Undead hp increase claritfication

[keeper2161]

Ok so i was reading on a thread on how to increase an undead PC's health. One of the comments got me attention. Biffoniacus_Furiou and OldTrees1 comments.

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?339278-D-amp-D-3-5-Increasing-HP-on-an-undead-PC

Get turn into a necropolitan at level 3 by a level 8 Dread Necromancer at a Desecrated altar. The Dread necro has the feat Fell Energy.

So the mechanic as I understand it.

A level 8 DN gets Undead Mastery, which as stated "All undead creatures created by a dread necromancer who has reached 8th level or higher gain a +4 enhancement bonus to Strength and Dexterity and 2 additional hit points per Hit Die."

So that would give +2 HP/HD and +4 to Str and Dex.

Desecrate normally give +1HP/HD to undead created in it's area, but add an altar to an evil god would make it a +3HP/HD

Now adding Fell Energy would give desecrate a +2 to its +1HP/HD before you add the altar and with the altar make it a +6HP/HD.

Now adding everything together would make the necropolitan have at level 3: 1d12+8 HP/hd

First does the Fell Energy Desecrate work? Can you apply the Fell Energy to the spell then add the altar to it make it a +6HP/HD?

Second Is all of this add retroactively? As in if this PC grew in level would it still be 1d12+8 HP/HD

Third OldTrees1's second comment on Biffoniacus_Furiou's comment say he can get 1d12+12 HP/HD. How can he do that?

When they talk about adding INT and CHA to the HP they are talking about this

http://www.realmshelps.net/cgi-bin/featbox.pl?feat=Faerie_Mysteries_Initiate

So what is everyones opinion on this?

[torrasque666]

I think the only problem I can see(granted, its just from a skimming of this) is that the fell energy/desecrate combo wouldn't work like that.

Desecrate states that when the alter is there, the modifiers are doubled. This isn't an outside effect, but rather part of the spell itself. My understanding is that the spell's effects are calculated first and then modified by feats. So it would only be +6 HP instead of +8.

Also, I think when they wrote the Dread Necromancer class, they intended for it only to be used with the Create Undead line of spells. Please note that no-where in the Ritual of Crucumigration is the ritual leader stated to be creating anything. A necropolitan is reborn, not created and probably wouldn't(or shouldn't) benefit from these modifications.

[Silva Stormrage]

Yes fell energy desecrate works, you get to add bonuses in the most beneficial way as a general rule. So desecrate gives +1, fell energy gives +2 and then desecrate doubles the bonus you get (+3) for +6

It should add retroactively to all the HD that the undead character has.

Not sure how he can get it to +12 HP/HD.

And for int to hp its probably that feat, for charisma to HD they might have some way of getting unholy toughness (Probably from the walker in the waste PRC for a free Dry Lich Template)


You can also add corpse crafter for another 2hp/hd as the hp increase stacks with undead mastery.

[keeper2161]

The adding int or cha to hp is through a elven ritual Faerie Mysteries Initiate. Technically anyone can take it as long as they find a person that has already done the ritual.

[torrasque666]

..... and fit the racial and regional prereqs.

[keeper2161]

Your right the Ritual of Crucumigration does say its reborn but the definition of create say to quote from http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/create
first definition: "to cause to come into being, as something unique that would not naturally evolve or that is not made by ordinary processes. "

second definition: "to be the cause or occasion of; give rise to"

But I concede that it would be a DM interpretation but I think I can convice my DM

[keeper2161]

With the race illumian one could argue that they spent time with the elves and took part in the ritual or simply be an elf or half-elf.

[OldTrees1]

Desecrate gives +1hp/HD (x2 when there is an altar).
Fell Energy increases the numerical bonus by +2.
Advantageous order has it be ((+1)+2)x2=+6 rather than ((+1)x2)+2=+4.

Dread Necromancer's 8th level ability works on all undead creation so it gives an extra +2hp/HD (+6+2=+8)
Wizard 1 (Enhance Undead ACF from Dragon Magazine) also gives +2hp/HD for undead raised. (+8+2=+10)

End of RAW.

The Corpsecrafter feat only gives +2hp/HD for undead raised by spells.
Wizard 1 (Enhance Undead ACF from Dragon Magazine) also only gives +2hp/HD for undead raised by spells.
If your DM is flexible, they might consider the Necropolitian ritual as being "raised by spells".
Thus a flexible DM might increase the RAW +10hp/HD to a +12hp/HD. (I wouldn't but ...)

Edit: Corrected with the correction stated below.

[keeper2161]

I wouldn't ask though because in my opinion its not a spell its a ritual.

[Crake]

Wizard 1 (Enhance Undead ACF from Dragon Magazine) also only gives +2hp/HD for undead raised by spells.

The enhance undead ACF from unearthed arcana works on any undead.