The Master Pickpocket Feat, what is fair game?

[Jowgen]

The Master Pickpocket feat from city of Stormreach (of Lightning Thief fame) allows you to "steal anything from anyone at any time", with the actual text allowing for the use of SoH without provoking AoO, with a +4 bonus in grapples and a -10 instead of -20 when using SoH as a Free action.

The crux is this sentence:
You can take anything the character has on his or her person provided it is not held in hand.

From what I remember, with regular SoH uses, only small things like coinpurses are fair game for SoH (not sure where I read that), but this feat seems to specifically overrule this (?).

What are the limitations/possibilities of this? Can you steal boots, belts, hats, rings, necklaces, goggles, bracers, coats, cloaks, quivers, spare weapons, backpacks, something specific/random from the backpack/a pocket, etc? Would it be a spot check to see things that the target has available for stealing?

And most importantly, what would be the SoH DCs to steal any of this stuff? The only DC I know is DC 50 for a sheathed weapon, which I believe hasn't been elaborated upon since the ELH, and obviously doesn't take this feat into account. :smallconfused:

If anyone has any citations that could help illuminate what this odd little feat reasonably can do, or anything that I could use as a guidline when deterimining what is possible/what the DCs are, that would be great :smallbiggrin:

[Sith_Happens]

"I steal his pants!" (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s4ZeTAfYoY4#t=1m5s)

[deuxhero]

Thing to remember about SoH is there is no actual way to prevent the theft, just notice it.

[Jowgen]

Thing to remember about SoH is there is no actual way to prevent the theft, just notice it.

Actually, the Rules Compendium has a fix for that, where someone that notices your attempt can force you to use Disarm or Grapple rules. It also doesn't have the DC 50 for lifting a sheathed weapon listed, but that might just be the RC ignoring Epic Level stuff?

[deuxhero]

Isn't that still only after they've stolen it though?

[Darrin]

Actually, the Rules Compendium has a fix for that, where someone that notices your attempt can force you to use Disarm or Grapple rules. It also doesn't have the DC 50 for lifting a sheathed weapon listed, but that might just be the RC ignoring Epic Level stuff?

Actually, the SoH nerf in the Rules Compendium was they changed the -20 check modifier to reduce the action to a move action instead of a free action. But this change was only made on the table. It was never mentioned in the text, so it's not clear if the designers were trying to nerf it or just mucked up the table.

As far as "forcing you to use the disarm or grapple rules" goes, it's not clear from the Rules Compendium on how this is supposed to work, particularly if the person doing SoH no longer has any standard actions available that turn. Nor is it explained how "resist" is accomplished... is this the result of a successful Spot check, or does the victim have to deliberately use an action to resist? If so, how exactly is that accomplished outside their turn (when they have no actions), or on their next turn after the SoH has been completed (and thus can no longer be resisted)?

You might be better off just telling the players, "The DM will tell you what you can or can't get away with when using Sleight of Hand."

[Jowgen]

It was never mentioned in the text, so it's not clear if the designers were trying to nerf it or just mucked up the table.

City of Stormreach is the newer book, suggesting they either mucked up or changed their mind, and even if not, the specific text of Master Pickpocket would probably return it to free action regardless in this scenario.

As for the the how the resisting works, I've always operated under the assumption that -if spotted in a reactive fashion- you then simply make a Disarm check instead of your sleight of hand check to see if you can get said item/engage in a grapple, with the new check taking the place of your SoH. Thinking about it now, it does seem a bit strange though that you can potentially turn a free action into a Grapple :smallconfused:


You might be better off just telling the players, "The DM will tell you what you can or can't get away with when using Sleight of Hand."

That is the basis on which I am operating, and am thus looking for any input on which to base my judgements on. Wielded weapons are obviously out. Armor has a Don/Take-off time associated with it, so it's safe. Same should go for shields. Bracers can be armor/shield so I'd probably extend that... But things like un-clapping an enemies cloak to draw it off, undoing and pulling off their belt, or relieving them of their necklace (I think Cityscape mentions garnering Jewlery with a SoH?) seem like entirely feasible things that I should have set DCs prepared for.

