjoy his preferred role. If the friend has had the situation fully explained, then you are advocating the OP be a jerk, not a great DM.

To answer the OP's question, straight cleric is better for healing. He can spontaneously turn spells into cure spells, but a Favored Soul has to use a precious known spell to even know how to heal. Also, clerics get the same number of spells per day as a Favored Soul once you factor in the domain spell.

[eggynack]

I'd advise cleric into radiant servant of Pelor. It's a path that allows for high quantities of healing, while simultaneously pushing the player down a partially non-healing route, because your normal slots don't heal as well as the domain slots. It's a pretty reasonable way to teach the player the true power of not-healing, without handing him a character that isn't built for healing.

[DevilsAttorney]

I'd advise cleric into radiant servant of Pelor. It's a path that allows for high quantities of healing, while simultaneously pushing the player down a partially non-healing route, because your normal slots don't heal as well as the domain slots. It's a pretty reasonable way to teach the player the true power of not-healing, without handing him a character that isn't built for healing.

That, exactly. I have a friend with an obsession for making healer clerics and he usually uses Cloistered Cleric (for some reason, being the extra domain).

[eternal]

I'd advise cleric into radiant servant of Pelor. It's a path that allows for high quantities of healing, while simultaneously pushing the player down a partially non-healing route, because your normal slots don't heal as well as the domain slots. It's a pretty reasonable way to teach the player the true power of not-healing, without handing him a character that isn't built for healing.

This is perfect. I'll def let him take a look at that. Thanks for that eggy.

Edit:
I'll also mention for him to take the AFC spontaneous domain. That actually should make for a decent healbot. While a cleric is best suited elsewhere I think if that's what he wants we might as well maximize it.

[Troacctid]

Imbued Healing could be a good feat for him too.

[torrasque666]

Or.... there's that class we like to pretend doesn't exist. Might be an option for your bud.

[eternal]

Or.... there's that class we like to pretend doesn't exist. Might be an option for your bud.
What class is that?

[torrasque666]

The Healer, Miniatures Handbook. There was a thread a while back about how it was assigned a bad tier due to bad play. Or something like that.

Basically, take a cleric, strip out the domains and almost all spells other than the conjuration[healing[ ones, add on some armor restrictions, and toss in a unicorn mount.

[eternal]

Now is there a way to turn the healing spells into ranged touch instead of melee?

[torrasque666]

Not to my knowledge, but I'm not good with casters. Just Warforged really.

Scratch that. Ocular Spell/Reach Spell. Won't be easy without access to DMM shenanigans, but still possible. Besides, HEALING EYE BEAMS!

[eggynack]

The Healer, Miniatures Handbook. There was a thread a while back about how it was assigned a bad tier due to bad play. Or something like that.

I'd recommend against it. The healer was assigned a bad tier because of its non-healing capabilities, rooted largely in sanctified spells, and maybe corrupt spells to a lesser extent. The healer is reasonably stuck in tier 5 if they're played as a dedicated healer, which is how a new player would play one.

Now is there a way to turn the healing spells into ranged touch instead of melee?
Well, you can always use reach spell from complete divine. Not a great plan though.

[Rougn]

Any great DM will simply tell the person nor to play a healer. It's week compared to other options. I would flat out refuse him. Cleric > flavoured soul any rate.

I nearly choked reading your comment. That is so wrong it physically hurt me. Only a truly horrible DM would tell a player that and refuse a class for 'being too weak'. Some of the most fun classes in DnD are the weaker ones because its not all about rolling big numbers but you actually feel the danger on your skin as you play and have to think. One of my most favorite experiences in DnD was playing a Fiend of Corruption just because of the role playing and the abilities they have truly made me feel like I was my character. No it isnt the strongest but my DM knew this about my character and the other players characters and worked with it. That is a great DM. Someone who will not limit the players but will work with them so they truly love the world they are in.

That being said I return to the topic of this thread: Personally I always liked having a healer in my party doesnt matter if I am DMing or playing just always liked them. Your friend could go favored soul which is a nice healer with some cool abilities and the go into War Weaver. This covers a big weakness in healers with keeping up with damage/preventing it buffing and spell slots. Instead of casting bull's strength 4 times for the party wasting 4 turns you can simply cast it once and everyone now has it. Saves 3 spells a day. Or if everyone is dying and have abit of cash a stoneskin on the party to prevent death for 2 turns then next 2 turns you are curing them. At higher levels you even get some spell storing and increase the range of all your spells. No longer having to worry about touching your allies to cast spells because touch spells are now short range! Pair this up with your spell storing you can easily Release your spells you stored at the beginning of the day (This costs you your move action) to release up to 4 different spells. Since they are stored you can easily store them at the end of the day to use up your remaining spells slots for that day and they remain until you cast them.

So in case of emergency you drop your move action to cast: Stoneskin Cure Critical Wounds and any other 2 spells you can think of to save the party. And since this was a move action replacement that means you can still cast a spell this turn. So when the party needs him the most he can easily drop of 5 different (or you can still repeat spells.) in one turn. That is crazy at times especially if you help him stack in get away spells or invisibility or even spells to rearrange the battlefield if he took the right classes.

[eternal]

Not to my knowledge, but I'm not good with casters. Just Warforged really.

Scratch that. Ocular Spell/Reach Spell. Won't be easy without access to DMM shenanigans, but still possible. Besides, HEALING EYE BEAMS!

