New to D&D 3.5, Need Help with a Cleric

[Off]

Hi,

Just started playing D&D and I have chosen to play a cleric. I am starting at level 5 and have managed to sort out my base stats But i have no idea what spells are good. I think i have the base spells that any cleric can have but then i also have spells linked to my deity? I was just wondering what the best domain spells are and how many i get. I don't really want to be a healer. I think St. Cuthbert looks quite good as i get some damage from the destruction domain, but i have no idea if those spells are good for what they do. Any suggestions?

I should probably also point out that i am only allowed to use info from the players handbook in 3.5 according to my friend who is running it.

[Stella]

A good source for you is the D20SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/). It is a searchable reference tool for all of the public domain D&D 3.5 information.

For example, if you're looking at Cuthbert, and you see that his domains are Destruction (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spellLists/clericDomains.htm#destructionDomain), Domination (not in the D20SRD), Law (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spellLists/clericDomains.htm#lawDomain), Protection (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spellLists/clericDomains.htm#protectionDomain), and Strength (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spellLists/clericDomains.htm#strengthDomain), the D20SRD will probably help you see what benefits those Domains bring faster than the rules books.

As a general rule of thumb, the best domains are those which provide Domain spells at an earlier level than you would ordinarily get them, or which provide spells from outside of the general cleric spell list. More options usually means more power. Another thing to look at is the unique ability granted by each Domain. They can be quite potent.

Breaking down the Destruction Domain as an example, we see that the only unique spell granted is Disintegrate, as a 7th level spell. The Domain power granted is Smite: "You gain the smite power, the supernatural ability to make a single melee attack with a +4 bonus on attack rolls and a bonus on damage rolls equal to your cleric level (if you hit). You must declare the smite before making the attack. This ability is usable once per day."

The Disintegrate spell is quite potent, but you probably won't have access to it for some time. The smite ability is decent if you plan on being a martially focused Cleric, which isn't a bad way to go at all, but it needs to be used carefully to be useful. Save it for the more significant challenges, and try to stack your odds of hitting by having other bonuses as well such as a flanker or combat enhancing buffs.

From the general spell list, buffing is a decent way to go, and it can make you a better fighter than a Fighter. Summoning spells tip the balance of actions in your favor and also help to spread the damage around. Debuffing is also a good option. Just look at Bane (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/bane.htm), for example. It's only 1st level, has a large area of effect, targets only enemies so there's no worries about where your party members are when you cast it, and has a fairly difficult saving throw. A bunch of goblinoids with a -1 to hit will be doing much less damage to your group. As a small bonus effect, any being effected has a -1 on any saves vs. fear, and Cause Fear is another of your 1st level spells. So if you cast it in the throne room of the goblinoid leader and he fails his save, or a few of his tougher guards fail their saves, you can make them run while you mop up the swarm of lesser foes, saving a lot of potential damage.

Read through your spells and see if you can't identify the ones which stand out as having the best effects against a group or a single opponent.

[Off]

Thanks for the help Stella, i am looking through the domains now. The travel looks like fun, but not particularly effective i may end up as a fighter-like character in this party, though i ideally i'd like to be more of a spell caster (any ideas there would be appreciated). My party consists of myself (cleric), a fighter and a rogue, so any recommendations on which route to go so that we don't get stomped would be great.

One thing i am confused about is how the spells work. For example, if i chose Cuthbert, do i get the level 1,2 and 3 spells from each of the domains that he is in per day? Or do i have to chose one for each level from any of his relevant domains, or am i limited to one domain?

Thanks

[torrasque666]

You get a specific spell slot for "domain" spells. While (I believe) you can prepare a domain spell in a non domain slot, you must use that slot for a domain one.

And you get any 1st, 2nd or 3rd spell from the domains that you have chosen, but not from ANY and ALL domains of the god.

Clerics get two domains.

You can prep from Domain A and Domain B.

Trying to figure the best way to put this to be clear....

[Off]

I think the best way for me to work this out is an example. So lets say i take Pelor as my god. Can i take one lvl 1 and one lvl 3 domain spells from sun domain, and one lvl 2 spell from protection domain?

[Pluto!]

Yes.