And then there is stuff like rings, backpacks, and how the players determine what is there to steal that I'm at a loss at. :smallannoyed:

[Kalaska'Agathas]

"I steal his pants!" (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s4ZeTAfYoY4#t=1m5s)

I once had a DM who had a Master Thief antagonist in her game. This Master Thief was fond of stealing peoples' pants (in the British English sense (that is to say, their underwear)) while they were wearing them, and once tried the trick on my character. The exchange went something like this:

DM: "[Master Thief makes some sort of bold, antagonistic claim.] And roll a Spot Check."
Me: "Ooh, I rolled low, that comes out to a [some number]."
DM: "Ah well, then as he finishes saying that, you are shocked to see him dangling your underwear from a finger."
Me: "Actually, I'm not, because there's no way he has them."
DM: "Do you have some sort of 'anti-Sleight-of-Hand' item that I don't know about?"
Me: "No."
DM: "Then how is it you think he hasn't taken them?"
Me: "I'm wearing a kilt."
DM: "So?"
Me: "I'm wearing a kilt."
DM: "Ohhhhhhhh."

Needless to say the Master Thief never tried that one with me again.



That is the basis on which I am operating, and am thus looking for any input on which to base my judgements on. Wielded weapons are obviously out. Armor has a Don/Take-off time associated with it, so it's safe. Same should go for shields. Bracers can be armor/shield so I'd probably extend that... But things like un-clapping an enemies cloak to draw it off, undoing and pulling off their belt, or relieving them of their necklace (I think Cityscape mentions garnering Jewlery with a SoH?) seem like entirely feasible things that I should have set DCs prepared for.

And then there is stuff like rings, backpacks, and how the players determine what is there to steal that I'm at a loss at. :smallannoyed:

While I can't say how easy or difficult it may be to remove a single piece of armor from, say, full harness, but given the ease with which pickpockets (or stage pickpockets, at least) can remove something like a watch, I'm not sure about saying that Bracers are off limits to SoH. And frankly, given some of the other things you can do with epic uses of the skill and so on, there may be some sense in allowing the removal of armor more quickly than would normally be possible, with a high enough skill check.

[Vhaidara]

I once had a DM who had a Master Thief antagonist in her game. This Master Thief was fond of stealing peoples' pants (in the British English sense (that is to say, their underwear)) while they were wearing them, and once tried the trick on my character. The exchange went something like this:

DM: "[Master Thief makes some sort of bold, antagonistic claim.] And roll a Spot Check."
Me: "Ooh, I rolled low, that comes out to a [some number]."
DM: "Ah well, then as he finishes saying that, you are shocked to see him dangling your underwear from a finger."
Me: "Actually, I'm not, because there's no way he has them."
DM: "Do you have some sort of 'anti-Sleight-of-Hand' item that I don't know about?"
Me: "No."
DM: "Then how is it you think he hasn't taken them?"
Me: "I'm wearing a kilt."
DM: "So?"
Me: "I'm wearing a kilt."
DM: "Ohhhhhhhh."


We were under city-arrest, and were told that if we broke any law we would be executed. Our crusader was walking around with his new healing belt. The GM decided to have his pocket picked. Then realized he only had a Handy Haversack. So the thief stole his Healing Belt. Which caused his pants to fall off. And he failed the check to notice his pants falling off. We were nearly killed for him streaking.

The wort part? This player has used the character in freeform before, and one of his friends is an artist. He had a picture of the character, without pants, on his phone, that he showed us.

The character was a whale man.

[animewatcha]

While I can't say how easy or difficult it may be to remove a single piece of armor from, say, full harness, but given the ease with which pickpockets (or stage pickpockets, at least) can remove something like a watch, I'm not sure about saying that Bracers are off limits to SoH. And frankly, given some of the other things you can do with epic uses of the skill and so on, there may be some sense in allowing the removal of armor more quickly than would normally be possible, with a high enough skill check.

With stage pick pockets, I can see a case for removing things piece by piece. Like suspenders, or grapple versus spot check for a belt buckle. Shake someone's hands to 'loosen' guantlets first before another action to take them.

[Jowgen]

With Bracer's, I suppose I could let it work by requiring one SoH per bracer. Subsequently buckler's ought to be allowed actually, as they're not held in hand and can't be used for Shield-bashes. Gloves/Bracers on the other hand are definitely held in hand.

I do think Armor of most types ought to be out of the question, purely because it takes the owner at least a minute to take it off, 5 rounds if they have help (barring some DC somewhere over 50). Based on this, actually, I think I have grounds to exclude boots, helmets and gauntlets when the enemy is wearing a type of armor that is listed as including those (e.g. fullplate). With other types of armor, it would depend on the helmet and movement mode (e.g. a light helmet with only a single strap fastening it, the boots of a flying/floating enemy).