Both look like good options to use when he's not in range. Also I think he's going DMM quicken at least so I'll show him reach which should also work great with DMM. Radiant server of Pelor looks like a decent class for those who love to destroy undead and heal. Thanks for the tip.

[eternal]

I'd recommend against it. The healer was assigned a bad tier because of its non-healing capabilities, rooted largely in sanctified spells, and maybe corrupt spells to a lesser extent. The healer is reasonably stuck in tier 5 if they're played as a dedicated healer, which is how a new player would play one.

Well, you can always use reach spell from complete divine. Not a great plan though.

Even with DMM reach you don't think it'll be worth it?

[ngilop]

Alternatively you can take a look at my re-tooled Healer (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?272245-Healer-Re-tooled-please-critique):)

It has a lot fo the things you are asking for (rangd healing. lots of spells, swift action heals, super heals)

plus it has a good spell list.

[shadowseve]

Alternatively you can take a look at my re-tooled healer (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?283621-Hexblade-re-tool-Please-Critique):)

It has a lot fo the things you are asking for (rangd healing. lots of spells, swift action heals, super heals)

plus it has a good spell list.

that leads to a hexblade retooled :smallsmile:

[eternal]

I nearly choked reading your comment. That is so wrong it physically hurt me. Only a truly horrible DM would tell a player that and refuse a class for 'being too weak'. Some of the most fun classes in DnD are the weaker ones because its not all about rolling big numbers but you actually feel the danger on your skin as you play and have to think. One of my most favorite experiences in DnD was playing a Fiend of Corruption just because of the role playing and the abilities they have truly made me feel like I was my character. No it isnt the strongest but my DM knew this about my character and the other players characters and worked with it. That is a great DM. Someone who will not limit the players but will work with them so they truly love the world they are in.

{Scrubbed}

[ngilop]

that leads to a hexblade retooled :smallsmile:

i relaized that after i posted LOL its now fixed!

[eggynack]

Even with DMM reach you don't think it'll be worth it?
Eh, then you're just paying a big ol' two feat tax instead of the spell level cost. Not to mention the obvious turn undead attempts. Better to just keep close to folks you need to heal, and do something else when you're too far away. Alternatively, you could always give some caster level progression to the hierophant (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeClasses/hierophant.htm), so that it doesn't suck infinite eggs, and have him pick up divine reach.

[eternal]

Eh, then you're just paying a big ol' two feat tax instead of the spell level cost. Not to mention the obvious turn undead attempts. Better to just keep close to folks you need to heal, and do something else when you're too far away. Alternatively, you could always give some caster level progression to the hierophant (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeClasses/hierophant.htm), so that it doesn't suck infinite eggs, and have him pick up divine reach.

I think I'll just stick to the first plan you mentioned. Again you've been a really big help.

[eternal]

i relaized that after i posted LOL its now fixed!

I like the class you built, however; the dm is only allowing official material or I would suggest that.

[thedmring]

I nearly choked reading your comment. That is so wrong it physically hurt me. Only a truly horrible DM would tell a player that and refuse a class for 'being too weak'. Some of the most fun classes in DnD are the weaker ones because its not all about rolling big numbers but you actually feel the danger on your skin as you play and have to think. One of my most favorite experiences in DnD was playing a Fiend of Corruption just because of the role playing and the abilities they have truly made me feel like I was my character.

I am what I am and 9/10 I'm right. D&d is all about TO. what else is there? Seriously how many dragons can you kill or princesses can you save? If a character isn't maximized to it's final extent then it isn't worth playing. A druid with out planar shepherd and a realm like Dal Quor with a fleshraker isn't really playing a druid the "right" way. A cleric who is a healbot is just doin it wrong.

[Thiyr]

So if you want to play a healer and can swing it in your group, you may want to consider the Vitalist (out of Pathfinder). Psionic, but from what I've seen it has potential doing in and out of combat healing, buffing, and potentially having other bits up its sleeve as well. If absolutely nothing else, though, at least try to keep these (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?222365-PF-Mental-Medicine-a-Vitalist-Handbook&p=12203165&viewfull=1#post12203165) considerations in mind when figuring out how to get your heal on. (Link is actually from a vitalist handbook, if you're interested in looking into it as well.)

[Rougn]

I am what I am and 9/10 I'm right. D&d is all about TO. what else is there? Seriously how many dragons can you kill or princesses can you save? If a character isn't maximized to it's final extent then it isn't worth playing. A druid with out planar shepherd and a realm like Dal Quor with a fleshraker isn't really playing a druid the "right" way. A cleric who is a healbot is just doin it wrong.

There is no wrong way to play a Cleric; I played on who had a self invoked vow of peace I didnt actually take the feat because I wanted it for complete story playing reasons. My cleric didnt carry a weapon and refused to harm anyone and yet it was hilarious for myself and the rest of the party for my character to play until my characters reputation in the game grow and people knew who I was. The good aligned NPCs treated me greatly and my words carried great weight (which really helped in diplomacy) and the evil NPCs didnt buy my intimidations or bluffs. It become interesting. In short as long as the party, yourself, and the DM are having fun then thats all that matters.