You can only have 1 domain spell per domain slot, but you can choose that domain spell from either domain available.

[Off]

Thanks for the help. Just looking for a little advice now really. If you look at the classes in my party, does anybody have any recommendations as to which sort of role might be good fir me?I get that i'm supposed to make these choices myself, but i want to make sure i bring something unique to the party while still enjoying myself. Travel domain looks like fun but i am unsure of its effectiveness, abd the strength domain looks fairly powerful, but am i then assuming the same role as the paladin in my group?

Any ideas would be appreciated.

[sideswipe]

travel domain is a solid choice. and if its players handbook only then strength is not too bad either.

there is no reason in a party to not have two people who can hit things really hard. yes concentrate on casting spells as a cleric, but your spells main strength lies in buffs. for just you or the party. you are supposed to be able to just walk up to something after buffing with a spell or two and be as good if not better at taking hits and dealing damage like a melee fighter.

plus your strength domain spells allow you to boost the paladin. as do most of your buffs.
as a cleric yes you can heal, but focusing on that is a bad choice, as the party will view you as a walking bag of cure spells.

[Pluto!]

Travel and Trickery are generally the strongest core domains by a good margin. Teleportation and flight effects just change the game. Plant, Magic and Luck domains are solid as well. When you're looking over domain lists, remember that a lot of those effects are on your class spell list anyway, so however flashy something like Divine Power or Flame Strike might be, picking a domain with them probably won't actually add to your cleric's repertoire.

I love me some Summoner Clerics because it's a really easy way to capitalize on being a full caster, so with core builds, I like a feat progression of Improved Initiative -> Spell Focus Conjuration -> Skill Focus (Knowledge) -> Quicken Spell -> Whatever, and prestige classing into Thaumaturgist and Loremaster as soon as they're respectively possible.

I'm usually less than impressed by beatstick Clerics who use spells to buff themselves. Whacking things just does less than insta-killing individual targets or disabling multiple opponents with spells, and investing either combat rounds or character-building resources in order to whack things competently just makes the deal worse in my eyes. Other people swear by that strategy though, so your mileage may vary.

Generally speaking, IMO the most important spells are those that disable or inconvenience multiple opponents at once and that don't allow a saving throw. Examples are effects like Wall of Stone, which can often be used to channel multiple opponents into situations where they have to fight the party fighter 1-on-1 instead of ganging up on him/you, like Summon Monster for Monstrous Spiders or large creatures who can disable opponents by throwing webs or grappling, so that the party has one less enemy to deal with at a time, or like Dispel Magic, which can turn off multiple opponents' magical gear or effects with one standard action. Choosing spells like those doesn't usually determine much in terms of character-building resources, since Clerics can just pick a new set of spells each morning anyway, but it could be something to keep in mind.

[Red Fel]

Here is a fairly comprehensive guide (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?&topic=420.msg8430) to playing a Cleric. It will give you excellent advice on options for your role within a party, spells and feats to select, and suggestions for equipment and multiclassing.

Due to your book restrictions, I'd advise you to read the guide carefully. Most of the feat and spell selections are labeled with their source - you can take anything labeled PHB (Player's Handbook).

As far as the class goes, Cleric is one of the bipartite entity known as the CoDzilla (the other being Druid); Cleric is a powerful melee-ready chassis with the added ability to cast spells. You get comprehensive access to one of the most powerful spell lists in the game, along with access to almost every spell on that list. In other words: As opposed to the Wizard, who can only know and prepare the spells in his spellbook, or the Sorcerer, who can only cast from a limited selection of spells known, you can cast any spell on the Cleric list, provided they are not barred by your alignment. (You still have to prepare them in advance, but small price to pay.) This is on top of a chassis that can use simple weapons and any armor, and has a better BAB than most casters. (Also, once you get Righteous Power, you have the best BAB possible. Yay!)

In short, you can be pretty much anything you want to be. So feel free to revel a bit in that freedom.

And don't let people make you into a healbot. Clerics are so much more than a walking band-aid.