Lastly, I've checked cityscape, and it indeed states that "a successful DC 25 check can garner a thief some jewelry", which by treasure table definition includes Rings and Necklaces. :smallbiggrin:

Any suggestions how the extrapolate from this to other types of items?

Also, still haven't made any progress on deciding how the PCs can determine what there is available to steal on a given individual :smallfrown:

[Norin]

Also, still haven't made any progress on deciding how the PCs can determine what there is available to steal on a given individual :smallfrown:

What about a combo of spot and appraise checks maybe?
Spot to notice the items, appraise to determine a vague sense of the value of the item in question.

Appraise could work from a DC on the item and you could make a table that gives you a result and how much it is off the actual value.
Very broad terms would have to be used here:
- Worthless
- Has some value
- Expensive
- Invaluable

Or something along those lines?

[Jowgen]

A spot check I can see working (e.g. you noticed there is an amulet in the collar of his breastplate), but the appraise idea I don't think is workable. Regular appraising takes too long, no one ever invests in it, and I don't think they ought to know the value of an item available for stealing just by glancing at it. Knowledges or something like that perhaps, but not Appraise.

What I'd need is Spot DC guidlines for this, just as with the actual SoH checks. :smallconfused:

[Kalaska'Agathas]

A spot check I can see working (e.g. you noticed there is an amulet in the collar of his breastplate), but the appraise idea I don't think is workable. Regular appraising takes too long, no one ever invests in it, and I don't think they ought to know the value of an item available for stealing just by glancing at it. Knowledges or something like that perhaps, but not Appraise.

What I'd need is Spot DC guidlines for this, just as with the actual SoH checks. :smallconfused:

Wait, you don't think people ought to know the value of an item based on making an Appraise (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/appraise.htm) check? The skill which exists explicitly to allow a character to estimate the value of a given item? Yeah, as it stands the skill takes too long to use, but wouldn't it make more sense to house rule a DC increase for appraising an item quickly rather than giving Knowledge the ability to do Appraise's job?

[Jowgen]

Appraise usually takes a mintue while Rules Compedium gives +5 as the increase to instead use it as a full round action. Even the Epic Skill usage of Detecting Magic with it (DC 50) is a full round action. If I were to house-rule a free action appraise DC, the reasonable thing to do would be to base it off SoH, for which it is a +20 to use as Free action, and that is to reduce from standard to free, not from Full-round to free.

The absolute lowest house rule DC mod I could do is + 10, and that is being overtly lenient in my opinion. + 20 might be reasonable when taking what little benefit there would be. At lowest we're talking DC 22 to free-action appraise a common item, 25 for a good item, 30 for a rare item, 35 for an exotic item and finally 40 for a unique item. Stuff worth stealing would fall into one of the latter categories.

No player in their right mind would/should invest this heavily into appraise.

Also, Rules Compedium gives rules for DC 30 Knowledge Arcana or DC 20-30 Barding knowledge (non-actions) giving informations about items, which I think works better and is more useful to the players.

[Lightlawbliss]

...

No player in their right mind would/should invest this heavily into appraise.
I know many players who strongly disagree with you on that.



Also, Rules Compedium gives rules for DC 30 Knowledge Arcana or DC 20-30 Barding knowledge (non-actions) giving informations about items, which I think works better and is more useful to the players.

afb but isn't that for unique items?

[Jowgen]

I know many players who strongly disagree with you on that.

I suppose our personal experiences differ on this, but it is a big world I suppose


afb but isn't that for unique items?

The knowledge arcana one says its most "appropriate" for items that have a "a traditional shape associated with their function", while the Bardic knowledge on is for either legendary or well-known items, ranging for standard wear of well known factions (DC 20), items that are in wide circulation (DC 25) to only known in legend items (DC 30).

So I am very much inclined of going the knowledge route, maybe making allowances for certain knowledges to apply for very appropriate items (e.g. Dungeoneering for a Drow House Insignia). Really, it's more the Spot DCs to notice non-obvious items and most of all SoH DCs for anything that's loosely secured, but harder to get than a necklace (DC 25 if I read Cityscape right). :smallfrown:

[Max Caysey]

"I steal his pants!" (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s4ZeTAfYoY4#t=1m5s)

Ahh good old Journey Quest! The Gamers I've watched that many times... too!