[eggynack]

I am what I am and 9/10 I'm right. D&d is all about TO. what else is there? Seriously how many dragons can you kill or princesses can you save? If a character isn't maximized to it's final extent then it isn't worth playing. A druid with out planar shepherd and a realm like Dal Quor with a fleshraker isn't really playing a druid the "right" way. A cleric who is a healbot is just doin it wrong.
D&D, as in the game you actually play, definitionally has nothing to do with TO. Theoretical optimization means optimization which is theoretical, which in turn means optimization that you don't put in real games. There is no one right way to play a druid, or a cleric, because if there were, how frigging boring would that be? Everyone would just run around with perfectly cookie cutter characters. What you do, if you really want to be a good optimizer, is you build to a concept, or you build to restrictions, and you build as well within those guidelines as possible. Saying that healers can't ever work is the coward's way out. As for your claim that you are right 9 times out of 10, you are not. I've read pretty much all of your posts, because there aren't many of them, and your words are right only a small percentage of the time. Even when you are correct, you obfuscate your meaning with rudeness, such that any potential audience is insulted instead of enlightened. It's just not a good way to conduct business, especially if you're assured about the correctness of your beliefs.

[AnonymousPepper]

Not reading the rest of the thread, but I Ctrl+F'd it and was surprised not to see it: Mastery of Day and Night feat from Magic of Eberron. (http://dndtools.eu/feats/players-guide-to-eberron--13/mastery-of-day-and-night--1897/)

Yes, it's Eberron-specific - even directly referencing Irian and Mabar. But it can rather easily still be made to fit in any setting including a general one. And it's fantastic for making healing viable. Free maximize on your cure spells is amazing and even to some degree lessens your reliance on Heal spells late game. You'll want Maximize anyway if you're going for a DMM cleric, so this is basically a no-brainer.

Also, might I suggest an Amulet of Retributive Healing from the Magic Item Compendium (https://dangerous-kalamar-4.obsidianportal.com/items/amulet-of-retributive-healing)? This is an absurdly cheap item that, three times a day, whenever you use a Cure spell (if you want to be nice, give a more expensive version to which Heal also applies), you can heal yourself for the same amount that you healed another single target (can't Mass Cure and get a crapton of HP at least). With Mastery of Day and Night this makes it nearly impossible to be taken out yourself by HP damage. Especially in combination with Persisted Vigor-line spells on the party.

Another suggestion is a Rod of Bodily Restoration, also from the MIC (http://www.lby3.com/dnd/index.php/Rod_of_Bodily_Restoration); ability drain is a very real thing and this will let you heal a character's physical ability damage without expending any Restorations on the cheap.

[eternal]

Eggy thinking about one thing. Would you recommend the one dip into hierophant for reach? I'm thinking of that due to battle field control, difficult terrain and such may prevent the dude from getting to us. Only problem is it comes late in the game. Sure there are wands and such, but if someone falls below 0 and are unconscious having someone who can heal at reach might be worth it if he is determined to go that route. Since we'll have a dedicated healer I doubt many will spend as much $$ on wands anyways. Is it really worth losing one caster level?

[shadowseve]

D&D, as in the game you actually play, definitionally has nothing to do with TO. Theoretical optimization means optimization which is theoretical, which in turn means optimization that you don't put in real games. There is no one right way to play a druid, or a cleric, because if there were, how frigging boring would that be? Everyone would just run around with perfectly cookie cutter characters. What you do, if you really want to be a good optimizer, is you build to a concept, or you build to restrictions, and you build as well within those guidelines as possible. Saying that healers can't ever work is the coward's way out. As for your claim that you are right 9 times out of 10, you are not. I've read pretty much all of your posts, because there aren't many of them, and your words are right only a small percentage of the time. Even when you are correct, you obfuscate your meaning with rudeness, such that any potential audience is insulted instead of enlightened. It's just not a good way to conduct business, especially if you're assured about the correctness of your beliefs.

Eggy laying the smack down. :smallbiggrin: I know you're trying to help and stuff but seeing you put her in her place kinda makes my day. I know immature but I can't help it sometimes. :smallsmile:

[Coidzor]

So one of my friends who was a dedicated healer in wow wants to play the same role in D&D. (I know it's generally frowned on to play a dedicated band-aid, but that's what he likes) He's kinda wanting to play a favored soul due to be able to cast more spells per day. I told him I figured cloistered cleric would be better due to getting domains and other general goodies such as DMM.

So what is the best way to make a dedicated healer?

Optimizing a Cleric(natch) or using homebrew and houserules to make dedicated healers and the Healer class less sucktacular.

There's been some recent discussion (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?362711-House-rule-cure-spells-are-swift-actions)of such things here. And this should be of interest (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=12203165&postcount=9) as well.

[eggynack]

Eggy thinking about one thing. Would you recommend the one dip into hierophant for reach? I'm thinking of that due to battle field control, difficult terrain and such may prevent the dude from getting to us. Only problem is it comes late in the game. Sure there are wands and such, but if someone falls below 0 and are unconscious having someone who can heal at reach might be worth it if he is determined to go that route. Since we'll have a dedicated healer I doubt many will spend as much $$ on wands anyways. Is it really worth losing one caster level?
Probably not, unless the dip takes place at 18 or so. You need to get a lot for a CL drop to be worth it, and divine reach isn't a lot. Come to think of it, the best way to pull this off might just be metamagic rods of reach spell. They're in the MIC, page 165, and run you 9,000 for lesser, 32,500 for normal, and 73,000 for greater. They're probably more cost efficient than any other method that's been mentioned.