[Off]

Really appreciate the help guys, i was wondering which feats you would recommend? I have decided i want 'Improved Initiative', but as a 5th level human i have 2 extra feats to use and i cant decide. I would have thought that improved turning is a good choice but i am unsure how much turning actually comes up, and i also have a paladin in my squad so the feat may be wasted? I could use my extra point at level 4 in Strength to allow me to take power attack, but i don't know if i want to switch out my attack bonus. Any thoughts?

[Eldariel]

Power Attack isn't bad for a Cleric (depends on how martial you are, really). There's a lot of spells buffing your To Hit in the game. If you have the Intelligence, Combat Expertise -> Improved Trip is nice. Other than that, Extend Spell can be useful for your buff spells, and on level 9 you want Quicken Spell (Quicken Divine Favor = great). There's a lot of good Craft-feats too if your campaign allows some downtime. Craft Wondrous Items really improves item availability and how cheap you can get good stuff for the party. Craft Magic Arms & Armor is pretty good too.

And you don't have a Wizard? Definitely take Travel. Your party will want to be able to Teleport around later and you're the only one who can do that. Also note that while you can prepare each Domain-spell once per day, items called Pearls of Power (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#pearlofPower) enable you to reprepare and recast even a domain spell. You can also prepare a lower level Domain spell in a higher level slot. This way you can eventually prepare multiple Teleports when need be. Trickery would be nice too - Rogues love Invisibility for instance.

[Off]

Making a lot of progress now. Just one last thing i want to ask about. I need to chose my starting armor and weapons. My friend who is running it says i can start with scale mail at best so i assume i should take that. But as for weapons i am lost, do i want a two-handed for extra damage, or do i want a one- handed as well as a shield for extra AC to let me sponge a few more hits? And which weapons in those categories do i want? I went for the god of travel if that effects it at all, and the only feat i am set on is improved initiative. (Though i like the look of power attack.)

[Eldariel]

Making a lot of progress now. Just one last thing i want to ask about. I need to chose my starting armor and weapons. My friend who is running it says i can start with scale mail at best so i assume i should take that. But as for weapons i am lost, do i want a two-handed for extra damage, or do i want a one- handed as well as a shield for extra AC to let me sponge a few more hits? And which weapons in those categories do i want? I went for the god of travel if that effects it at all, and the only feat i am set on is improved initiative. (Though i like the look of power attack.)

The best armor depends on your stats (in fact, this would probably be easier if you just posted all your stats here). 3.5 Armors (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/armor.htm#armorDescriptions). Generally you want either Chain Shirt, Breastplate or Full-Plate (depending on how much Dexterity you have). If you can only get a Scalemail, your starting wealth must be really low for a level 5 character. Well, it is what it is: basically, get a Chain Shirt or a Breastplate if you can and if you can't, then decide if you want +1 Armor from Scalemail or 10' more movement from light armor (Studded Leather). I'd generally lean towards the movement speed over a single point of AC.

Weapon-wise, generally you want a two-handed weapon for damage, at least later (Longspear is a solid, simple reach weapon). Power Attack is very useful with a two-handed weapon but almost never worth it with a one-hander for instance. Also, you get bonus damage on two-handers if you have a lot of strength (and Cleric-spells often boost Strength, such as Righteous Might and Divine Power on later levels). There are shields with the ability to be Animated (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicArmor.htm#animated), freeing up both your hands for wielding a weapon. It'll be a while before you can get one though. Depending on how good your armor is, you might want to carry a shield (definitely go with Heavy Shield if you go with a shield at all). If your armor is poor (e.g. a non-magical scalemail) and your Dexterity is low, it might not be worth your while. You won't avoid many hits anyways if your AC is like 15 so might as well pick a two-hander to kill enemies before they hurt you.

[Off]

My points to put into the stats are 18 15 15 13 10 7, i think the best order would be wis, str, con, dex, int, cha? Am i then still able to wear full plate later on if i want to?

[Eldariel]

My points to put into the stats are 18 15 15 13 10 7, i think the best order would be wis, str, con, dex, int, cha? Am i then still able to wear full plate later on if i want to?

Certainly, you can wear fullplate anyways. It's more of a question of when it's the best option - higher Dexterity characters generally wear lighter armor since they can't make use of their Dexterity otherwise. But yeah, with such stats you definitely want a Fullplate.

