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View Full Version : Those Mystra fixes the bug of magic well?



With a box
2014-07-20, 09:27 AM
is still there broken spell like shapechange/wish/ice assassin/.... ?

rlc
2014-07-20, 10:19 AM
from the basic pdf:


Divine Intervention
Beginning at 10th level, you can call on your deity to intervene on your behalf when your need is great.
Imploring your deity's aid requires you to use your action Describe the assistance you seek, and roll percentile dice. If you roll a number equal to or lower than your cleric level, your deity intervenes. The DM chooses the nature of the intervention; the effect of any cleric domain spell would be appropriate.
If your deity intervenes, you can't use this feature again for 7 days. Otherwise, you can use it again after you finish a long rest
At 20th level, your call for intervention succeeds automatically, no roll required.
that's probably the closest thing we have to something that's really "broken" (which is a term i hate, because people tend to throw it around too often and apply it to things that don't work exactly how they want them to), but even that has some stuff balancing it out, like the low percentage of failure (less than five percent even at level 19...though it jumps up to a sure thing at the next level) and the thing where you can only use it successfully once a week and if you fail, you can't just keep trying an unlimited number of times.

pwykersotz
2014-07-20, 10:20 AM
Nothing that has been printed has borked the system to that degree yet, no.

There are some very powerful spells, people have pointed to Web and Sleep for exceptional battlefield control.

A Stray Cat
2014-07-20, 11:24 AM
Nothing that has been printed has borked the system to that degree yet, no.

There are some very powerful spells, people have pointed to Web and Sleep for exceptional battlefield control.

Speaking of Sleep... I ran my crew through the first part of the starter set adventure. Sleep was very useful to the party. The ability to pick a point in space allowed the wizard to maximize the effect on just the targets he wanted. The big bad is in the back, and you want to get all the sleep effect on him? Pick the spell effect point of origin to be 20 feet back of him so that only he is in the effect. There was some risk in their minds whether they could take just him out because they didn't know how many hit points he had, but worth it. I don't think the spell is overpowered, but I do think it is tons more useful than it is in our 2e game.

pwykersotz
2014-07-20, 11:50 AM
Speaking of Sleep... I ran my crew through the first part of the starter set adventure. Sleep was very useful to the party. The ability to pick a point in space allowed the wizard to maximize the effect on just the targets he wanted. The big bad is in the back, and you want to get all the sleep effect on him? Pick the spell effect point of origin to be 20 feet back of him so that only he is in the effect. There was some risk in their minds whether they could take just him out because they didn't know how many hit points he had, but worth it. I don't think the spell is overpowered, but I do think it is tons more useful than it is in our 2e game.

That was my understanding as well. I'm glad to hear some feedback on it. My group won't get together to play the starter set until the 25th. :smallfrown:

Held
2014-07-20, 12:43 PM
There's apparently going to be a "Wish" spell in the PHB as a 9th level spell, the use of which makes you unable to cast magic for the remainder of the day.

Merc_Kilsek
2014-07-20, 12:56 PM
There's apparently going to be a "Wish" spell in the PHB as a 9th level spell, the use of which makes you unable to cast magic for the remainder of the day.

You are correct:

The stress of casting this spell to produce any effect other than duplicating another spell weakens you. Until you complete a long rest, you lose the ability to cast spells. In addition, your Strength drops to 3, if it is not 3 or lower already, for 2d4 days. For each of those days that you spend resting and doing nothing more than light activity, your remaining recovery time decreases by 2 days.

Madfellow
2014-07-20, 02:54 PM
You are correct:

The stress of casting this spell to produce any effect other than duplicating another spell weakens you. Until you complete a long rest, you lose the ability to cast spells. In addition, your Strength drops to 3, if it is not 3 or lower already, for 2d4 days. For each of those days that you spend resting and doing nothing more than light activity, your remaining recovery time decreases by 2 days.

Wow. Wizards have been bending reality for decades, and now it's finally learned how to bend them back!

Kuulvheysoon
2014-07-20, 05:28 PM
(In phony Russian accent)

In Soviet 5E, magic bends you!

A Stray Cat
2014-07-20, 07:40 PM
That was my understanding as well. I'm glad to hear some feedback on it. My group won't get together to play the starter set until the 25th. :smallfrown:

I think you'll really enjoy it. It really is ready to play right out of the box. I didn't notice that the starter set pregens were in pdf, but we used sheet protectors and vis-a-vis markers for record keeping. We started off with descriptions, but quickly figured out that using a vinyl map and miniatures would have been a good idea. We didn't get super far, but the wizard is out of spells now. They are a combat away from any kind of rest so we'll get to see how the at-will cantrips work for him. He's already used mage hand in some pretty interesting ways. The cleric has cured wounds on one fighter who also had to second wind when my dice got hot.