[eternal]

Probably not, unless the dip takes place at 18 or so. You need to get a lot for a CL drop to be worth it, and divine reach isn't a lot. Come to think of it, the best way to pull this off might just be metamagic rods of reach spell. They're in the MIC, page 165, and run you 9,000 for lesser, 32,500 for normal, and 73,000 for greater. They're probably more cost efficient than any other method that's been mentioned.

Not a bad idea that way they can be used for the times he can't get to us. BTW curiosity is getting the better of me how long have you been playing?

[eggynack]

Not a bad idea that way they can be used for the times he can't get to us. BTW curiosity is getting the better of me how long have you been playing?
Not all that much, really. While I do have some knowledge derived from experience, most of my optimization ability just comes from arguing about stuff a lot, and more recently, from going into deep research mode for handbook purposes. For example, I'm pretty sure that my knowledge of non-DMG metamagic rods comes from this thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?331400-Animate-with-the-spirit-optimization), where ksbsnowowl pointed out the existence of metamagic rods of chain spell, as they apply to animate with the spirit. From there, it was just a short jump to my vague recollection of the existence of this rod, and a subsequent trip over to the MIC confirmed it.

[eternal]

Not all that much, really. While I do have some knowledge derived from experience, most of my optimization ability just comes from arguing about stuff a lot, and more recently, from going into deep research mode for handbook purposes. For example, I'm pretty sure that my knowledge of non-DMG metamagic rods comes from this thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?331400-Animate-with-the-spirit-optimization), where ksbsnowowl pointed out the existence of metamagic rods of chain spell, as they apply to animate with the spirit. From there, it was just a short jump to my vague recollection of the existence of this rod, and a subsequent trip over to the MIC confirmed it.


Interesting, besides druids, you just seem to know a lot about quite a bit of stuff. I figured you played regularly. btw that handbook was invaluable while I was playing a druid.

[eggynack]

Interesting, besides druids, you just seem to know a lot about quite a bit of stuff. I figured you played regularly. btw that handbook was invaluable while I was playing a druid.
Glad ya liked the majig. Should probably actually post it at some point, given that it could probably just keep growing indefinitely. As for the other part of things, I really should get around to it more, but I probably knew more about the optimization side of things than the folks I gamed with even before I actually started playing. It just tends to be how I learn stuff, more focused on abstraction and theory than on anything practical, and driven more by pure knowledge than by the gaming itself.

[erok0809]

Not sure if this helps, but your player could take the reserve feat Touch of Healing, from Complete Champion. It might not be great in-combat healing, since it's touch range and all that, but it does save him (somewhat) from using slots to heal out of combat, if he's not persisting lesser vigor or the like. Hell, even if he is, this'll make it go slightly faster, if you have the time to just keep healing the person. It does have that limitation of only up to half total HP though, which makes it less good. Even still, something worth mentioning.

[Coidzor]

Oh, and if the DM allows it, there's a feat that gives a Draconic Aura that could potentially give the Draconic Aura Vigor(?) that gives fast healing to allies until they reach half HP or half HP +1(I don't recall). The main point of contention is that the feat gives draconic auras but only explicitly gives the ones that were either published at that time or were published in the same book as the feat and doesn't explicitly name the vigor feat.

[eternal]

Oh, and if the DM allows it, there's a feat that gives a Draconic Aura that could potentially give the Draconic Aura Vigor(?) that gives fast healing to allies until they reach half HP or half HP +1(I don't recall). The main point of contention is that the feat gives draconic auras but only explicitly gives the ones that were either published at that time or were published in the same book as the feat and doesn't explicitly name the vigor feat.

yeah either going silver brow human or taking dragon touched. I don't know if vigor is worth the feat or not. BTW I can't find the vigor on pg 86 of the dragon auras. Is it in another book?


Edit:
nvm I found it on phb II 13

[Rougn]

yeah either going silver brow human or taking dragon touched. I don't know if vigor is worth the feat or not. BTW I can't find the vigor on pg 86 of the dragon auras. Is it in another book?


Edit:
nvm I found it on phb II 13

I would say it isnt worth it; not even close too many other more useful feats that could be taken

[Hazrond]

I am what I am and 9/10 I'm right. D&d is all about TO. what else is there? Seriously how many dragons can you kill or princesses can you save? If a character isn't maximized to it's final extent then it isn't worth playing. A druid with out planar shepherd and a realm like Dal Quor with a fleshraker isn't really playing a druid the "right" way. A cleric who is a healbot is just doin it wrong.

Oh god this just hurts the heart to read :smalleek:

[thedmring]

yeah either going silver brow human or taking dragon touched. I don't know if vigor is worth the feat or not. BTW I can't find the vigor on pg 86 of the dragon auras. Is it in another book?


Edit:
nvm I found it on phb II 13

How would fast healing 1 up to half their hit points even be close to worth the feat when you can simply persist lesser vigor mass? Hint DMM persist has other uses too making it much more valuable. People think I'm rude, and well I am. But with thinking like that.:smallsigh:

[thedmring]

Oh god this just hurts the heart to read :smalleek:

Truth hurts.

[eternal]

How would fast healing 1 up to half their hit points even be close to worth the feat when you can simply persist lesser vigor mass? Hint DMM persist has other uses too making it much more valuable. People think I'm rude, and well I am. But with thinking like that.:smallsigh:

{Scrubbed}
Maybe I like to consider all options before making a final decision.(not that this is for me or anything.) I really figured it wasn't worth the feat but I stuck it out there. I ask questions because that and research is how people learn. There is a wealth of knowledge here and I intend on getting the most I can from this forum. Most of the people here are great.