I would consider 15 Strength, 10 Dexterity, 15 Constitution, 13 Intelligence, 18 Wisdom, 7 Charisma. This has the advantage of opening up the "Combat Expertise"-feat line to you (and getting you some skillpoints; Clerics have a horrible dearth for those). I would also ask if I can start middle-aged; that would put you at -1 all physical, +1 all mental stats. 14 Strength, 9 Dexterity, 14 Constitution, 14 Intelligence, 19 Wisdom, 8 Charisma. Also, characters should get one boost to any stat on level 4. Since you start at level 5 I can but imagine you should be able to use that too, so you could boost your Wisdom to 20.

This would end with 14 Strength, 9 Dexterity, 14 Constitution, 14 Intelligence, 20 Wisdom and 8 Charisma - overall, a very reasonable set. Really, stat-wise the only question is if you want 13 Dexterity or 13 Intelligence. Intelligence would give you option to take Improved Trip (a great feat particularly once you get your Strength-boosting spells; tripping enemies and whacking them up the head is very efficient, not to mention satisfying) and give you more skill points each level while Dexterity would improve your Initiative and AC, and any ranged weapons you might use (though you probably shouldn't use them too often since your To hit with ranged weapons is going to be poor).


Oh, key piece of advice for Clerics: You only have so many spellslots even with high Wisdom. Don't use them all for healing. Get a Wand of Cure Light Wounds (750gp for Caster Level 1) instead and use that for healing out of combat. This way you don't have to use spellslots to heal except in emergencies (an emergency = someone dies otherwise and it's the only way you can save them), which in turn allows you to use your spellslots for combat and to avoid getting injured in the first place.

[Off]

Thanks, that really helped. I may be back later with more questions.

[Stella]

You get a specific spell slot for "domain" spells. While (I believe) you can prepare a domain spell in a non domain slot, you must use that slot for a domain one.

And you get any 1st, 2nd or 3rd spell from the domains that you have chosen, but not from ANY and ALL domains of the god.

Clerics get two domains.

You can prep from Domain A and Domain B.

Trying to figure the best way to put this to be clear....
I think that the D20SRD makes it clear. I've highlighted the specific areas which apply to Off's questions.


Deity, Domains, and Domain Spells

A cleric’s deity influences his alignment, what magic he can perform, his values, and how others see him. A cleric chooses two domains from among those belonging to his deity. A cleric can select an alignment domain (Chaos, Evil, Good, or Law) only if his alignment matches that domain.

If a cleric is not devoted to a particular deity, he still selects two domains to represent his spiritual inclinations and abilities. The restriction on alignment domains still applies.

Each domain gives the cleric access to a domain spell at each spell level he can cast, from 1st on up, as well as a granted power. The cleric gets the granted powers of both the domains selected.

With access to two domain spells at a given spell level, a cleric prepares one or the other each day in his domain spell slot. If a domain spell is not on the cleric spell list, a cleric can prepare it only in his domain spell slot.


And don't let people make you into a healbot. Clerics are so much more than a walking band-aid.
I'm just going to ditto this. Remember that as a good aligned Cleric you can always lose any (non-domain) spell of any level to cast a healing spell of the same level. There is literally no reason for you to ever memorize a healing spell. You will prevent more damage to your party by buffing them or debuffing the enemy than a healing spell will, on average and over time. There may be times when you just have to heal someone to avoid their death, but it will almost always be better for you to look for another way to prevent them from taking damage in the first place. If they are in a one-on-one fight, you might end the fight with Hold Person, for example. That both stops your party member from taking any more damage and wins the fight, which is much better than just healing the player and hoping their opponent doesn't just negate your spell the next time it lands a hit.


My points to put into the stats are 18 15 15 13 10 7, i think the best order would be wis, str, con, dex, int, cha? Am i then still able to wear full plate later on if i want to?
I would not use CHA as your dump stat. As a Cleric you get Turn Undead 3 + CHA modifier times per day, and with a 7 CHA that's a -2 modifier, leaving you with only a single use of Turn Undead per day. Turn Undead is a powerful ability which allows a Cleric to significantly contribute to any fight involving undead. Any time you enter "Ye Olde Mausoleum" (any undead centric adventure) you'll be sorely missing those other 2 uses!