Callin
2014-07-20, 08:35 PM
I ran it today as well. Sleep has WRECKED encounters. I mean I lost half my monsters in some cases on the opening turn of combat. Party of Elf Wizard, Elf Rogue, Halfling Rogue, Dwarf Cleric, Dwarf Fighter, Human Fighter. So I added 1 monster to each encounter. Due to bad rolls and poor placement on their part I did kill the Wizard and dropped the Dwarf Fighter 3 times. At Will Cantrips allowed the Wizard to participate every round of combat. Second Wind helped the Dwarf Fighter not stay down. The Cleric was able to heal, melee, range, Jack of All Trades his way through the game and only be low on HP once. The rogues are both Archer Snipers and they get some perfect Sneak Attack shots that eat Hit Points for Breakfast.

They made it to Phandelver and hit lvl 3 today before we had to call it. Hurt and in enemy territory. So far they have all enjoyed it.

Madfellow
2014-07-20, 09:27 PM
I ran it today as well. Sleep has WRECKED encounters. I mean I lost half my monsters in some cases on the opening turn of combat. Party of Elf Wizard, Elf Rogue, Halfling Rogue, Dwarf Cleric, Dwarf Fighter, Human Fighter. So I added 1 monster to each encounter. Due to bad rolls and poor placement on their part I did kill the Wizard and dropped the Dwarf Fighter 3 times. At Will Cantrips allowed the Wizard to participate every round of combat. Second Wind helped the Dwarf Fighter not stay down. The Cleric was able to heal, melee, range, Jack of All Trades his way through the game and only be low on HP once. The rogues are both Archer Snipers and they get some perfect Sneak Attack shots that eat Hit Points for Breakfast.

They made it to Phandelver and hit lvl 3 today before we had to call it. Hurt and in enemy territory. So far they have all enjoyed it.

I am so jealous right now, and I'm starting to second-guess my decision to wait for the PHB. :smalltongue:

rlc
2014-07-20, 09:37 PM
it's pretty fun. there's a good balance between bumrush tactics and real tactics, and that's just in part 1 of 4.

HeadlessMermaid
2014-07-21, 12:19 AM
Back on topic, the (core) spells that worry me the most are:

1) Wish. The drawbacks seem harsh enough to prevent abuse (or even use...) in combat unless as a last resort, though using it to cast any other spell appears to be free. It's not in the basic set, we'll wait for the PHB to be certain how it works exactly. For now, it looks very versatile and powerful, but it's not the 3.5 equivalent. Potential problem: can a wizard spam Wish during downtime every few days? I wouldn't like that.

2) Gate. You can use Gate to call a creature from another plane, but you need to know its name, which appears to make it a plot-related function only, or at least that's the intent (I guess). The intent won't be enough if you can just learn convenient names with divinations. The basic set doesn't include any such divinations, but maybe that's something for the Bard. The biggest change is what happens once the creature appears: you don't control it (yay!), it acts as it sees fit. Now, combined with other spells, Gate might be used to control a creature, which is a huge deal since there's no HD cap and no saving throw. From the basic set, only Dominate Monster seems appropriate - a concentration spell which grants another save every time the creature takes damage, so I'm not sure how viable it will be in practice. In any case, Gate seems perfectly fine for now. More material published may or may not make it dangerous.

3) Time Stop. The spell ends if you affect another creature or somebody else's items, or if you move more than 1000 ft away. It looks like you can use it to self-buff, set traps by affecting the environment only, and finish by attacking or fleeing. It seems pretty defensive, and I believe its usefulness in offense will depend on the availability of other spells.

4) Rope Trick. I always thought that this spell + divinations were the most unbalancing spells in 3.5 core, because they allowed prepared casters to actually be prepared for everything, long before we got to demiplane-related shenanigans. Rope Trick isn't in the basic set, does anyone know if we should expect it in the PHB?

5) Divination. If you cast it more than once before a long rest, there's a cumulative 25% chance to get a random answer. Which prevents spamming the spell, which is wonderful.

I'm not worried about Ice Assassin, because I don't expect it to make a comeback. Ever. If anyone knows otherwise, please let us know.

TheOOB
2014-07-21, 01:03 AM
Back on topic, the (core) spells that worry me the most are:

1) Wish. The drawbacks seem harsh enough to prevent abuse (or even use...) in combat unless as a last resort, though using it to cast any other spell appears to be free. It's not in the basic set, we'll wait for the PHB to be certain how it works exactly. For now, it looks very versatile and powerful, but it's not the 3.5 equivalent. Potential problem: can a wizard spam Wish during downtime every few days? I wouldn't like that.