{Scrubbed}

Edit:
Honestly I don't think I do that bad of figuring things out anyways.

[Hazrond]

Truth hurts.

nah this is like the pain of seeing a person who is depressed or insane or something, you want to help them but dont know if you can :smallfrown:

[adriana]

nah this is like the pain of seeing a person who is depressed or insane or something, you want to help them but dont know if you can :smallfrown:

I don't think so. People have tried being and it just doesn't work. :smallfrown:

[Rougn]

I don't think so. People have tried being and it just doesn't work. :smallfrown:

Here is a thought: Maybe you are the problem....

Btw a bard also makes a good healer and buffer if you work it right. I strongly suggest Dragonfire Inspiration if you go that route though

[Hazrond]

Here is a thought: Maybe you are the problem....

Btw a bard also makes a good healer and buffer if you work it right. I strongly suggest Dragonfire Inspiration if you go that route though

Are you sure you are quoting the right person there? :smallwink:

[adriana]

Here is a thought: Maybe you are the problem....

how am I the problem?:smallconfused:

[Rougn]

how am I the problem?:smallconfused:

sorry quoted the wrong person xD my bad meant to quote the truth hurts one

[Hazrond]

how am I the problem?:smallconfused:

i think he may have gotten you confused with the other person, same avatar and all

[adriana]

sorry quoted the wrong person xD my bad meant to quote the truth hurts one

no worries. :smallbiggrin:

[adriana]

i think he may have gotten you confused with the other person, same avatar and all

yeah unfortunately we have the same avatar. However, mine is prettier I think:smallwink:

[thedmring]

sorry quoted the wrong person xD my bad meant to quote the truth hurts one

Every group I've grouped for has loved me. I've sat in the dm chair for a while. You could probably learn from me.

[Rougn]

Every group I've grouped for has loved me. I've sat in the dm chair for a while. You could probably learn from me.

Doubt it considering your views on it :/ the first thing I ever read was Advance Dungeons and Dragons 20 years ago (all three rule books PHB was the first of the three)...Been DMing for 10 years now what you are saying is what lazy DMs do when they do not wish to understand their players characters nor do they want to do their own calculations. It is sloppy and horrible.

[eternal]

Doubt it considering your views on it :/ the first thing I ever read was Advance Dungeons and Dragons 20 years ago (all three rule books PHB was the first of the three)...Been DMing for 10 years now what you are saying is what lazy DMs do when they do not wish to understand their players characters nor do they want to do their own calculations. It is sloppy and horrible.

So I just found this


considering the players consist of my boyfriend, and his friends, and I'm usually dressed almost half naked I've heard no complaints so far.:smallbiggrin:

So I think it's safe to say either she's a troll, or she's really half naked in her group. Either way I wish she'd go away.

[Kantolin]

If you have feats boosting them, the PHB2 4th level spell 'healing spirit' and the Complete Champion 5th level spell 'darts of life' become interesting options.

Alone, they heal for 1d8, but have the advantage of being something you can spend one action on and then they continue to heal for a chunk of time in the future. Thus you can utilize a healing spirit and then also do other things (I like using buffs as well when I'm playing a supporty type).

Between Augment Healing (Complete Divine) and Sacred Healing (From the PHB2, not the Complete Divine One - this feat is strictly worse than Augment Healing but you can use both), you can have a healing spirit that heals for 1d8+8 from range per round, which is pretty nifty at low to moderate levels of optimization. Darts of life, once cast, can have its 'darts' fired as a free action once per round - thus enabling you to heal an extra 1d8+10

An amulet of retributive healing or two (Magic Item Compendium, page 69) would let you heal yourself while also healing other people. An Armband of Maximized Healing (Magic Item Compendium, page 62) is also awesome with healing spirit or darts of life or other healing effects that persist over multiple rounds.

The imbued healing metamagic feat (Complete Champion) can add a 'kicker' to your healing spells, which also can be nifty depending on your domain. If you in fact have the very lackluster healing domain, then imbued metamagic (healing) mixed with the above thing means that each round you have healing spirit up, someone can heal for 16hp and refresh 8 temporary hit points, which is pretty good for level 7. Darts of life is similar, and with both you can as a free action and a non action have two effects go off to different people. Other domains to various things which may or may not be as valuable; look at the effects before making a decision about the feat.

Healing spirit is a generally good target for a lesser rod of extend.

Sadly, the two spells don't come online until level 7, but hopefully the information is of general value.

As two last things, if you do /have/ the healing domain, ask to change 'spontaneously casts cure spells' to 'spontaneously cast from the healing domain' as per the PHB2 alternate class feature (On page 37). The major difference is that this will let you spontaneously cast heal, which is dandy. Heal is awesome. This is not worth taking the healing domain if you didn't have it before, mind you, I'm just assuming a 'cleric who wants to focus on healing' may end up with it. :smallsmile:

Last thing on the cleric angle, for completion more than anything else, another method of accessing ranged healing is the 'Divine Ward' divine feat from the PHB2 (On page 89). Basically, you set up a link with one person, then you can use a turn check to use a healing spell on them from close range instead of touch range. This is almost certainly not the most efficient method of 'heal from range', but there you go. :P

I also would like to second or third the Vitalist class, however. Vitalist is /amazingly fun/ to play, can heal from range, and lets you do creative and tricky things with healing while also having some good buffs (The fighter can drink a potion, and you can transfer the healing to the dying wizard, thus enabling more options there).