As a 5th level character be sure to add the +1 to any one stat that you earned at 4th level.

And talk to your DM about the starting equipment he is allowing you. At 5th level characters have a significant wealth by level which is assumed when balancing encounters. Encounters are also balanced against 4 players, and you only have 3. Encounters which the average 5th level, 4 person party with standard wealth by level would be able to beat 3 of per day may well be far too much for your group of 3 players with what looks like standard Level 1 starting equipment to handle. It's not just a matter of what kind of mundane armor he is allowing you, at 5th level a Cleric might easily have +1 or +2 armor of any type, as well as a magic weapon and a few miscellaneous items, plus several potions and scrolls.

[Eldariel]

I would not use CHA as your dump stat. As a Cleric you get Turn Undead 3 + CHA modifier times per day, and with a 7 CHA that's a -2 modifier, leaving you with only a single use of Turn Undead per day. Turn Undead is a powerful ability which allows a Cleric to significantly contribute to any fight involving undead. Any time you enter "Ye Olde Mausoleum" (any undead centric adventure) you'll be sorely missing those other 2 uses!

Honestly, Turn Undead as such is pretty weak. It can only hit low power Undead unless you go out of your way to pump it, and Cleric spell list + Paladin already has plenty of anti-undead tools available. If there's a ton of skeletons, it doesn't take long for your party to mace them into submission. Incorporeals, given magic weapons (let alone Ghost Touch), work the same way. And most of the really dangerous undead have lots of HD (Turning doesn't work), Turn Resistance (Turning doesn't really work) or both.

Overall, considering the resources it takes to invest into making it powerful vs. the potential of using those resources elsewhere, unless I knew the game would be Undead-heavy I'd consider Turning tertiary at best. In this party, Cleric is responsible for much of the Knowledges so having Intelligence and skillpoints is really nice, and Wisdom/Strength/Constitution are all more important for the generic combat ability of the Cleric than Charisma. As such, if I had to have a low stat it'd be Charisma. And hell, there's no guarantee you'd face enough Undead to make it worth your while in any case. Going Fey-hunting with the Improved Turning Charisma/Wisdom Cleric of Pelor would just feel silly. Outside the Core-books there are certainly ways to utilize the Turning pool for other good stuff but in Core, it just isn't all that.

[torrasque666]

A lot of people like to use turning for DMM shenanigans though. So the more turning you can do, the more you can DMM. Doesn't necessarily have to be DMM(Persist), but it could be something like DMM(Heighten) if you don't want to overshadow the group.

[Eldariel]

A lot of people like to use turning for DMM shenanigans though. So the more turning you can do, the more you can DMM. Doesn't necessarily have to be DMM(Persist), but it could be something like DMM(Heighten) if you don't want to overshadow the group.

He only has access to Player's Handbook. That means no Divine Metamagic, no Divine Spell Power, no Divine Might, no Divine Anything.

[PaucaTerrorem]

A lot of people like to use turning for DMM shenanigans though. So the more turning you can do, the more you can DMM. Doesn't necessarily have to be DMM(Persist), but it could be something like DMM(Heighten) if you don't want to overshadow the group.

PHB only I believe.

[torrasque666]

Whoops. Missed that part. Yeah, if you only have the PHB, ditch turning. Its not very effective at higher levels.

[Stella]

Honestly, Turn Undead as such is pretty weak. It can only hit low power Undead unless you go out of your way to pump it, and Cleric spell list + Paladin already has plenty of anti-undead tools available. If there's a ton of skeletons, it doesn't take long for your party to mace them into submission. Incorporeals, given magic weapons (let alone Ghost Touch), work the same way. And most of the really dangerous undead have lots of HD (Turning doesn't work), Turn Resistance (Turning doesn't really work) or both.
Please note that this is a 5th level Cleric who is currently limited to "scale mail at best", almost certainly not magical since there's a limitation on armor type at all at his level. The ability to clear the area of a bunch of lower level threats which would ordinarily not be much of a challenge is fairly key in this environment, and Turn Undead doesn't cost any spell slots to use.