At best you only get 1 9th level spell a day, and I doubt wish can emulate another 9th level spell. It will also likely have an expensive material component.

HeadlessMermaid
2014-07-21, 01:42 AM
At best you only get 1 9th level spell a day, and I doubt wish can emulate another 9th level spell. It will also likely have an expensive material component.
I was referring to using Wish for something other than a spell, which (apparently) will have severe drawbacks:


The stress of casting this spell to produce any effect other than duplicating another spell weakens you. Until you complete a long rest, you lose the ability to cast spells. In addition, your Strength drops to 3, if it is not 3 or lower already, for 2d4 days. For each of those days that you spend resting and doing nothing more than light activity, your remaining recovery time decreases by 2 days.

I don't know if effects other than duplicating spells will be restricted some way. And downtime between adventures has been mentioned here and there ("three months pass..."), during which characters ARE supposed to do stuff. So if the cost of wishing impossible things is very steep during an adventure but trivial during downtime, why don't high level Wizards wish a new plane for themselves every week? That was my concern.

Of course, nothing is set in stone until the PHB actually gets released, and we need the exact text to judge, so I'll be patient. :smallsmile:

Blacky the Blackball
2014-07-21, 05:07 AM
2) Gate. You can use Gate to call a creature from another plane, but you need to know its name, which appears to make it a plot-related function only, or at least that's the intent (I guess). The intent won't be enough if you can just learn convenient names with divinations. The basic set doesn't include any such divinations, but maybe that's something for the Bard. The biggest change is what happens once the creature appears: you don't control it (yay!), it acts as it sees fit. Now, combined with other spells, Gate might be used to control a creature, which is a huge deal since there's no HD cap and no saving throw. From the basic set, only Dominate Monster seems appropriate - a concentration spell which grants another save every time the creature takes damage, so I'm not sure how viable it will be in practice. In any case, Gate seems perfectly fine for now. More material published may or may not make it dangerous.

There has been some speculation that Gate might be overpowered as an assassination spell rather than a control spell...

1) Buff yourself up with protection spells so that you can survive in the Elemental Plane of Fire.
2) Travel to the Elemental Plane of Fire.
3) Use a Gate spell to bring your (unprotected) victim to you - they get no save.
4) Close the Gate spell before your victim has a chance to flee back through it.

Et viola your victim is now stuck on the Elemental Plane of Fire without protection burning to death while you and your mates beat them up.

Madfellow
2014-07-21, 09:03 AM
There has been some speculation that Gate might be overpowered as an assassination spell rather than a control spell...

1) Buff yourself up with protection spells so that you can survive in the Elemental Plane of Fire.
2) Travel to the Elemental Plane of Fire.
3) Use a Gate spell to bring your (unprotected) victim to you - they get no save.
4) Close the Gate spell before your victim has a chance to flee back through it.

Et viola your victim is now stuck on the Elemental Plane of Fire without protection burning to death while you and your mates beat them up.

This would require you to cast Gate twice in a row, which you can't do because you only have one spell slot of that level. Plus, any Protection from Energy spell you cast will (A) require concentration, (B) require a high-level spell slot to protect against the full force of the Plane of Fire, and (C) is dispelled as soon as you take damage, for example if it's not enough to protect from the Plane of Fire or if your intended victim manages to get a shot on you. There are just too many ways for a plan like this to go wrong.

What I'm worried about is the combination of Time Stop and Delayed Blast Fireball. You cast Time Stop, cast the Fireball, and run. As soon as time starts again the Fireball goes off and you're safely out of the blast radius, while your intended victims are helpless without a good Dex save.

da_chicken
2014-07-21, 03:11 PM
What I'm worried about is the combination of Time Stop and Delayed Blast Fireball. You cast Time Stop, cast the Fireball, and run. As soon as time starts again the Fireball goes off and you're safely out of the blast radius, while your intended victims are helpless without a good Dex save.

I think this is a non-issue. Even if DB Fireball didn't require Concentration (which it does) it's level 7, meaning after Time Stop you have at most 3 spell slots to cast it with. That means you get 15d6 + 13d6 + 12d6 = 40d6, so in spending your four highest level spell slots you're able to mimic Meteor Swarm if your cast Time Stop + Delayed Blast Fireball (8th cook 2 rounds) + Delayed Blast Fireball (7th cook 1 round) + Delayed Blast Fireball (7th no cooking). If you happen to roll max on Time Stop and get 2 extra rounds of cooking, you get an extra 6d6, so for the cost of 4 spells you get to improve an existing spell by 25%. And that's if a) you forget DB Fireball requires Concentration, b) your DM agrees DB Fireball can cook in your Time Stop, and c) you roll max on 1d4+1. It's not significantly different than just casting Fireball as a 7th level spell during your last round of Time Stop.