It's also simply available on the pathfinder SRD (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/classes/vitalist). I like playing support, and the vitalist is probably the most fun I've had with support in awhile.

Edit: Oh, as a last note. It would be helpful, even for a dedicated healer, to pick up some wands of lesser vigor (Spell Compendium level 1 spell) for out of combat healing. For out of combat purposes, just going 'tap - 11' is much more cost efficient than using spell slots unless you're /certain/ combat is over for the day - and even in those circumstances, memorizing lesser vigor may be more efficient than other options.

(Lesser Vigor gives the target fast healing 1 for 10 rounds + 1 round/caster level. In a wand that's 11 rounds, so that's 11hp back. Not nearly as useful in combat, but out of combat when you have the rounds to spend it's great, and in combat you have your actual healing spells)

[eternal]

If you have feats boosting them, the PHB2 4th level spell 'healing spirit' and the Complete Champion 5th level spell 'darts of life' become interesting options.

Alone, they heal for 1d8, but have the advantage of being something you can spend one action on and then they continue to heal for a chunk of time in the future. Thus you can utilize a healing spirit and then also do other things (I like using buffs as well when I'm playing a supporty type).

Between Augment Healing (Complete Divine) and Sacred Healing (From the PHB2, not the Complete Divine One - this feat is strictly worse than Augment Healing but you can use both), you can have a healing spirit that heals for 1d8+8 from range per round, which is pretty nifty at low to moderate levels of optimization. Darts of life, once cast, can have its 'darts' fired as a free action once per round - thus enabling you to heal an extra 1d8+10

An amulet of retributive healing or two (Magic Item Compendium, page 69) would let you heal yourself while also healing other people. An Armband of Maximized Healing (Magic Item Compendium, page 62) is also awesome with healing spirit or darts of life or other healing effects that persist over multiple rounds.

The imbued healing metamagic feat (Complete Champion) can add a 'kicker' to your healing spells, which also can be nifty depending on your domain. If you in fact have the very lackluster healing domain, then imbued metamagic (healing) mixed with the above thing means that each round you have healing spirit up, someone can heal for 16hp and refresh 8 temporary hit points, which is pretty good for level 7. Darts of life is similar, and with both you can as a free action and a non action have two effects go off to different people. Other domains to various things which may or may not be as valuable; look at the effects before making a decision about the feat.

Healing spirit is a generally good target for a lesser rod of extend.

Sadly, the two spells don't come online until level 7, but hopefully the information is of general value.

As two last things, if you do /have/ the healing domain, ask to change 'spontaneously casts cure spells' to 'spontaneously cast from the healing domain' as per the PHB2 alternate class feature (On page 37). The major difference is that this will let you spontaneously cast heal, which is dandy. Heal is awesome. This is not worth taking the healing domain if you didn't have it before, mind you, I'm just assuming a 'cleric who wants to focus on healing' may end up with it. :smallsmile:

Last thing on the cleric angle, for completion more than anything else, another method of accessing ranged healing is the 'Divine Ward' divine feat from the PHB2 (On page 89). Basically, you set up a link with one person, then you can use a turn check to use a healing spell on them from close range instead of touch range. This is almost certainly not the most efficient method of 'heal from range', but there you go. :P

I also would like to second or third the Vitalist class, however. Vitalist is /amazingly fun/ to play, can heal from range, and lets you do creative and tricky things with healing while also having some good buffs (The fighter can drink a potion, and you can transfer the healing to the dying wizard, thus enabling more options there).

It's also simply available on the pathfinder SRD (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/classes/vitalist). I like playing support, and the vitalist is probably the most fun I've had with support in awhile.

I'll def look into some of those feats. Yeah I knew about the spontaneous domain which would be awesome for him in this case since he will have the healing domain.

[Coidzor]

These two (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=9678530&postcount=4) posts (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=9676899&postcount=2) mention some feats that may be of interest here.

Sacred Healing from PHB II - +2 HP per die on conjuration healing spells in exchange for a swift action and turn undead use.
vs.
Sacred Healing Complete Divine - full round action + turn attempt to give fast healing to living creatures in 60' burst around you for a short duration.

Sacred Purification from PHB II - Turn undead attempt to heal lviing creatures/damage undead in a 60' burst around you for a low amount of HP. Requires Sacred Healing as a prereq.

Magic of the Land (Races of the Wild, p. 152) - Either 2 HP/spell level on a non-healing spell or +2 HP/spell level on a healing spell. No necromancy or alignment spells. Healing becomes extra damage against undead.

Augment Healing (Complete Divine, p. 79) - +2 HP/spell level for conjuration healing spells.

Initiate of Ilmater (Player's Guide to Faerun) - Excess healing becomes Temp HP for one hour. Limited to target's HD*3. Also gives 3 spells known.

Healing Devotion (Complete Champion, p. 59) - Give yourself or another fast healing that scales with your level turn undead + 1 times per day.

Imbued Healing (Complete Champion, p. 60) - With the Healing Domain, this gives 1 temp HP per HD of the target for 1 hour as a rider effect on any conjuration healing spell level 1-9.

Pool of Healing (ACF (http://community.wizards.com/forum/previous-editions-character-optimization/threads/1151316), Complete Champion, p 47) - Get a pool of healing ala Lay on Hands equal to 5*Divine CL+1 in exchange for one 4th level spell slot.

Found This (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=6371.0):

Improved Domain Power (Healing)
Multiple options
ACF: replaces turning
ACF: replaces both normal domain granted powers
Feat [the Improved Power feat from Dragon 342]
Item: 20,000 gp (throat)
Dragon magazine #342, p21
Requires healing domain
Extend range of conjuration (healing) spell from touch to close 1/day/cleric level

Ring of Mystic Healing (MIC 126) seems of interest, might have been mentioned already with the other MIC stuff.

Some tactics and spell selections of potential interest. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=9082439&postcount=5)

Magic of Eberron also gives the Dragon Prophesier feat that allows one to enter a special state X times per day that allows one to take Prophecy's Shepherd for a free quicken on a cure spell 1/round while in that state and Prophecy's Shaper which allows 1 free empower per round while in that state for any spell.

Initiate of Tamara from Dragon Magic gives some spells known and also gives +1 HP healed per spell level of cure spells on good-aligned creatures. Though you need dragonblood subtype to qualify.

[eternal]

These two (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=9678530&postcount=4) posts (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=9676899&postcount=2) mention some feats that may be of interest here.

Sacred Healing from PHB II - +2 HP per die on conjuration healing spells in exchange for a swift action and turn undead use.
vs.
Sacred Healing Complete Divine - full round action + turn attempt to give fast healing to living creatures in 60' burst around you for a short duration.

Sacred Purification from PHB II - Turn undead attempt to heal lviing creatures/damage undead in a 60' burst around you for a low amount of HP. Requires Sacred Healing as a prereq.

Magic of the Land (Races of the Wild, p. 152) - Either 2 HP/spell level on a non-healing spell or +2 HP/spell level on a healing spell. No necromancy or alignment spells. Healing becomes extra damage against undead.

Augment Healing (Complete Divine, p. 79) - +2 HP/spell level for conjuration healing spells.

Initiate of Ilmater (Player's Guide to Faerun) - Excess healing becomes Temp HP for one hour. Limited to target's HD*3. Also gives 3 spells known.

Healing Devotion (Complete Champion, p. 59) - Give yourself or another fast healing that scales with your level turn undead + 1 times per day.

Imbued Healing (Complete Champion, p. 60) - With the Healing Domain, this gives 1 temp HP per HD of the target for 1 hour as a rider effect on any conjuration healing spell level 1-9.

Pool of Healing (ACF (http://community.wizards.com/forum/previous-editions-character-optimization/threads/1151316), Complete Champion, p 47) - Get a pool of healing ala Lay on Hands equal to 5*Divine CL+1 in exchange for one 4th level spell slot.

Found This (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=6371.0):


Ring of Mystic Healing (MIC 126) seems of interest, might have been mentioned already with the other MIC stuff.

Some tactics and spell selections of potential interest. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=9082439&postcount=5)

This is why I love this forum, so much info here. I'll def look at this and make my friend read this thread. :smallbiggrin:

[Rougn]

This is why I love this forum, so much info here. I'll def look at this and make my friend read this thread. :smallbiggrin:

Oh also do not forget to pick up Alchemy as a skill especially if you can use the Herbalism and Alchemy book. Alot of useful things in there for a healer and Alchemy can be used as craft poison as a DC of -4

[eternal]

Oh also do not forget to pick up Alchemy as a skill especially if you can use the Herbalism and Alchemy book. Alot of useful things in there for a healer and Alchemy can be used as craft poison as a DC of -4

what else can I use it for besides the obvious cure wounds and such?

[facelessminion]

While there's been some downright lovely thusfar, I do agree with several other people here: if they truly want to play a dedicated healer, let them play a Vitalist. It is by far the most fun you can have while trying to pull off a full healing job.

[Rougn]

what else can I use it for besides the obvious cure wounds and such?

Identifying poison for 1gp (dc is a 25 or 20 gp for a take 20) which saves a spell slot not to mention you can cure a poison using it trust me you dont want to be the cleric with no spells and the tank dying of poison. You could also argue to your DM a good Alchemy check every night should net you a few different herbs so you can keep a decent supply going without spending money on it. Basically free cures there. But the big big thing is if the healer goes down and he has healing balms and other healing items.

Inside the book Alchemy and Herbalism you can find items like Alchemortar Type VII which give a +2 circumstance bonus towards fire. There are also items that stop aging. The item Entanglobe when thrown makes all plants grow and grapple opponents for 5 minutes or so. There is also Feed of Refreshment which when given to animals (including magical ones) it cures them for 2d8 damage and removes the effects of hard riding for the past 8 hours. So if you need to be in a hurry...

There are just tons of useful items in there that a healer would love to have and most of them are cheap gold wise and do not cost exp to make alot of the time. Just a few skill points in Alchemy can do alot with that book.

[eternal]

Identifying poison for 1gp (dc is a 25 or 20 gp for a take 20) which saves a spell slot not to mention you can cure a poison using it trust me you dont want to be the cleric with no spells and the tank dying of poison. You could also argue to your DM a good Alchemy check every night should net you a few different herbs so you can keep a decent supply going without spending money on it. Basically free cures there. But the big big thing is if the healer goes down and he has healing balms and other healing items.

Inside the book Alchemy and Herbalism you can find items like Alchemortar Type VII which give a +2 circumstance bonus towards fire. There are also items that stop aging. The item Entanglobe when thrown makes all plants grow and grapple opponents for 5 minutes or so. There is also Feed of Refreshment which when given to animals (including magical ones) it cures them for 2d8 damage and removes the effects of hard riding for the past 8 hours. So if you need to be in a hurry...

There are just tons of useful items in there that a healer would love to have and most of them are cheap gold wise and do not cost exp to make alot of the time. Just a few skill points in Alchemy can do alot with that book.

I'll have to look that book up. Is it 3.5?

[Rougn]

I'll have to look that book up. Is it 3.5?

Yes; it doesnt outright say 3.5 but it was published during the 3.5 time period by wizards of the coast for d20 systems. Some DMs allow it (I do because I love the flavor of it) others do not want to deal with it.

[eternal]

Yes; it doesnt outright say 3.5 but it was published during the 3.5 time period by wizards of the coast for d20 systems. Some DMs allow it (I do because I love the flavor of it) others do not want to deal with it.

M Dm is pretty lenient so I'll have to look for it.

[eggynack]

Yes; it doesnt outright say 3.5 but it was published during the 3.5 time period by wizards of the coast for d20 systems. Some DMs allow it (I do because I love the flavor of it) others do not want to deal with it.
If you're referring to alchemy and herbalists, it doesn't look like it was published by WotC, or otherwise directly licensed by them. It is thus pretty definitionally 3rd party. Do with that information what you will.

[Rougn]

If you're referring to alchemy and herbalists, it doesn't look like it was published by WotC, or otherwise directly licensed by them. It is thus pretty definitionally 3rd party. Do with that information what you will.

15. COPYRIGHT NOTICE
Open Game License v 1.0 Copyright 2000, Wizards of the Coast,
Inc. Alchemy & Herbalists Copyright 2002, 2005 Bastion Press,
Inc. System Reference Document Copyright 1999, 2000 Wizards
of the Coast, Inc.

it states Wizards of the Coast in copyright notice 15 :/ I consider that good

[eggynack]

15. COPYRIGHT NOTICE
Open Game License v 1.0 Copyright 2000, Wizards of the Coast,
Inc. Alchemy & Herbalists Copyright 2002, 2005 Bastion Press,
Inc. System Reference Document Copyright 1999, 2000 Wizards
of the Coast, Inc.

it states Wizards of the Coast in copyright notice 15 :/ I consider that good
That just means it was printed under the OGL, which is a thing that literally any book can claim access to if it wants to. This is a book that was neither published nor even endorsed by Wizards, and is very much third party. Folks can make use of third party books if they want, and it's your prerogative if you seek to do so, but that is the thing that you're doing in this case.

[Rougn]

That just means it was printed under the OGL, which is a thing that literally any book can claim access to if it wants to. This is a book that was neither published nor even endorsed by Wizards, and is very much third party. Folks can make use of third party books if they want, and it's your prerogative if you seek to do so, but that is the thing that you're doing in this case.

I understand that; thats why I said if you can use it. That was designed for 3.5 in mind and for my group that is fine

[Coidzor]

While there's been some downright lovely thusfar, I do agree with several other people here: if they truly want to play a dedicated healer, let them play a Vitalist. It is by far the most fun you can have while trying to pull off a full healing job.

Are Vitalists the ones where you can actually, after a certain level, not even have the Vitalist *with* the party, but they can still monitor and heal them as necessary as long as they're on the same plane?


Yes; it doesnt outright say 3.5 but it was published during the 3.5 time period by wizards of the coast for d20 systems. Some DMs allow it (I do because I love the flavor of it) others do not want to deal with it.

Bastion Press published the only one I could find by that name. (http://www.rpgnow.com/product/3122/Alchemy--Herbalists-v35?it=1)

[torrasque666]

While there's been some downright lovely thusfar, I do agree with several other people here: if they truly want to play a dedicated healer, let them play a Vitalist. It is by far the most fun you can have while trying to pull off a full healing job.

Which books is the Vitalist from? The only one I could find was from Pathfinder, and 3rd party at that.

[Pluto!]

It's Dreamscarred Press. Worldthought Medic (http://dsp-d20-srd.wikidot.com/worldthought-medic) is their earlier 3.5 version.

[Thealtruistorc]

If your dm allows pathfinder content, the vitalist class is in my opinion the prime candidate for a healer. It possesses a wide variety of healing abilities, and can use them in a manner that doesn't take up much time or effort.

[facelessminion]

The Vitalist is Pathfinder, but doesn't really take any work to port back... It is also the only class that makes combat healing worthwhile instead of just awful to okay.

[Cyrion]

My solution to the out of reach problem is to have everyone carry a CLW or CMW potion. That way, if a character drops they can be stabilized by somebody until the cleric gets there.

Also remember that if somebody who drops isn't dead, you've usually got enough time to get to them- tactically it's generally bad to have your party members too isolated, so your cleric should only be a round or two away from them.

[Ruethgar]

My favorite healer was a fighter with Chaos Shuffle and drew from a lot of different sources to get Manifest Life, Shield Other and a minor version of Vampiric Touch perverted into an aura at the cost of a bit of health. Technically I could have used the actual Vampiric Touch, but it was a bit powerful with a scalable spell. At any rate, his play style was to drain enemies to mend others while constantly draining everyone to heal himself from casting blood magic and absorbing some of the damage of others while he was on his merry ol' way. However the sheer number of feats required to pull that off made him a one trick pony, a very cool trick, but still.